Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Trivia sections

Minor changes

Might I suggest that the second paragraph (Guideline is not) go above the paragraph (Guidance). No big change, maybe one or two words would need adjusting.

Then the section headings are clunky, how about (Guidance) become (Practical steps) or (?????). Just small changes, I remember at one time I moved (Other Policies apply) to the top, (which got reverted); dont need that. Any comments on these small formatting suggestions, that hopefully won't add to dramas elsewhere, and may possibly even help avoid drama?Newbyguesses - Talk 23:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I would have to say that a statement of what the guidance is should come before a statement of what it isn't. The "guidance" section furthermore opens with "don't categorically remove trivia sections", which emphasizes that point quite sufficiently, in my view.--Father Goose (talk) 23:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Normally, yes, I would agree with that. However, a syncopated kind of emphasis is achieved by occasionally where appropriate reversing the natural order, and this might be a situation where that can be taken advantage of. Try looking at the changed order in a sandbox or something, could it be made to work?

"Such sections should not be simply removed", (or whatever exact words we have got there now) always seemed a bit clunky to me ie (allitaration) (S)uch (S)ections. How about These sections?Newbyguesses - Talk 00:01, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It would look something like this Newbyguesses - Talk 00:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Changes shown here. / edg ☺ ☭ 00:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Nah, doesn't work for me. However, I did change "such sections" to "trivia sections" just now, to try to address that point.--Father Goose (talk) 05:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

How did this policy originate?

Without wishing to wade through the archives, perhaps someone could explain how this particular guideline came into being. Was there really a broad consensus that trivia sections are bad (I happen to think they often aren't), or was it more a case of a few forceful editors - of which there are many in Wikipedia - imposing their point-of-view on the rest of us. 82.20.28.142 (talk) 17:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

It was proposed in 2006 and then there was a poll to make it a guideline. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 17:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. It was a weak consensus, as stated in the summary. Is it perhaps time to review the issue again? 82.20.28.142 (talk) 17:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. 27-16 is not a strong consensus. Far more importantly, there is no established procedure to determine how a particular essay or proposal becomes part of the official Manual of Style. I don't understand how anyone can, with a straight face, claim this "guideline" enjoys strong or widespread support among editors. I think it's fair to say its status as a guideline is hotly disputed, particularly the ghastly What this guideline is not section.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 17:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Looking over that poll--which I should reiterate was far from unanimous--I tend to fall on the side of the 26 "support" voters who favor limiting or discouraging trivia sections. The problem is that since it was decided this is a guideline, the notion of limiting trivia sections is watered down and ultimately rendered completely impotent by the What this guideline is not section which contains ridiculous proclamations like:

• "it is better that [trivia] be poorly presented than not presented at all"
• "This guideline does not suggest always avoiding lists in favor of prose. Some information is better presented in a list format."

What respectable editor actually agrees with these statements? Ultimately this guideline is muddled, contradictory and without teeth.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 17:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Who wouldn't agree with the statement that sometimes information is better presented in a list than in paragraphs of prose? Why else did humans invent the list? And while I can understand people disagreeing with favoring poor presentation over non-presentation, this is a broad choice that Wikipedia seems to have made long ago: c.f. our deletion process. Christopher Parham (talk) 18:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, so how do we proceed? Is another poll in order, or is there some other mechanism to re-visit this issue? 82.20.28.142 (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally, rather than starting another poll (which is likely to conclude with similar results as before), I would recommend raising the issue on WT:MOS to solicit the input of editors who are interested in the good of the Manual of Style itself--and whether they think this guideline should be improved or struck down.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I've raised it at WT:MOS. Let's see what happens. 82.20.28.142 (talk) 18:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I've weighed in as well. It would be lovely to get some input from editors apart from the regular editors of this page.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 18:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The "weak consensus" 27-16 in the poll which established this page as a guideline (2006), is probably not unconnected with the changes (watering-down), which this guideline has gone through since then. The guideline represents a compromise between views, some extreme, held by various proponents. At Wikipedia Talk:Manual of style, discussions over arcane matters such as "dashes" or "dates" can often take megaBytes of discussion.

As here on thispage, the resultant guideline text represents a compromise, and the fact that various editors take up different "interpretations" of the guideline, whilst others seem to either in some cases ignore it, or go against it, is not an indicator that the guideline has completely lost support; that would be the case if there really were massive flouting of the guideline, by many editors, which isn't happening. Instead, there is the occasional editor who goes too far in deleting items (or adding items), and then it becomes some sort of "edit skirmish" as other editors weigh in to preserve their interpretation of the guideline. If two sections of the guideline(s), or two editor's interpretation of the guideline do not line up, this is still a minor issue to be dealt with between the editors of an article, and it probably also means that the issue is relatively unimportant to overall article or encyclopedia quality. As it happens, in this case, that is essentially what MoS-central says (it permits either approach).

The guideline should continue to reflect the (weak or strong) consensus, and extreme positions adopted by various editors at any particular article get dealt with by other interested editors, at the article or talkpage. Newbyguesses - Talk 19:05, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The "weak consensus" and the watering-down are unconnected events, at least chronologically. While this policy was never popular with editors who want Wikipedia's house style to resemble TV.com's, it only came under steady attack after several thousand articles were bot-tagged with {{Trivia}}.

Compromises since then are not stemming from WP:TRIV's advocates admitting the adoption was questionable. The current state of this guideline is more like the mid point of a tug-of-war between parties that simply want trivia sections, and parties that do not. / edg ☺ ☭ 20:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I guideline that basically says it's not okay to have trivia sections, but it's not okay to remove them either isn't much of a guideline at all. We really need to make it clearer, or stop claiming it has anything to do with policy.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 21:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that some editors especially some admins use the guideline to remove edits which do not reflect their particular world view. Albatross2147 (talk) 21:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Bad edits justified by misquoting policy are not the fault of policy. (Since I have not seen the edits in question, I do not know they were bad ones). To the best of my knowledge, this guideline has always clearly favored integration of quality data.

In many cases an entire Trivia section can be deleted because it is entirely (in the deleting editor's judgement) trivial, with nothing worth including in an encyclopedic article; this is not a bad practice, and when I see good stuff in a deleted mass, I usually grab it from History and integrate it, rather than reverting the deletion. Restoring entire trivia sections, and justifying this by saying WP:TRIV says not to delete trivia, is not very helpful, and foot-drags a necessary cleanup process. / edg ☺ ☭ 23:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

But who determines what is trivial? To a non-sporting fan, the entire industry of sporting statistics is trivial, but to the fans they are an important aspect of the game. (e.g. "This pitcher strikes out 80% of left-handed batters when a runner is on 2nd base with 2 outs.") And when a contributer adds a Trivia section, they are always fans, and it is therefore important to them, and it is therefore not trivial but an important aspect of the topic. Ergo, none of the Trivia sections should be deleted, they should all be allowed, Wikipedia should modify their guidelines, and some editors should learn to relax. End of discussion. NefariousPhD (talk) 06:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The solution is simple. Get rid of the part of this guideline that says it's not okay to delete trivia sections, and this foot-dragging would no longer be a problem.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 00:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Those two positions are hardly contradictory; the guideline makes clear that trivia sections are generally not ideal but that simply deleting them is not an effective way to solve the problem and often is more damaging than simply leaving the trivia section alone. A more careful approach, which retains useful information and presents it in the most appropriate way, is needed. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

In the absence of editors willing to implement "a more careful approach" (which actually requires work), simply retaining these ugly, amateurish lists--which this bogus "guideline" seems to espouse as the lesser of two evils--is to degrade the quality of articles. Getting rid of irrelevant garbage is never harmful; those who wish to scavenge the garbage for useful material (which, in my experience, is extremely rare in "trivia sections") are welcome to peruse the edit history, or to start from scratch.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 00:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I've always felt that Trivia sections are acceptable in early-stage, essentially pre-written articles, but should be outgrown. Bits of valuable metal should be extracted from the ore, with the remaining toxic pile either deleted or shipped to Wikia. In the past year, I've seen a few editors add Trivia sections because "every article has one". My objection has always been the giving of precedent to such sections as de facto style on Wikipedia. / edg ☺ ☭ 23:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we could look at taking the debate forward to action. The possibilities seem to be 1. Accept that trivia is not good and therefore the policy stays (but perhaps re-worked in some way). 2. The is no consensus on the pros and cons of trivia sections, in which case the policy would need to be substantially re-written to be more of a general "guide". 3. There is no need for any policy in this matter, in which case the policy can be discarded. I've done a lot of editing in the past, but have not been involved in policy formulation and debate. So where do we go from here? 82.20.28.142 (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I have proposed a modified version of this MOS, with some content integrated from WP:HTRIV (see the section above this one on this talk page). Perhaps someone would like to comment on the merits of that, and where there are difficulties, it can illuminate places where we do not yet have concensus. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 00:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

New section - header

This debate has reached a fruitful point. However the traditional next move forward is to focus on any minor edits which might b done to the projectpage, which is where it began in the first place.

No more than minor changes will normally be accepted by the talk-page participants on such a short guideline as this so, any suggestions?

Which of the (four) paragraphs needs work? Newbyguesses - Talk 00:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to integrate some content from WP:HTRIV

The idea of a merge between WP:TRIV and WP:HTRIV has been kicked around a few times, and in general it's been agreed that there are two seperate issues: formatting and content, which is discussed in WP:TRIV and WP:HTRIV respectively. The main reason against merging the two is to prevent the introduction of specific removal criteria, with the assumption that this can and will be used excessively/abusively.

However, I still do think there is some content in HTRIV that would make more sense presented in TRIV as opposed to HTRIV. I think WP:TRIV would benefit from an edited version of Wikipedia:Handling trivia#Should trivia be allowed on Wikipedia?, which works as a general recap of the long standing trivia debate.

I am less certain about integrating other content from that essay. Perhaps the Wikipedia:Handling trivia#Different types of trivia might be useful here as opposed to there, but with some "creative imagining", that could easily be misconstrued as criteria for removal. The "Recommendations for handling trivia" section would, of course, not be suitable for integration into this guideline at this point in time. Thoughts and comments? --NickPenguin_(contribs) 23:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to say in the abstract - I'd have to see a proposal. In general, I would be for anything that helps guide people who sincerely care about an article on how to deal with the article's content. However, I would oppose anything that would encourage any more mass deletion campaigns. It's actually quite easy to deal with trivia on an article-by-article basis if you have some rapport with other people working on an article. Wikidemo (talk) 17:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is my first attempt at updating this guideline by integrating the content from Wikipedia:Handling trivia#Should trivia be allowed on Wikipedia? Compare the diffs between my suggested version and the current version. EDIT At the suggestion of another user, I have created a draft page at WP:TRIVIA/draft--NickPenguin_(contribs) 22:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Reviews of first proposed update

Nick: I haven't looked at WP:HTRIV to see what changes were made, so the following is intended as suggestions for improving on this draft, and not as criticism of your writing:

• Trivia sections: "... and refering the reader to other articles or outside resources where more details can be found." I don't know if this conflicts with WP:EL, but it suggests an ideal that WP articles should be smaller and less comprehensive when external links can be found to carry the load. I don't think this should implied as a style or content goal. (And if it were, WP:TRIV would be the wrong place anyway.)
  • "a better way to organize an article ... whether in text, list, or table" should emphasize seamless, well-organized prose a bit more. Changing a trivia section to well-ordered lists of different types of trivia is not desirable. Neither is turning such into a table.
• Trivia articles is a good start, but needs to be more concise and easily readable. Maybe pull one or two really good points to explain why these articles should be avoided. And snip the "title" piece entirely; in the event such a judgment need be made on an article title, this can already be inferred logically from this section (and also because freestanding articles specifically about trivia are not notable).
• Guidance is also grown overlong, four paragraphs to say "don't delete good stuff over style issues" and "not all bullet lists are Trivia sections" (which may be 2 useful subsection headings). Also, the sentence "Trivia sections should not simply be categorically removed" will be misinterpreted by people who ignore the word categorically; some trivia sections can be removed in their entirety. (Incidentally, the word categorically may speak to intent, and thus good faith.)
• Other policies apply is as redundant as ever. While WP:NOT#IINFO is worth a mention, the section basically attempts to encapsulate all Wikipedia policies that advise the removal of information from an article. It's too much to include here. This section could be renamed Exclusion standards (but that is not in the spirit of watering down this guideline), with a bullet list of perhaps 3 key policy overview pages. / edg ☺ ☭ 01:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
• Also, by wither, I think what's meant is whether, or possibly whither (not recommended). Similarly, detracts should probably be distracts.

My biases: I don't favor the elimination of WP:HTRIV, since it contains specific suggestions that could never be included in a policy (which I believe WP:TRIV should be written as, regardless of its status). I am also agnostic about the need (beyond political) to address only style, avoiding issues of content. (Other policies apply as currently written seems to address content). / edg ☺ ☭ 01:52, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

• I've made some modifications to reflect your first 4 suggestions and corrected those spelling errors. I am not certain HTRIV should be eliminated entirely, but I do think this content in particular is more useful here than there. EDIT And I just removed the Other Policies apply section, as it's pretty much covered by the link in the opening to the content policies. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 02:20, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The integration of "Other policies applies" into the body works. Newbyguesses - Talk 03:38, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Reviews of this material

• Other section apply - This section, with a more appropriate HEADER, as User:edg says, basically just encapsulates the exclusion policies, and so runs counter to the prevailing mood of (watering down). However, I don't think the links themselves, or even the section, is redundant. It just needs to be delicately integrated, maybe, into other sections. As it stands, it just slots into the slightly split-personality style of the current text. Still think the merge is a positive, (see section below), and that the Trivia/Draft page (see below) can be a step forward. Newbyguesses - Talk 02:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Merge of both guidelines

That was a good move, in my h/opinion this works. More comments? Newbyguesses - Talk 00:57, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Overall I think that's a great effort. I'll hold my detailed comments until I can take more of a look but I think it gets to the point of why trivia sections themselves are to be discouraged, but the content within them has to be judged as content anywhere and either used or not.Wikidemo (talk) 01:04, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Two of the merged sections are off the mark

(This is in reference to Wikipedia:TRIVIA/draft.)

• Trivia sections: Invoking WP:IINFO is problematic; while it is certainly true that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, that phrase tends to be indiscriminately invoked to justify deletion of just about anything (including trivia sections and/or content). While there is consensus for the five specific types of information listed under IINFO, any other applications of it are contentious.
• Trivia articles: Pure trivia articles are certainly frowned upon -- they're the opposite of integration. Popular culture sections and articles, on the other hand, should not be lumped in with trivia. Though there are plenty of "pop culture" entries of questionable significance, pop culture sections in general are not necessarily discouraged -- see, for instance, the featured articles Chicago Bears#The Bears in popular culture and Vampire#In modern fiction and the former featured list Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc.

--Father Goose (talk) 07:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

The article already states emphatically that it is a style guideline, so WP:IINFO is worth invoking for how it speaks to style and organization. As for trivia articles, articles not organized as trivia sections (see WP:TRIVIA for what those are) don't apply. There is no reason to shield editors from the content implications of those guidelines. / edg ☺ ☭ 08:01, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

FG makes two good points here. Editing continues, on the Trivia/Draft]]. Newbyguesses - Talk 08:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Even by mentioning WP:NOT#IINFO, I don't think people could run around with this guideline and claim the ability to delete; when questioned they would actually hold up WP:NOT as their justification, not WP:TRIVIA.

With regards to the In popular culture article mention, the current reading of WP:IPC says that "Such sections [IPC section/articles] are discouraged but not forbidden; see the guideline Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections." Thus, the current wording of this draft is consistent with the current version of that essay. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 13:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Really, no-one is going to get away with a mass-deletion campaign. Editors of articles would put a stop to it. So the guideline should be improved if possible, without worrying about a mythical flood of deletions.Newbyguesses - Talk 14:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

If you'll notice, the current version of WP:TRIV (not the draft we're working on) doesn't lump "popular culture" sections in with trivia sections. Some editors may display the same intolerant attitude toward them, but how we must approach them is very different; the integration advice doesn't apply. A workable consensus for how to address popular culture sections and/or articles on Wikipedia has not yet formed, and the IPC essay reflects a time from a year ago when an aggressive campaign to purge IPC articles was underway. That's more a reflection on the bull-in-a-china-shop that is AfD than an expression of a consensus position.

"Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" is also a bull in a china shop. As a principle, it's fine, but as a policy, it's disastrously open-ended. Including such a broad reading of it in WP:TRIV just invites trouble, and overly-broad statements in WP:TRIV in the past have caused plenty of trouble. We should certainly describe the principles of organization in WP:TRIV, but not drag IINFO into it, since WP:NOT (its parent) covers content that is flat-out not permitted in Wikipedia, and does not do nuance.--Father Goose (talk) 21:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, in the current draft we already direct readers to the relevant content policies (in the lead, no doubt), so perhaps we can remove direct linking to WP:NOT entirely. As for mentioning IPC articles in this guideline, I am ambivalent. It just happened to be the example used in the paragraph I copied and edited from WP:HTRIV, and I have no particular attachments to it or any other particular sentence; it is the mood/feel/spirit we're looking for here. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 21:14, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Time to change NOT into a guideline. It's inherently absurd for the basic policies to be worded negatively. The truly core ones, the ones that should be policy, can be accommodated elsewhere. DGG (talk) 00:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• I removed the direct referencing to WP:NOT and WP:IPC from the draft. In the case of the latter though, I think pretty much everyone will know what that paragraph is making reference to, and thus I question it's accuracy. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 03:48, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Wiki is under loads of guidelines, I dont know about many but think that dissolving Trivia section is what they ought. I have a sort of personal( and rational) request of reviewing this change as Trivia is often the best way to look into an artcle in an encyclopedia. Rest is Wiki's popularity is in hands of you strategics...203.78.221.48 (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)MADHUR PARIHAR,INDIA

Further reflections on the draft, some action

After taking another look at this draft and the guideline, I used the draft as inspiration for some structural/wording changes to the guideline. I have integrated a few sentences here and there, and merged one section into the rest of the guideline. And now that some editors have done some copyediting to this guideline, I am not so certain that my original proposal to integrate the content from WP:HTRIV is necerssary. If anything, it seems that many of the ideas are duplicated and said in a slightly different way. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 18:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I like name changes!

...and since we haven't had one in a while, I thought it was time to shake things up again, as I'm so good at doing. I notice that most style guidelines are named "Manual of Style (something specific)", as is shown from a look at Category:Wikipedia style guidelines. I don't think that would be such a bad idea for this guideline as well, since its status as a style guideline still seems to be something many editors tend to miss. Post your flames opinions on this. Thanks. Equazcion •✗/C • 02:39, 21 Feb 2008 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that. However, be aware of this conversation.--Father Goose (talk) 04:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Gah! Two people! Seriously, that doesn't seem like cause for concern, but we'll of course discuss things with them should they object here. Equazcion •✗/C • 05:17, 21 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Bit by bit removal

Can someone point me the part of the trivia guideline ( or whatever we are calling it this week ) that covers someone removing items bit by bit .Garda40 (talk) 16:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

That would probably be the Guidance section, though I assume you're concerned about a particular article. Items shouldn't be removed simply because they reside in a trivia section; they should only be removed if they don't belong in the article at all. If you tell us which article you're concerned about maybe we could offer more specific advise. Equazcion •✗/C • 17:25, 25 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits

I saved NickPenguin's changes to Wikipedia:Trivia sections/draft2. I reverted those changes basically because they were major changes, not just copyedit-type stuff, and there didn't seem to be consensus for most of it yet. Specific changes were:

• Removal of "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed", which doesn't seem like a good idea.
• Moving content into a section titled "Trivia sections", when the entire guideline is about trivia sections to begin with
• Moving the "Not all list sections are trivia sections" section into the lead, and moving much of the lead down into the "Trivia sections" section. This seems like an arbitrary exchange, and rather than have a redundant "Trivia sections" section, it seems like the "not all lists" content would serve better as the separate section -- especially for emphasis. Remember that some people who read guidelines just glance at the "headlines". It helps to give important points their own headers. Equazcion •✗/C • 19:26, 29 Feb 2008 (UTC)

I'd like the not categorically removed point kept, but appended with "unless it is appropriate to remove all the content within the section" or something like that. It would get the point across that removing the sections just because they're called Trivia sections isn't a good method to use, but it would also not ban the removal of the section if all the content in it is truly inappropriate for the article. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 20:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

What if we made "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed" a section title? --NickPenguin_(contribs) 20:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, per Wikipedia:Five pillars about Wikipedia containing elements of specialized encyclopedias, apparently there are specialized encyclopedias on trivia. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 20:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

←To Bill: "Trivia sections should not be categorically removed" (emphasis added) means that they shouldn't be removed just because they are trivia sections. By definition is still leaves open other motivations for removing the sections. Also I don't think specifically telling people they can remove the entire section is a good idea; I think it's best to keep the focus on individual items. Then, if all the items have been removed, the section header can obviously be removed. People should be focusing on the items themselves anyway, rather than on the question of "should a trivia section be here". Nick: I don't think another separate section is really necessary... the stuff in the lead right now, I think, should probably stay there, rather than be moved down in favor of the "not all lists..." content. I don't see what the value is in that reorganization. Equazcion •✗/C • 20:32, 29 Feb 2008 (UTC)

Style Guideline Validity

Taking the trivia section on a movie page removes one of the best and most unique parts of Wikipedia. Not sure where else to put this but it is an idea that needs to be considered. 67.183.201.165 (talk) 09:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Since IMDB and TV.com writeups both have "Trivia" sections, this feature is hardly unique. It should be considered that encyclopedias are written without "Trivia" sections. This guideline does not advise editors to remove this information, but to integrate such information into the article. / edg ☺ ☭ 09:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I have stayed out of discussions for the last several weeks hoping that a useful guideline would emerge. While there has been considerable progress (easy for me to say, things are going in the general direction I like), the basic problem remains unresolved. Some of us are categorically opposed to trivia sections and will continue to remove them while others of us see trivia sections as of value in some circumstances. After several months of discussion and revision, it seems to me that the real problem is not the language of the the style guides, it is the unwillingness of some editors to accept that others do not agree with nor are willing to conform to their stylistic ideals. Personally, every time someone high handedly informs me that trivia is always avoidable, I want to run out and add a trivia section to the driest, most stylistically rigid articles in the whole project. I resist the urge, but every time I see an attack on one of my favorite articles, it angers me. I suggest an alternative solution. We continue to discourage trivia sections - the guidelines as they are now written are really pretty good - and we agree to leave those sections which are in existence alone until after thorough discussion and consensus is reached on each and every single trivia section. Those who simply can't bear to see anything fun or joyful in our wiki will then have to pursuade the rest of us before killing things off; those who have carelessly 'dumped' useless or random data into a trivia section will also be helped to eliminate or clean it up. Oh, and a bot could remove those annoying trivia cleanup notices.Panthera germanicus (talk) 18:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)panthera_germanicus 18:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)Panthera germanicus (talk::that's ::There's a distinction between the section, and the content. Most of what accumulates of trivia sections is valid content, but is better moved elsewhere -- the production details go with the production, the use in subsequent media goes in a section on that, and so forth. The real problem is with the people who want to diminish the general extent of coverage of fictional and entertainment topics. they should simply work on what they do want to work on, and try to attain a general tolerance of each others' interests. DGG (talk) 20:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)