Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Help:Pronunciation: Difference between revisions
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*'''Keep'''. What the nominator is objecting to is not the IPA ''per se,'' but to not choosing a specific English dialect as its basis. He transcribes what appears to be his personal pronunciation in his articles, and rejects being tagged for violating neutrality. However, he also rejects choosing the dictionary pronunciation that would allow you to predict dialectical variation so that all national dialects are covered, claiming that "is impossible" (which it clearly is not) and "does violence to English". [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 18:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
*'''Keep'''. What the nominator is objecting to is not the IPA ''per se,'' but to not choosing a specific English dialect as its basis. He transcribes what appears to be his personal pronunciation in his articles, and rejects being tagged for violating neutrality. However, he also rejects choosing the dictionary pronunciation that would allow you to predict dialectical variation so that all national dialects are covered, claiming that "is impossible" (which it clearly is not) and "does violence to English". [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 18:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
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::Oh, and to avoid the problem, the nominator removed the IPA altogether and wrote the entries with acute accents to indicate stress.[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_albedo_features_on_Mercury&diff=prev&oldid=195114666] While I'm not opposed to that, I don't see how changing English orthography is less OR than chosing an IPA standard. [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 18:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
::Oh, and to avoid the problem, the nominator removed the IPA altogether and wrote the entries with acute accents to indicate stress.[http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=List_of_albedo_features_on_Mercury&diff=prev&oldid=195114666] While I'm not opposed to that, I don't see how changing English orthography is less OR than chosing an IPA standard. [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 18:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
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::Kwami is falsely claiming that *his* preferred pronunciation is a "dictionary pronunciation". It is not. If it were so, he could easily deal with the OR problem by citing the dictionary the usage he is touting is based on. But there is no such thing; it is something that he, personally, has made up for use ''solely'' on Wikipedia. That is totally inappropriate. [[User:RandomCritic|RandomCritic]] ([[User talk:RandomCritic|talk]]) 02:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC) |
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*'''Keep''' [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]] are not reasons to delete. I find it suspicious that the nom has brought up these same issues in the talk page and has met with resistance. Rather than continue to discuss it or concede that he's not getting his way, he's decided we should delete the page. [[WP:POINT|Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point]]. Even if it's agreed that a pan-dialectal representation is unbecoming, [[Help:Pronunciation]] would be the place to set up policy on pronunciation in accordance with [[WP:MOS#National varieties of English]]. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Ƶ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]</sub></small>]]</span> 18:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
*'''Keep''' [[WP:NOR]] and [[WP:NPOV]] are not reasons to delete. I find it suspicious that the nom has brought up these same issues in the talk page and has met with resistance. Rather than continue to discuss it or concede that he's not getting his way, he's decided we should delete the page. [[WP:POINT|Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point]]. Even if it's agreed that a pan-dialectal representation is unbecoming, [[Help:Pronunciation]] would be the place to set up policy on pronunciation in accordance with [[WP:MOS#National varieties of English]]. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Ƶ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]</sub></small>]]</span> 18:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Libcub|Libcub]] ([[User talk:Libcub|talk]]) 19:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
*'''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Libcub|Libcub]] ([[User talk:Libcub|talk]]) 19:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 02:27, 2 March 2008
This page propounds a representation of pronunciation which is the invention of its editors and therefore qualifies as OR. Although labelled a Help page, it is being appealed to as if it were an established policy page. There is simply no reason -- nor is it feasible -- for Wikipedia to set up its own, idiosyncratic, pronunciation scheme which is recognized nowhere else in the world. RandomCritic (talk) 14:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep, the IPA is not Wikipedia's "own idiosyncratic pronunciation scheme"; rather, it is recognized throughout the world (the I of IPA standing for International). —Angr If you've written a quality article... 16:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Speedy keep per Angr. Will (talk) 17:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep. What the nominator is objecting to is not the IPA per se, but to not choosing a specific English dialect as its basis. He transcribes what appears to be his personal pronunciation in his articles, and rejects being tagged for violating neutrality. However, he also rejects choosing the dictionary pronunciation that would allow you to predict dialectical variation so that all national dialects are covered, claiming that "is impossible" (which it clearly is not) and "does violence to English". kwami (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, and to avoid the problem, the nominator removed the IPA altogether and wrote the entries with acute accents to indicate stress.[1] While I'm not opposed to that, I don't see how changing English orthography is less OR than chosing an IPA standard. kwami (talk) 18:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Kwami is falsely claiming that *his* preferred pronunciation is a "dictionary pronunciation". It is not. If it were so, he could easily deal with the OR problem by citing the dictionary the usage he is touting is based on. But there is no such thing; it is something that he, personally, has made up for use solely on Wikipedia. That is totally inappropriate. RandomCritic (talk) 02:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep WP:NOR and WP:NPOV are not reasons to delete. I find it suspicious that the nom has brought up these same issues in the talk page and has met with resistance. Rather than continue to discuss it or concede that he's not getting his way, he's decided we should delete the page. Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Even if it's agreed that a pan-dialectal representation is unbecoming, Help:Pronunciation would be the place to set up policy on pronunciation in accordance with WP:MOS#National varieties of English. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Libcub (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep. A standardised way of showing pronunciation is certainly a required feature for wikipedia. This key serves that purpose as a good broad phonemic representation of English. In the majority of cases where dialects differ in pronunciation (especially rhotic vowels), both versions can be systematically derived from the forms specified. It is based on well established choices for using the internationally recognised IPA. −Woodstone (talk) 20:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep, no real reason to delete, as the nominator's reasoning is just an unsustained assertion. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 02:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
- What is unsustained is any point of reference showing that this scheme -- not IPA but this specific application of IPA to English -- has any following outside of Wikipedia. RandomCritic (talk) 02:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)