Talk:Ainu people

Are any of these customs still practiced today? --rmhermen

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Do they have any tribal art?

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Try this page, Dreamyshade:

http://wtv6.com/zenegata/ainu.html -- Paul Drye

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Recent genetic and morphological studies claim similiarities exist between the Ainu and American aborigines and between the Ainu and "Japanese" samurai.

What does the bit about similarities between the Ainu and "Japanese" samurai mean exactly? -- Daniel Thomas

I don't think it means anything, and I'll remove it in a few days if nobody objects - stewacide 04:44 Dec 26, 2002 (UTC)

What is all that nonsense at the beginning of the article? It apparently is (1) trying to explain (poorly) what is a Mongoloid and (2) to suggest that somehow Japanese and Ainus are more Mongoloid than Han Chinese or Koreans. I think it should be completely removed since it vaguely has anything to do with Ainus specifically.

Sour pickle 6 July 2005 23:14 (UTC)

Article needs updating after 90 years

Much of the material in this article comes from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica with the present tense intact. If anyone has any knowledge of changes in culture during the past nine decades, it would be most helpful if you updated this article, particularly the Culture section, at least changing to past tense customs that are no longer observed. Fg2 12:40, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

The estimations given for Ainu population and especially for the number of Ainu speakers are apparently out of date. Ainu is NOT spoken any more. I have myself talked to a linguist who worked on Ainu grammar in the 1990ies. His only informant was an old woman in her eighties, bound to bed in a hospital with a dozen of linguists and anthropologists swarming around her. And her command of the language was actually somewhat limited. Ethnologue.com states 15 active speakers at 1996.

Almost ten months after my inquiry about whether the cultural practices are current, I haven't gotten any reply, so I changed them to past tense. If the Ainu people presently follow these cultural traditions, please change the relevant passages to the present tense. Fg2 July 7, 2005 04:28 (UTC)

Beards? just the men?

Not _quite_ that long ago, when I was a kid, I recall reading that Ainu woman had beards. Any truth to that? (I've known some American woman with beards, FWIW) ;Bear 00:15, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)

• No, not exactly; I think you are referencing the traditional practice of tatooing a 'mustache' on an Ainu woman's upper lip.--Pharos 19:57, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Is it really necessary to say that the name is pronounced "eye-noo"? I mean, if the person reading can understand any phonetics, this would be a piece of cake to pronounce. Besides, there are no such pronunciation tools anywhere else on this site. Kakashi-sensei 18:52, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion, "eye-noo" conveys the pronunciation better than "Ainu" (many people would rhyme "ain" with "pain") or tools such as IPA, which only a fraction of English speakers understand. Fg2 01:49, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

I understand that it may be easier for people, but I see no such pronunciation guides anywhere else on Wiki. Anyway, it's not that big of a deal; I just thought it was odd :p Kakashi-sensei 14:22, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I've IPA-ified the pronunciation and included a link to International Phonetic Alphabet for anyone who needs help with the symbols. The IPA is actually very easy to learn; there's no reason to avoid it on the grounds of unfamiliarity. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 28 June 2005 06:16 (UTC)

Archeology?

I thought I read somewhere that the Ainu perplex archeologists because, although they are native to Japan, they appear to be Caucasian in origin. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there should be some mention of that mystery in this article. Kakashi-sensei 18:56, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Modern genetics has proven that Ainu are definitely Asians.

Ah, thanks for that update. Kakashi-sensei 12:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In 1865, an English naturalist and his staff stole Ainu people's bones at 13 graveyards in Otoshibe, Hokkaido for his anthropological study. The bones went back home two years later. However, this is a rare case; many Japanese and Westerners, most notably KODAMA Sakuzaemon, stole buried bones and items later. This is why many Ainu don't believe archaeologists. - TAKASUGI Shinji 09:30, 2005 Apr 25 (UTC)

Religion

The portion of this article that provides a summary of the form of animism believed by native Ainu is a wretched mess combining animism, Western European polytheistic beliefs, and Christianity. The reference to 'hell' I have removed, it being the most obvious error. The 'Religion' portion still needs a lot of revision, though. 12.June.2005

Speedy tag removal

This article is clearly does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion. If you want it deleted, wait for it to get voted on at VFD. -Casito⇝Talk 19:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

VfD tag

Please leave the VfD tag (but not the other spammage) in future versions of this article until an administrator closes the VfD. Musachachado followed the nomination process correctly and the tag should remain. Fortunately, administrators can end nonsense VfD nominations early so it should be gone soon regardless. - Thatdog 19:30, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Copyright Violation

Sorry all to the VfD fiasco. This article is blatantly a copyright violation, and I think this needs to be addressed. Plus, it is an article from 1911 and thus misleading and dated.Musachachado 20:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the part that is derived from the 1911 EB is hardly au currant, and that part should (and has already to some extent) be updated. However, there clearly is no copyright violation as the 1911 EB is no longer copyrighted. The EB company knows well and does not dispute this fact, and does not at all object to the dozens of copies of 1911 EB content all over the internet.--Pharos 21:13, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree entirely that ideas about ethnic groups in 1911 are certainly not consistant with modern ideas. However, the correct thing to do in that case is to discuss the errors on the talk page (per Fg2) or edit the article to fix the errors yourself. The solution is not to crusade against the other wikipedians and call them names. Nor is it worthwhile to add a frivolous entry to the already back-logged Wikipedia:Copyright problems.

I am not an expert in U.S. or Florida copyright law (I have a distaste common law in general), so I can't say whether or not your living documents arguement has any merit. What I can say is that there are hundreds of articles in Wikipedia incorporating text from the 1911EB, and most rank-and-file editors believe that the 1911EB is PD. If you are the expert you claim to be, and Wikipedia is violating U.S. or Florida copyright law, it is a serious issue that should definitly be addressed at a higher level than simple Copyvio claims. That system is mostly for blatent plagiarism that dosn't require a law degree to identify. Wikipedia has several people dedicated to legal affairs, whom I suggest you contact If you have serious concerns that Wikipedia is systematically infringing on copyrights. I know that Danny is involved with this, and he would probably be a good person to talk to. I suggest you be polite and rational. -Casito⇝Talk 21:27, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Usage of EB 1911 is established Wikipedia policy and is not copyright violation. Review of your past contributions shows nothing but blatant vandalism and disruption, and I will assume this issue is a tongue-in-cheek attempt at the same. - Thatdog 22:12, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would not impugn my fledgling contributions to your wikipedian society. I am a new user, granted, but some of my contributions have substantially improved/expanded the articles to which they were made (see Homestead, Florida or Tupac Amaru II, for instance. Any "vandalism," I assure you, was simply done in testing various edits in this new system -- "getting my feet wet," as it were. I am sure that the administrators of this site would not appreciate you "biting the newcomers" such as you just did, and I believe you owe me an apology, sir!Musachachado 02:57, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

• It's become quite clear to me that Musachachado (obviously the same as CelineDionFan82) is not a clueless newbie, but a troll and a vandal.--Pharos 05:46, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Uh...Musachachado? What, exactly, are you referring to as your productive edits at Túpac Amaru II and Homestead, Florida? I'm not seeing anything at either place that bears your name (see Musachachado (talk · contribs))... Are you the same person as Muchosucko (talk · contribs) and/or the following anons?

• 4.171.108.20 (talk · contribs)
• 4.171.108.23 (talk · contribs)
• 4.171.117.90 (talk · contribs)
• 4.171.123.44 (talk · contribs)
• 4.174.0.193 (talk · contribs)
• 4.174.4.63 (talk · contribs)
• 4.174.6.182 (talk · contribs)
• 4.174.7.243 (talk · contribs)

Tomer ^TALK 09:49, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that was me on the Tupac Amaru II page who started the debate over whether make mention that Tupac Shakur's name was in honor of Amaru. You might have though that was 'trolling' at first glance, but in effect, my contributions DID lead to a productive expansion of the article, and now not only Tupac Shakur is mentioned, but Amaru's inspiration of many leftist/indigineous causes is included in the article, and rightfully so. Just because you might not agree with someone does not make him a "vandal." This article in question is almost 100 years old and a lazy, uninspired word-for-word copy nonetheless. We need to fix it. You don't want some middle school kid to come to Wikipedia to look up "Ainu" and come away with a slanted, dated, Edwardian racist view of the topic I take it? This is a place of debate, not an antiquarian society. Thank you. Musachachado 15:52, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

"Mongoloid, not Caucasian"

This whole section is of dubious accuracy, making sweeping statements about concepts that were debunked after, well, 1911.

Anyone want to rewrite it?

I agree. This is exactly what we're talking about. We need to rewrite this article totally. The best way to do it is delete it and start over, if you people won't snap to it.Musachachado 15:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC)