Talk:Syrian Malabar Nasrani

No evidence for the early St.Thomas christians and The arrival of St.Thomas to Kerala

No Sangha literature of any other Dravidian source indicates the presence of Christians in the early centuries after Christ. Even if they had survived they were not known to local Dravidian people who were predominantly Jains and Buddhists not Hindus as the Syrian Christians assert. Namboothiris were not present in that era. Now safely christians assert that they are Brahmin converts. Nelkinda (talk) 15:07, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone believes that they were Brahmin converts within their fold anymore.Nambo (talk) 00:44, 18 January 2008 (UTC).

Nasrani and Saint Thomas christians

I'm by no means an expert, but I'd think, that Nasrani should either be merged with Saint Thomas Christians or with Knanaya. --Pjacobi 23:16, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

Why was the page on the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews removed?

I had added a section on the Nazi holocaust to this Talk page on the Nasrani community?Why was that removed?Is it because of the reluctance to accept a history of slavery that the Jews have had in past History or is it pure ignorance?There is also a general lack of acceptance amongst Christians in general that Jesus was a Jew?Why such double standards?The Namboothiri brahmin in kerala are Aryan?And they werent paraded outside of nations as slaves.I wonder what right Nasranis have to claim descent from them?There are people everywhere who has suffered and have been peasants but no one who has been paraded in public like slaves.Even the parayas and pulayas have a more respectable descent in my opinion but of course you might beg to differ in this matter?Please do not remove sections added to the article without explanations on why they were removed because this is unethical and immoral in a free world that encourages freedom of expression. And it is the saddest of realities that nations in Northern and Western Europe and elsewhere who were not ethnically Jewish fought for a Jewish Homeland in the middle ages(the crusades).I hope and pray that such wastages do not happen in the future and that there is an enlightenment in Northern Europe and a willingness to move away from CHRISTianity,because it is only too clear today that Christ was a Jew

Nasrani as an Ethnic community

You stated on the talk page of the article Nasrani that it should be merged with the pages Saint Thomas Christians or Knanaya.

No, it would be erroneous to do that. The article Saint Thomas Christians deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as a religious group and seeks to describe its religious denominations and other related aspects. While the article Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. (infact see the category in which the article Nasrani is listed at the end of that article).

In the same way that there is a significant difference between Jew and Judaism, there is a difference between Nasrani and Saint Thomas Christians. Jew deals with the entire ethnic community of the people of Jewish heritage and descent, or those people born of a Jewish mother. But Judaism is the religion followed by the ethnic community of Jewish people. The two concepts do highly overlap and are related but nevertheless they are independent in basic aspects and is treated as different.

In like manner, the nasranis is an ethnic community and in that sense a single community. However the ethnic community has various denominations as a result of the portuguese persecution. As an ethnic community they refer to themselves as Nasranis refering to the common cultural heritage and cultural tradition. However as a religious group they refer to themselves as the Mar Thoma Khristianis or in english as Saint Thomas Christians refering to the various and diverse [[[denomination]]s between them in terms of their religious tradition, despite a common ancestory of being the descendants of the early Mar Thoma church or Saint Thomas tradition of christianity.

The Knanaya people on the other hand is another denomination within the Mar Thoma church also called as (Mar Thoma khristiani) meaning Saint Thomas Christians. However they are a distinct community within the Nasrani ethnic group. Because of their long endogamous tradition.

This aspect is already written in the first paragraph of both the articles. Please read them carefully. Else this article would have been merged long back. The article Nasrani deals with the traditions of the nasrani community as an ethnic people and their present life (which has to be expanded. Robin klein 04:12, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

The above does not make sense to me!

And so doesn't:

"The early aramaic speaking 'Syriac'-Christians who came to Kerala (which already had a Jewish settlement in Kodungulloor) were Jews. This is because the identity of being Jewish is not purely religious, but hereditary; that is, anybody who is of Hebrew descent is Jewish by origin, and anybody who is born of a Jewish mother is Jewish, regardless of whether the person follows Judaism or not."

Genealogy and theology don't mix. A child is born Hebrew if his parents are Hebrew, Russian if his parents are so, but not Jewish and not Christian. Proposing that a child born to a Jew mother is Jewish, can only be accepted in religious belief or legal context but not ethnologically, likewise proposing that a Syriac Christian is in fact Jew because his great grand mother was Jewish or even Hebrew doesn't make sense in my opinion.

Hebrew is not synonym to Jew. There can be a Sioux Jew, a Han Jew a Hebrew/Semitic Jew and a Celtic Jew.

In a sense, any combination of heritage/religion/race/language, formulates a 'culture' that distinguishes a group of people, but elements of this culture are not transferred with genes as to become persistent and inherint across generations after the language, religion geography and way of life have changed. --Alif 00:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jewish identity and matrilineal tradition

Please read the article Who is a Jew. It could throw some light on this. In rabbinical tradition Jewishness is passed on through the mother to the child.

Jewish identity is not religious but rather an ethnic concept of descent, it refers to matrilineal tradition. This is a distinct concept of ethnicity and is often misunderstood in the present nation-state tradition of national identity. "Hebrew" descent refers to racial ancestory, while "Jewish" lineage refers to the matrilineal tradition. Judaism on the other hand is the religion followed by most "Jewish" people. But it is not the defining aspect of being Jewish. A person could be of Jewish lineage and follow another religion or be atheist. In either case he would still be jewish. Because he belongs to the jewish matrilineal tradition.

Christianity on the other hand is a "religious" identity, meaning anybody who believes in christianity is a christian. So a person who is of jewish lineage and who believes in christianity is Christian Jewish. Robin klein 04:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You said: "The Knanaya people on the other hand is another denomination within the Mar Thoma church also called as (Mar Thoma khristiani) meaning Saint Thomas Christians. However they are a distinct community within the Nasrani ethnic group. Because of their long endogamous tradition."

I do not know anyone who would describe the Knanaya people as part of the Mar Thoma Church. I'm sure there are a few Knanaya people (of the only 250,000 world wide) that have joined the Mar Thoma Church. But the vast majority are within either the Syrian Orthodox (Jacobite) Church or the Catholic (Malabar or RC) Church. Additionally, while the Knanayas will rightly claim their lineage starting from Palestine, it is difficult to say how much they are today a separate ethnic group. The amount of intermixing in the past several centuries with indigenous people of Kerala is far more than the Knanayas will admit. Only genetic testing can properly answer this question.

Syrian Malabari Nasranis were the loyal subjects of the Portuguese king

It is a ridiculous claim that Portuguese ever torured Syrian Christians. When Portuguese came around 1498 the Syrian Christians rallied behind the Portuguese. Soon by the early 1500s the Portuguese had dealings with all the local rulers of Kerala to get extraterritorial rights(and perhaps southern Tamil Nadu too)to make the Christians of south citizens of Portugal. From 1500s to 1675 the Syrian Christians in all the local kingdoms in Kerala, paid tax to the Portugal kings and were citizens of Portugal not Kerala. They even organised armies for Portuguese.

K.M.Panikkar Portuguese and Malabar 1929. loyal subjects of Portugal

The Mestizo and Pretos of Portuguese mixed people

AT the arrival of Portuguese the Syrian Christian population was around 20000 but soon it exploded. Quilon had around 3000 Christians. The Portuguese soldiers and officials had numerous concubines and wifes among the christians and native hindu population.Their descendents were called Mestizo. Similarly the Black slaves of the Portuguese when mixed with the native produced Pretos.These people moved to the inland Kerala where the spice was cultivated where they built huge Portuguese styled churches with Portuguese inscriptions. The Portuguese unlike the Namboothiris and Jews had Pork in their, Menu. Keralas sea shores in Quilon, Trichur and Cochin still the Mestizo descendents use Portuguese sirnames. But amazingly in the inland they completely disappeared possibly by mixing with local indian christians. By1550s the Native Syrian Nazrani Christians started having many Portuguese traits including the Roman Catholicism. Most of the early churches were either rebuilt or built by the Portuguese though the Judeo Namboothiri Chrisitians of 20th century want to give the credit to the Thekkumkurs and Vadakkumkurs. If the local kings built those churches it should have been having Indian architecture not Portuguese with Portuguese plaques. Not only Roman Catholicism was adopted by the Syrian Christians but they abandoned the Eastern Syrian church and joined the Western Orthodox church which had Greek (latin)origins and more acceptable to Portuguese. Within a matter of a decade the Eastern Church of Babylon and the Nestorian faith (founded byNestorius in 428 ad) had been abandoned completely by the Indian Christians. Some retained eastern rites while giving the allegiance to the Pope not the Eastern Church. Western Orthodox Church (Jacobite) had originally had Greek as prayer language, while in the later days Syriac translation of original Greek texts was used. The many sectos of latterday Syrian Christian churchs are synthesis of Portuguese Catholic faith and Eastern Orthodoxy.The Portuguese could be behind the great schism which converted the Eastern Chrisians of Babylon to the followeres of a latin Western Orthodox Jacobite church. Teh Prayers told in Malayalam were originally Greek texts translated to Syriac and then to Malayalam and thus have a latin Charecter. The Roman Catholic church, including RCSC was definitly the handywork of Portuguese though isolated churches allegedly existed in Quilon as early as 1200s. There is no evidence of conflict of interests till the end of 16th century. Even the Koonan kurisu declaration was done quite late in the Portuguese period almost ten years before their exit by dutch. The declaration was done in a Portuguese territory by the then Portuguese subjects.

Nelkinda (talk) 15:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Persecution by Portuguese

It has been claimed that the Portuguese persecuted the Nasrani. Yet no evidence of that claim was brought forward. How many Nasrani were killed or imprisoned by the Portuguese? Do we know the identity of anyone was killed or imprisoned by the Portuguese? Why were they killed or imprisoned by the Portuguese? Was this merely the result of military and imperial ambition, or was there more to it?

The only evidence presented is that a few books were banned; and the Synod of Diamper made some changes to the Divine Liturgy of Addai and Mari. It is clear that Aleixo de Menezes was motivated by misguided zeal. It is clear that a schism was the result. But that hardly seems to justify the term persecution.

--Sophroniscus 23:35, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

References of Nasrani persecution

The Nasrani people along with the Malabari Jews were definitely persecuted by the portuguese. Here are some references of Nasrani persecution from the texts of H. H. Meyers, Benjamin George Wilkinson, Ph. D. and others. The links to these texts are also provided.

"The Portuguese not only persecuted and killed all the bishops as they came from Antioch but their metran .... ..... And those Syrians who opposed his designs were persecuted and put to death." ("The Syrian Christians of Malabar" p.23).

see here: http://www.present-truth.org/Bible-Battle/inquisitive-3.htm

"The Portuguese also inaugurated slave trade by seizing able-bodied men and women ..... .... slave market in Goa." ("The Syrian Christians of Kerala", 1963, p.31). by S.C. Pothan

See here: http://www.present-truth.org/Bible-Battle/inquisitive-4.htm#CHAPTER

"Besides hunting down heretics, Jews, new Christians, and all who were accused of Judaizing (that is, conforming to the ceremonies of the Mosaic law, ..... ...... the Goanese Inquisitors also replenished their dungeons with persons accused of magic and sorcery." from The Syrian Church in India, by Rae p. 200.

see here: http://www.giveshare.org/churchhistory/truthtriumphant/chapter20.html

Robin klein 15:18, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I shall take a look at it. As I said, I am basically ignorant of these things.

The article seems to presume that the Nasrani wish to return to the (nostalgic) past. I wonder how many actually desire that. And of those who do, how much has been done to recreate what they feel has been lost to them? --Sophroniscus 18:52, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

I have repeated my edits (deletions) to two unsubstantiated sentences. Since your reversion said "see the Talk page", I wanted to clarify my intention.

I have no intention of denying that the Portugese persecuted the Nasranis, and none of my edits alter anything about this persecution. However, the two sentences which I deleted go well beyond that:

The Portuguese burned the Gospel of Thomas and the Acts of Thomas.

No reputable scholar claims that there is any evidence that the Gospel of Thomas ever existed in India.

The purpose stated by Menezes was to erase all legacies of antiquity and Jewishness.

When you reverted my previous changes, you said in your comment, "rv pov dubious deletion on the pretext of dubious statements, please see discussion page for references of persecution of nasranis by the portuguese". Again, I am not denying this persecution. And this is not a "pretext". The sentence above claims that Menenzes announced, "My purpose is to erase all legacy of antiquity." This is an astounding claim, and it requires some sort of evidence. Lawrence King 06:40, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

What's the cite?

"The British researcher, William Dalrymple travelled across the Arabian Sea to Kerala in a boat similar to those mentioned in ancient Jewish and Roman texts and showed how the Nasrani-Jewish people had travelled to Kodungalloor. He followed the same course as mentioned in the Acts of Thomas, a copy of which survives in a monastery on Mount Sinai. Between the late 1990s and early 2000s, ancient Aramaic text of the Gospel of the Nazarenes and other related texts were found in South India. Many of the texts match word to word the text of the Dead Sea scrolls." What is the source for these claims? --Peter Kirby 13:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

BBC Documentary on Nasrani people - The William Dalrymple research on Nasrani people was documented and shown on the BBC. It was shown as a BBC documentary in 2002 and is part of a trilogy of short works called Indian journeys. The section dealing with the nasranis is called as Doubting Thomas. Robin klein 17:10, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

The references to the Dead Sea Scrolls has now been deleted. (1) None of the Dead Sea Scrolls contain Christian material or references to Jesus. (2) No two ancient texts match each other word-for-word, period. Isaiah in the DSS does not match Isaiah in the Masoretic text, nor do any two copies of any other books match exactly rior to the Rabbinical standardization at Jamnia in the late 1st century CE. (3) It is meaningless to refer to the Dead Sea Scrolls. The DSS are a collection of books. This is like saying that many of my books match the Oxford Library word-for-word. Lawrence King 06:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Stone Cutters

Someone keep an eye on the activities of the brethren please. Seems like they are enjoying another practical joke.Budo 04:15, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Patrilineal genealogy cladograms

It is common knowledge that Jewish priesthood is determined by strict patrilineal descent and that the custom originated over 3000 (?) years ago. Further, recent (comparative) genetic studies within the Jewish community have shown a low genetic diversity in the Cohanim (priests) establishing the existence of a distinct paternal genealogy for Jewish priests.

Assuming that the Nasrani were, as is stated "living fossils" until the arrival of the Portugese, it would seem reasonable to assume that they would continue the tradition of a patrilineal lineage of priests.

Therefore, have there been any effort to construct patrilineal genealogy cladograms within the Nasrani and Knanaya people? mtDNA analysis may also help determine the extent of genetic admixture of the original Jewish population with the indigenous population to help validate the (alleged) endogamous customs of the Knanaya.

71.32.50.156 20:31, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

I am a Syrian Christian (Nasrani) and can personally vouch for the fact that the tradition of priesthood passing from generation to generation was followed among this community. My own family, according to our tradition, had more than twenty generations of priests, with the priesthood passed on from father to son.This is by no means a unique case and as is my understanding, was the norm among Syrian Christians.There have been many famous priestly families among the Nasranis.Of course, among the catholic groupings, this practice was stopped, after the Portugese arrived, but continued among the Eastern Rite churches. Cyril Mathew 61.17.69.201 ````

"Nasrani" is a redirect to "Saint Thomas Christians" instead of "Syrian Malabar Christians"

Shouldn't "Nasrani" redirect to this page instead of "Saint Thomas Christians"?(Veliath 14:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC))

Hebrew manuscript found in India and other evidences

Here is a lengthy article written by Prof T. V. Philip on the finding of hebrew bible in India

http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/issues/hebrew_new_testament_book_found_.htm (hebrew new testament found in India)

Prof Philip has taught in India, Europe, USA and Australia. He is a church historian, and a former Professor at the United Theological College, Bangalore, India.

The suppression of the Syrian malabar Nasranis by various people has been there for several centuries and goes on. The best device was / is to delete all evidence and deny the legitimacy of the nasranis.

for further evidence on the trade link between the Judeo-Roman world and Kerala in South India check this link from India's permier newspaper The Hindu. It was published at the time when the hebrew manuscripts were found.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2104/coins.html (Date of Roman coins found near Srivilliputhur assessed)

also check out: http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/mag/2003/08/17/stories/2003081700370800.htm (following the roman trail)

The Syrian Malabar Nasranis did have copies of the Gospel of Thomas and the Acts of Thomas, amongst other manuscripts of the Essenes. Infact the Syrian Malabar Nasranis were also referred to as 'Issanis' in the epic poem of Manimekalai in Tamil by Mani around 3rd century AD, based on the hebrew term 'Issene' or Essene. the manuscripts of acts of thomas and the gospel of thomas and other writings were / are not accepted by the Roman catholic church and therefore the portuguese burned the manuscripts of the nasrani people. Robin klein 07:58, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm unclear about what you are claiming here. Are you stating that there is a connection between the Gospel / Acts of Thomas and the Essenes? What Essene manuscripts do you believe that the Syraian Malabar Nasranis had? Lawrence King 04:13, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

The fact that Archbishop Menezes stated that the purpose of burning nasrani documents was to erase all legacy of antiquity is provided by the respected theologian Claudius Buchanan (Christian Researches in Asia - by Claudius Buchanan p 60).

• Claudius Buchanan (1811). Christian Researches in Asia: With Notices of the Translation of the Scriptures into the Oriental Languages. 2nd ed. Boston: Armstron, Cornhill

Robin klein 14:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

---

I hope you are aware of the fact that the nazarene sect was a sect within the essenes. It is widely known and accepted (please go through the references that have been provided including christian researches by clausius Buchanan) that the essenes used to make exact copies of all the manuscripts they had in order to send it to the syrian malabar nasranis in kerala. The Gospel of thomas was not given the acceptance given to synoptic gospels. Thus all copies of the gospel of thomas was destroyed by the roman catholic church until ofcourse a copy was discovered buried in sealed jars in 1945 at Nag Hammadi. Before this the only copies were in kerala with the syrian nasranis and therefore it was burned by the roman catholic portuguese.

But it seems menezes and his clans have finally succeeded in destroying the legitimacy of the nasranis. Because until these copies could be found all that is said about the nasranis is false and "dubious" and since it is burned it will never be found. The roman catholic church has indeed destroyed the legitimacy of the nasranis. No wonder the Nazis too began by burning books while Papal Nuncio to Germany the later pope Pius XII did nothing.

Besides inspite of having given the reference for the statement of menezes, you have not reverted the statement dealing with the reason for the burning of the nasrani texts. so who is editing POV. Robin klein 10:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

________________________________________________________

The article on Syrian Malabar Nasrani gives all its emphasis on its Jewish elements to the exclusion of its hindu-brahminical background and elements which is cherished by a huge chunk of the Syrian Christians in Kerala. Please see to it that the article get a complete perspective.

User: Maabahuka April 13, 2006.

The cherished claims of brahminical descent have no basis or evidences whatsoever. However the fact of Jewish lineage is stated in the Acts of Thomas, the works of the british researcher William Dalrymple, the ancient syriac-jewish monuments which still exists in kottayam (a picture of which is given on the article), and the copper plates of priviledges given to the Jewish nasranis.

However no evidence whatsoever exists for claims of brahminical descent, they are just cherished claims. besides, few brahmins might have got converted, however that does not qualify a statement saying most of nasranis are them. In fact, given the evidences most of the nasranis are of levantine jewish descent going by their surnames eg: Kuriakose, Kurien, Koshy etc. (derived from the aramaic terms like Kyriakos etc). Besides, the Nasrani Qurbana was mostly in syriac-aramaic (still in jacobite syrian orthodox) and used to be in syriac in the syro-malabar church till 1970s. However it was never in sanskrit.

Historically, the claims for brahminical descent began after the portuguese persecution on the nasrani Judeo-christian people. Probably derived from a human desire to relate to more humane treatment. The brahmins are the elites of Indian society and claims to brahminical descent only betray a desire for better treatment, especially during times of persecution. Robin klein 17:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

________________________________________________________

My friend Mr. Klein, i understand and appreciate your zealous endeavors to promote pro-semitic ideas as is evident from your comment in Kerala Talk Page itself. But when you come down to brass tacks the hard fact is that your claim that the Syrian Christians who make up 20% of the Kerala population is Jewish in descent sounds wholly out of context. And all arguments that you are putting forth for your case too are inadequate. First of all Acts of Thomas is a gnostic document which means that it is an apocryphal and of "spurious or doubful origin. Secondly, the copper plates and privileges were given to Jews and Nazranis separately and not like you said to "Jewish Nazranis".

The copper plates were handed to Jewish nasranis called as Knanaya in 345 CE, They are jewish nasranis who came from cana under Knai Thomman. There are 250000 of them in kerala today. Robin klein 12:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

As to your claim that there is no evidence to brahmins getting converted to christianity in large numbers, let me bring to your notice that there were no obstacles to the increase of population of the christian brahmin converts as was obviously there in the case of the Malayali brahmins(Namboodiri) for whom only the eldest son was allowed to marry a Namboodri woman.

this is no evidence for brahmin descent in the nasranis Robin klein 12:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

For your referring to the names as a proof of the Jewish origins of the Syrian Christians, let me bring to your attention it is a very flimsy argument because unlike other Christians the Syrian Christians kept biblical names as their official name and a Hindu name (local) as pet name suffixed with Achen for gents and Achi or Amma for ladies in most cases as is common with the Namboodiris.

Most of the rituals practiced by Syrian christians are more similar to candalas(parayas). Rituals like beef eating, even in jewish sytems of marriage in cochin, beef was served only to the servants also it was a habit again among the candalas before first century. When the head of the Paraya (Candala) community is dead, as per the customary jati law they bury the corpus of the deceased head (moopan) in sitting posture instead of the usual practice of keeping the dead body in lying position. The Kananaya and Saint Thomas Syrian Jacobite/Orthodox factions of Kerala Christians are the only communities other than the Parayas (Candalas) to bury the corpse of their bishops (spiritual head) in the manner of the Paraya moopans of old. No other Christian factions neither upheld nor practiced such a burial system. This burial pattern suggests a very strong socio-cultural or anthropological relation between both communities, which lost their link elsewhere in the deluge of history. Most of the marriage rituals are also similar to candalas.BGfromNZ (talk) 06:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Overall the life style, customs, church administration, marriage ceremonies, etc were identical with the practices in Nambudiri families. This is common for most of the Syrian Christian denominations except possibly for the Knanaya christians who had historically migrated to Malabar coast in A.D. 235 along with Knai Thomman.

Thomman(Merchant) came to Malabar in 345A.D and not 235, I can give you an interesting argument for the namboodiri conversion. From my personal experience I strongly feel Syrian Christians are facing some inferiority complex, which always compels them to announce this ancestry as often they could. Most often I felt this as a weather forecast over the radio. Coming to the point the 1901 Census Report says that there were 19,279 Namboothiris in British Malabar, 5,290 in Cochin State and 5,326 in Travancore State. It shows that the net Kerala Namboothiri population was 29,895, a mere 0.47% of the population of Kerala. (Namboothirimaar, edited by Paarayil Raman Namboodiri and published in 1917 by Mangalodayam Company, Thrissur). We again assume that Namboothiri population rose at 2-3%(2% was the world growth in 1961, just used as a guideline) level per anum and if we try to compound it reversely we cannot take it anything before 8th century at an acceptable level of 1555 people. In case St. thomas converted vedic Brahmins, where are they now? or did they merge with Namboothiris?BGfromNZ (talk) 06:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

the nasrani qurbana has always been in syriac till the 1970s it has never been in sanskrit. which should have been the case if they were indeed brahmins.

It is you User: Maabahuka who is zealous to proclaim brahminical descent for the nasranis probably to prove a higher place in Indian caste system. but you have not presented any evidences.

So the article dealing with Syrian Christians needs to be rewritten entirely because it is contrary to rhym and reason that is cherished and handed down as history by the Syrian Christian population of Kerala.

User: Maabahuka April 14, 2006

No, despite the claims, there are no evidence like the copper plates for brahmins in the syrian nasrani tradition.Robin klein 12:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

________________________________________________________

I have modified the sentence "Malabar is the ancient name of the present day state of Kerala in India." .Bharatveer 04:51, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Corrected the typo and added the citation needed tag for "namboothiri history".Bharatveer 08:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

________________________________________________________

Did user Maabahuka really argue brahminical descent of all Nasaranis or is it that Robin Klein likes to debate as if he did? Maabahuka appears to argue that there may be a little more Brahmin content in the Nasarani gene pool than Mr Klein says there is and whole lot less Jewish content than as Mr Klein argues.

Obviously, Mr Klein has done quite a lot of research and he is an expert on the subject. But the problem with ouside experts is that they lack a certain familiarity with certain aspects of the subject matter that some people who grew up in that society may have.

Mr Klein's statement, "the nazarani qurbana has always been in syriac till the 1970s, it has never been in Sanskrit, which should have been the case if they were indeed brahmins", is utterly absurd logic, (regardless of whether they were indeed brahmins or not.) What rule would have dectated that if they were Brahmins the qurbana should have been in Sanskrit?

Another absurd aspect of Mr Klein's way of reasoning is what appears to be his demand for copper plates as historical evidence for everyting that occurred or not occurred in Kerala. Is Kerala history based only on copper plates?

---

Hello, My friend, I am putting up this text by another writer (Veliath) on this subject, written on kerala talk page, which might clarify your queries. I am posting his text here. Robin klein 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

---

---

Hi, I don't know if this proves anything about Brahmanical origins ( which are actually claimed by my family ), but my family name is "Sankara-Mangalam" == "House of Shiva". Its a bit of a puzzle when you think about how a completely Judeo-Christian origin could beget such a family name.

Thanks. Cherry Mathew

It is a common tradition for people to adopt surnames or terms of those with whom people interact and conduct trade. Iranian jews (eg zadeh, etc) have persian surnames while German jews have Germanic surnames (eg Rosenberg, Kahn etc). In fact several Indian Muslims and Indian Zoroastrians (parsis) both share common names and surnames (like, Shah, Jehangir, Jahan etc). While among the Jain community in India many people who were involved with trade with the arabs have adopted the surname of SHAH. Several gujarati jains have Persian surnames like Shah, Mehta (also shared by Zoroastrian and Persian Iranis and Muslims). Names are representational terms and are often influenced by cultural milieu and context of trade and business. Robin klein 23:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

---

On the Syrian Christians (Nasrani Mappilas) and their origins --Veliath (Posted to Kerala's Talk page)

Hello all. I would like to weigh in with my take on the origin of the Syrian Christians aka Nasrani Mappilas. Some of it is theoretical, some of it is based on folklore, some on known trends in Kerala&India. Some of the theory is mine, some of it is others. I will try to separate out each of these as I present my take on the history of the Syrian Christians(SyrChrs).

Perhaps the most important point to keep in mind is that it is well known and documented that the Syrian Christians are not homogeneous - not culturally, not genetically nor in terms of social status.

Culturally the SyrChrs have practises that differ across localities as well as across families. Some SyrChrs families are considered "high" born while others are not considered so.

It is well known that SyrChrs practised polygyny (and in some cases polyandry) where the subsequent wives would be from socially lower (usually Hindu)communities. Further, many families and whole communities claim descent from Jewish settlers. Others claim Brahmin descent.

The differences in claimed descent meant that SyrChr communities were accorded different social statuses in different regions. In many areas they were perpetually in conflict with Nairs for patronage and the granting of privileges from the local kings or chieftains.

I hope to address these issues in my version of the SyrChr Origin_story:-)

West Asian Identity

A key element that separates out the Mappila communities from the others in India and Kerala is the obvious West Asian influence. It is generally believed that this points to a West Asian origin for the communities. It is documented that around the beginning of the Christian era Muziris on Kerala's coast was the largest trading port on India's Western coast known for its West Asian settlements.

Trade in Early India, Oxford University Press says the following on page 66: "Thanks to a graphic description left behind by Pliny, historians are able to trace the development of the sea-route to the west coast of India in four-stages. The most developed route, which was also the shortest and safest,began from the Red Sea port of Myos Hormos and /or Berenice and reached the famous Malabar port of Muziris (Muciri of the Tamil Sangam texts) in forty days by following the Hippalus (i.e. the south-western monsoon) wind. Pliny states that the earliest point of maritime contacts between India and the West was Patalene in the Indus delta; the subsequent point was the port of Barbaricum on the middle mouth of the Indus. The third stage made Sigerius or Jaigarh on the Konkan coast the convenient harbour and finally, Muziris became the most important port of call." Essentially by the time Pliny wrote things down Muziris was well established as a major port of call for Roman shipping. Note that the term Roman refers in general to the peoples ruled by the Romans - which included portions of Arabia and regions around the Mediterranean - i.e. present day Palestine/Israel, Armenia and Africa.

The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown adds the following on page 60:"At first(from about 90 B.C.) ships went from Aden and other Arabian ports direct to Bombay and finally discovered how to sail direct, diagonally across to Muziris, the port of Malabar, instead of tacking laboriously down the coast. Malabar was in any case the end of the voyage. for it was from there that pepper, spices and precious stones were exported." He goes on to say on page 61 "We know something about the extent of this trade from references in Latin writers and from coins discovered in south India. Arikamedu was an established Roman trading station and the Peutinger Tables show a temple of Augustus near Muziris, and it is said that two Roman cohorts were stationed there to guard the warehouses. Pliny speaks with some dismay of a trade which cost the empire about one and a half million sesterces a year, chiefly for luxuries like pepper, ginger and precious stones, with no reciprocal export trade to compensate". On page 62 he says "Some Tamil classics(Silapadhigaaram, Manimekalai) also speak of this trade. One poem speaks of Muziris, where `agitating the white foam of the Periyar river, the beautifully built ships of the Yavanas(Westerners) came with gold and returned with pepper, and Muziris resounded with the noise'; and in another poem we read of the Pandya king drinking `the cool and fragrant wine brought by the Yavanas in their good ships'. We also read that some Indian rajas employed bodyguards of Western soldiers --`the valiant-eyed Yavanas whose bodies were strong and of terrible aspect'; who were `excellent guardians of the gates of the fort walls'."

Now nothing is mentioned of the ethnic makeup of these West Asians, but to me it seems to be primarily Semitic (Arabs and Jews), Persian, Aremenian, Abyssinan, Egyptian and of course the Graeco-Roman elites themselves. It should also be noted that Muziris was famous before a direct sea-route to it was found.

These settlers would have been entire families/communities or simply male traders who setup factories on Kerala's shores. Many would have taken Indian wives. Over generations they would have formed a distinct community. It has been suggested that this could be the reason for the term Mappila(groom) being used to refer to them - a community formed by foreign grooms setting up families on Kerala's shores.

As has been documented by Robin Klein, many Jewish refugee communities found their way down to Kerala, typically travelling down the trading routes and settling in the relatively cosmopolitan trading locations on the Malabar Coast. J.N.Farquhar in "The Apostle Thomas in North India" (available in The Nazranies, edited by Prof. George Menachery) theorizes that the Jews were dispersed all the way from Syria to Parthia, many were engaged in trade and that for the Apostle Thomas "his kinsmen the Jews would be the chief objective". Essentially, he believes that any visit by the Apostle to Malabar would have been to proselytize amongst the thriving Jewish community "dispersed" as he puts it from Syria to Parthia with their communities extending all the way down to the Malabar coast. The Apostle's visit though very plausible will remain categorized as folklore.

As Christianity began to catch on in West Asia (both Arabia and Persia) and later the Roman Empire, the religious make up of the Yavanas to Kerala's shores began to become more Christian. Their persecution in the early centures probably only added to their increased settlement on Kerala's shores. These Christian communities would eventually be called Nasrani Mappilas.

Another major development in West Asian Christianity mirrored in Kerala is the (East)Roman vs Parthian empire hostility that resulted in the East and West Syrian Churchs. Today this is represented by the Syro-Malankara and Jacobite&Orthodox denominations following a West Syriac liturgy (centered around present day Syria & Lebanon) while the Syro-Malabar, Chaldean and Church of the East following an East Syriac derived liturgy (centered around present day Iraq & Iran). It is very likely that both Churches had communities in Kerala in obedience to them within years of the split.

With the advent of Islam the demographic of the Mappilas would have started changing again. There might have been a brief increase in settlements from those escaping persecution, following which the number of Muslims amongst the West Asians would have increased - especially amongst the Arabs.

As documented by Leslie Brown(page 81) the Muslim settlers would eventually push the Christian ones into the hinterland. Contact with West Asians would now be primarily Muslim, but Christian and Jewish traders would continue to visit Kerala's shores.

Unions with Indian communities and social integration

With the decrease in overseas Christian contacts, the Nasrani Mappila communities would have become more Indianized.

The Mappilas were patronized for the money they brought in to the coffers of the various kings and chieftains under whose suzerainty they traded. As their numbers increased they would have provided soldiers and weapons to their chieftains which in turn would have been rewarded with grants of land and social privileges. Some communites like the Knanaya community were granted land on immigration. This coupled with the loss of control of the trading ports to the Muslims would have resulted in the Nasranis becoming a landed community growing the spices and timber they historically traded.

Leslie Brown notes(pages 169-171) that in a lot of areas SyrChrs and Nairs were considered equals and were constantly in competition for royal patronage and privilege. The SyrChrs took wives and very likely accepted grooms after the Marumakkathayam fashion from amongst the Nairs.

Excerpts from The Indian Christians of St Thomas, Leslie Brown page 169:"They were given charge of the collection of revenue for the rajas in certain places and in the fourteenth century Marignolli found that they were in charge of the public weighing office in the Quilon customs. Associated with concessions in the pepper and other trades was the grant of service from certain castes and the responsibility of protecting them." On page 171 he writes: "The Christians shared many other things besides names with the Nayars. They occasionally took wives from that community, and their children often went to school with Nayar children...Many families still have certain privileges in the temples which are believed to have been granted in recognition of some service given or some present made in former times. For example at the Arat festival in Parappatattu temple the oldest member of the Pulikkamarrattil family of Syrians (who bore the title of Panikkar or Menon)had the right to go before the image of the deity and received rice and other presents". On page 170 he says: "The other privileges granted by the rajas were of use in establishing the position of the Christians in society and as such were most jealously guarded. In the sixteenth century the raja of Paravur tried to give similar privileges to the Nayars of his State but the Christians rose in armed revolt and forced him to change his mind"

It is likely that in places where Nairs and Christians were on par socially, or the latter higher (as in Paravur above), it is my belief that the increasing social clout of the SyrChrs would have resulted in some of these families being able to participate in the practise of Marumakkathayam with scions of Namboothiri families. The children born to these marriages would claim Namboothiri descent on the male side (the SyrChrs were patrilineal) and the families of today that claim Brahmin blood very likely are descended from these unions. The tale of Namboothiri conversions by the Apostle Thomas could be an attempt at hoariness by these families in my opinion.

Various sources including Leslie Brown and such documents as the Synod of Diamper mention the practise of cohabition with Indian slave women - i.e. women from the oppressed labour communities of Kerala. This would have resulted in the children from these marriages becoming part of the SyrChr communities.

The Synod of Diamper has a "Decree XI" in it's "Action IX. Of the Reformation of Manners." section that reads: "Whereas there are great numbers of Christians who for want of having the Fear of God and the Church before their Eyes, do cohabit publickly with Concubines, to the great scandal of Christianity; the Vicars shall therefore with great Charity admonish all such Offenders, three times declaring to them, That if they do not reform, they must declare them Excommunicate, and if after so many Admonitions they do not turn away their Concubines, they must be Excommunicated until they are effectually parted, and be punished with other Penalties at the pleasure of the Prelate, according to the time that they have lived in that Sin, and when it shall so happen that their Concubines are their Slaves, they shall constrain them not only to turn them out of their Houses, but to send them out of the Country where they live, that there may be no more danger of their relapsing, which shall be likewise observed as to all other Women where there is the same danger."

The SyrChr communities continued to be churned as the fortunes of the kings & chieftains they owed allegiance to changed over time. The strange bubble like nature of the caste system prevalent in Kerala allowed the SyrChr communities to retain their West Asian customs and practises to a significant degree.

--Veliath 12:45, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Do let me know what you'll have to say. I have tried to quote citations - I feel that would be more convincing and allow us to reach agreement faster. I'm sorry for not responding sooner to this discussion. I don't have time except on weekends for major edits/submissions. --Veliath

---

Whether the person studying a topic comes from within the community or outside is not an issue. However, a problem that might arise with people from within a society is that they may want to pass off general notions as the fact. Robin klein 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

P.S. please sign your name when you write on a talk page Robin klein 01:19, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

njana snanam

This is a term I've heard used among Syrian Christians who are now Roman Catholic. I have not heard this term used either in The Marthoma, or the Syrian Orthodox denominations.

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that I've heard this in the context of "Adult Baptism" in pentecostal denominations.

Thanks,

Cherry

The term used for baptism by syriac churches both catholic and orthodox is Mamodisa. Njana Snanam is a general term in Malayalam language that is used as a descriptive term for the Aramaic-syriac term mamodisa. Terms like names are representational terms and are often influenced by cultural milieu and context of trade and business. Robin klein 23:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Nasrani dietary tradition and Jewish Kashrut

The Syrian tradition of dietary customs celebrate Even-toed ungulate animals of the jewish kashrut. While the Brahmin tradition of dietary customs stress on the practice of vegetarianism and the abstinence of non vegetarianism as an important feature of Brahmanism.

For festive occasions the Nasranis relish traditional bread (appam) with meat, especially cow (Beef) (which is never meant to be eaten by Brahmin traditions). The practice of eating pork is not widespread and is only seen in less proportion after the Portuguese persecution and destruction of the Syrian Christians. In fact the chief Nasrani dishes include Beef and mutton (goat) together with (appam) as part of traditional celebrations of Easter and wedding celebrations similar to Jewish traditions of Kashrut or Kosher. In anthropology, dietary customs are considered as hallmarks of traditions and continuity.

It is a common tradition for people to adopt surnames or terms of those with whom people interact and conduct trade. Iranian jews (eg zadeh, etc) have persian surnames while German jews have Germanic surnames (eg Rosenberg, Kahn etc). In fact several Indian Muslims and Indian Zoroastrians (parsis) both share common names and surnames (like, Shah, Jehangir, Jahan etc). While among the Gujarathi Jain community in India many people who were involved with trade with the arabs have adopted the surname of SHAH. Several gujarati jains have Persian surnames like Shah, Mehta (also shared by Zoroastrian and Persian Iranis and Muslims). The term used for baptism by syriac churches both catholic and orthodox is Mamodisa. Njana Snanam is a general term in Malayalam language that is used as a descriptive term for the Aramaic-syriac term mamodisa. Names are representational terms and are often influenced by cultural milieu and context of trade and business.

However unlike names, dietary customs are passed from familial traditions and are therefore much resilient to external influence. People of Brahmin descent, pass on their Brahmin dietary laws of abstinence from fish, goat, beef or anything that is non-vegetarian, especially since vegetarianism is one of the defining features of brahmanical tradition. However traditional Syrian Christians diet include most of all fish, goat and beef (all of which are considered as clean animals in the Jewish laws of Kosher or dietary laws). Similarly Jains even though they have surnames like Shah and Mehta abstain from consuming meat and other products that are restricted by their dietary laws. Syrian christians relish Beef and mutton and fish, they do not abstain from non vegetarian food which as it happens is the defining feature of Brahmanism. Robin klein 23:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

near 2000 years diaspora

so we Suriyani(Syrian) Christians lost our major clues of origins due to protugese entering here.also please read that society at this part of the world was not at par with their western counterparts.we people geneologically looks alike of Namboodiris or Nairs or any higher caste in Kerala.but Knanaaya Christians do have few problems coming up from ancestories like some diseases due to impure blood(i dont know the disease name in english :() etc as they are closely knit.infact they earlier stich an ash carrying bag(small one) to their body(chaaram kettikal or ash carriers!). Also there are traditional song which praises St.Thomas and caliming who baptised as also the song is not in Malayalam,but an old dialect of Tamil.Also,there are claims that many Suriyani churches of kerala are having their base as Hindu Temples as the case in north india where mosques are made above hindu temples.Most of the families(mostly catholics) of Ernakulam/Kottayam districts and regions are having their family hsitory written as basically they are Brahmins(may be an imagination they have!) and they came from Kodungalloor aka Muziris.Praka123 22:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Articles are not to be merged

The article Syrian Malabar Nasrani deals with the Nasrani people of Kerala as an ethnic people. The article Knanaya deals with a subgroup within that community. It is therefore essential to have separate pages for the topics of Syrian malabar nasrani and Knanaya, which are highly related. Besides it is wikipedia policy to create sub articles when there is lots of details within a subtopic. This has already been indicated with the main heading link given to the subpages. Robin klein 22:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid this article exhibits an obvious misunderstanding that has not yet been corrected No Christian body could reasonably assert, and no mainstream Christian body has ever thaught, either that the Romans alone killed Jesus or the the Jews alone killed Jesus.

What the Gospels depict is perfectly straightforward: Jesus was executed by the Roman soldiers in Palestine under Pontius Pilate at the instigation of the leaders of the Jewish community.

It never ceases to amaze me that some people fail to grasp both sides of this equation, or exaggerate the significance of one or another of them, and speak as if a given Christian Church taught only one or the other.

75.42.210.72 13:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC)Michael Healy 12/31/06

How can Jews be Nasranis?

How can people practising Judaism be Nasranis? They're not of a Christian sect. "Nasrani" refers to the "followers of Jesus of Nazarene". To me, to include Jews is inaccurate to this article since that it sounds strange given that Jews are not followers of Christ (meaning to include worshipping Jesus as Son of God).

Mappila , Methans and Poola Chetan

Mapila Mapillai or Moplah is not a title of Syrian Christians but indicates foreign ancestrty The foreign immigrants who came to India in search of pepper were forced to stay in India for about six months till the trade wind direction changed.During that time the Arabs, Syrians, Jews, Romans and Greeks and Nasranis invariably married Dravidian girls. Mapila means son in law in ancient Tamil as well as Malayalam. The foreign son in laws often never returned but their offsprings were called Mapilas too. Uppukuttan Mappillai was an Arabi Mappillai of pre islamic period. Similarly Arabi Mapillai(Arabs), Yehuda Mapillai(Jews), Jonaka Mapillai (Greeks and Romans)were some of the other Mapillais. Methans or Methanmar is another term to indicate the people of foreign origin from the west.Mel thisai was west in Tamil. Meltharakaranmar or people from the land in the west (Middle east including Syria and Persia and Europe). (Keezhthara means land in the East-China) Poola Chetan was mispronunciation of Portuguese. Portuguese who brought Tapiocca to India were called Poolachetans (long brother in Malayalam) or Parangis(pale ones) and the Kappa (tapiocca)was called Poolakappa. Nelkinda (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

About the title Mappila and Nasrani, Nazrani, Nazraney,Mar Sapir Iso

Mappila is a title awarded by Mampally Sasanam to Syrian Christians.It doesnot mean groom or immigrants. In Kollavarsham 149 ( Malayalam Calander )(AD1051) the Chera king Vallabhan kotha had given a Chepped to the Chengannoor Church conferring the title Mappila to all the Syrian Chrstians. The Syrian churches existing at that time were known as Mother Churches. After this Chepped was given, members of those churches were given the title ‘Mappila’ or children of Mother Churches and they suffixed Mappila with their names as a title of honour.

Syrian Christians who came for shelter under Travencore State ruled by Karthikathirunal during the Tipu Invasion in Central Kerala districts of Kottayam still uses the title.

• http://nasrani.wordpress.com/2007/02/16/the-plates-and-the-privileges/
• http://alackal.com/SyrianChristians.html

Please dont quote biased websites like nasrani or hamsa or haindavakeralam. Link sources which incorporates academic lineage.BGfromNZ (talk) 06:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think in introduction refernace to Nazrani, Nazraney, Nazarenes should also be included. The first Malayalam news paper daily Deepika when started publishing in AD 1887 has the name Nazrani Deepika.In this article the word Nasrani is used i wonder how we can arrive on the correct spelling as Nazrani,Nazraney and nazarenes also widely used in the Syrian Christian history.

Again in the orgin about the Knanaya consists of only People tracing their orgin to Knai Thomman.That doesnot inculde 7th centuray syrian immigration.

The people tracing their orgin to 7th century syrian immigration under the leadership of Maruvan Sabariso, Maruvan Sapir Iso or Mar Sapir Iso are not part of the Knanaya Community, they are very much in the Syrian Christian community.Tharisappalli Cheppeds are awarded to Mar Sapir Iso and many churches which even exists today in central travancore are built by Mar Sapir Iso.Even many traditions and heritage like ornamental umbrellas, traditional drums and arch decorations which arepart of most church festivals in Kerala trace their orgin to Mar Sapir Iso.

http://nasrani.wordpress.com/2007/02/16/saint-thomas-the-apostlethe-bartholomew-missionthomas-of-cana-the-ornamental-umbrella-and-sapir-iso/

I think this article requires correction to some extent.Tarijanel 03:25, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

---

I agree with the above comments. The date of the Syrian immigration under Mar Sabor Easo (Sapir Iso) is dated around 822 AD (i.e. 9th century). This group of migrants were Christians (probably Persian) and they mixed with the native Nasrani Christians. Their arrival is well documented.

Mar Sapir Easho

, Syrian pioneer, might have been of Pahlavi or Persian origin. The Tarisapalli Shasanam has been siged in three languages.

• Pahlavi
• Kufric
• Hebrew

indicating the people who came had Persian, Palestenian and Hebrew ancestries and were recent immigrants. Nelkinda (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC) The Knanayas, according to their tradition, are Jewish-Christian immigrants under Thomas Cana during ~375 AD. They are supposed to have come from SE Turkey. Malabari 16:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)malabari

Syrian christians were not Jews but descend from Asura or Assyrians

All the Syrian Christians claim to be either Jews or Namboothiris but both could be false. The Knananyas among the Syrian Chrisitans came from Syria when it was under the Sassanian kingdom between 200 ad to 600 ad. They are Syrians belonging to the Arab stock descending from Asura of Assyrian people a primitive people of Proto Asian stock. The Persian Pahlavi could be an acquired language. The plates they present for proof often have Portuguese letters on it.The exact day of their arrival cant be ascertained though it is believed to be 345 ad. or later. Some say they came only after 800 ad. Nelkinda (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Are A K Antony and K J Yesudas Nasranis?

Especially I doubt about the latter. Please clarify.--Peopledowhattheyoughttodo 05:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

A.K. Antony is Nasrani. He is a Syrian Catholic. Malabari 08:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC) Malabari

Reply :

K J Yesudas was born in a Nazarani family but with more faith in Hinduism Tinucherian 02:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

K J Yesudas is a Latin Nasrani. 68.253.183.247 01:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What are the Jewish traditions followed only by the Knanayas?

It's often repeated in several articles that the Knanayas have preserved more Jewish traditions than the rest of the Nasranis. I can't remember any. In fact, the Knanaya Jacobites don't even have the tradition of Pesaha Appam that is followed by most Nasranis including Catholics. Any replies? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Malabari (talk • contribs) 16:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

I would also like to know the answer, though I am sure there are differnces especially in marriage customs/celibrations in Knanaya Catholics compared to "vadakkans". They have, however, similar Pesaha. --Peopledowhattheyoughttodo 04:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The marriage ceremony of the Kananaya Syrian Christians, contained numerous formal procedures and rituals that were alien to Christians all over. Some of such ritualistic observances in association with marriages that still exists amongst the Kananaya Syrian Christians of Keralam are the hair cutting custom, henna application ceremony, the ritual of ash tying, the customary practice of nadavili, the customary rite of thalakettu, etc. They are the real facsimile of the customary practices, through centuries, of the subaltern jaties such as Vathies, Velans, Vannanas, Vetas, and Parayas. Furthermore, since the very beginning of Kananaya Syrian Christian history intoxicating drinks has been an unavoidable item of the feast of their marriages. This traditional practice of serving intoxicating drinks by Kananaya Syrian Christians on the auspicious occasions is the replica of the above-mentioned subaltern jaties of Keralam in the bygone days.

BGfromNZ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.150.98.77 (talk) 03:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Nasrani Culture

I think, this will be very useful for readers. We have a very distinct social behaviour thanks to the sunday school and sunday church service, which many pagans are even unaware of. Also please emphasize our family set up, siblings/kin relations, moral values, hard working nature etc.

What do you say?--220.227.207.36 03:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Needs Correction

Though drafted beautifully this article needs correction as it still doesnot list down many of the customs and culture of Nasrani's

Nasrani article with out mention of Mar Sapir Iso is not complete.

On persecution side it only talks about portuguese which is not complete.Tipu Sultan trail on Malabar worth mentiong as well as Dutch and British contributions on dividing and ruling the community.

--Kevin 04:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Removal of data from Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani

http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Syrian_Malabar_Nasrani&diff=prev&oldid=142549683

"Besides a lot of the Malabari locals who joined early Christianity returned to their earlier faith during a shaivite revival by the shaivite scholar Manikka Vachkar.[1] "

The following data is Without any historical proof and also deframtory . Hence will be removed .

Tinucherian 02:16, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Changes on Content

User Tinucherian and another person made chnages in the content with out discussion.Please do keep in mind that this article contains contributions from many people. This is not a new article to come and make changes in one day.Before anyone makes any changes do have the courtsey to discuss and wait for atleast 30 days and if the response is favarable to your suggestions and then only proceed for changes.I request the editors not to encourage changes with out discussion.Editors should encourage new peoples contribution but that should not be for tampering the articles.

Unsolicted changes happened during the last few months

1- Removeal of Passover from traditions

Pass over is another surviving Jewish tradition still followed by the Nasranis is the tradition of Pesaha-appam or unleavened Passover bread”). On passover night, the Nasrani people have Pesaha-appam along with Pesaha-pal or “Passover coconut milk”. This tradition of Pesaha-appam is observed by the entire Nasrani people until this day. === Most of the Nasranis follow this tradition, the only exception is Knanya Jacobite and Protestants.If you look at the Nasrani population they dont even exceed 2 or 3 percent.

Please check this link -http://nasrani.net/2007/02/13/preserved-original-rituals-of-the-early-jewish-christians-in-syrian-christians-of-kerala/ [ Many of the traditions has been removed with out any discussion.

2-Shaivite revival

If you look at the reverse population projection the Kerala populationin the begining of century is around 200000. The poulation maninly consiting of Nasranis and Budhists.Vedic revival and Shivaite revival happend during the end of first century and many Nasranis as well a Budhists adorned to the faiths.The referance are already given in the article.Please read the books mentioned on referance and dont make chnages with out reading.

This article needs revision and rather than making irrevalant chnages discuss on the chnages required and some one who has time discuss it and then make chnages.

Maharshisy 02:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Dont link Churches on this article

The purpose of this article is explained in the begining.Please dont add churches here.Traditional Nasrani churches are detailed in St Thomas Chrisitans article.

Maharshisy 02:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Need of a new section - Archaeological Findings

I think this article needs a new section detailing the archaeological findings like Muziris,various plates and roman coins discovered of earlier trade.I request readers opinions.I can come with a draft.

Maharshisy , 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits on the term local people

Recent unwanted edits and dumping of texts by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:B_Nambiar

Most of the Kerala historians agree that Buddhism is the pre dominant religion in Kerala atleast till 7 or 8 th century along with Christianity. The concept of Avarna or Savarna is of late orgin and there are no evidances. Please get some evidences before making unwanted edits.It is advisable to develop atleast a basic understanding about Nasranis before contributing for what ever reason.

The term local people is used to denote the initial converts other than the Jews and daispora community which is the apt usage rather than bringing in classifications which are of late orgin.Maharshisy (talk) 08:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I intended to put in a more accurate description from common knowledge, but you are right about the time mismatches. I meant converts from communities who were classified as Avarna after Namboothiri arrival as Hindu upper castes did not convert into Christianity bar a few notables and this would be worth noting in an encyclopedic article.

"Recent unwanted edits"

Why is it objectively unwanted can you explain?Nambo (talk) 12:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)