Talk:Kodomo no Jikan

Edit conflicts

No, it was a perfectly good argument. On Wikipedia, we aren't supposed to include original research, and we shouldn't assume things. Since it seems to me that you are assuming that the source is biased, you are in the wrong to change it according to how you are interpreting the information given. If you look at the reference literally, there is no reason to believe that they are biased, so you shouldn't make it seem like it is so, when that is not the case.--十八 02:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for not noticing this until now.

I am not assuming that Seven Seas is a biased source. Rather, I think that it is a plain fact.

1) Seven Seas is one party involved in this very controversial matter in the manga community.

2) Claiming that Watashiya "demanded" the title Nymphet helps Seven Seas' case.

3) Therefore, Seven Seas is a biased source.

Furthermore, the Seven Seas blog you reference doesn't even claim that Watashiya made the demand. Instead, it claims that Futabasha claims that Watashiya made the demand. Very dubious. Forweg 09:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Just because you think it's true and supply circumstancial evidence that cannot be proven does not mean you are true and that your evidence is fact. It states at WP:NOR: Articles should only contain verifiable content from reliable sources without further analysis. Content should not be synthesized to advance a position. You are clearly in violation of these two key points, and what you are doing is pushing original research into an article.--十八 09:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

One does not need proof for 2+2=4. It is fact. I would really love to hear how my three points above can be disproven.

Also, the article you link to also says "the only way to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say." That sentence wasn't adhering to what the source said. Seven Seas does not claim that that Watashiya made the demand. Instead, it claims that Futabasha claims that Watashiya made the demand. Therefore, the sentence was not adhering to what the source said. That violates Wikipedia policy.

One must analyze the sources in order to determine if they are reliable. This is a cornerstone of Wikipedia. Forweg 09:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Analyzing to determine reliability has nothing to do with original research; those two are inherently different. But onto your three points. The first two points are stated facts, sure, but the third point is making an educated inference on the supplied information. Such guessing is called circumstantial evidence and is no better than original research. You must see what I am talking about. What you're saying is "If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it's a duck", but I am saying that that thought process is not always exact. Case in point: Water is both clear, and in liquid form, but not all liquids that are clear are water, such as hydrogen peroxide or sulfuric acid; see now why your argument is flawd?. Not only that, but you cannot find a reliable source that actually states that Seven Seas was biased to say that Futabasha said the author demanded the title change, but you can find a source that states that that is exactly what happened. Look, I'm not asking you to believe it, I just want you to see that you are assuming too much, and it's not your place to assume things on Wikipedia, even if there's some circumstancial evidence to "support" your claims; Wikipedia deals with hard evidence, and you have none.

And what are you talking about when you said this: That sentence wasn't adhering to what the source said. Seven Seas does not claim that that Watashiya made the demand.? The sentence in the article was written: The English trade name was chosen to be Nymphet after the original artist requested the title and demanded its use for the English manga. That just says that artist requested the change, not that Seven Seas said she requested the change. Get your facts straight.--十八 12:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

"and 18 went en-garde! then, hai-yah! and it was all over. All that was left in its wake was destruction" Oh, on a side note - what is the "it" reffering to in 十八 first statment: "No, it was a perfectly good argument?" (presuming that the article was being voted for deletion because it was thought to be biased?) 24.19.25.118 11:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh, see the edit summaries from July 16 to July 20 between me and Forweg to see what I was referring to.

And anyway, the article wasn't being deleted because it was thought to be biased. Someone nominated it for deletion because they thought it to be non-notable; read the deletion archive at the top of this page if you want.--十八 00:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Reiji sexually abusing Rin

I'm sorry but, up until chapter 30, I have not seen what the article claims: "It is also been hinted that he has already been sexually abusing Rin"... so I'm putting the phrase under comments. Also, I think it would be smart to remove the text "As the story progresses it becomes clear that he is slowly losing his mind and is becoming increasingly delusional about someday being romantically involved with Rin" bacause, even tho it is HINTED, it is not spoken out loud. It could well lead into an unexpected answer in the manga. What I'm trying to say is... at least Reiji's part of the article seems kind of biased and uses some weasel words, so... maybe we could improve that. Guille ^.~ 02:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The only thing that could hint on 'sexually abusing' that I can think of is page 6 (116) in chapter 19, but that would really be stretching it. I'll just add an ref-needed as some anon removed your commenting and I don't want to risk a war over something like this.

Not sure about the second sentence, it seems like some times he is using Rin as a substitute for Aki; but at the same time he has also mentioned something about giving to Rin what he couldn't give Aki. Though this could of course be translations errors messing it up. I did some changes to the text, only minor stuff as I find him very sick and scary. --Execvator 01:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I deleted that " Though he is slowly losing control of his sexual urges as seen by him leaving hickeys on the back of Rin's neck." thing a couple of days ago, because I don't see Reiji leaving hickeys on Rin's neck. Somebody wrote it again, so I deleted it again. Let's discuss it here. Oh, yeah, to Haruyasha: if you are talking about last page, I dont see even one hickey. What's more, I think it's a hug. Guille ^.~ 03:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I've re-read chapter 31 a few times now and she does indeed have something that looks like a hickey (p.10, p.30). While he is the one most likely to have done it and it gets hinted at, on the last page (p.30, top-left panel), that he gave it to her; I still find it unclear whether he really is 'the guilty'.

Leaving it, as is, looks biased to me; though, I think it should be mentioned in some way, either in Rin's or Reiji's section. --Execvator 12:54, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That thing on page 30 looks like just a shadow to me. The one in page 10, how ever, I had not noticed... and it does look like a hicke. How ever, we could be wrong because... well, it looks like a hickey, but it might not be one. What if it is Aki's disease? (let's hope not... I certainly love Rin :( ). I think we should, at least, wait until it is clarified in the manga. Guille ^.~ 15:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Aki didn't have skin cancer, she had lung cancer. Anyways, since there is so much doubt about it, I'll wait for Aoki to notice the hickeys.. (Should happen in the next chapter or so.) Although the fact that Reiji is unable to hold back no longer is visible through his constant kissing. Haruyasha 02:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yay for original research and lack of 2nd/3rd party source citations! -masa ♫ 01:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Come on, we are talking about a manga here. A manga, I suppose, we all read. It is obvious we are using original research: the manga is still being serialized and the anime series is still airing, and its Wikipedia page is the best source for info about it. About the source citations... well, I don't know if they can be taken for citations, but at least we say what issues and pages are we using as sources for our arguments. And, come on, after all, we are at the talk page. Guille ^.~ (talk) 04:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I find this rather disconcerting. A number of us are currently implying that Reiji, Rin's "guardian", has already made a mark, so to speak, on his potential partner. BUT we must also take note that he is just using Rin as a "substitute" for his inability to cope with Aki's death. A vassal, in other words, of Reiji's outpouring of grief and later culpability for Aki's sudden passing.

We must stress this point. --Animeronin (talk) 07:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. From what I can tell, Kaworu Watashiya has the same mischievous streak in her that Rin Kokonoe does. She seems to enjoy playing mind games with her readers by (strongly) implying something morally or socially questionable is happening, letting the audience squirm for a while, then later revealing that the truth wasn't nearly as salacious or insidious as it initially seemed. Unfortunately, this backfired with North American audiences when she insisted on using the title Nymphet, so we've got to be extra careful not to engage in the same kind of rampant speculation that killed the English language release in the first place. Kodomo no Jikan must be redeemed, and we're just the ones to do it! :) Lunar Archivist (talk) 15:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Redeem? Sure, why not? But what we really should and are already doing, is throughly documenting it. What I was trying to tell masa is that, as far as I can see, we are all not doing such a bad job at it. Not Haruyasha nor Lunar Archivist, nor any one else. How ever... we are off track here XD, so let's go back to the KnJ "Reiji sexually abusing Ring" talk. As Haruyasha said, we should wait for the next issue (or so) to include any implications on the hickeys. If they are hickeys, we'll be told about it by our beloved (or hated, who knows?) mangaka. If they aren't, we'll be avoiding the misinformation delivery. Guille ^.~ (talk) 17:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Chapter 32 is out. How ever, there is no hickey talk what so ever... so... let's see if there is in chapter 33. Guille ^.~ (talk) 15:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Chapter 33 is out. I've lost XD Guille ^.~ (talk) 22:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no one's lost or won anything just yet. I loathe Reiji as much as the next person, but at the moment, we really don't know who's to blame for the two hickeys on Rin's neck or even if they are hickeys. All we know for certain at this point is that she has them and that she's painfully aware of the love triangle she's stuck in (she's in love with Aoki but Reiji's in love with her). I'll admit that the evidence seems pretty damning and I almost want Reiji to be guilty, but Watashiya's propensity for misdirection combined with the pervading mystery of just who the heck was taking pictures of Rin, Kuro, and Mimi from a distance with a digital camera is leaving me with some serious doubts. Hell, for all we know, it could be Rin's biological dad molesting her or something. Lunar Archivist (talk) 06:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Mh... no, it's pretty obvious. Mixing the last page on chapter 30 and the last 4 on chapter 33, you can discern it without thinking it too much. Guille ^.~ (talk) 18:26, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey, don't get me wrong, WeirdGuille, I completely agree with you. But, especially with this series, someone's gotta play the devil's advocate until the suspect is caught red-handed. ;) Lunar Archivist (talk)

They're clearly insect bites, or some kind of rash :P -masa ♫ 14:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Lunar Archivist. I don't think there's any concrete evidence that Reiji is the one making the marks on Rin. Rin has not given any response to Aoki yet and until we see a flashback of Reiji giving Rin a hickey, or Rin stating that Reiji did it, there's no proof. You could say that Rin is avoiding bathtime with Reiji because she's afraid of him molesting her, but there is another possibility. It could be that she is getting those marks from something/someone else and she is hiding them from everyone, including Reiji. Borrie (talk) 21:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Also, take note that it could have been something other than a mere "mark". We could freely speculate on things until we're damn sure, but one thing could be certain, like Borrie said: "I don't think there's any concrete evidence". Animeronin (talk) 08:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

You know what? I think you are right. I was speculating... of course, it seems obvious, but with Watashiya-sensei it is speculation until solid proofs are given... so yeah, I'm removing the hickeys again. We'll have to wait until the last week of february to maybe be sure, tho... Guille ^.~ (talk) 19:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a wild guess by suggesting that it may be the school principal responsible for the hickeys on Rin's neck. In the prototype version of the manga, he was definitely a pedophile and, aside from Mimi Usa's being a cutter, this is one of two major ideas from the precursor series that hasn't been incorporated into "official" canon yet. Like WeirdGuille said, though, we'll have to wait until February 22nd, at least, to find out... Lunar Archivist (talk) 19:29, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

CP as a category

OK... I don't know how much time it has been there and who put it there, but... why is the article categorized as Child Porn?! I mean, come on, that's obviously biased... so, I deleted the category markup. Guille ^.~ 21:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

"Child pornography" tag was added again by a random individual and removed again by Juhachi. Lunar Archivist (talk) 14:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed the tag yet again. Is there any way to lock the categorization section down and prevent random people from adding this tag? This is getting really annoying now. Lunar Archivist (talk) 17:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No, there isn't. You can add in a hidden note asking to not include the category though.--十八 01:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have a "better" idea. Why don't we request that this article be semi-protected, as I have seen numerous vandalisms being done on the article page. --Animeronin 07:13, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't exactly agree with that. Looking at the last 50 edits in the history, only today was there a single IP who vandalized the page several times before being blocked, and aside from that, there really isn't much else recent vandalism, so I doubt an admin would protect the page at this moment in time.--十八 07:28, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

While I personally wish we could do what Animeronin suggested, Juhachi's technically correct. But it's extremely annoying to have random people like 194.83.68.131 put the "child pornography" classification back in, reversing the "deneutralization" of the Lolicon as a storytelling device section by 4.180.36.76, and then the article's vandalism by 83.19.45.10. All these changes for the worse did take place within the last 50 edits or so. Is there any kind of middle ground for protecting sections of this article or making it harder to edit by just anyone? Lunar Archivist 00:21, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it works like that. If a page gets semi-protected, then IPs and newly-made accounts cannot edit a page for the time being. If it gets fully protected, no one can edit it; there's no specifics for sections.--十八 00:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, 83.19.45.10 is back vandalizing the page again. Can we get protected status now or at least get his IP address permanently banned? Lunar Archivist (talk) 14:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Well that anonymous seems to have a skewed or rather trollish behavior. I second the IP ban and the protected status. --Animeronin (talk) 19:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Added a commentary there. It asks who ever is adding the category to come here first. Let's hope for an explanation this time... hopefully... Guille ^.~ (talk) 04:27, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed. But when someone replaces the sum content of the article with the phrase "FUCKIN PEDO ANIME", I think his opinion of the series is pretty clear... ^_^; Lunar Archivist (talk) 14:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

A nobody wondering?

i was just wondering and wanted to ask the kind people who update the character bio, that knowing that the teacher and Rin are like main - main characters, but how come there is not much information about them, while the others who are less shown have a bit more, to way more one them. i mean if there is a rule to this king of thing let me know so i learn something new,anyways was just wondering. Chimasternmay 22:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Users have just contributed more to some characters and little to none; if you read/watch the series, feel free to add in the bios.--十八 22:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality Discussion for Lolicon Section

Just for the record, I am the individual who wrote the section on "Lolicon as a storytelling device" in an attempt to counterbalance the "Controversy" section concerning the cancellation of the manga's publication as well as the remainder of the article and provide context. The emphasis in this Wikipedia entry is placed on the same area as the controversy surrounding it, namely the relationship between Daisuke Aoki and Rin Kokonoe, which does a disservice to the manga considering that the story has advanced beyond that and become a complex psychological study of the main characters and their interactions with one another rather than an ad nauseum rehashing of the idea of a naive grade school teacher being sexually harrassed by a coquettish, mischievous student of his.

I know that neutrality is paramount at Wikipedia, but the "radioactivity" of the subject matter at hand has most people who read the short summary of the series automatically assume the worst, and this can only be counterbalanced by providing context, which is what I have tried to do. Lunar Archivist 04:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I get the feeling that when you say 'those people', it automatically means Americans. Aren't they always the ones responsible for neutrality disputes? I believe so. Haruyasha 11:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I am American and I personally am full for talk of this kind. If I may say most Americans consider anything sexual (lolicon or not) to be taboo in public culture. I would say this is also true of western europe as well (notably where the catholic church presides). If people would take a moment to read their history books up until 100 years ago, sometimes a little more, a manga with similiar situtations to which are in kodomo no jikan would be considered close to normal. (I am not refering to teacher-student, but to older man-quite young girl.) Ergzay 23:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I personally wonder how much confirmation bias, social convention, pressure to conform, hypocrisy, and ego have contributed to contemporary popular opinion on this subject, to be honest.

Aside from the inexplicable double standard that exists today when it comes to the pairings Ergzay mentioned - if the male is the older partner, he is universally condemned because he "clearly" forced himself upon and took advantage of a helpless young female, while a young male getting involved with an older female, while not exactly encouraged, has an almost mythical "rite of passage" status associated with it - there's also media sensationalization to consider. I remember being extremely irritated by Dateline's interview with Mary Kay Letourneau after she was sent to jail, not because I sympathized with her position at the time (I didn't) but because it was painfully clear from the line of questioning, the reporter's voiceovers and interpretations of her reactions, and the way the footage was edited together that they were trying to hammer home the point to the audience (and possibly Letourneau herself) that she was insane, mentally ill, a sick sexual deviant, etc. rather than a victim of her own poor judgement. Hardly objective journalism at work there. Then there's the surreal stuff like the case of Traci Lords, where you wonder whether her claim that she was drugged and forced to peform in adult movies at the age of 15 is completely true or whether she's retroactively trying to distance herself from some bad, embarassing decisions she made as a teenager by using the porn industry as a convenient scapegoat. No clue on how to call that one. There's evidence to suggest that the poor impulse control of adolescents has a biological component, but the brain doesn't exactly have an "adult" setting that's magically switched on the moment someone turns 18. The age of transition from childhood to adulthood is completely arbitrary.

My personal opinion on the matter and lack of a relevant academic background makes me woefully unqualified to suggest a solution, but one possibility that comes to mind would be for someone to devise a kind of "cognitive development test" for children and adolescents, something akin to those psychological examinations to determine where someone is mentally competant to stand trial or whether a minor should be tried as an adult for a serious crime like murder. This would create a distinction between "biological age" and "mental age" and allow for a better measure of the degree to which a minor is responsible for his or her actions. Of course, how to create such a test, not to mention ensure that the results aren't influenced by pressure from peers, parents, authority figures, etc. is another question entirely. Lunar Archivist 20:36, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I refuse to get sucked into international politics and finger-pointing. The last thing we need is a "The neutrality of this section is disputed." tag to be added to the talk page for an article whose neutrality is being disputed. ;) What personally annoys me is that I spent several days trying to make the section I wrote as neutral and ambiguous as possible. Instead of going the "pedophile apologist" route by dismissing any questionable scenes as figments of a reader's dirty-minded imagination or their looking too much into things, I acknowledged their existence directly and either linked to articles explaining their purpose in the narrative or provided examples to dispel purely negative interpretations and balance things out, leaving readers to come to their own conclusions with the new information provided. I purposely avoided touching any issues that could be even remotely linked to an opinion, such as:

• The unlikelihood that a female manga author would purposely create a series design to sexually objectify female children and condone their sexual exploitation or abuse.
• The fact that Rin appears to have a pretty "empowered" mindset for an alleged sexual abuse victim, since she only displays as much or as little of herself when and if she feels likes it and has shown great resistence to being forced to expose herself against her will (like when Aoki tried to remove her top when she dressed herself up as a boy).
• Omitting any condemnation/justification for Reiji's admittedly creepy behavior and changing the term "inappropriate conduct" to "grossly inappropriate sexual conduct" in light of the hickey incident.
• Mentioning or passing judgement on scenes I was personally shocked by or considered to be in poor or questionable taste, such as the mock-condom scene, the water fountain "blowjob", the gynasium crotch-rubbing fiasco, the breast-feeding scene, etc.

And, even after doing all this, I still got slapped with the damn tag... Lunar Archivist 17:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that part as an non-neutral one. When I noticed it, I really liked it just because of that. If anyone (or at least the person who tagged it) could tell us why was the tag placed, I'd really appreciate it. How ever, unless it happens, I'm motioning for its (the tag's) removal (if it is of any use). Guille ^.~ 04:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the compliments and kind words of support, Guille. As for why the tag was placed, I suspect it was done for the same reason that the article was briefly classified under the "child pornography" umbrella and the ones cited in the section I wrote. The manga's viewpoint of child sexuality (however much the story may distort reality overall) is unpopular and makes it a prime target for censorship. It's kind of ironic that the section is proving one side of the argument just by being there... :) Lunar Archivist 17:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I for one am also concerned about the tag. I've read your discussion, Lunar Archivist, as well as to how you presented your case analysis on the whole controversy. In any case, it would seem the tag was placed in light of knee-jerk reactions of people who are new to the concept and will agree with whatever "group" there is that tries to present the issue in a different light. This, of course, got me concerned. --Animeronin 14:41, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Animeronin. As I mentioned to Guille in my previous post on the matter, I find it kind of ironic that the section I wrote to try and balance out the article and bring neutrality to the discussion concerning the series in general is itself proving to be mildly controversial.

I'm no social psychologist, anthropologist, or anything of the sort, but I think the fact that so many people's feathers are ruffled by the author's "audacity" to not only suggest that a May-December romance - perhaps closer to February in this case ;) - as extreme as this might even exist within the series but also that it could be completely devoid of the stereotypical emotional manipulation, advantage-taking, and coercion often associated with such relationships involved speaks volumes. (The whole "evil adult seduces innocent child" cliché was actually used in the non-canonical precursor to the series of the same name, where Rin outmaneuvers the pedophile principal of her school in a sting operation, using herself as bait, when Aoki initially dismisses her suspicions based on her established sexual mischievousness.) Oddly enough, the fact that the characters are actively seen struggling to reconcile their feelings with social expections, norms, and acceptability - Aoki actively resists all of Rin's flirtations and Reiji, creepy and delusional though he may be, at least has enough self-restraint to "wait" until Rin comes of age before making a move on her - seems to be lost on a lot of people.

I suspect that the "real" issue people have with this series is that it subtly raises questions about something Rin herself touches upon when she tearfully comments at one point that, "Aoki only pays attention to me because I'm a child, but he also doesn't pay attention to me because I'm a child." There's this dichotomy in child psychology today where, while the welfare and emotions of a child are considered extremely important, there's this tendency to call into question, if not downright dismiss or condemn, a child's interpretations of his or her own feelings if they deviate significantly from what adults believe the "expected" or "proper" response should be. Rin is this dilemma personified: she has the feelings of an adult female (what Aoki referred to at one point as her "premature heart"), certainly has the sexual knowledge of an adult female, and definitely has more life experience than most of the adults in the series due to the losses and hardships she's endured in her nine brief years of existence. But she is a child and has the mind of one and thus lacks the level of cognitive development required to properly and constructively deal with it all. So she engages in "black box thinking" by attempting to make her teacher fall in love with her based solely on her knowledge of sexual mechanics from various dubious sources. This strategy is akin to trying to develop a romantic relationship with someone of the opposite sex based solely on information gleamed from hardcore porn movies: doomed to spectacular failure. What makes Rin's situation especially tragic is that her love for Aoki appears to be genuine, but no one takes her seriously because of her age, causing her endless grief and frustration.

In any case, Matthew Skala's critique of vox populi child sexuality and the controversy surrounding this series that I linked on the main article page summarizes the points I've argued here a lot more clearly and concisely.

I realize that this lengthy post is out of place in a Wikipedia discussion section. My decision to write all this out here in spite of that was to demonstrate to anyone at odds with my section that I really did put a lot of thought and effort into maintaining neutrality despite my clear bias on this series and its issues, no matter what they may think. *gets off soapbox* Lunar Archivist 19:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

So... time has passed, and no one has made a stand in favor of the neutrality tag. Shall we give it a date of expiration? What about november 16 (3~4 days from now, more than a week since I asked for a reason)? Guille ^.~ 02:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the suggested date. Anyone else? --Animeronin 07:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, so it's time, right? I just deleted the tag. If anyone ever needs to place it again, use this section to give your reason. If you see the tag placed without a reason... please, remove it. Guille ^.~ (talk) 03:25, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Ahh...sweet, sweet vindication at last! Thanks, Guille. :) Lunar Archivist (talk) 15:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for that "lengthy post". I found it very educational and entertaining. Posts such as these are the reason why i keep on reading wikipedia talkpages. Rock on! Kratosxxx234 (talk) 15:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.39.54.152 (talk)

Rin and Kuro's Level of Sexual Knowledge: Inappropriate or Not?

After having this independently edited out by both Servant Saber and Blue Eyes Gold Dragon, I've decided to set up this discussion topic here in response and have restored the point in the article for the time being.

I'm not quite sure how this point advances a point of view or is in any way inaccurate. If Rin and Kuro's level of sexual knowledge or behavior were in any way typical or representative of that of a significant number of nine-year-olds in the real world, I doubt that Kodomo no Jikan would've become the lightning rod for controversy that it has. Also, I don't think that anyone can debate that the series is "a comedy aiming to entertain the audience by means of an unlikely and improbable situation with verbal humor that includes sexual innuendo and word play", a description which fits the current Wikipedia definition of a farce.

Personally, I see this as a non-issue and vote to keep it in. Any opinions either way would be welcome. Lunar Archivist (talk) 15:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

"Inappropriate" is a word that reeks of POV, moral and personal values, no matter whose. Go for "unusual" if you insist on keeping it. --Saber^Excalibur! 09:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess it really just depends on whose standpoint you're referring to an "inappropriate". Just my two cents. --Animeronin (talk) 10:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

See, now I understand what you meant by POV Servant Saber. A short comment describing the edit didn't quite make what you were trying to say clear to me. :)

The word "inappropriate" has been removed and replaced with the more neutral "broad", which describes the situation just as well. Lunar Archivist 14:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

dont children get sex ed at age 7? --Ricky326123 03:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Not in my school. Sex ed started around Grade 5 or so. As with most things academic, your mileage may vary. Lunar Archivist 00:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It depends on your govenment (mileage?) dont know what Japan's age for learning about sex is. even so i knew about sex and stuff from older kids when i was at school maybe thats how Kokonoe learned?--Ricky326123 10:54, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The "mileage" reference was a bit of a joke, though the rest of the comment wasn't. :)

While I'm not debating the fact that children seen to be getting information about sex earlier and earlier these days, Rin and Kuro make reference to some pretty bizarre/obscure stuff that I think goes a bit beyond what schools teach or even grade schoolers who know all about the birds and the bees would be familiar with. I mean, honestly, when was the last time you remember fetishes like hadaka apron or nyotaimori being discussed in sex ed class? Would've made school a lot more interesting, I can tell you that... ;) Lunar Archivist 15:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

...and wouldn't make the whole Population Explosion debacle more or less interesting? :P Still, though... --Animeronin 17:07, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Censoring on dvd version

there is no Censoring on the DVD version as seen [[1]] here and [[2]]here --Blue-EyesGold Dragon 10:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Whom has lung cancer

I think that sentence is a bit ungrammatical as 'whom' is the objective case of the nominative 'who' and in this case it is clearly the subject of the sentence and of the verb finite verb 'has'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.84.222.243 (talk) 14:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Gender-Reversed "Kodomo no Jikan" Parody

I realize this isn't quite what the talk page was intended for, but this was too good to pass up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/lunar_archivist/snh02mf9.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v407/lunar_archivist/snh03dn4.png
Kaworu Watashiya decided to parody herself by creating a reversed-gender version of the series as a (very) short story. Enjoy! :) Lunar Archivist (talk) 05:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Haha oh wow :) You just made my day! --Koheiman (talk) 11:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Article Rewrite and Manga Information

I was wondering if any of the "regular" editors of this page - such as Juhachi, WeirdGuille, and Animeronin - would mind if I started rewriting the article and episode summaries a little to make the tone more consistent throughout. Also, do you know of any way we could add short summaries of the manga chapters somewhere in this article or create a separate page (assuming this is even a good idea in the first place)? Lunar Archivist (talk) 05:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind a rewrite (as I believe this article needs one), but as for the manga chapters, you could create something like List of Yotsuba&! chapters, but they have summaries of the volumes with a list of the chapters, not summaries of individual chapters. Do it well enough, and you may even get it up to Featured List status.--十八 06:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't mind either, Lunar Archivist. You seem to understand the context behind the series better than we do. Also, this article really needs a rewrite, as it's biased enough as it is by people unfamiliar with the intention of the manga-ka herself. --Animeronin (talk) 16:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your votes of confidence, guys. However, I do object to your statement, Animeronin, about my understanding the context of the series better than you (not in a bad way, though; I appreciate the compliment). While I'm trying to view the series objectively, I'm a fan of it and thus biased to a certain degree when it comes to interpretation, so it helps if all of you keep me grounded. :) Plus, add to that the fact that Wikipedia is a group effort and this article is "our" baby since we've all invested quite some time in its maintenance, and I'd feel like an ass going around and editing stuff without feedback and/or permission.

I've officially started on the rewrites and have complete the Introduction, Plot, Media, and Controversy sections thus far. I'll start on the Characters and Episodes soon. By the way, please ignore any unsourced statements for the moment. I'll add links to the relevant news articles and links when I get home later today and have full Internet access. And feel free to tell me whether I'm making this article better or worse overall! :) Lunar Archivist (talk) 20:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I've also been thinking on asking you folks to improve the article (hive mind)... mostly because I don't want it to be a starter-class anymore... at least a B-class. I'd do it myself, but I kind of suck with english ^^ (most of my edits here are proofreading for fakes and adding new stuff... and then what I write usually gets fixed by someone because I suck at writing in english :( ).

So, of course I support you, Lunar. I would encourage you to read the following articles first, tho: First of all, the five pillars of Wikipedia. Second, the manual of style for anime-manga. Third, the Article Development tutorial. Oh, and what the article would need to get a better score on the Assessment Scale.

I know that last paragraph seems kind of smug, but it's really what we need to get a better article. Thanks for taking the initiative, Lunar ^^.

Oh, and because I just saw some stuff that should not be on a talk page a couple of titles back, I'll spam a Kodomo no Jikan imageboard, if any of you want to hang around there: http://www.4chan.org.uk/KnJ/ Guille ^.~ (talk) 23:13, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, Guille. I'll keep an eye on that board. :D

I see Juhachi's also been busy editing this article. :) Just a quick list of some changes I made:

• In the Media section, I removed Tokai TV from the list of broadcasters because I reviewed the news articles and nowhere is it mentioned that they actually aired the show. They were in the middle of the ax murderer controversy and were trying to convince other stations to follow their lead.
• Added information on the manga prototype and its release date. I got the dates it appeared from the Japanese Wikipedia entry on "Kodomo no Jikan", but since my knowledge of the langauge is laughably nonexistent, I suggest that some double-check to verify it beyond the shadow of a doubt. I'm 99% sure the information is correct, though.
• Added the reasoning behind TV Saitama's decision to cancel the show. In this context, I kind of understand their decision, although I don't support it.

Well, that's it for now. I'll see about reworking the character profiles sometime soon. :) Lunar Archivist (talk) 16:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The dates in the manga section are correct, and by that I mean, they match the information supplied on the Japanese wiki. Of course, we have to put faith into that info since otherwise we don't have anything. As for my future contribs to this article, I think I've done most of what I can do via major contribuations. Anything else at this point will most likely be copyedits and fighting vandalism. Although if any reception is ever found, we may just get this up to GA status, but as of yet, there is nothing I've found in terms of how it's been receievd by the general public for the manga or anime versions.--十八 17:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the verification, Juhachi. I've finished cleaning up the article, best as I am able, and have rewritten the mini-profiles for Aoki, Mimi, and Kuro to round them out better. I plan to finish off the others by the end of the week and add ones for Aki, Shirai, and Oyajima so that everyone's covered. Lunar Archivist (talk) 20:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Question: You say that 'everyone' will be covered, but at the Japanese Wiki article on the series, there are three more there that won't be covered here: Nakamura, Nyaa, and Chuck. Now, I'm not sure if a cat, or stuffed bear deserve entries, though they could be inserted otherwise into text, like saying that 'Rin owns a stuffed bear named Chuck...' and 'Rin feeds a stray cat at her school named Nyaa' or something similar. As for Nakamura, it might be worthwhile to add him in due to understanding why Aoki comes in to be 3-1's new teacher.--十八 23:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure about Nakamura...after the first chapter of the series, I don't remember him even being mentioned again at all. I guess we could create a section for major and minor characters? Lunar Archivist (talk) 01:20, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Or try to put him into context as well, like in Aoki's description put "Aoki replaced the previous teacher of class 3-1 named Nakamura. He was fired due to...", or something like that.--十八 07:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do. Right now, I'm doing a quick rereading of the entire series in order to finish off the character profiles and start work on the manga chapters list. Oh, and I'm going to temporarily remove the alleged release date of the final DVD volume later today because it doesn't make any sense. Since there are two episodes per DVD (making for a total of six volumes) and they're being released monthly starting in December 2007, it makes no sense that the last one is scheduled to appear in March 2008. May 2008 is more likely. Lunar Archivist (talk) 16:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

It is May; I accidentally wrote March instead.--十八 20:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm being helpful (because I basically don't understand japanese), but here's the official DVD page: http://www.kojika-anime.com/dvd.html (but it looks better if you go first to http://www.kojika-anime.com/products.html ) Guille ^.~ (talk) 20:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Great! So that's settled, Juhachi. Sorry if I unintentionally sounded harsh before. I'm in a time crunch at work and that makes it hard to proofread comments properly. Two and a half hours and I'm back home to knock down another ten chapters... Lunar Archivist (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

List of manga chapters

Quick update: in keeping with Guille's suggestion about improvements and moving things towards A class, I've started work on a list of Kodomo no Jikan chapters based on the general style of the Yotsuba! one. I'll eventuallly overhaul this article and the one with anime episode summaries in a similar manner and possibly split the characters off into their own article so we can devote more time and room to them. Opinions, feedback, ideas, etc. are welcome. :) Lunar Archivist (talk) 06:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, you got the years wrong by 10 years. Heisei started in 1989, so Heisei year 5 is actually 1995, not 2005; I changed all the years to 10 years prior in the manga chapters list to reflect this, and altered the context in the section about the canon chronology to have this make sense. Furthermore, I copyedited the lists themselves, adding in {{Nihongo}} templates that weren't there, and de-bolding those things that were unnecessarily bolded; and added the appropriate category. Aside from all that, the list is ready to move on.

But, please, do not split the characters into individual articles until suffiecient real-world secondary sources can be found on them. You can create a List of Kodomo ni Jikan characters article, but don't go and create individual artilces on them yet; there's been major strife related to this in WP:Anime if you weren't aware, so I wouldn't recommend it (and I would personally be very against it).

Also, can you clarify by what you mean by "I'll eventuallly overhaul this article and the one with anime episode summaries in a similar manner"; just what exactly are you planning to overhaul?--十八 09:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey Juhachi, looks like we unintentionally got our wires crossed on a couple of points, so let me clarify them since we actually agree on most of them in spite of what it sounds like. :)

I reverted your changes of the years back to what I originall wrote. The Heisei 5 thing was a typo on my part. It was supposed to be Heisei 15, which is 2003. So that's been fixed. I may have accidentally reverted some additional changes you've made as well by accident, such as writing "page" and "chapter" small and writing out numbers (though I'm not really sure why you made those changes). Don't worry, I'll look them over and redo them when I have time. Please hold off redoing them until I've finished writing up the summaries for all four tankoubon so we can fix everything at once. I've also cleaned up the table code because a few important bits got accidentally deleted between our revision and cleanup attempts.

As for splitting characters into individual articles, I have no such intention. We don't have enough material on anyone to merit that. I was only considering doing what you said: making a "List of Kodomo no Jikan" characters with everyone on it and keeping the bio stubs in the current article where they are. And "overhauling" was too strong a word. By that I mean making sure that all the articles we have are similar in tone and are consistent with each other. Not trashing it all and rewriting from scratch. ^_^; Lunar Archivist (talk) 04:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You wrote: I may have accidentally reverted some additional changes you've made as well by accident, such as writing "page" and "chapter" small and writing out numbers (though I'm not really sure why you made those changes). I thought it was obvious: I made those changes for the good of article per many statutes in WP:MOS and WP:DATE; don't think I did them just for no reason. I added back in all those copyedits while keeping the tweaks you added, but also kept in the fourth volume as I see no reason why it shouldn't already be in there, seeing as you already went through the trouble of writing it all out only to revert yourself. And two other little things: you don't have to put the kanji for Heisei or Negima!: Magister Negi Magi since they have thier own articles, and it becomes too much if every foreign term has kanji next to it. If anyone wants to know the kanji for either of those, it only takes a single click on their articles to find this out; not to mention that their kanji won't help the KnJ chapters article in any way. Only add in kanji if it serves a reasonable purpose.

And I'm sorry for not waiting like you asked, but when it comes to having many constructive copyedits that took me a fair amount of time to do, and then have them reverted, I can't help myself but fix mistakes as soon as they crop up, so it'd be a bother for me to have to wait; if you haven't noticed this about me on Wiki, I tend to like doing things right away, and I rarely wait or draw out important edits.--十八 08:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. The only reason I reverted in the first place was because I neglected to check if you or anyone else had edited the page in the interim before copy/pasting all the writing I'd done first and I didn't want to come off like an inconsiderate jerk for something I'd accidentally done so I reverted it temporarily and planned to fix it later since it was my screw-up and therefore my responsibility. As for some of the changes you made, the page and chapter numbers I can understand since you apparently know Wikipedia style rules better that I do, but you also wrote "grade 1-1" in small letters, which doesn't make much sense to me at all. I do appreciate your work, though. Thanks. :)

As for my request to wait, that was more to avoid the possibility of inconsistent capitalization. Also, the list of chapters unpublished in takoubon form might end up being superfluous. I've already created a Volume 5 write-up for the existing chapters with "not yet released" and "to be announced" entries for the ISBN and release date slots, respectively. Lunar Archivist (talk) 00:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all let me clarify this: grade, along with page, volume, and chapter (all of which had been capitalized in a previous verison) are not proper nouns, so they do not deserve to be capitalized; it's just standard English. Second, I was merely copying the "unpublished chapters" list from List of Yotsuba&! chapters, but if you already have something in the works for volume 5, that would work too (probably better actually).--十八 02:23, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with the superfluous chapters part. It's good someone put that up there. :)

As for capitalization and spelling, I'll let you handle it. However, I would very much appreciate it if you would not edit my table code any further. I spent a long, long time getting it to look just right and every time it's edited by someone other than me, the spacing, the line breaks, sometimes even the cells, everything gets messed up, and it's getting pretty frustrating to have to go back and fix it all the time. Do what you want with grammar, spelling, etc. but please leave my poor table code alone from now on. -_-; Lunar Archivist (talk) 03:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I cannot do that. This is not "your" code or "your" table; you may have started it, but that does not mean any hill of beans on this Wikipedia according to WP:OWN. Furthermore, your removal of the running numbers list I had installed I do not agree with since other similar (Featured) lists at List of Yotsuba&! chapters and List of Naruto chapters (Part I) have a running number line which correspond to the chapters, instead of starting back at number 1 with each volume. And frustration, I'm sad to say, is apart of the game. I get frustrated on a daily basis on this Wikipedia, as do countless other editors; it just something we have to live with. I'll tend to leave the table code in more capable hands unless I can do it myself, but otherwise I'm here to make sure that the article stays consistent with other featured examples, while conforming to guidelines set out at WP:MOS or what not.--十八 04:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

You're right. It's not "my" code or "my" table. It's free to edit by anyone. But I have the right to do exactly what you're doing: making sure the article is as good a quality as it can be. And when someone goes in and consistently edits code without consideration about how it's going to affect other aspects of that same code and the end result looks in some ways worse than what preceded it, then it's my obligation to make sure my concerns are addressed. For comparison:

Your old version: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_Kodomo_no_Jikan_chapters&oldid=184886281

My current version: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_Kodomo_no_Jikan_chapters&oldid=184916686

Check out the entries for "Chapters", "General timeframes", and "Specific timeframes" in your version. Your addition of the running numbers list fixed the chapter problem and made the "Class Period" numbers match the chapter ones. And good eye on spotting that, by the way, because I missed it. But because you didn't remove or edit the break tags after adding the running numbers list, the spacing and line breaks between the three columns became completely inconsistent with one another. I was trying to get the entries in each column to line up as much as possible under the given circumstances. And then there's this older one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_Kodomo_no_Jikan_chapters&oldid=184648706

In this one, you edited the "ISBN" column layout to create two rows and ISBN-10 and ISBN-1 subcolumns. That was fine. But doing so completely messed up the placement of the "Release Date" header relative to the other two.

I was trying to be diplomatic before and I hate seeming like a demanding jerk, but I also can't let messed-up spacing and layouts like this fly, either. In the current version of the page as of this writing, I've managed to work around your ordered numbers list and fix everything, so the table code is fine now and we can all be friends again. Lunar Archivist (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I can respect your views on the table, and now I see why we are in disagreement. You must be using some other browser than IE or MSN (I use MSN to browse Wiki because I like how it renders it), because when I compare the current version of the list of how it is viewable on MSN and how is viewable on Firefox (which is what I use to browse everything except Wiki), I find a stark difference in how the chapters line up. I suggest you see for yourself to make sure, and then look at my version of the two you pointed out above in IE and see how the lines all nicely match up with each other just as your current version does in whatever browser you're using (which I am positive isn't IE/MSN or else we wouldn't be having this tiny disagreement on how the chapters line up). I was merely trying to align the chapters, but I was unaware that there'd be a discrepency between how they are aligned on IE/MSN and how they'd be aligned for another browswer since, as I said, I only use MSN for all my Wiki browsing (aside from the Japanese Wiki, but that's because of a translation Firefox extension I use to translate text). Of course, I am also aware that this problem is also easily recified by the slight alteration in the text size in IE/MSN to make it one level smaller, which corresponds to the default text size of Firefox (IE/MSN on default has larger text, not by much, but there's enough of a difference to cause problems like this).

Either way, now that I know of this fact, I'll be more careful if I edit the table code, and I'll make sure to double check any additions in Firefox to make sure, though I doubt there's much else I would want to do regarding the code anyway. Glad we've finally come to an understanding; I can now check KnJ off my "gives me Wikistress" list (kidding). :P Actually, you know, that might be a funny thing to make. Every time an article starts giving me some Wikistress, I'll add it to the list, and when the dispute is overwith, I'll cross it off. I wonder how long it'll be...: User:Juhachi/wikistress; congrats on being the first on the list; you should consider it an honor (lol).

And, heads up, if you haven't realized it yet, there is an ongoind discussion at WT:ANIME#Discussion of format for Lists of chapters which will most likely eventually put out a real template for chapter lists, much in the same form of {{Japanese episode list}} does for anime episode lists, so sooner or later, the table code will have to go. Kind of sucks considering the work you put into it, but it was bound to happen eventually.--十八 07:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, if it goes and is replaced by something better, I don't mind. I just want it to look as good as it possible can until that point in time. And let's hope that my creation of the "List of Kodomo no Jikan characters" page didn't give too much Wikistress. I'll start polishing the rough spots in the main article and the "List of Kodomo no Jikan episodes" pages so we can get everything bumped up to B class before going any farther. Lunar Archivist (talk) 00:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

What the holy hell is this?

I would like to thank this series, its fans, and the diligent editors of this article, particularly the section on lolicon, for dispelling my irrational enthusiasm for unlimited freedom of speech once and for all. Enjoy your oversexed preteens, gentleman, and never reveal yourself to me in public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.70.178.165 (talk) 10:49, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

"Oversexed preteens"? Since when is the story revolving around that notion? I'd advise you, anonymous commenter, like what Guille said, don't judge the book by its cover. --Animeronin (talk) 17:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Please remain civil in your comments. If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all.--十八 11:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

the story isnt about lolicon its a sad story about a girl who's mother died--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 14:41, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll take this opportunity to ask you to read the (whole) manga, at least, before judging it (and the anime series it spawned). Also, if you have not taken the time to read the whole discussion, don't judge the editors just for trying to make the article follow a neutral point of view in it. Guille ^.~ (talk) 17:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I always find it amusing how the "moral degenerates" like us are never the ones hiding behind the anonymous IP addresses. :)

As a note to the commenter: it's apparent that you've completely missed the point if the "Lolicon as a storytelling device" section. This series, because of its very subject matter, has become a lightning rod for controversy and the minute anyone hears the plot, they immediately jump to erroneous conclusions. That entire section was added to this article in order to address and dispel unfounded rumors and claims that have been hounding the series since it first entered the spotlight in a professional, neutral, unbiased manner befitting an encyclopedia. Rest assured that, if genuine examples of child molestation or sexual abuse ever surface in the series, the section will most definitely be overhauled to explicitly mention it.

The List of Kodomo no Jikan characters gives a general overview of the first 33 chapters of the series. As anyone who's read the entire thing through will be able to tell, the whole "pedophile" angle is about as central to the plot as the copious amounts of fanservice in Love Hina is to its plot. Lunar Archivist (talk) 01:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

when people hear the plot people think the Aoki is molesting rin and the its a hentai-loli series--Blue-EyesGold Dragon 01:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

...and that is an unfortunate knee-jerk reaction, I'm afraid. :( --Animeronin (talk) 05:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This show is the most DISGUSTING thing I have ever heard about! It should be banned from every country on Earth. This show is just another way for people to watch and read child porn and the person who made this should be ashamed of themselves and commit suicide!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.251.236.91 (talk) 23:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Ashamed of themselves and commit suicide? Can't she just do one or the other? Also, there's far worse out there than this :P -masa ♫ 01:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)