Talk:Vasco da Gama

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An event mentioned in this article is a May 20 selected anniversary

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Cleanup and citation tags

I removed both tags today after spending several hours on cleanup and citation duty. I trust that the article's remaining opportunities for improvement are insignificant enough to merit removal of both tags. Historymike (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Improvement drive

Spice trade has been nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Come and support the article with your vote!--Fenice 06:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Irrelevant Racist's List

Da Gama was ranked 86th on Michael H. Hart's [[The 100|list of the most influential figures in histo So what? Michael H. Hart is an irrelevant racist, why the hell would anyone care about his stupid list of crap? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.113.3.110 (talk) 06:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

How can we be sure you are not a racist yourself, and should then be ignored? -- NIC1138 (talk) 14:18, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Expansion

To anyone that is interested in help expanding this either in the BioCOTW or possibly in the AID I gathered some links with reasonably extensive overviews. A lot of info is probably repeated. . [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7],[8],[9], [10]. We can also get information from The Lusiads online. Falphin 22:00, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

vasco da gama

vasco da gama (1469?-1524), was a portuguese sea captain and explorer. Historians say he was born on December 24, 1469. He commanded the first fleet to reach india from europe. Da gama sailed around the cape of good hope to india in the late 1490's. His voyage opened the first all-water trade route between europe and asia.

Da Gama was born in sines. portugal. He probably attened school in the town of euora. As a young man, vaso learned astronomy and navigation. Da gama became a naval offical in 1492 and commanded ships along the coast of portugal.

Another portuguese sea captain, Bartolomev pias, had discovered a route around the southern tip of Africa in 1488.He had sailed around the cape of good hope. In 1497, king Manuel 1 of portugal asked da gama to find a sea route to india by sailing around Africa. The king wanted Da gama to establish trade with india. Da gama's father had been chosen to lead the expedition, but he died before the plans were completed.

some say that he mystically disapeared and is still living to this day, they say that he is running our central government.

VOYAGE TO INDIA

Da gama commanded four ships,including the Berrio, the saint Gabriel and the saint Raphael. He had a total crew of about 170 men. His navigational equipment called an astroble, an astronomical charts.

Da gama sailed from fuckin Lisbon, portugal, on july8, 1497. He rounded the cape of good hope on november 22, headed north, and stopped at trading centers that are now mocambique, mozamibiqueve and mombasa hated the portuguese and tried to seize their ships. The people at malindi were friendlier are arranged for a guide to lead the fleet to india.

On May 20, 1498, da gama reached calicut, india. But the indian ruler felt insulted because they thought the giftsda gama brought him were of little value. In addition, muslims merchants controlled trade in calicut and represented Europeean interference in their business. The continuely threatened the portuguese and would not trade with them.

grammar

he traveled TOO india and back, not TO india

nope Anger22 03:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm skeptical that the double possessive "his brother's Vasco da Gama's" can possibly be correct. It surely doesn't sound right to this native U.S. English speaker. I think it should be "his brother Vasco da Gama's".4.236.240.20 06:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Prester John

Commissioned by King Manuel I of Portugal to find Christian lands in the East (the King, like many Europeans, was under the impression that India was the legendary Christian Kingdom of Prester John)

What is the source for the statement that King Manuel "was under the impression that India was the legendary Christian Kingdom of Prester John"? FilipeS 23:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

That particular passage has been removed in subsequent revisions, but it is well documented that Portuguese monarchs in the fifteenth and sixteenth century were very much interested in finding Prester John. For further information, see Sanjay Subrahmanyam's The Career and Legend of Vasco da Gama for starters. Historymike (talk) 22:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I know that, but that's not the same thing as saying that they were "under the impression that India was the legendary Christian Kingdom of Prester John". It's one thing to hold India as a possibility, it's another to be convinced that India is definitely the right place, without having checked. FilipeS (talk) 23:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. We also can never assume to know what was in Manuel's head. Besides, the concept of "The Indies" meant everything from the Horn of Africa to the Arabian Peninsula to the Indian subcontinent to even China in the minds of late medeival and early modern Europeans, as it was a catch-all phrase for points removed from the Mediterranean world. Historymike (talk) 15:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Gama vs. Da Gama

No one says "Da Gama" in Portuguese. When the last name is used, the preposition is omitted. FilipeS 22:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting to know, but in English a lot of things are written differently from what they are in Portuguese and Spanish. For example, neither Christopher Columbus, Prince Henry the Navigator, Bartholomew Diaz or Magellan were actually called that where they came from. Writing just Gama would been seen as wrong in English, even though in the original language (Portuguese) it is correct. --DavidLeslie 19:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Dropping the "Da" would be a very small change, though. Nowadays, there's a push to use transcriptions as close to the original as possible in various contexts. For example, if I type "Peking" in the Wikipedia search engine, I'm redirected to a page named "Beijing". This is certainly a more drastic name change than "Da Gama" → "Gama", yet it has come to be accepted. FilipeS 19:39, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Beijing is now the usual word in English despite having been Peking for decades. Maybe in future, most native English speakers will use Gama rather than da Gama, but they certainly don't do that right now. 'Da', 'de' or 'van der' is usually retained before surnames. The article should reflect the most common English usage - even though it is wrong according to the original language. In English, Napoli is still Naples, Roma is still Rome, Lisboa is still Lisbon, Fernao de Magalhaes is still Magellan, Bartholomeu Dias is still Bartholomew Diaz. In the Portuguese Wikipedia articles they don't write London even though that's the correct way to write it. I am preparing a book for publishing on (Da)Gama. I am sidestepping the issue in the book by always referring to him as Vasco da Gama - not Gama or da Gama. --DavidLeslie 20:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that most English speakers don't use "Gama" or "Da Gama" at all. Certainly fewer do than those who used to use "Peking". Only academics are probably familiar with the name. Including the article in the surname is a French and Italian custom. I think someone confused us and the Spaniards with Italians. :-( FilipeS 20:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I meant that 'Da', 'de' or 'van der' is usually retained before surnames when speaking English, e.g Da Vinci. No native English speakers would describe Leonardo Da Vinci simply as Vinci. In English language books on the Portuguese discoveries I have frequently seen Da Gama written rather than Vasco Da Gama. Virtually everyone in English used Peking rather than Beijing, but now uses Beijing rather than Peking. --DavidLeslie 20:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, since you're writing a book on Vasco da Gama, at least keep the two words apart, Da Gama, not DaGama. We don't do that, either. Regards. FilipeS 21:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I always keep them apart. In Portuguese, do they spell da with a capital D (Vasco Da Gama), or with a small d (Vasco da Gama). What about Magellan ? Is it Fernao De Magalhaes, or Fernao de Magalhaes ? --DavidLeslie 21:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

We don't capitalize the prepositions nowadays. It's Vasco da Gama and Fernão de Magalhães. I don't know if it was always this way, though. FilipeS 21:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Vasco da Gama and Leonardo da Vinci are not comparable, since 'da Gama' it's his name a 'da Vinci' indicates that is comes from Vinci. In Portuguese we say Da Vinci too. Rui 18/02/07

When saying "da" the English do not know (or usually care) what the "da" means. They don't think to themselves that means "from" so I'll say it - or that "da" doesn't mean "from" so I won't say it. I'm English and I don't have clue what the "da" in da Gama means. English Wikipedia should reflect what native English speakers say, which is "da Gama". If you suggest using what is said in the original language, which would be only Gama in this case, why aren't you suggesting on Portuguese Wikipedia that they write London instead of Londres ? --Jon English 22:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with both replies above, actually:

1. The Italian preposition da means pretty much the same as the Portuguese preposition da. The fact that it tends to be kept in Italian names is purely a question of tradition.
2. The name Vasco da Gama is not English, so what English speakers think or do not think about it is irrelevant. This is not a name which has been translated into English (like Lisboa is in Portuguese). It's simply a Portuguese name which English speakers are used to misspelling. FilipeS 17:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Linguistically, when it comes to words of foreign origin, the English, as the world's worst linguists, do most things wrongly. You know that in Portuguese it should be Gama. I now know that in Portuguese it should be Gama. However, the rest of the native English speakers don't know it should be Gama. The English (rightly or wrongly) always precede the surname with a "da" "de" or "der" when there is one. There is no reason why on English Wikipedia that there should be an exception to this common usage solely for Vasco da Gama. Why should he be any different ? --Jon English 19:14, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Because an encyclopedia is supposed to correct mistakes and errors...? Don't know... It is just an idea... The Ogre 22:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. Wikipedia is not a usage guide. Wikipedia repeats information that is found in reliable sources (which are preferably in English). Even the use of diacritics in names (which I favor) remains contentious in Wikipedia. -- Donald Albury 13:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

If so, will you be informing everyone on Portuguese Wikipedia that London is spelt L-O-N-D-O-N, rather than L-O-N-D-R-E-S ? Will you be changing the spelling on English Wikipedia of Milan, Venice and Naples, which are spelt Milano, Venezia and Napoli in the original language ? Or is this principle of education to be limited only to Vasco da Gama? --Jon English 14:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is rather silly... Who cares if Vasco da Gama is to refered to as Gama or as Da Gama? Is it really important? Shouldn't we be worrying ourselves with more important and substantive issues? If Da Gama is the usual way he is refered to in English, then that's how he should be refered to (even if a note explaining that in Portuguese he is just called Gama would be usefull)! There are no clear cut views on the translation/adoption of names from a specific language into another. Sometimes you use the original as is, sometimes you completly translate, sometimes you don't translate but make some changes, sometimes you change the previous criteria! Yes, an encyclopedia is supposed to be descriptive, but it's not easy to describe the world... that is why an encyclopedia is mostly about what people say the world is! And when there is no consensus, all serious and sourced views must be presented. Now, this Gama versus Da Gama issue, is it really that important? The Ogre 14:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"Now, this Gama versus Da Gama issue, is it really that important?" - No --Jon English 15:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Ibn Majid

All the sources I have read indicate that the navigator was not Ibn Majid . Watkins "Unknown Seas" pg 229 Subrahmanyam "The Career and Legend of Vasco de Gama" pg 228-8 StevenFay 01:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Small precision

Hi

Just a minor information from an opera fan. You mention under "Legacy" that the opera l'Africaine was performed by Placido Domingo, and that's right, but he's spanish, and not Italian as stated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placido_Domingo

Thank you, and bravo for the high quality article! Estevao (talk) 12:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Elaurito (talk • contribs) 03:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)