Talk:Kannada

Why is article on Unsourced claim of Sanskrit's influence on Tamil present in this site?

In fact the so called Sanskrit word, "Dravidian" is from Tamil word, "Tamizhan", which has been modified by Greeks as per Wikepedia itself! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.244.41 (talk) 06:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

This site is very prejudiced.--125.22.172.37 12:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)Naduvar

Please look carefully. Its is sourced. the citations are #13,14,15Dineshkannambadi 15:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi friends

Hi friends, I have redone the change... If you have any issues kindly discus... I am not here to vandalise the article... IndiWorld 10:32, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Please discuss before making the change, rather then changing and expecting a discussion before a revert. Why is it irrelevant to mention Tamil, but relevant to mention Tulu.Dineshkannambadi 12:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes my friend, I will explain, According to the statement, It says that the TULU language and Kannada Language evaluated about the same time from a proto Dravidian source. So the statement will be like "The spoken language is said to have separated from its old proto-Dravidian source about the same time as Tulu." What is the relevancy in putting tamil there, here you are trying to confuse the readers by comparing the proto-Dravidian Language with Tamil, you can do this in article regarding proto-Dravidian language. You can compare Kannada with tamil directly, it will be very much relevant to the article dinesh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IndiWorld (talk • contribs) 05:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

--IndiWorld 06:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Change

Hi Friends, I have changed the following statement "The spoken language is said to have separated from its proto-Dravidian source earlier than Tamil and about the same time as Tulu.[11]", as follows "The spoken language is said to have separated from its old proto-Dravidian source about the same time as Tulu.[11]", since its totally irrelevant to compare between a proto-Dravidian source and Tamil language and Kannada Language. If so the Source of Tamil Language may be much more Older even than Sanskrit. So, I think its irrelevant to compare it with tamil there. Thanks and Regards...

hi The change should be made because the author wants to implicitly indicate that their language is older than tamil based on the badaga language family tree image of encyclopedia Britannica. The family tree indicates that the proto-tamil-kananda starts to split into proto-tamil-toda and pre- kananda(tamil and kanada started to separate). It does not mean that kanada is older than tamil .It only states that both the lanaguages are from same source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umavivek (talk • contribs) 10:17, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced claim of Sanskrit's influence on Tamil

Dinesh you will have to provide valid sources to back your unsourced claim that Tamil was heavily influenced by Sanskrit. Tamil is a language separate from Sanskrit. As a matter if fact it has been recognized as a classical language along with Sanskrit in India. Is Kannada actually independent of Sanskrit? Can you provide valid referenced sources to prove this? Wiki Raja 04:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the groundbreaking information. Please refer to Tamil Language (citations 37-43) for Sanskrit influence on that language and please refer to Kannada language later today for citation for your next question.Dineshkannambadi 13:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

BTW, citations already exist (citation12-13) for your perusal. There are 9 citations in all, (Tamil and Kannada articles put together) Or do you want more?Dineshkannambadi 13:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Wiki Raja, please try to be less confrontational in your requests for improvement. We are all here to make better articles, and if we work together and try to be friendly even when we disagree, it is a lot easier to do that. - Taxman ^Talk 14:29, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

From what I've read, I can say that Tamil is the least Sankritised of all the major Dravidian languages, followed by Kannada, Telugu and then Malayalam. --Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 05:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

But all the 4 languages are Sankritized to some extent. --Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 08:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Dravidian Civilization template

Why is the template being removed? Isn't it relevant to this article? Kannada is a Dravidian language, a product of Dravidian civilization. --Altruism^{T a l k - Contribs.} 12:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

i removed the statement which says telugu script was derived from the old kannada script. this is a random biased statement with no credible evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.80.70.54 (talk) 20:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

New section

Hi friends, Kindly do a discussion before harshly deleting the content posted by other users. We agree with your intention in mainting the articles integrity and quality, we respect your contribution, but similarly you should also respect others contributions. so kindly do a discussion. Have a nice day, Regards, IndiWorld --IndiWorld 06:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you are trying to add, hars been discussed over and over and you may want to go through the discussions Archive 1 and Archive 2 -- ¿Amar៛^{Talk to me/My edits} 10:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Para on script says "The script itself, derived from brahmi script, is fairly complicated like most other languages of India owing to the occurrence of various combinations of "half-letters"". Is`t there a better way to say this? "Complicated"? syllabic scripts have to be that way.Somebody look in it please. ~~ ~rAGU

Isila

This article too hastily chose to quote an unsubstantiated claim in the media that the word "isila" found in the Brahmagiri edict is a kannda word meaning "to shoot an arrow".

The word Isila in the Brahmagiri edict is known very well to be a town site/place name and not a Kannada word meaning "shoot an arrow" as claimed strangely by Mr. Narasimhachar.

See [[1]] and [[2]] Also some think the place Isila is Siddhapura. Also see [[3]]

In any case the ASI (The Archaeological Survey of India) itself clearly states that Isila was a place name which was "the headquarters of the Mahamatras of Suvarnagiri": See [[4]]

And now for the most important aspect: No way can one claim that "The first written record in the Kannada language is traced to Emperor Ashoka's Brahmagiri edict dated 230 BC". The language was a type of Prakrit. It is not *in* Kannada language. So even if the word "isila" is a Kannada word (which has to be shown first) one can only say: "the first attestation of a Kannada word is found in....". If it is claimed to mean "to shoot an arrow" it is too close to Skt. iSu = arrow and related words.

So this needs a complete change which I attempted now. perichandra1 18:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep your archeological and geograhpical skills out of wikipedia and dont tamper with cited info, unless you want admins to come after your account.Dineshkannambadi 19:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Is this a threat? I will face the admins thanks for your concern. You will have to be reported to the admins I guess for threatening good faith edits. perichandra1 19:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perichandra1 (talk • contribs)

A Kannada politician himself quotes in the Parliament correctly that Isila is a place name :-) : See [[5]] perichandra1 20:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Perichandra1 (talk • contribs)

Perichandra, that was not a threat. Sorry if I sounded a bit rude. Your message caught me at the wrong time. Anyway, it is clear you are new to wiki and are formulating your own ideas what something means based on what some politician said. There are no shortage of places in India whose names are derived from Phrases that mean something. Kolar comes from Kolahalapura. Kolahala means bloodshed, violence etc. Kolar was the place where many battles were fought between Karnataka and TN kingdoms and hence the name. you get the idea? A name of a town can also be an unique word to a language from it got the name in the first place. Having said this, a piece of advice. Learn from your seniors, dont make assumptions, dont do original research.good luck.Dineshkannambadi 20:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Perichandra, do you have a citation which states "isila" is NOT a Kannada word? If so, please produce.

On the other hand, there have multiple references given in the article which say that "isila" is a Kannada word. Also, please see this additional reference, which clearly states: ... scholars have pointed out that the Kannada word Isila is found in Ashoka's Brahmagiri inscription ...

Hope this helps. Let us not get into original research. Thanks, - KNM ^Talk 20:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. According to the book I have here (a paper by Prof. T.V. Venkatachala Sastry, the doyen of Halegannada studies), D.L. Narasimhachar said that the word isila was the Prakrit form of the Kannada word esil, not that it was itself a Kannada word. I'll have to type out the quote, since I can't find the book online:

"Based on the evidence that the Brahmagiri edict of Asoka (250 BC) has the the place-name Isil which is the Prakrit form of Esil, a Kannada word, D.L. Narasimhacar has presumed that Kannada language existed in the 3rd century B.C. He also opined that words like Puhamayi, Vilivayakura, occurring in the edicts and coins of the Satavahana times, are either of Kannada or Telugu origin."[from T.V. Venkatachala Sastry, "Development of Old Kannada Language and Literature" in South Indian Studies, (H.M. Nayak and B.R. Gopal eds), Geeta Book House, Mysore, 1990, pp 828-851 at p. 832]

Prof. Venkatachala Sastry himself took a slightly more cautious view, saying a little lower on the same page that this is a "plausible reconstruction" - but then going on to say that the place names in Ptolemy's geography (c. 140 AD) are the "earliest examples" of Kannada.

Not everybody agrees. Prof. M.H. Krishna, the Director of Arachaeology of the Mysore princely state, was of the opinion that isila was not related to Kannada, but was instead a reference to a place in the north. Again, I'll type out the relevant paragraph, from a different book:

"Brahmagiri which belongs to the Asoka period may be noted here, as one of the earliest centres of Buddhism along with Vanavasi and Mahishamandala. A Brahmagiri Asokan inscription has the northern text. It refers to two places in the north viz., Isila pattana - Isilapattana. Both refer to one and the same place. Hence the place referred to belongs to north India. Dr. MH Krishna, therefore, holds the view that it is not correct to consider isila a Kannada word. It may refer to Saranatha." [from R.C. Hiremath, Buddhism in Karnataka, D.K. Printworld, 2002 at p. 62].

So it seems we have four views (isn't Indology fun?):

• • • D.L. Narasimhachar takes the view that isila is the Prakrit form of Kannada esil
    • Prof. Venkatachala Sastry takes the view that this is a "plausible reconstruction"
    • Prof. M.H. Krishna takes the view that isila is not Kannada
    • And, going by what the article presently says, Suryanath Kamath takes the view that the word is Kannada (rather than a Prakrit borrowing from Kannada).

Perhaps the sentence could be reworded to make it clear that there's a difference of opinion? Incidentally, from this piece it seems that Prof. Venkatachala Sastry takes the view that the words in the Chariton mime are not Kannada (he says "The non-Greek words and sentences in Oxyrhynchus papyri do not appear to be Kannada") - when I wrote the article on the mime, I was for some reason under the reason that he took the position that they were Kannada. Funny, that. -- Arvind 22:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I have already provided a citation for those scholars who claim and do not claim that the passages in the Mime were in Kannada. You may add the opinion from your source too.Dineshkannambadi 22:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that'll be necessary, this article deals with the diversity of opinions regarding the Charition mime quite well - and similar wording regarding the Brahmagiri inscription should be fine, I think. I'm just a little annoyed at myself for misremembering, that's all - I usually tend to have a good memory for these things. -- Arvind 22:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I will reword it this weekend and add more citations for early Prakrit Inscriptions with Kannada phrases etc.Dineshkannambadi 13:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Dinesh Kannambadi, you seem to be one of those Kannada fanatics trying to change the history. 1. Asoka's inscriptions were in PRAKRIT and not in kannada. You have provided a citation from an article again from a group of fanatics who claimed kannada to be a classical langauge. (^ a b c Declare Kannada a classical language. Online webpage of The Hindu) http://www.hindu.com/2005/05/27/stories/2005052703230500.htm This cannot be solid proof for your allegations. 2. How do assume shilashaasana inscriptions are in old kannada though you have specified it resembles close to Tamil. And your citation does not state those inscriptions are in old kannada. 3. Even the brittanica never states that kannada spoken language have separated from its proto-Dravidian source the same time as tulu earlier than Tamil. Kannada inscription are dated only from 5 AD. Dont forget it. http://lrrc3.sas.upenn.edu/popcult/MAPS/soudrav.gif. You are misleading all the readers. Tell me what was the language that was Proto dravidian language.

Some clarifications

Some claims in the lead and History section caught my eye, I hope Dinesh or others who are actively editing this article would clarify them at some point:

• The first written record in the Kannada language is traced to Emperor Ashoka's Brahmagiri edict dated 230 BC

From the discussion in the above section (Isila), one thing is clear: we cannot assert that it is indeed a Kannada word. That aside, even if we assume that it is a Kannada word, it's not clear to me how that makes it a written record in the Kannada language. It gives an impression that the entire edict is in Kannada. It's more appropriate to mention the Halmidi inscription instead of the Ashokan edict in the lead.

DK reply I intented to change this line and include Kannada influence on Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions from 2c. BC (Mahadevan) and also on Prakrit inscriptions. So while the wording will change, the meaning wont.Dineshkannambadi 11:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Careful when you do that... because Mahadevan says the language shows influence of Old Kannada and not the inscriptions. So using it to prove a written tradition for Kannada wont fly, at best it indicates that the language Old Kannada existed around that time. Another issue is using the 2nd cent BCE date, Mahadevan only gives a date of 2BCE-6CE for all inscriptions he discusses in the text (the ones he discovered in his work of over 40 yrs). Nowhere does he mention that all such inscriptions show the influence of old Kannada. Which would put into question the 2nd BCE date for old Kannada influence. Lotlil 13:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

DK Reply I will write exactly what Mahadevan says. And I did not say Kannada's influence on Tamil language proves Kannada's written tradition.Dineshkannambadi 13:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have now a website written by Dr. A.V. Narasimhamurthy that several 2c. BC Tamil Inscriptions exist, very much in the heart of Tamil Country, carrying old Kannada words. BTW, Murthy is the author of "Coins of South India". I prefer to find his book though giving the same information before I load that piece of info.Dineshkannambadi 02:39, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

• However, the archaeological evidence would indicate a written tradition for this language of around 1600 years

I noticed Dinesh's edit summary while changing it from 1550 to 1600, that he's using Kannada wordings in coins c. 400 CE to push this date out. This assertion needs to be sourced appropriately (that the coins are dated to 400 CE, that the legend is Kannada and that this can be taken as proof of a written tradition)

DK Reply I am not trying to push anything. I have provided valid citation in the Coinage section. Nothing more is required. Its your resposibility to prove that Dr. Moraes is wrong in his assesment. The 1600 years is just a general statement because King Bhagirata ruled from 390-420 in two of my sources. In fact I can provide a citation from Dr. Hampana, a well known Kannada scholar that the Kannada characters have evolved from 1900 years. Dr. Jyotsna Kamat also agress with this assesment. Because that was a web citation, I have left that alone and am looking for a book citation from the same author. About the coins, the book clearly says the coins are ascribed to the Early Kadambas (350-525) and the gold coin under question is an abbreviation of Bhagiratha, a King from the Early dynasty. Then he says another gold coin ascribed to his son, Raghu (420-430) bearing Devanagari inscription is available. Under any circumstance, recently, a 5th century copper coin minted by the early Kadambas has been discovered and cited in the article. So, anywhich way you look at it, the 5th century date wont change. In fact my book gives images of these coins, but I can load them into wiki because the book was published in 1931 and may fail wiki requirement of 100 years.Dineshkannambadi 11:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to make sure we aren't synthesising material, inadvertently of course. So, if Moraes says Kadambas issued a coin in 4th cent., fine. If he says that the inscription is in Dev. script but Kannada language, good. Say that. But, using this information to say that this is the earliest record of Kannada writing would be OR (since the source apparently only shows Kannada language existed, nothing about its writing), unless a source can be provided which makes this assertion. I hope I made myself clear. The 5th cent date isn't being questioned, Halmidi proves that already. I wanted to know what prompted the change from 1500 yrs to 1600. Lotlil 13:49, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

DK Reply Lotlil, Moraes does not say the coin was issued in 4th century. He says the coin bear's the name of Bhagiratha. Thats exactly what I have written. But he does ascribe it to the Early Kadambas (4thc-6thc). The coin by Raghu is in Devanagari script. Moraes does not mention what language, which is why I did not add it. But I will verify again. I cant make Kannada older than it is by exaggeration.Dineshkannambadi 13:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, a FA on Kadamba Dynasty is soon forthcoming. Happy reading.Dineshkannambadi 12:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• Kannada has had a significant influence on other Indian languages and overseas cultures

Significant sounds OR and so does impacting overseas cultures. Need some good sources here.

DK Reply This section's first line can be reworded. I will look into this. Again citations have been provided on Kannada influence on Tamil-Brahmi inscriptions, Gujarathi language etc.If you disagree with this assesment, please provide citations.Dineshkannambadi 11:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Lotlil 05:55, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Correction

Hello, I am new to this but I would like to report that there is a mistake on the kannada page. Next to the word kannada, there is a translation of it in the kannada script. This is wrong as it reads as kan-na-da. May not seem significant but it is. Someone please rectify this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.240.218 (talk) 00:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You must be using Firefox. If yes, then go to Regional and language options in your control panel, go to languages tab and click on install files for complex script and right to left languages. You'll be able to read Kannada script properly. Gnanapiti (talk) 01:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)