Talk:Donegal fiddle tradition

I recognize this text as being from my "Donegal fiddle pages" (google it):

Among the many younger players, the three fiddlers of the Donegal "supergroup" Altan, Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh, Paul O'Shaughnessy, Dinny McLaughlin, and Ciarán Tourish, are commonly regarded as brilliant, as are Mick Brown, Martin McGinley, Dermot McLaughlin, and others too numerous to mention by name. Finally, although he is not known as a fiddle player, Dermot Byrne, the button accordion player currently with Altan, has a style and repertoire that is firmly within the Donegal instrumental tradition; he is widely regarded as one of the finest button accordion players in Ireland. Liz Doherty is the youngest member of this tradition. Her album "Last Orders" appeared in 1999.

While I don't mind that you use my work as part of a Wikipedia article, I most certainly do mind that you do not link to my website or give me credit for the text anywhere. That's simply unethical. --Larry Sanger (talk) 02:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I looked into this to try to fix it and I got a little confused. The earliest version of the article available, copied from your article on Nupedia, includes pretty much the same text:

Among the many younger players, the three fiddlers of the Donegal "supergroup" Altan, Maireád Ní Mhaonaigh, Paul O'Shaughnessy, and Ciarán Tourish, are commonly regarded as brilliant, as are Mick Brown, Martin Mcginley, Dermot Mclaughlin, and others too numerous to mention by name. Finally, although he is not known as a fiddle player, Dermot Byrne, the button accordion player currently with Altan, has a style and repertoire that is firmly within the Donegal instrumental tradition; he is widely regarded as one of the finest button accordion players in Ireland.

On your Donegal fiddle pages here, it says something similar but not quite the same:

It was not until the 1990s, however, that Donegal fiddle music reached its widest audience, with the great artistic and commercial success of the band, Altan. Led by fiddler Mairéad Ní Mhaonaigh, they may be the most popular Irish traditional music group playing today--they have been in the first rank of Irish "supergroups" for over a decade. Other instruments in the current lineup are another fiddle (Ciaran Tourish), button accordian (Dermot Byrne), bouzouki (Ciaran Curran), and two guitars (Mark Kelly in Ireland and Dáithí Sproule in the U.S.)--all played to the very highest standards.

So this article sounds like it's copying from your work on Nupedia, not on your website...or am I more confused than I think I am? Dreamyshade (talk) 12:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Unofficial review

I have been asked by a Wikipedian friend of mine to give some suggestions to improve this article which he improved substantially , especially with referencing and sourcing.
Here is a list of 10 notes that I noticed:

1. The lead section needs to be expanded to include one more paragraph per WP:MoS.Also of note was the fact that WP:LEAD requires the lead to summarize the whole of the article; here the problem was omitting any mention of the music's style in the lead.  Done

2. "Description of style" was on the whole well-written, however take a look at a couple of phrases there and tell me what's wrong with them:

"though one also might plausibly identify several different, but related, styles within the county." "In general, however, the style is rather aggressive." "but relatively uncommon elsewhere, include barndances"

Weasel words! I'll try to fix them... Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

3. I am a bit uneasy with the "Origins" and "History" Sections. The Origins section could well be named History, and the History section could be renamed to more reflect its content. Done

4. Per WP:Guide to layout, should not the History/Origins section come first (you could of course disagree with me, but the layout is important) Done

5. A bit rephrasing here could be helpful: "The historical connection between the west coast of Donegal and Scotland is an ancient one (many shared names) " (many shared names: ?, rephrasing there is important)and "Traditional music Seisiúns are still common place both in pubs and in houses" What's wrong with the second one? The first one was  Done.

6. A bit of POV : "There are a number of different strands to the history of fiddle playing in County Donegal. Perhaps the best-known and, in the last half of the twentieth century, the most influential has been that of the Doherty family" more than one citation will be helpful. Done

7. "international coverage of certain artists but because of local pride in the music" , ok so where is this international coverage? many modern players are red-linked just the paragraph above!  Done

8. Citations 12 to 21 except 17, need to be in the correct format, or rather a better format per WP:CITE and using citation templates.

 Not done Actually, they do. They use {{cite web}} in a format that, according to WP:CITE, is perfectly acceptable. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)  Done

9. The origins section was "date-less", some dates other than the 200-years mentioned in the lead are need for this section.

 Not done Even after re-reading it several times, I'm not sure why one would need dates for this section

Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC) Done

10. I felt the article was not broad enough, perhaps other aspects of the music could be mentioned. I am not particularly familiar with the music, but how about mentioning its awards, films about it, a trivia section - although discouraged per WP:TRIVIA - might actually enrich the article.

I'll try to mention awards/movies, but an actual separate "trivia" section makes me slightly uncomfortable. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 22:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

So that's it for my humble review, nothing very serious to address, but a couple of things here or there can be improved.

Λua∫Wise ^(talk) 11:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Great job indeed...

• I am not sure if point 2 was addressed, but somehow it looks better now, although the words are still there.
• I mistakingly referred to this phrase "Traditional music Seisiúns are still common place both in pubs and in houses" which is correct.
• Point 8, Yes they do use cite web, but almost none states the access date, which is important, because as you know, web sites change and url's will not be helpful then-even though you mentioned the title-. Well, I think this point is rather optional, but it will certainly help if you are going for a GA.
• The Origins (history, now) section might use a couple of dates here or there. I mean any date would be more precise than "ancient Irish music". However, if acquiring dates is somewhat a difficult task, you can ignore this point. I stated it in the first place because an encyclopedia would not come with a date-less history section, do not you agree?
• A trivia section could indeed be a bad idea per WP:TRIVIA, adding info about movies/rewards somewhere in the article could be better.
• Finally, I detected this small problem here with this url : "http://www.efxstudio.com/studio/Music%20Articles/encyclopedic/donegal_fiddle.htm"; a bad request. Perhaps you can fix it.

The article might be ready for GAN now.
Cheers. Λua∫Wise ^(talk) 11:29, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oops, I actually forgot about going back to do point two. :o I guess if it looks better now, it's okay...

&All right, I'll insert the input dates.

• If I can find some dates, I'll insert them.
• Hm, that url works fine for me. Strange. What browser?

Thanks! Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 22:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• I checked the external links via the same tools used for that purpose with FAN. It worked fine with me on firefox but strangely enough, that tool kept telling me that it was a "bad request"....

Well, I congratulate you on your praiseworthy effort, the article was kindda before you came and now it is sortta . ;) . Λua∫Wise ^(talk) 12:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I nominated it at GAN. Nousernamesleft^{copper, not wood} 01:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)