Talk:Anarchism

Talk archives

If you want to talk about Anarcho-Capitalism (A-C), make sure you take a look at past discussions about it. Same goes for other controversial topics.--albamuth 21:33, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Talk:Anarchism/Archive1 - A-C discussion, music, external links
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive2 - many more external links
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive3 - discussion of disambiguation, various forms of anarchism
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive4 - Doublethink, socialist/communist?, Deplorable!
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive5 - removing A-C, reverts, functioning anarchies, Feb 29 (2004)
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive6 - Anarchy v. Anarchism and POV
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive7 - egalitarianism, anarchy, surrealism, are you an anarchist?
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive8 - coercion, anarcho-fascism, worthless!
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive9 - A-C is oxymoron, proposals, history repeats, truce, coup, truce, anarcho-fascism(A-F)
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive10 - history of article, more allegations of POV, another appeal to save A-F
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive11 - lots of stuff, mostly an edit war about A-C
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive12 - more aftermath of edit war, page blanking, punk rock
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive13 - auto wiki link suggestions, shortening article, anarchists vs police
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive14 - hunter-gatherers, adbusters, template discussion
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive15 - superhuge National-Anarchist troll and response, A-C is an oxymoron, anarchist criteria, page protected
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive16 - Survey and response, CrimethInc, communism, much to read here
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive17 - trolls, more critique of A-C, dictionary definitions, much of it obviously written while drunk
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive18 - disambiguation, 'left' anarchism, NPOV and so much more!
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive19 - NPOV dispute, page protection, more A-C discussion, graphical badness, and Milk!
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive20 - NPOV dispute, page protection, more A-C discussion
• Talk:Anarchism/Archive21 - polls, unprotection, disambig proposals, anti-state stuff, RFC's and RFM's

Summary of Arguments / Proposals

Let me try to summarize the arguments the two editorial factions have made (I invite others to try the same or add to the list, just place commentary afterwards). This is a summary, so try to make each comment/bullet entry as BRIEF as possible (one sentence!) and please do not erase/revise others' entries. Use a comments section below for further discussion, please. Again, this is supposed to be a summary of arguments made, not a section for new ones. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) I'm going to go ahead and edit some of the longer comments (move them to comment section, and put in a one-sentence placeholder) --albamuth 12:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pro Anarcho-Capitalist Arguments

• Gustave de Molinari was first anarcho-capitalist, in 1849

invalid - wikipedia:no_original_research albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid - research by Hoselitz Template:Fn Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

questionable - Molinari was pretty damn close, whether or not he was an ancap per se is open to interpretation. I don't think this is a very important question for this page, though. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

questionable - Given that he never stated as much and predated anarcho-capitalist as such, its a POV matter and not one to be decided by the text of wikipedia Kev 6 July 2005 05:09 (UTC)

• Individualist anarchism will be included as a school of anarchism, and anarcho-capitalism will as well by the same basic reasoning

refuted - individualists were against capitalism and were part of the anarchist movement albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

true since both schools are anarchist (anti-state). Anarchism is compatable with all economic and property systems consistent with statelessness. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

true Even though traditional individualist anarchism opposes collectivist anarchism (left anarchism) it's still anarchism. Template:Fn RJII 02:54, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

false individualist anarchists still opposed capitalism -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

false what CyM said. --harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

prolly not - Individualist anarchism (by which I mean Benjamin-Tucker-ism) is considered "anarchist" by movement anarchists apparently because it derives in large part from Proudhon, which is not really true of ancaps. This is a genetic relationship, so any phenotypic similarity between the two philosophies is a separate question. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

false Individualism opposed institutions necessary to capitalism that are also opposed by all other anarchists other than "anarcho"-capitalists, so the reasons for including individualism amongts anarchist schools do not carry over to "anarcho"-capitalists. Kev 6 July 2005 05:09 (UTC)

• Indiv. were for private property, and so are anarcho-capitalists. Individualists are considered anarchists, so then should anarcho-capitalists.

invalid equivocation, straw man - nobody is using private property / collective property as a qualifying principle. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

irrelevant since anarchism specifies no particular economic system. See previous. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

irrelevant but interesting because traditional individualist anarchists believed that those who opposed private property were not anarchists. The same type of thing is happening with collectivist anarchists and anarcho-capitalists. RJII 02:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid individualists were still anti-capitalist -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

invalid definition of property is disputed. what CyM said.--harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

same answer as the previous question. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

irrelevant private property as individualists upheld it was in accordance with anarchist values, tradition, and goals, private entitlement of capitalists is distinct from this. Kev 6 July 2005 05:09 (UTC)

• X, Y, and Z encyclopedias/dictionaries only say that anarchism is against the State.

invalid - biased sample, perhaps even appeal to unsound authority, certainly historian's fallacy. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid The sample was automatically generated by a search engine. Template:Fn Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid dictionaries are not used to define quantum physics, expert sources are necessary here as well -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

invalid dictionaries are well known for providing very limited definitions of terms. Not all encyclopedias are created equal. Some are more biased then others.--harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

partially relevant - this sort of evidence is part of a larger analysis arguing one way or the other on the question of what the most common English meaning of "anarchism" is. It's important evidence, but not definitive by itself. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid Dictionaries and encyclopedias are not proper material to base an encyclopedia on, though they can be used for putting primary sources in context. Kev 6 July 2005 05:09 (UTC)

• Proudhon/Emma Goldman/Kropotkin were not against capitalism, so thus A/C should be included...

invalid I believe it to be a false premise but have not bothered to dig up the evidence to the contrary myself. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

strawman No one here has claimed that PP, EG, and PK were not anti-capitalist. Template:Fn Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid - contradictory evidence Template:Fn --Bk0 02:57, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid - i know that EG and PK at least were clearly anti-capitalist -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

silly Everything I know about these three people says that they were anti-capitalist. --harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

strawman - What Hogeye said. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

strawman The claim wasn't that they were not against capitalism, but rather that they didn't define capitalism as contrary to anarchism. However, when viewing all the evidence from their texts, rather than selective portions, it is apparent that they did believe capitalism to be incompatible with anarchism. It is likely that they did not say so explicitly because no one at the time claimed otherwise. Kev 6 July 2005 05:09 (UTC)

• The way the "anarcho-socialists" are trying to control this article is not very anarchistic.

invalid - ad hominem albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid Ad hom (circumstantial) if it was used as an argument. We agree on one! Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

invalid no reason needed IMHO --harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid Silly, and founded on a false premise. Kev 6 July 2005 05:09 (UTC)

• Capitalist Anarchism is a 'school' of anarchism

unclear - is the usage of "schools" even appropriate? albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

obviously by definition of anarchism. Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid and a very noteable and influential one at that (all without having to riot in the streets). RJII 03:03, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid it is marginal at best. Template:Fn // Liftarn

invalid - by definition of anarchism, capitalist boss/worker relationship is coercively hierarchal. -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:36, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

invalid - while it is an ideology it is not an anarchist one. --harrismw 04:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid as ad hom - at best an argumentum ab obnoxiousness. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid it is an ideology relevant to the article, but not a "school" of anarchism unless just about every ideology is. And I think Nat put his invalid above in the wrong category ;) Kev 6 July 2005 05:09 (UTC)

• Old versions of the article show strong representation of Anarcho-Capitalism

Probably relatively stronger than recent times, since anarcho-socialists have taken over. Hey, we're back! Hogeye 02:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

??? - A positive rather than normative statement. Incidentally, I suspect that Wikipedia drifts to the left over time as its original editors were weighted toward computer nerds and Americans. - Nat Krause 07:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

who cares? Whether or not it was strongly weighted in one direction or another, it should now be balanced out (and up until recent edit wars by a handful of ideologues it was for the most part). Kev 6 July 2005 05:09 (UTC)

Notes

Template:Fnb (and proven not original research) by the Hoselitz quote above (among other things). Furthermore, there was some agreement earlier to refer to Molinari (and Godwin) as proto-anarchists rather than anarchists - a solution that perhaps everyone can live with. I.e. Gustav de Molinari was a proto-anarcho-capitalist, and should be included in the history as such. Hogeye

Whatever agreement there was must have been limited, I have expressed disagreement form the start that any particular sub-movement should claim predecessors in the general history. The general history should be first and foremost about anarchism in general, and when it lists anarchists particular to any sub-movement it should be without interpretation. Kev 6 July 2005 05:18 (UTC)

Template:Fnb Likewise, even those anarcho-capitalism opposes collectivist anarchism and some of traditional individualist anarchism, it's still anarchism. The reason for both cases is that both traditional individualist anarchism and anarcho-capitalism are opposed to the existence of a state and in favor of voluntary relations between individuals. RJII

None of the anarchists who came before anarcho-capitalism considered capitalist relations to be voluntary. Kev 6 July 2005 05:18 (UTC)

Template:Fnb The sample was automatically generated by a search engine. I obviously had no control over it. The argument that you should ignore dictionaries and encyclopedias and even past anarchist luminaries and, instead, take a poll, is ... not good scholarship. Hogeye

No one has suggested that past anarchists be ignored, nor even that dictionaries should be ignored. Past anarchists should be referanced, dictionaries should not be used as a basis for an encyclopedia, which should prefer primary sources. Kev 6 July 2005 05:18 (UTC)

Template:Fnb The claim is: they defined anarchism as anti-statist, not as anti-capitalist. This is the third time Alba has demonstated a failure to grasp the difference between giving a definition and propounding one's philosophy. Luckily, PP, EG, and PK had a better grasp. Hogeye

Hogeye is using the absence of evidence against his claim in select passages as the presence of evidence for his claim. This is a fallacy, but even if it wasn't there happens to be evidence in other passages of their text that each individual believe anarchism to be incompatible with capitalism. That they did not state so explicitly in their definitions is irrelevant, they obviously believed it was entailed because beyond their one-liners they said as much. Kev 6 July 2005 05:18 (UTC)

Template:Fnb "...we maintain that already now, without waiting for the coming of new phases and forms of the capitalist expoitation of labor, we must work for its abolition. We must, already now, tend to tranfer all that is needed for production—the soil, the mines, the factories, the means of communication, and the means of existence, too—from the hands of the individual capitalist into those of the communities of producers and consumers." — Peter Kropotkin, "Economic Views of Anarchism" (original emphasis). I'd refer to quotes from Proudhon and Emma Goldman as well but it isn't worth my time. Your argument is absurd and invalid. Bk0

Proudhon was soundly anti-capitalist in his productive period; his later transition to "mutualism"/federalism (and, incidentally, Roman Catholicism) is irrelevant to anarchism. Trying to argue that Goldman and Kropotkin were capitalists is laughable. --Bk0 01:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Template:Fnb From my own experience (yes I know "wikipedia:no_original_research") I can simply count the different types I've met. I have met two CAs, one IA over 500 (at the same time) anarchists (proper) and about 1500-2000 syndicalists (at the same time). That shows how "noteable and influential" that group is. They are about as influential as Flat Earth Society is on modern geology.// Liftarn

Arguments Against Presentation of Anarcho-Capitalism as Anarchist

• Anarchism is against rulership and authority, which implies being against capitalism, as capitalism creates rulerships and authoritarian systems.

valid - not just a modern analysis, but one going way back with anarchists. --albamuth 3 July 2005 23:33 (UTC)

"invalid" - Rehashing the same old shit: The vast majority of dictionaries, encyclopedias, and even anarchist luminaries (Kropotkin, Proudhon, Goldman...) define anarchism as anti-state but not necessarily anti-capitalist. See above for quotations, dictionary lists. Hogeye 4 July 2005 17:47 (UTC)

Invalid. Pure POV. Capitalists don't regard their system as containing "rulership" or "authority", as all relationships are voluntary. On the other hand, capitalists believe that socialists are trying to impose their rulership and authority over others. *Dan* July 5, 2005 23:57 (UTC)

• Anarchism was anticapitalist before Rothbard so that's the way it is

invalid - appeal to tradition albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid - just because the various schools of anarchism in the past were against state-backed "capitalism," it does not logically follow that anarchists cannot favor non-state capitalism. Template:Fn RJII 02:18, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid every major historical movement/revolt under the black flag has been anti-capitalist -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

largely invalid - agree with RJII. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• A/C is an oxymoron because anarchism is anticapitalist.

invalid - the dispute is about whether or not anarchism is to be defined as anticapitalist. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid From a basic definition you draw obvious conclusions. Anarchism is against hierarchy, therefore it will be againstc capitalism. Template:Fn --Fatal 01:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Petito principi Alba is correct. Claiming "anarchism is against hierarchy" begs the question: Does anarchism mean anti-state or anti-hierarchy? Hogeye 02:31, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid It is not rule of anarchism to be opposed to "hierarchy." Template:Fn RJII 02:25, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid a handful of internet sites cannot redefine a global movement -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

valid --harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

definitely invalid - agree with Albamuth. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid How can you be anti-hierarchy but support capitalism. Anarchism is definitely anti-capitalist. Indeed Bakunin himself said: "Freedom without economic equality is nothing but a lie." There you go.--Sennaista 5 July 2005 23:10 (UTC)

• Whether or not they use the word "capitalism," all historical authors but Rothbard are against capitalism as defined by wikipedia.

What about the French physiocrats, and the Economists (Bastiat, Molerini et al)? Not to mention Tucker and Spooner, who had more in common with ancaps than ansocs. Then there's Von Bauerk(sp), Mises, Hayak, and various Old Right folks like Chodorov and HL Mencken and Oppenheimer and ... These guys didn't call themselves "anarchist", but definitely wrote aboout what we today would call anarchist theory. Oh darn, you had me going...

Irrelevant We want to know the definition of anarchism - its essentials and differentia. How "anarchism" was used in the past is not directly relevant. Hogeye 02:32, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Redundant question - same as the first one. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• All other "schools" of anarchism are mutually compatible; A/C is not.

valid Actually all schools of anarchism are compatible with each other in the broad sense, all major things are the same, like the abolition of hierarchy. Template:Fn --Fatal 01:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

false individualists' [are] squarely against the collectivist anarchists and they say so themselves. Template:Fn RJII 02:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

false All schools are fundamentally opposed to the State, ergo compatible to that extent. Hogeye 02:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

valid all schools have their disagreements and fundamentalists, but ancaps are the only ones who draw almost unanimous mutual exclusivity -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

valid all schools accept that they can not force people to live a certain way (that would be heirarchical) --harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

false - It's possibly true that all anarchist schools other than the individualists are compatible (I don't claim to understand their philosophies), and it's possibly true that the individualists are compatible with some or even most other anarchist schools; but I find it very hard to believe that the individualist anarchism is really compatible with every branch of anarchism. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Anarchism is a growing social movement, A/C is not.

invalidWhat's a social movement? If it's rioting in the streets, then no, A/C is not a growing social movement. It's an intellectual one. RJII 02:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

bullshit You haven't compared page hits for LewRockwell.com, compared to, say, Infoshop.org, have you? Hogeye 02:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid The libertarian movement is large and significant, with many publications and organizations. Template:Fn *Dan* 03:29, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

valid handful of websites does not compare to Ukraine, Spain, Seattle and other major historical events and the continuing pace of a global movement -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Ukraine? Spain? Seattle? Other major historical events? Pray tell: to what extent anarchism had any influence on those? In particular: why would anarchists support Yushchenko, a presidential candidate? Spain - which event in Spain in the recent past do you mean? Seattle: stop mingling anti-globalisation and anarchism. Anarchism is just a small part of anti-globalisation; the vast majority of antiglobalists do not oppose the state - on the contrary! Luis rib 21:04, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

come on CyM, histroical events can be used to say that anarchism is growing now. --harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

? Don't know. --harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The revolution will not be televised - How could we possibly know what the rate of growth for either group is? - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The proponents of A/C inclusion are a small number of zealous campaigners.

invalid' - appeal to ridicule albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid - First of all, I haven't seen any evidence that those proponents of the inclusion are anarcho-capitalists. RJII 02:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

true // Liftarn

true -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

true--harrismw 04:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

trivially true - The proponents of both sides are a small number of zealous campaigners. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• This list of arguments shows that the pro-A/C faction is wrong (implied).

invalid - possible argument from fallacy, it's not what I'm trying to do, anyhow. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• "left-anarchism" and "anarcho-socialism(ists)" are neologisms used in an attempt to re-characterize the anarchist movement.

valid - Phrase(s) coined by Wendy McElroy, not used by other idealogues. They aren't even in the wikpedia list of isms. albamuth 05:03, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

invalid - That's preposterous. What evidence do you have that McElroy invented the term "left anarchism"? The term has been in wide usage for a long time. An older alternative term for left anarchism, that's been in use for ages, is "collectivist anarchism" [1] RJII 05:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

true // Liftarn

valid collectivist anarchism and "left anarchism" are not the same, as individualists (who used the term) were also anti-capitalist -- Revolutionary Left | Che y Marijuana 20:49, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

The individualists did not use the term "left anarchism." RJII 23:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Invalid - The first part is true: they are neologisms. I don't see how they are used to re-characterize the anarchist movement, most of which has always been both left and socialist. - Nat Krause 08:16, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Notes

Template:Fnb This is a case of people being stuck in the past and wanting to keep everybody else there. Of course, anarcho-capitalism, is incompatible with "traditional anarchism." But, so what? This article is called "Anarchism," not "Traditional Anarchism." RJII

Template:Fnb By the same logic one could say that a flower is defined as a plant, but it isn't defined as growing in dirt and requiring water, so those things aren't necessary. From a basic definition you draw obvious conclusions. Anarchism is against hierarchy, therefore it will be against, for example, sexism. Capitalism is yet another obvious thing that anarchism is against. Fatal

Template:Fnb You think all anarchism is collectivist anarchism. Traditional individualist anarchism does not oppose voluntary boss and employee relationships as long as they stick to the labor theory of value. Involuntary hierarchy is opposed, of course, but not hierarchy in itself unless you're a collectivist anarchist. Maybe you don't think traditional individualist anarchism is real anarchism? If so, you're wrong. RJII

Template:Fnb I don't know the exact numbers involved, but the libertarian movement is large and significant, with many publications and organizations (though, as others have noted, they're less prone to rioting in the streets and smashing things, which makes them less-often in the news; however, the local newscast in my area yesterday specifically mentioned the Libertarian Party as the instigator of a successful move to get the county to repeal its ban on Sunday liquor sales). Within the libertarian movement, there are more minarchists than anarcho-capitalists, but anarcho-capitalism (often referred to within the libertarian movement as simply "anarchism", since that term has the meaning of "anti-government" with no socialist baggage in these circles) is widely recognized as the most pure and extreme form of libertarianism even if most libertarians decline to go that far themselves. *Dan*

Template:Fnb Actually all schools of anarchism are compatible with each other in the broad sense, all major things are the same, like the abolition of hierarchy. And if you're one of these people that likes to use the word government because you think that excludes other hierarchy, i've got news for you, they're synonyms. --Fatal 01:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Template:Fnb Again, as I pointed out above, traditioanl individualist anarchists do not oppose hierarchy as long as it's voluntary. All anarchism is not collectivism. That, together with the individualists' advocacy of private property rights and a market economy pit them squarely against the collectivist anarchists and they say so themselves. RJII 02:30, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Proposals for Common Solution

• Removing 'Schools' approach in favor of developmental history of anarchism as movement and philosophy.

I like this idea, because I thought of it. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't. Why not have both history, then schools?--harrismw 04:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ToTheBarricades and I had a discussion about this, and it broke down on the question of how anarcho-capitalism should be presented. He wanted no mention until Rothbard (1950s); I insisted that anti-state liberals such as Bastiat and Molinari must be included (1840s). Impasse. Hogeye 04:54, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Simple solution, don't include any sub-movement "anarchists" who existed before the creation of the term they are being filed under. Thus primitivists don't get cavemen, anarcho-communists don't get Zeno, capitalists don't get molinari. All those individuals can expound on these supposed precursors on their own pages, the general page can be left to those precursors which apply to all of anarchism, so unless there is objection we all get Lao Tzu, Godwin, etc). Saves all the fighting, allows for a detailed history. Kev 6 July 2005 05:30 (UTC)

Good solution Never been tried before in a detailed manner, most other proposals have and have failed at some point. It also allows for all movements and sub-movements to be described on the page, and puts them into context at the same time. Kev 6 July 2005 05:30 (UTC)

• Using public survey to settle definition dispute

logical fallacy - argumentum ad numerum even though the anti-A/C side is clearly "winning" albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

logical fallacy - as above Kev 6 July 2005 05:30 (UTC)

• Neutral Disambiguation Page as proposed by Hogeye

pointless - using anarchism (socialist) just replicates the dispute. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand, Alba. It looks to me like the dispute disappears. The ancaps can tweak their Anarchism (anti-state), and the ansocs can tweak their Anarchism (socialist). Instead of agreeing on a definition (ha!), all we have to do is agree not to vandalize the other article. How is this replicating the dispute? Hogeye 02:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1) having "their article" and "our article" is not the correct solution for Wikipedia, which is supposed to be a collaborative project.

2) it replicates the dispute because editors do not want the neologism of "anarcho-socialism" or "left anarchism" used to describe anarchists. --albamuth 16:13, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What the hell; I'll call 'em "libertarian socialists" if that makes them happy. Same thing. But perhaps you underestimate the libsoc's ability to refrain from vandalizing the other article.

Realizing that frivolous POV forks are uncool, Wiki might set some limits as follows.

Forks are permissable when:

1) The dispute is regarding the definition of the article, and not merely on the basis of content.

2) There has been ongoing edit wars and page freezes for over 1 year (or whatever specified time period.)

More experienced Wiki editors may come up with better measures for (2), e.g. based on number or rate of reverts or whatever.

Hogeye 00:06, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

pointless - we already have a well written a/c page. So why bother having another one? --harrismw 04:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Harris, the NDP has absolutely nothing to do with the a/c page. It has to do with the general Anarchism article only. The NDP would point to two articles - one about Anarchism using the broad (anti-state) definition, the other with the narrow (anti-state + socialist) definition - and let the Wiki user decide which meaning to choose. Then, instead of having a permanent edit war, we'd have at most the occasional vandalism of the other faction's article. It solves the problem by giving each faction their own playpen. Hogeye 05:01, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The only people who claim that anarchism is not against all hierarchy are anarco-capitalists. There is already a page describing anarco-capitalism. Thus there is no need for another page. There would be no need for an edit war if you (and others) just accepted that there is a page on anarchism, and a link to something that is simply anti-state. If you have the two pages like you suggest, then there would be a lot of duplication. --harrismw 01:49, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The only people who claim that anarchism is not anti-state are anarco-socialists. There is already a page describing anarco-socialism. Thus there is no need for another page. There would be no need for an edit war if you (and others) just accepted that there is a page on anarchism, and a link to something that is also anti-capitalist. Hogeye 03:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bad idea First, it was tried before and failed. Second, and most importantly, it takes a tiny and controversial sub-movement of anarchism and divides the entire philosophy into two categories for the visitor. This over-emphasizes anarcho-capitalisms relative importance tremendously, and would be as silly as creating a "anarchism (anti-technology)" or "anarchism (anti-property)" POV fork for the other schools (who are less controversial and arguably more significant than AC anyway). Kev 6 July 2005 05:30 (UTC)

• Instead, have Ancap Article, Anarchism article, and a general anti-statism article. Saswann 30 June 2005 16:32 (UTC)

Good idea I would prefer to try the history approach first, but this is also a good approach. Its very difficult to deny or get in an edit war about claims that anarcho-capitalism is anti-state, or that Molinari was anti-state, so it should allow for stability of that article and hopefully take some heat by POV warriors off of this one. Kev 6 July 2005 05:30 (UTC)

Comments

Well, almost every argument made by either side is either fallacious or has been refuted. Where does that leave us? I think arbitration may be next. albamuth 01:06, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let's say that by some chance we come up with a consensus. What does it matter? As soon as we get the article the way we want it, a few new guys will show up that weren't a part of that consensus that don't agree with how anarcho-capitalism is represented. Then all of a sudden there's a lack of consensus and we edit war again. I'm just pointing out the futility of the whole procedure. I say just unlock the article and let it be. Whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and happen over and over and over. Recognize the futility of what we're doing. Don't kid yourselves that we're going to come up with any sort of finality here. All of our edits will be erased an infinite number of times over. Enough is enough. Unlock the article so it can be edited. RJII 02:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whatever solution we come up with together will probably be more amenable to a bunch of FNG's that show up than a permanent edit war. Plus it will have more defenders. --albamuth 16:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are you seriously using "Appeal to Tradition" against the "anarcho"-capitalists? Haven't you been using this logical fallacy as a cornerstone of your own arguments? The fervency of the ideologies on this page, from both camps, will not "solve" anything. Socialisto 20:44, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You might have noticed that I have found faults with the arguments on both sides. My aim was merely to point out that both sides have been making the same weak arguments over and over. --albamuth 05:51, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I added a new proposal with the following rationale:

1. To avoid confusion, we all should use consitent language and follow accepted usage.
2. As it stands now, almost all unqualified uses of the word "anarchism" in wikipedia refers to socialist/collectivist anarchism— even Individualist Anarchism is generally qualified.
3. If we accept the default unqualified term "anarchism" to refer to a philosophy that is anti-state and anti-capitalist, Ancaps aren't "anarchists" by this usage.
4. If an anti-capitalist article exists, it follows that an anti-statism article should as well, since the two philosophies aren't by necessity linked.
5. Since the Ancap definition of "anarchism" is synonymous with anti-statism alone, any relevant Ancap material can be added to that article.

I've been trying to NPOVify the ancap article, and my experience seems to indicate that the whole problem stems from a linguistic dispute over the proper definition of Anarchism. I believe both sides are correct. The English language is not as precise an instrument as we'd like it to be, and any solution is going to be, by definition, arbitrary. I suggest the compromise: Accept the socialist/collectivist defintion of the word "anarchism" as anti-capitalist and anti-statist, and use the more general, accurate, and less confusing term "anti-statism" for the Ancap definition of "anarchism" and allow the anti-statism article be a repository for tracing the history and development of anti-government philosophy in general, leaving this page to trace the history and development of socialist Anarchism. This isn't a matter of one side "winning" the debate, but of establishing a common lexicon where people on both sides might find it possible to write a mutually-agreed-upon articles. Saswann 30 June 2005 16:27 (UTC)

Unprotecting

This article has been protected for over a month, which is silly. Unprotecting. Sort it out by editing and discussion. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 6 July 2005 13:49 (UTC)

Thanks! Hogeye 6 July 2005 15:31 (UTC)

Hogeye, don't overwrite the whole article with your personal version again. Nobody approves of that version except perhaps RJII and Dtobias. --albamuth 6 July 2005 15:41 (UTC)

Hey asshole, don't revert to the POV socialist article. Only socialists approve of that version. Hogeye 6 July 2005 15:50 (UTC)

That's funny, I thought all this discussion was about disambiguation headers and putting 'anarcho'-capitalism in the list of anarchist schools. I don't seem to recall anyone saying that they want your version to replace the current article, either all at once or in chunks. Can you honestly pretend that the last month's worth of discussion didn't happen? Or do you simply not care what anyone else thinks? --albamuth 6 July 2005 16:04 (UTC)

A month of discussion and you don't even know that we've been discussing the definitional issue?? Bizarre. Hogeye 6 July 2005 16:25 (UTC)

I am going to file a WP:ArbReq, in that case, since you persist in being condescending, belligerant, editing in bad faith, and intellectually dishonest. --albamuth 6 July 2005 16:55 (UTC)

An "anarchist" appeal to authority after he doesn't get his way. Caste your eyes upon this specimen.

A month of discussion and Hogeye immediately spams this article with a series of the same edits that have already been rejected numerous times on this talk page and in the article itself. The point of protecting an article is to give editors time to understand their various positions, but Hogeye has used this time merely to expand on his previous edits by way of a POV fork. Kev 6 July 2005 17:13 (UTC)

Wake up, Kev. There was zero consensus after all that protection. You and I and everyone here expected the inevitable edit war after the socialist faction wouldn't budge in their POV definition of anarchism. Hogeye 6 July 2005 17:42 (UTC)

You expected an edit war? I guess you would, since you clearly are waging a one man war to ensure it. Do you really think people are stupid enough not to realise that you are merely cutting and pasting from an alternate version to avoid the 3 revert rule? Kev 6 July 2005 17:49 (UTC)

I too agree that Hogeye's behaviour is childish. As someone proposed, major changes should at the very least be commented on talk page. Just for the record, the previous version was insofar ok for me. It was a bit POV, but ok. My only request was that some mention of ac should be made - even if only a short one under some heading like "controversial schools of anarchism". BTW I saw a book about History on Anarchism in a bookshop. Didn't have enough money to buy it unfortunately. However, I checked and it did inclue a small chapter on AC (a very small chapter). So that's the kind of solution I would propose for this article. Luis rib 6 July 2005 18:27 (UTC)

I think a small section giving a brief intro to anarcho-capitalism and a link to the article, is fine. Almost all editors seem to think this is acceptable. However, since the purpose of the disambiguation warning is to allow anarcho-capitalists to explicate their view of anarchism elsewhere, while allowing this page to stick with traditional anarchism, I don't think the two should be present together. To state at the top of this page that it concerns the usage of anarchism which is anti-capitalist, and then to introduce anarcho-capitalism as a form of this anarchism, is contradictory. In fact, I don't care if it is the disambiguation or a brief intro to capitalism, so long as it isn't both. Kev 6 July 2005 18:40 (UTC)

I agree with you. Since this is the main article, there should not be a disambig. It should keep the general definition, and that's it. The brief section on AC could then explain how it diverges from the main definition and refer to the AC article. I'm glad we agree on this. Luis rib 6 July 2005 19:05 (UTC)

I agree as well. This is frankly all I ever saw as necessary for the article, as someone sympathetic to AC thought. It is frustrating to be in the middle of this dispute, as Hogeye goes far above and beyond what is reasonable. All I think that is appropriate is a nod to AC's existence in the Anarchism article proper, to show that not all who consider themselves to be "anarchists" are anti-capitalist. The ancap movement is certainly large enough to merit that kind of mention. But for him to try to take over the entire article and rework it into another Anarcho-capitalism is unreasonable and ridiculous. --Academician 6 July 2005 20:05 (UTC)

Academician, you haven't been paying attention. The dispute is about the definition of anarchism, not side-articles. Have you even read the NPOV article? Hogeye 6 July 2005 20:53 (UTC)

I have been paying attention. The dispute is not about the definition of anarchism, per se - it is about anarcho-capitalism's inclusion in the "Anarchism" entry proper. Anarcho-capitalism has its own page in which it is presented as a type of anarchism (much, I am sure, to the left-anarchist editors' chagrin), and this page is even linked to from the disambiguation page at the top. I think this is appropriate separation. What I do think necessary is that anarcho-capitalism be mentioned in the Anarchism article proper, which is something that the left-anarchist editors have rejected in the past but now seem amenable to. It certainly should be pointed out that anarchism is not inherently anti-capitalist from all POVs. But to change the thrust of the primary article on that account is to go too far. Not to mention that most of your proposed changes will never get acceptance from most of the other editors, and therefore it is a waste of your time, my time, and their time to keep reverting it. Just like with anarchism in the Real World(tm), change will never come if you are not practical about the realization of your goals. And come on...show some WikiLove, even if it is not returned. --Academician 6 July 2005 21:48 (UTC)

Academic> "The dispute is not about the definition of anarchism, per se - it is about anarcho-capitalism's inclusion in the "Anarchism" entry proper."

?? Which means it is about the definition per se. The dispute is this: Does anarchism mean anything compatable with anti-statism, or does it mean anything compatable with (anti-statism and anti-capitalism). I prefer to strive for Wiki-truth rather than Wiki-love. I love the truth, but don't even know, let alone love, most of the editors here. I have no reason whatsoever to surrender the definition of "anarchism." Don't worry, several of the NPOV people will be back once they realize that the page is unprotected. And I look forward to a VV, who I see from the history pages championed a NPOV article for a long time.

We've been discussing it for a month. No one is close to changing their mind. We all knew this would happen once the page was unprotected. Enjoy the edit-war, and welcome to Wiki! Hogeye 6 July 2005 22:06 (UTC)

Arbitration

I've filed a request for arbitration: WP:ArbReq. Right now it's listed as involving myself and Hogeye, but if any other editors would like to join in, please go to the arbitration request and add your names/entries appropriately. --albamuth 6 July 2005 17:53 (UTC)

Fun Again

Finally the page protection is off, so we can get back to business again. I was of course hoping that we could avert another edit war with a compromise - the Neutral Disambiguation Page - but most people apparently prefer the fun and games of edit-warring. Cool. I can dig it. Hogeye 6 July 2005 21:54 (UTC)

No, you just enjoy winding genuine editors up by full-scale POV edits -max rspct 6 July 2005 22:10 (UTC)

You make your POV edit; I make mine - tit for tat. A definitional issue is necessarily POV for all sides. Get a clue. Hogeye 6 July 2005 22:17 (UTC)

Fuck off. Can someone permablock him? --Tothebarricades July 6, 2005 23:00 (UTC)

It's not good Wiki to try to muzzle your competitors, TTB. I though you were one of the folks who wanted to unprotect and continue the permanent edit revolution. You getting cold feet already? Better: Are you now willing to compromise by having a Neutral Disambiguation Page? I figure that sooner or later people will get tired of the edit war and compromise. Or not. Hogeye 6 July 2005 23:18 (UTC)

It's also not good Wiki to hold your competitors hostage through threatening a nonstop edit war. Actually, that's the definition of POV war, isn't it? Of course that's exactly what I'd expect from a capitalist who can't tell the difference between Trotskyism and anarchism. --Bk0 6 July 2005 23:22 (UTC)

I don't see you as a "competitor." I see you as a petty vandal and a troll who should be removed for being a disruptive user who adds nothing to the project. I've done everything I can to "compromise" with you. And for the record, I didn't want to unprotect because I knew you'd stoop to precisely this level. Finally, before the typically petty "LOL UR SOME ANARCHIST LOL" comeback, I feel like we should treat you like a repeat sex offender would be treated on a libertarian commune. It is in the interests of everyone that you stop your nonsense and be reasonable. --Tothebarricades July 6, 2005 23:30 (UTC)

And yet, I've discussed and discussed for two archives, perhaps more than you. My contributions to the article can be seen from the record. I will again be reasonable, and revert to the Neutral Disambiguation Page. Your turn to be reasonable and not revert back. Hogeye 6 July 2005 23:35 (UTC)

I wouldn't call what you've been doing "discussion." That you've been talking more than me makes sense considering the argument has been you vs. the world. --Tothebarricades July 6, 2005 23:42 (UTC)

You want him "removed" by whom? An authoritative figure, I presume. Quite anarchistic of you, I must say.

Bargaining Position

Since the socialist partisans refuse to accept an NPOV article, I might as well do likewise. My favored article now classifies non-propertarian schools as archist (per Benjamin Tucker), hence unworthy of serious consideration in the article. But I'll be pseudo-NPOV like the socialists. I'll mention the poseurs and even give them a link in the italicized heading. It seems to me that good Wiki gamesmanship requires that I take the same bargaining position as my competitors. Then perhaps we can both compromise (if edit-wars get old) to a middle NPOV position like Katz and I supported. Hogeye 7 July 2005 04:27 (UTC)

Some thoughts about the disputed issues in this article

I haven't been following the recent developments too closely, and so I have no opinion, for instance, on Hogeye's current tactics. I wanted to say a couple things about the article. I don't really care very much anymore how it winds up, but, generally, I would prefer a disambiguation along the lines of Hogeye's "neutral disambiguator page". However, I consider a disambiguation scheme mirroring the one at libertarianism—which is basically what prevailed for a few months—to be an acceptable compromise.

One caveat, though: above, Kev writes: "To state at the top of this page that it concerns the usage of anarchism which is anti-capitalist, and then to introduce anarcho-capitalism as a form of this anarchism, is contradictory." That is quite true; however, at an earlier time, Kev was deleting a mention of anarcho-capitalism from the article which did not present it as a form of anarchism. Because this is a very long article, I think it's quite reasonable to have a brief redundant mention of anarcho-capitalism. The basic form of this mention should be along the lines of (in more encyclopediac language): "Hey, I guess there's a chance that you, the reader, might be looking for information about this anarcho-capitalism business. Well, remember that header at the beginning of the article? The upshot of that was that we're using a definition of anarchism which excludes anarcho-capitalism. So, if you want to know anything about it, you'll have to read a different article." Remember that a lot of the people reading this article are going to be people who don't come in knowing very much or anything about the subject.

If we can agree on the above, then the only sticking point left is the wording of the disambiguation, and I'm confident that can be worked out without too much discord. I've gone on record supporting something that would specify "anarchism" as a particular intellectual trend, tied to flesh-and-blood people like Bakunin, Goldman, etc. However, there are several reasonable configurations.

A side issue is how to harmonize this article with ones like anti-statism and libertarian socialism. The former would make a good repository for any anarchism (anti-state)–type material that gets kicked off this page. In fact, I wonder if we could get rid of anarchism (disambiguation) and just have anti-statism? As for libertarian socialism, it has always had a lot of overlap with anarchism; if by some weird turn of events, the socialist-specific material gets kicked off of anarchism, that would be a good place for it. Even if it doesn't, these two pages could use some work on un-redundantizing. - Nat Krause 7 July 2005 06:11 (UTC)

It is true that more than a year and a half ago I deleted mention of anarcho-capitalism before it was disambiguated, there were a lot of reasons for that given state of the edit war then which no longer apply. But if you are claiming that this is recent, that there was no disambiguation, and I still removed all mention of anarcho-capitalism, then it must have been a mistake on my part. I would also like evidence, as I don't recall doing anything like that. Still, I readily apologise if its true. To my knowledge I have only removed anarcho-capitalist sections when a disambiguation was already in place. In fact, there have been times in the history of this article, before it was disambiguated, when I replaced the anarcho-capitalist section after someone else removed it. Anyway, regardless of this, mentioning anarcho-capitalism in an article already disambiguated from the anarcho-capitalist usage of anarchism is not merely redundant (and unnecessary, regardless of its size), it is contradictory. When you tell the reader, at the very begining of the article, that this article is 'not' about a given subject, it makes no sense to then go into that subject in the article. It either does include information on anarcho-capitalism or it doesn't, you can't claim the latter when you are doing the former.

I want to reemphasize that my point was to bring attention to the italicized part of this statement ""To state at the top of this page that it concerns the usage of anarchism which is anti-capitalist, and then to introduce anarcho-capitalism as a form of this anarchism, is contradictory." I was referring to edits by Kev like this, in which he removed a refrence to anarcho-capitalism which specifically stated that it is not a form of anarchism as described in the article. I'm arguing that this sort of mention is redundant, yes, but it is not contradictory or unnecessary. - Nat Krause 8 July 2005 09:19 (UTC)

As I think is pretty apparent, the disambiguation was present at the time. If you are saying that I shouldn't have removed it merely because the article indicated that it was not commonly considered a part of anarchism, then I disagree. Again, I see a disambiguation statement coinciding with an anarcho-capitalism section as contraditory, the purpose of one is undone by the other. So I guess we disagree. Kev 8 July 2005 09:39 (UTC)

Moving on... I agree that moving the disambiguation page information to anti-statism would be a good idea, assuming that the disambiguation warning is removed from this article in favor of a section of capitalism. As for libertarian socialism, that is a different can of worms. Kev 7 July 2005 07:48 (UTC)

I would prefer keeping the disambig header and moving the anarcho-capitalist info to anti-statism. As for mentioning anarcho-capitalism in the article, I would have to say that it's an issue related to the debate over (decentralized) command vs. free market economies within anarchism. Pushing past the rhetoric, I sense that A/C's are trying equate capitalism with "free market" approaches to economics. Therefore A/C could get a mention in the appropriate "Conflicts withing Anarchism" section, but not as a 'School'. We've been over why A/C is not part of anarchism as a social movement/political philosophy, which is how the disambig header defines the article (currently). --albamuth 7 July 2005 15:37 (UTC)

You're surprised that capitalist anarchists are "trying to equate capitalism with free market approaches to economics"? Ever looked up the term "capitalism"? (see q:Capitalism). Capitalism is by definition a free market system. A free market system is one where government is not coercively intervening in market transactions. Anarcho-capitalists do not have a non-standard definition of capitalism. RJII 7 July 2005 16:11 (UTC)

Capitalism is necessarily a free market system. Free market systems are not necessarily capitalist. They are not the same thing. --albamuth 7 July 2005 16:24 (UTC)

Right, all "free market" systems aren't necessarily capitalist. Take the mutualist model preferred by the traditional individualist anarchists. It's a free market system, but they choose not to profit in their business endeavors (profit being considered an essential characteristic of capitalism). So, that's a free market system that is not capitalist. Capitalism is a free market system that includes profit. RJII 7 July 2005 22:34 (UTC)

It is funny though, that RJ would use as evidence for his claim a definition page of wikipedia that he recently edited to a large degree. Kev 7 July 2005 17:55 (UTC)

In defence of RJ I must say that the Capitalism page is not at all his own creation, but the result of a vast cooperation. He did indeed contribute a lot - and most of his edits were quite good actually - but so did other users like Ultramarine or, to a lesser degree, myself. Finding an acceptable definition of capitalism was the issue that too the most time to resolve by far, but in the end a consensus emerged, and the definition has stayed constant for a few months now. I hope we might reach a consensus on the definition of anarchism as well. (for my part the current on is fine, btw). Luis rib 7 July 2005 19:53 (UTC)

You are refering to the wikipedia article on capitalism, RJ referanced the wiki quote article, whose numerous recent additions by RJ are certainly not the result of any consensus. Kev 7 July 2005 20:05 (UTC)

Ah, true. Actually I never look at wikiquote, so I misunderstood. Actually it looks like the former article on definitions of capitalism, to which at some point we were referring to when there was no consensus on the definition. Apparently it got moved to wikiquote, since already then it only consisted of quotes. Luis rib 7 July 2005 20:10 (UTC)

I notice that you are using a broad definition of anarchism now, so I added anarcho-capitalism to the list of schools. --208.180.155.240 7 July 2005 22:24 (UTC)

Edits since 22:59 7 July 2005

I'd like to thank CesarB, 24.113..., RJII, Kevehs, 64.238..., 24.14..., and 208.180... for their constructive edits which have developed the article. Looking through the edit's political content, and some of the editors previous political stances, I disagree with them. However, all the edits made are supportable in an academic disciplinary sense and display NPOV language, emphasis and content. The edits produce a better article, so that if Joe Bloggs or Jane Doe comes to Anarchism they will have a good primer of where to go next to learn more, and perhaps understand some of the division between social anarchy, individualism, and that somewhat peculiar half-breed of individualism and neo-liberalism. Well done. Keep up the good work. Fifelfoo 7 July 2005 22:44 (UTC)

Thanks, but I would like to point that my single edit consisted solely of fixing an interwiki link, and had zero effect on the overall article contents. I just forgot to check the "minor" checkbox. --cesarb 7 July 2005 23:08 (UTC)

I agree, great edits. Finally I can start paying attention to the rest of Wikipedia. --albamuth 8 July 2005 04:58 (UTC)

I recant my positive outlook. I turn my back for a few days to work on historiographical issues and the Polish nationalist conspiracy and people turn back to the shit fighting. Fifelfoo 02:14, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Critiques Section Needs Work

Right now the critiques section reads to me like this: "here are some critiques of anarchism, and anarcho-capitalism has the answers!" All of the anarchist schools have answers to those critiques, so they are better addressed on the sub-pages, rather than trying to list them all here. --albamuth 8 July 2005 05:27 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalism

Yet again this article has been infused with information on anarcho-capitalism throughout, implying that this is some kind of major movement within anarchism. There seemed to be some agreement above that a small section on anarcho-capitalism is sufficient. While I know that not every editor agrees with that, I think it is a better compromise than either removing it entirely or putting this controversial sub-movement all over the article. My edits will reflect that. Kev 8 July 2005 08:07 (UTC)

Against my better judgement I've left in referance to both Bastiat and Molinari in the history, despite the fact that neither of these individuals are actually precursors to anarchism. I would like to note the following that are now present in the article in accordance with the wishes of anarcho-capitalist editors, despite its unfortunate effect on the truth:

• The definition of the article has been changed to be compatible with anarcho-capitalism. This is perhaps the worst part, as it is historically inaccurate and reflects the wrong impression to newcomers, but if this compromise is necessary I'm willing to go with it.

• The anarcho-capitalism section has be re-added. This was necessary anyway once the disambiguation warning was removed.

• Molinari and Bastiat are present in the history. There is no point to this, as one supported the state and the other was an anti-state liberal, but again if it will appease the edit warriors.

• Much of the article which emphasizes the differences of individualists from collectivists and their antagonism between one another has been left in tact. This is a long known favored tactic of anarcho-capitalist, to over-emphasize the few instances of antagonism between collectivists and individualists and pretend that the many areas of agreement and mutual support have been non-existant. In fact, the article as it now stands only has a single sentence to reflect the fact that in modern times there is little or no hostility between these two groups. Again, I've left this to appease edit warriors.

And then there are those points I removed, which I felt went above and beyond any compromise. In fact, I think the article is already skewed too much toward this sub-movement's POV, and as such I'm happy to go back on some of the above compromises if editors prove petulant about this, and I understand that some editors might feel like all the above is too much to allow. So here are the things I've removed and will stand by:

• Mentioning anarcho-capitalism throughout the article to compare it with traditional anarchism at every single turn. This is a controversial and minor sub-movement which already has its own article, there is no need to turn this article into "anarcho-capitalism vs everyone they don't like".

• Including the anarcho-capitalism section under "schools of anarchism", which presumes an issue which is controversial. The voice of wikipedia should not be used to introduce anarcho-capitalism as a school of anarchism, though including it as a related concept or in its own section is acceptable imho. Kev 8 July 2005 08:42 (UTC)

Excellent article at the moment, especially as compared to the version I came across a while ago, which basically said "anarchists believe this... except anarcho-capitalists, who believe this" in every section. I made a (very) minor edit (assumed "ballots not bullets" was meant in the description of voluntaryism. I've never heard of anarchists oppsing the ballet...) and I kind of wanted to take out or refute the critique involving violence in hunter-gatherer societies, since such violence is nowhere near the scale of that initiated by states, but left it in because as an anarchist I'm admittedly quite POV on this issue and it is the "critiques" section, after all. Hope I did this right... this is my first attempt at contributing to wikipedia.. XbenX 8 July 19:14 (UTC)

XbenX> "I've never heard of anarchists opposing the ballet..."

Everyone from Proudhon to Malatesta to Goldman was against electoral politics. You'd like this: Voluntaryism in the European Anarchist Tradition by Carl Watner. Also [2]

Emma Goldman wrote in "Anarchists and Elections", an article appearing in the June-July 1936 Vanguard:

"

1. [The] question as to whether the abstention from participation in elections is for Anarchists a matter of principle? I certainly think it is, and should be for all anarchists.

2. ... [It] is but logical for Anarchists not to consider political participation as a "simple question of tactics." Such tactics are not only incompatible with Anarchist thought and principles, but they also injure the stand of Anarchism as the one and only true revolutionary philosophy.

3. Can Anarchists, without scruple, and in the face of certain circumstances exercise power during a transition period? ... I cannot understand how they can possibly aspire to power.

"

Hogeye 05:55, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Hogeye ... I think he was joking. He said "ballet" not "ballot". There's probably an anarchist or two out there who opposes both, I'd wager. - Nat Krause 06:05, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Welcome! I agree that it should be taken out, but only because it is already present in the anarcho-primitivism page and it does not apply to anarchism as a whole thus does not belong here. I'm also a bit skeptical of the criticism (I believe it actually originated from Bookchin?), and I believe there have been responses to it, so if you happen to know of any it would be great if you could referance them on the anarcho-primitivism page. Kev 8 July 2005 19:24 (UTC)

Welcome. The argument has been challenged, so we could put your point in the article. For future reference, be careful not to just "refute" something in an article, which would be considered "original research". --Tothebarricades July 8, 2005 19:51 (UTC)

Schools

I think anarcho-capitalism should remain here if it's going to be anywhere. I don't like the ideas, but then again I don't like primitivist ideas either - shouldn't matter. Furthermore, it's an easy point to compromise on. --Tothebarricades July 9, 2005 02:30 (UTC)

The Capitalist in Anarchist's clothing finally shows in Tothebarricades.

lol, no, I don't think he is an anarcho-capitalist. However, this is not a matter of what faction we "like" or "don't like" personally. I tend to think that anarcho-syndicalists skate too close to beauracracy and procedure, and if we lived in my perfect world only anti-propertarians would be considered anarchists at all. But all of this would follow from my personal interpretation of the definition of anarchism, and that of the individuals like myself, not from its actual modern and historical usage by anarchists at large. So no, I don't think it is an easy point to compromise on, because it is a serious distortion of the use of the term and a controversial one at that. Furthermore, there has already been enough compromise in this article, as I have discussed above. Put anarcho-capitalism under schools of anarchism and we are abusing the supposely NPOV voice of wikipedia, and only one step away from entirely handing this article over to the POV of capitalists just because they complained the loudest of all claimants. Kev 9 July 2005 05:29 (UTC)

I usually don't take the no personal attacks thing seriously, but I draw the line at calling me a capitalist. Watch it. --Tothebarricades July 9, 2005 10:13 (UTC)

Compromise

Seems impossible at this point, this has gone on forever, and obviously the current editors are ignoring the talk page now entirely. I have to ask you people, Dtobias, RJ, and ChuckO, how exactly do you expect your version to ever be stable if you are not willing to compromise at all? Each of you simply reverts back to the version you prefer and refuses to accept a single point of compromise. I understand why RJ does it, he actually wants an eternal edit war on this article and has said so specifically, but Dtobias and ChuckO, you both should be willing or able to discuss this and help us reach a stable version rather than simply revert non-stop. I understand that you all feel that the article is biased, but there are methods of addressing this other than reverting. One is to come up with creative edits that address concerns on both sides, the another is to discuss this until you come to an understanding. With the exception of RJ, reverting won't help any of you in the long run. Kev 9 July 2005 05:38 (UTC)

Ah, and lest I forget, Hogeye. Or rather, two new editors and a couple of anons who act a whole lot like Hogeye. Welcome Mykenism and Marxist leon, we really need more sock puppets around here. Kev 9 July 2005 05:44 (UTC)

RJ has been behaving better than I expected him to, actually. Especially considering Hogeye's episode of psychosis the other day. I won't take my eye off him, though ;) --Tothebarricades July 9, 2005 10:15 (UTC)

One of the socialists has just promised to entice his/her buddies from some "anarchist librarian" list to come here and join the edit war, so I don't know if the capitalists can be categorized as the only ones unwilling to compromise. Maybe I should start recruiting new edit warriors from libertarian lists and websites? *Dan* July 9, 2005 14:21 (UTC)

That's gotta be infoshop.org forum. Hogeye 00:29, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

That individual is ChuckO, who you will notice I am addressing above along with the others. Kev 21:56, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

It's looking pretty good. My three 'demands' have been met. (Maybe #2 needs some work.)

• Anarchism should not, anywhere in the article, be described as anti-capitalist. Specific schools, of course, may be so described.
• Attributions to what anarchists say, or think, or believe, should be accurate. E.g. If anarcho-capitalists or individualist anarchists don't subscribe to a belief, a more specific term such as "anarcho-socialists" should be used.
• If there is a "Schools of Anarchism" section, the Individualist Anarchist and Anarcho-capitalist schools should be included.

Good going, folks! Hogeye 9 July 2005 14:33 (UTC)

Note - any attempt to create an artificial binary between anarcho-capitalism and "anarcho-socialism" will be reverted, as in the books section. --Tothebarricades July 9, 2005 15:18 (UTC)

Okay. I added the books without categorizing them. Hogeye 9 July 2005 16:02 (UTC)

Any attempt to treat anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism without explanation will also be reverted, I'm afraid. --Tothebarricades 22:40, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

Anarchism must be described as anti-capitalist AND anti-state for the sake of accuracy. It also needs to be described as anti-religious (more specifically, against hierarchically-organized religion). My compromise is that anarcho-capitalists, though they are apparently not anarchists or capitalists, get included because they describe themselves as belonging to the anarchist tradition. Let me ask this:: 'when was ANY agreement made? Maybe I missed it in the 150Kb file this talk page has become. --albamuth 9 July 2005 19:02 (UTC)

You are being too dogmatic if you argue that AC can only be included because it "describes itself as belonging to the anarchist tradition". After, normal anarchists and ACs do share quite a few fundamental beliefs, the most important being the rejection of hierarchies and oppression. AC takes different conclusions, true, but that doesn't mean that the founding hypotheses are necessarily different. Luis rib 20:03, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

But, they don't reject hierarchy. They actively embrace it and deny that anarchism requires its rejection. That is why they are using a different understanding of the word, one entirely separate from its tradition. Kev 21:56, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Traditional individualist anarchists in the American tradition do not oppose boss/employer relationships. That's what you mean by hierarchy right? So, according to you that means they're not anarchists. Is this correct? RJII 00:06, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

If they have equal pay for equal hours worked, and the individualist employee can leave the business and start their own with loans made at cost, then its not much of a hierarchy, no. Kev 04:25, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

You are a right -- the most compelling argument for A/C inclusion is not that they want to belong, but that they are against hierarchies of any sort. The binding definition of anarchism in the intro needs to stress that. --albamuth 21:56, 9 July 2005 (UTC) Also, I have not been convinced A/C's and anarchists share quite a few fundamental beliefs, as Luis rib wrote. Being against collective property is not inherently anarchist. Being against the state for reasons other than it being a social power hierarchy (you know what I mean) is not inherently anarchist. --albamuth 22:14, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

The most compelling argument for including anarcho-capitalism is that it is anti-statist. IOW it satisfies the definition of anarchism. Hogeye 16:43, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Anarchism is anti-statist, of that there is no doubt. But anarchism is, and has always been, more than merely anti-statist. Kev 18:07, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Some people, organizations, and movements attach other baggage to "anarchism", certainly, but that doesn't mean that it's part of the definition. Some people regard "America" as meaning just the United States, and may further associate it with such things as "baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet", but that doesn't mean that South America isn't "America" too, or that somebody who prefers football, hamburgers, cherry pie and Ford is any less American. *Dan* 18:34, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Baggage? Who are you to determine what is baggage in the anarchist tradition and what is not? Why should a group of people hostile to the tradition of anarchism be able to define for wikipedia readers what constitutes baggage based on their own political views? If you guys insist on having a disambiguation warning then I will support it, but that means that this page would no longer be about the anarcho-capitalist unique views on what anarchism is and is not. Kev 03:13, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen anyone claim that anarcho-capitalism is traditional. But it's a fallacy of reasoning to think that a philosophy is not anarchism just because it's newer and different than older philosophies. Besides, maybe it is traditional by now ...anarcho-capitalism was developed a few lifetimes ago. RJII 03:18, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I haven't seen anyone claim that anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism merely because it is newer and different than older philosophies. And really, if anarcho-capitalism began with Molinari, then the cave-men were primitivists and AC is still in its infancy. Otherwise, lets stick to reality rather than AC dreamland. Kev 04:29, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Then I don't know where you've been. The argument of the opposition to including anarcho-capitalism as being anarchism has been that anarchism has traditionally been anti-capitalist. RJII 13:39, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

No, that is one of the arguments, out of at least 5 distinct ones. In itself, the tradition argument means very little. Taken together with the entailments of the etymology being contrary to institutions supported by capitalism, the hostility of ACs to anarchism (which goes along with their attempts to completely redefine it and over-emphasize their own importance), the foundations of its philosophy being contrary to capitalist aims, and its modern usage amongst anarchists and most authors, the tradition argument adds one piece of evidence. Personally, for me, the fact that every single anarchist before the creation of "anarcho"-capitalism specifically rejected capitalism as incompatible with their philosophical views, pretty much speaks for itself, even if all those people are long since dead and capitalists have no problem distorting the few snippets of text they have co-opted from them. Kev 15:33, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Two versions of Critique section?

There are currently two almost identical versions of the Critique section in the article. I refrained from editing it because of the ongoing edit war. --Juanco 9 July 2005 09:23 (UTC)

Examples of modern day anarchism

The article, being pretty huge already, could probably benefit from moving the list of world-wide current anarchist projects to another page, with a brief description pointing to it? In fact, shouldn't it all just be moved to the already existing, past and present anarchist communities? Kev 22:57, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah. I deleted it, with a note to look at the list of orgs at the end of the article.

I don't think outright deletion was proper, it probably had information that should be merged with the past and current article, but I'm left with very little time to fix it given your recent behavior. Kev 20:58, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

No problem. Someone dumped the info into Anarchy. Hogeye 21:48, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Looks pretty good...

... when Kev's not around. Hogeye 00:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

You sure went from serious editor to blatant troll pretty fast. Kev 04:23, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Rothbard's chapter online now, thanks to Lew! Pennsylvania's Anarchist Experiment: 1681–1690 Hogeye 04:39, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Hogeye's Template

Do not put that horrendous template ANYWHERE. It should be deleted promptly and with extreme prejudice. --Tothebarricades 00:50, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Attempt at compromise on books

I will allow one book, preferably by Rothbard, to be listed in this section. Obviously, this is still a severe overrepresentation considering the small number of books on the list. --Tothebarricades 01:20, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Yep. I've tried to compromise with the biggest POV warriors on several accounts, see above. Not a single one of them responded, but all of them went on to push further and further to make this an "anarcho-capitalism" vs "anarcho-socialism" article, in the image of their own POV. No more compromises for me until one of them steps up to the plate. At this point I would take Nat Krause's compromise if the others fell in line, but it wouldn't be good enough for them. Kev 04:28, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Any time I find the anarcho-capitalist books censored out, I will replace them. Any time I find anarchist classics like Oppenheimer's "The State" and Spencer's "Social Statics" censored out, I will replace them. Hogeye 16:40, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalist books are specifically for a sub-movement, they do not apply to general anarchism. Perhaps more importantly, that sub-movement is controversial and a minority, so wikipedia NPOV policy does not require that we redundantly list them twice, both in this and the AC article. Kev 18:05, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking it'd be a bit like listing an equal amount of Latvian Orthodox and non-Latvian Orthodox books in the Christianity article. It's hardly censorship, so stop whining. --Tothebarricades 19:05, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Wilhelm Reich addition to Books

Reich is an interesting case because of his idiosyncratic nature. He refused to adopt any ideological label, preferring instead to coin redundant terms like "work-democracy".

His work in The Mass Psychology of Fascism is important because it lays out the preconditions for reactionary thought and ideology, explaining (in unfortunately laborious Freudian prose) not only its formation but also how it is nurtured and harnessed by authoritarian regimes (taking Nazi Germany as the primary case study). He goes on to present his "work-democracy" theory as essentially orthodox early 20th-century Kropotkin anarchism. It's obvious that he didn't really get (or care) what the anarchists of the time were saying, preferring to write his own version instead.

Mass Psychology is a classic antiauthoritarian work, despite not being nominally anarchist. Therefore I don't think it qualifies as original research to include it here. --Bk0 02:30, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Interesting, but I think I'd prefer only to have works that are canonical and explicitly anarchist in the books section; I'd like to see what others think. I'm making an exception to this rule for the Rothbard book, but this seems to be a necessary compromise. --Tothebarricades 03:24, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

I agree.. although Reich is undoubtedly a major scientific figure connected with the Beat generation, sexual revolution and was originally a Marxist - he doesn't belong in the Anarchism article -max rspct 16:31, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

There is an essay on him in the excellent "Anarchism: A Documentary History of Libertarian Ideas" by Robert Graham but interestingly nothing by him. The essay on him was written by an anarchist. --Tothebarricades 23:10, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Reich wrote about how great Russia was in Sex Pol. He ain't no anarchist. His individualism stems from his egomania more than any ideology about freedom. Though Dusan Makavejev's film about Reich is a little more anarchist because it critiques the state. An An 23:25, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Reich was a former commie, and I'm not going to defend that, but he did eventually give it up, calling the Soviet system "Red Fascism". He was an egomaniac too, obviously. But Mass Psychology is still important for radicals to read—or Maurice Brinton's book The Irrational In Politics, which is sort of an anarchist summary of Reich's themes (available from See Sharp Press). --Bk0 21:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Newbie pops up to stir the pot again...

What a mess; I'm not even going to begin trying to edit this article. But I have been watching this dispute and a few things need to be said (or re-said), especially this:

The Wikipedia article needs to be primarily history-based; categorization should be secondary.

The "traditional anarchists" -- folks like "albamuth" -- have argued against the over-bearing presence of AC history in the Wikipedia article -- as promoted by folks like "Hogeye" -- primarily due to the idea that anarcho-capitalism has a relatively minor place in history as opposed to what is traditionally considered "Anarchism." Tradition isn't everything, but a historical account of the development of Anarchism tends to most effectively put sub-groupings in their proper places.

Anarchism appears to have kicked into effect with the writings and ideas of Proudhon -- all instances before Proudhon should probably be termed "proto-Anarchist." Anarchism then divided into two emphases:

a. collectivism: "for the good of the many" (primarily in Europe?)

b. individualism: "individual needs, first" (primarily in the United States?)

From here, the historical discussion took the form of "How do we best promote and sustain our specific emphasis?" Obviously, "the State" isn't a good answer; thus, Stateless socio-economic forms of organization had to be discussed. Economics appeared as the preferred choice of discussion, with two well-known views at opposite ends of a spectrum of views: socialism and capitalism. And this appears to be the discussion that is still being had today.

The whole Wiki-debate is centered on "What is anarcho-capitalism's place in the history of Anarchism?" Now, if you read into his actions properly, Hogeye clearly understands the importance of "historical significance." This is most clearly seen in his table "Timeline of Modern Anarchism" where he labels Gustave de Molinari as the "[F]irst anarcho-capitalist." If Molinari were not cast in this role, folks like Hogeye would have only Murray Rothbard, et al. to fall back on, people who came much later than Molinari. Simply put, Molinari is Hogeye's "foot" in the door of history.

This is a multifaceted problem. I'm simply not familar enough with Molinari's works to argue whether or not he was an anarcho-capitalist, let alone whether he would have claimed such a title. But I will ask this: does it matter if Molinari was the first AC? What seems to be more important in a discussion of historical significance is "lasting-effect": a sub-group's importance can be based on its literary/philosophical wealth, span of significant existence, number of adherents, etc. Albamuth has made a similar argument, and I believe it is the correct one.

Let me explain: Molinari as "first anarcho-capitalist" does not appear to have any philosophical heirs until the 1940's and 1950's, nearly a century from his first publications. Interestingly enough, in the current AC-friendly version of the Anarchism article the writers acknowledge Molinari as one of many "influences" on AC, but not an anarcho-capitalist himself. The people he was listed with were individualists, not capitalists, and I believe that this distinction is what should be noted: no matter what Molinari's views were, anarcho-capitalism did not come into maturity until long after the primary individualists.

In short, Molinari was one individualist-anarchist out of many, not an anarcho-capitalist. Ergo, anarcho-capitalism should be kept in its proper place -- a sub-group of "individualist" -- and not be given so much attention in the Anarchism article. Unlike albamuth and others, I will acknowledge that anarcho-capitalism is a "school of thought" (whatever that means in the first place); however, it is also a third-tier, economics-specific derivation of the Anarchism put forward by Proudhon, et al., and is also a point-of-view that has come to maturity very late in the game relative to other schools. My recommendations:

a. AC should be treated as a new-comer philosophy.

b. AC should be given a minimum of mention under the category of "individualist anarchism."

c. AC should be mentioned in the conflicts between economic emphases (i.e. "capitalist vs. communist").

d. If the ACs would like a link from "Anarchism" to "Anarcho-Capitalism," editors should oblige.

That said, my arguments do not address what is or is not a legitimate "school" of Anarchist thought. Let me say simply this: categorization within schools should be based on the willingness of a school to accept a list of institutions. In other words, "profit sucks, but private property is a must" would be one school and "free markets are great, but property should be collectively owned" would be another. If you wish me to ellucidate, I will; currently, I'm tired and I want to go get something to eat.

--TelemachusSneezed 01:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

You are right that the American tradition is all about individualism, while the European tradition is about collectivism. This is foundational to understanding philosophical anarchism. Unfortunately, this article for quite awhile has been under the control of people who apparently were not aware of the American tradition and believed that all anarchism was a Euro-brand of collectivism, and anti-private property, and all about rioting in the streets and breaking shop windows. And you're right that anarcho-capitalism is individualist, though not traditional individualist. RJII 01:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Good points, though I must point out that I have argued against using tradition as the criteria for definition. I'm not opposed to RJII's recent, many edits, either -- I read them and believe them to be honest, fact-based edits. However, I would not characterize US anarchism as primarily "individualist". Probably the most notable of US anarchist activities was the founding of the IWW, which involved Lucy Parsons and Eugene Debs (who was part of the Socialist Party, I believe). Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Voltairine de Cleyre, and their contemporaries at the turn of the century were of the communist/syndicalist persuasion (though Voltairine was the first to declare herself an "anarchist without adjectives"). As far as willingness to accept a list of institutions, that would be a messy distinction. Again, I would advocate a evolutionary epistemological approach to illustrate the orgins and inculcation of various memes into the anarchist movement. I still don't think listing "schools" is an accurate way of presenting the various anarchist ideas/terms, however people seem to have a Linnaean bias towards epistemological taxonomy, so I guess that's the way it's gotta be. Personally, I would prefer a nonlinear analysis of anarchist history, but since there is no source material, it would constitute orginal research. --albamuth 02:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Not to mention Max Stirner was a European, and this simplistic American/European divide sorta leaves out the rest of the word and ignores all the evidence that contradicts it. Kev 03:00, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Max Stirner did not believe in private property. Hence the dilineation of the American individualist tradition (liberal anarchism). RJII 03:06, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Tucker didn't believe in any kind of private property beyond what Proudhon believed in. So how are you artificially going to divide these two in order to fit your scheme. After all, Proudhon was (gasp) a European. Kev 03:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

One person does not make a tradition. RJII 04:09, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

True, but it breaks a false generalization. Of course, you continue to ignore the evidence above concerning the fact that anarcho-communism had an american tradition as well. Doesn't fit your scheme, does it? Well hey, include the fact that Goldman was not born in the states (merely lived most of her life there), and you only have half a dozen counter examples to deal with. Remeber, ignore the evidence that goes against your worldview, otherwise it might change. Kev 04:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Nobody is saying that all American anarchists have been individualists --of course there have been collectivist anarchists in America (duh!). The point is that America is the locale of the liberal individualist anarchist tradition. RJII 13:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I will gladly accept this as the backpedaling it is on your part, "that the American tradition is all about individualism, while the European tradition is about collectivism". Kev 15:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

My point there is not that there are no collectivists in America. My point is that the distinguishing characteristic of Americanism is individualism, as opposed to any kind of tribalism or collectivism. Those who founded America were individualists, as were the traditional individualist anarchists in America. And, that fiber of individualism is what exemplifies and even sometimes isolates America from much of the rest of the world. Those who came to America rejected all forms of collectivism, including democracy.

That is funny, I can think of dozens of prominent collectivists of every sort who both immigrated to America and were born there. You have a soft spot for overly broad generalization. 02:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

America, at its root is extremely individualist and pro-private property as a result. The American individualist anarchists were adamant about being free to "disconnect" (Warren) oneself from others. Collectivism, though it exists, is not traditional in America --individualism is. RJII 15:53, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, you can speculate all you want about the subjective determination of what constitutes "tradition" in America and what does not. Further, you can continue to ignore all the evidence that goes against your speculation. All that I ask is that you leave it out of the wiki articles, except for when it is quoted from prominent individuals relevant to the section. Kev 02:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't think we we should refer to Molinari as an individualist anarchist when he had no attachment whatsoever to the individualist anarchists around that time, when he never associated himself with anarchism in any way, and when he advocated capitalism which all anarchists of every kind rejected. Molinari is only an individualist if we revisit the question -after- the creation of anarcho-capitalism, from their own perspective. In other words, if we revise history with a particularly biased understanding that support their own worldview. No, Molinari was not an individualist, and neither are the anarcho-capitalists who claim him as a forebearer. Individualist anarchism rejected capitalism, not merely on technical grounds (opps, we got LTV wrong, I guess it turns out that those people we spewed so much bile at were actually our buddies), but due to fundamental differences in perspective of what constitutes social justice and rejection of human domination. Kev 03:00, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalists are not individualists? So they're collectivists? RJII 03:04, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

They are not -anarchist- individualists. And unlike you, I live in a world where not everyone falls cleanly into one of these two categories. Ever heard of the anarchists without adjectives? Or how about the emphasis that modern anarcho-communists place on individual autonomy? Kev 03:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Then say what you mean next time. Clearly, anarcho-capitalists are individualists. As far as anarcho-communists, communism is collectivism by definition. Collectivists cannot be individualists. Ever seen a communist advocate "sovereignty of the individual"? RJII 04:09, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

You really don't know anything about the history of anarchism, do you? Did you even know that collectivist and communist anarchists were once at odds? Stop bothering me until you learn something, I have no time for your narrow categories designed for minds in need of simplicity. You only parrot what McElroy and Rothbard have told you to believe. Kev 04:24, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

You don't know anything about communism do you? Communism IS collectivism. The terms are interchangeable. Communism is the purest form of collectivism. [3] RJII 13:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

You go ahead and ignore history, sticking instead to the definitions you've been spoon fed by the one or two articles you've read. Do you think I'm making this up just to get a rise out of you? Honestly now, go find out for yourself. Prove me a liar. Kev 15:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I've seen this behavior from you before. You're very predictable and transparent. RJII 15:53, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

I am both a collectivist and an individualist. So are others. There is no contradiction. --Tothebarricades 18:15, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Individualist anarchists disagree, hence the moniker and explicit denunciation of collectivist concepts. For example, Benjamin Tucker says "That there is an entity known as the community which is the rightful owner of all land, Anarchists deny. I... maintain that ‘the community’ is a non-entity, that it has no existence, and is simply a combination of individuals having no prerogatives beyond those of the individuals themselves." RJII 18:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Some early individualists disagreed, for certain, and perhaps some still would. But then again, back then collectivist anarchists had not embrace many of the individualist tenets and incorporated them into their own theories. Today the issue is more complicated and the distinction less clear. Kev 21:08, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Please, settle down, you guys. Points I agree with:

• American anarchism is unique in that Individualism arose in the States and not elsewhere.
• Individualists DID denounce collective property, back in the day and it was a heated debate.
• Contemporary anarchists (not 100 yrs ago -- today!) are much more wary of labels and dogma, and are much more sophisticated in their organizational systems, hence the collective property / private property debate is no longer relevant, to contemporary, mainstream anarchists. (By that I am not including AC's, of course).

I think the issue was resolved when the meme of maximize individual autonomy entered the movement, somewhere in the mid-twentieth century. By that anarchists realized that in some cases collective property is inefficient, and compromises must be made in those cases. This does not give up on the case against property in general. The idea was that objects and land are "managed" by individuals, as part of their personal possessions, and personal responsibility for things tends to take care of those things a lot better (in response to the diffusion of responsibility effect that would take place on collectively-run farms in Soviet Russia). The objection to ownership is metaphysical -- for example, Donald Trump may think he owns a lot of buildings, but in reality, he doesn't own a thing, not even the clothes on his back. So even collective ownership is nullified. The anarchist practical approach (among practicing anarchists, not Internet prosyletizers) is to think of it as possessorship and not ownership. "I may possess this useful tool now, but someday someone might need it and I'll lend it to them and they might forget to give it back. In that case, I'll tell them how inconvenienced I am by not possessing that tool and if they're a good friend, they'll probably give it back." The attitude of "this is MINE! That is MINE!" is heavily frowned upon. What is also frowned upon is abusing someone else's personal possession.

The point is, from all of the ideas at the turn of the century, anarchist practice has evolved into a culture that has no strict definitions, but like all cultures, as its own form of ettique (sp?) for dealing with such things. --albamuth 18:57, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Archive 21 Created

Whew, that's a lot of talk. I took the liberty of leaving the "Summary of Arguments" thing in, because it might be useful to keep adding to it or modify it. --albamuth 20:54, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Free Market vs. Laissez Faire in description of anarcho-capitalism

We need to figure this out. What would tell the whole story in the fewest words possible? --albamuth 22:38, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

A free market is one where people are trading without coercion, either by an intervening 3rd party (government) or amongst themselves. Laissez-faire only means the government isn't a coercively intervening. Capitalists indeed favor a market economy, and favor a market economy where people aren't employing what anarcho-capitalists (as well as traditional individualists) perceive to be coercion (physical force, the threat of it, or fraud) (in other words a "free market"). Traditional individualist anarchists favor a free market economy as well. For anarcho-capitalists, private ownership of the means of production (including raw land) operated for profit and a free market, tells "the whole story." For traditional individualist anarchists, it's private ownership of everything except raw land and a free market. RJII 22:44, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

In that case the distinction of being for or against free markets is unneccessary. The key distinction between the individualists and capitalists is labor theory of value and subjective theory of value. --albamuth 23:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

What do you mean it's unnecessary? The "free" part or the "market" part? I think "free market" is essential. That's what makes them ANARCHO-capitalists --the fact that they oppose coercion, both all interpersonal coercion and all and 3rd party interventionist coercion. Otherwise, they're ordinary capitalists that accept a modicum of economic statism (as in a relatively free market). The "market" part is necessary because that's what distinguishes them from anarchists who oppose a market economy in favor of a gift economy or other such configuration. RJII 01:38, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Plenty of anarchists, besides individualists, favor a free market approach to economic distribution/production. The pricing system is what differentiates anarcho-capitalists -- even anarcho-communists are not necessarily against a market economy, so long as it's based on the labor theory of value. Gift economies can also be a free market, rather than a command economy. It may be a minor nuance, one that is better explored in Anarchism and capitalism or anarchist economics, but to sum up the differences in one or two sentences for the purpose of the main article, so I think it would be better to use the terms precisely. IMHO a lot of people have misconceptions of what a "free market" really means and implies, so we should not reinforce the misconception. --albamuth 05:50, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The labor theory of value is economically preposterous... so, if I spent many hours digging ditches and then filling them back in, that would make the land I'm doing this on very valuable? If more hours of labor went into creating the movie From Justin to Kelly than Shakespeare's play Hamlet, then the former is of greater value? This "theory" is more wishful thinking on the part of those who think that labor is everything (the more unskilled, the better) than a serious, rational economic theory. The reality is that things are worth what people are willing to pay for them; a copy of Action Comics #1 sold for ten cents in 1938, and over $100,000 now, despite there not being any more labor added to it between then and now, other than that needed to preserve the copy in good condition. If you put the same amount of effort into preserving a copy of Brother Power the Geek #1, the reward would be much less; it's all in what people subjectively value the thing. (Not to mention that, under this theory, if the ACs put more hours into their Wikipedia participation, then they deserve to win the edit war, because their stuff will hence be proven to be more valuable!) *Dan* 23:47, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Gee Dtobias, this tangent really helps the article. BTW, have you ever read any of the modern individualist essays, and indeed anarcho-communist essays, that detail various modifications to the labor theory of value? Even Proudhon and Tucker went beyond simple pay=hours worked to include such things as greater productivity, danger, etc. And today most incorporate aspects of utility as well. But hey, if you want to go on with your personal arguments directed at phantoms from 150 years ago, arguments that are straw-men even for them, go right ahead. Oh, and while you are at it, pretend that the subjective theory of value is some flawless, ironclad call to an objective reality, rather than a nice scheme thought up by owners to legitimate their domination of other people. Kev 02:30, 12 July 2005 (UTC)