Talk:Primary texts of Kabbalah

Newly created page. Text moved from Kabbalah, with a link/link para from and to that page. Abafied 13:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Torah as a primary text of kabbalah

Including the Torah as a primary kabbalistic text is strange and perhaps a bit POV. I know, I know, kabbalah is all about the Torah, the Torah is read as a mystical text by kabbalists etc. But only some kabbalists/kabbalah enthusiasts (perhaps there are many such people) would say that the Torah is primarily a mystical text. Most Jews, I understand, see the Torah also as the source of halakha, ethics, cosmogony, Israel's past, and recorded prophecy. In other words, Torah is the primary text of Judaism, not a primary text of kabbalah. The same cannot be said of any of the primary texts of kabbalah (again, unless you are one of the above mentioned kabbalists/enthusiasts).

In short, the Torah does not belong in this category. One can quite easily read the Torah without reading it mystically.

This article's content in the section on the Torah is also rather meaningless in this context, despite the citations. It does nothing at all to demonstrate that the Torah is a mystical work, rather it starts with that assumption and develops the thought further.

Lastly, including the Torah as a primary text of the kabbalah opens this article up to very broad criteria, generating a nearly endless list of texts that may merit inclusion. If the Torah is a primary kabbalistic text, then why not the Talmud? Midrashim? How about the Shulchan Aruch, it contains Zohar-based practices.

I know this issue came up back on the Kabbalah page, but I find it even more glaring on this newer smaller page. —חנינא

• The article quotes The Torah as a primary text of Kabbalah, not as primarily a Kabbalistic text; there is a huge difference between the two. If there is any question about the latter, perhaps it's best dealt with on wiki's Torah discussion page. As all Kabbalah is predicated on The Torah, its inclusion in this article is of prime importance. Abafied 13:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

There may be a very clear semantic distinction between "primary text of Kabbalah" and "primarily a Kabbalistic text," but there is no "huge difference between the two" for purposes of an encyclopedic article on the former. Any text that is not primarily mystical in nature cannot be primarily kabbalistic and therefore cannot be by itself a primary source for kabbalistic doctrines. While "all kabbalah is predicated on the Torah," it is so predicated by its own exposition of the Torah, not from a set of doctrines explicit in the Torah itself.

This discussion belongs here, where I raise the question of the Torah's inclusion, not on the Torah talkpage, which is unrelated to that question.

The imporance of the Torah to Kabbalistic thought is explained thoroughly on the Kabbalah page and does not necessecitate the inclusion of Torah on this page where inappropriate. Certainly, the actual content here on Torah is irrelevant to this article and should be on the parent Kabbalah page if anywhere. —חנינא

"While "all kabbalah is predicated on the Torah," it is so predicated by its own exposition of the Torah..." Of course it is; ergo, the Torah is a primary text of Kabbalah. That is the only logical conclusion. The many kabbalistic doctrines derive from exegesis of the Torah, which again makes the Torah a primary reference point and thus a primary text. That is exactly why the Torah is relevant to this page.abafied (talk) 00:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

As a complete outsider to this subject, I must agree with the questioning of the inclusion of the torah in this list. The argument made by abified is not unreasonable, however the content of the section does very little to explain the relationship between the Torah and Kabbalah. It instead summarizes what the Torah is. I suggest the section on the Torah be removed (maybe mention it in passing on the lead) or the content of the section be completely rewritten to focus on the relationship between Kabbalah and Torah. -Verdatum (talk) 18:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. It could be better written, especially as important kabbalists such as Nachmanides wrote kabbalistic commentaries on the Torah. I'll do it when I've time. abafied (talk) 07:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

As a consequence of the effort to remove the important Torah section of this article, it is my intention to return it to the Kabbalah article from which this article was taken. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 15:13, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I don't feel that is particularly nessisary at this time. According to WP:SIZE, the article on kabbalah is fairly large as is. Removing the torah content is still less than half of the content of this article. So merging the remaining content would be a pretty large addition to the kabbalah article. Could you justify your position? -Verdatum (talk) 17:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem I see is that, now that this is a separate article, there is going to be an inclination for those whose interests are are not in traditional Jewish Kabbalah to make changes here that would clearly be unacceptable in the Kabbalah article itself (such as removing the Torah section.) On the other hand, the Kabbalah article could get along without this [1], which is interesting but adds little to the understanding of what Kabbalah is. It is such material that I wanted to move, and which could (if expanded)make an interesting separate article. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 20:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't understand your argument. Why do you feel there is going to be an inclination for those whose interests are are not in traditional Jewish Kabbalah to make changes here that would clearly be unacceptable in the Kabbalah article itself? Even if such is the case, what prevents interested editors from watching this page and reverting or discussing any edits they feel to be inappropriate? Regarding Kabbalah#Claims_for_authority, that sort of proposal belongs in the talkpage for kabbalah, not here. Still, according to WP:SUMMARY and WP:SPINOUT you should expand the content first, and then make a separate page. Likewise, to merge content back into a parent article, you should reduce one, the other, or both first, and then merge the content. As I interpret it, the general motivation of the guidelines are to prevent constant merging and splitting of content just for the sake of maintaining size. -Verdatum (talk) 21:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

We can argue about it more, if necessary, after I return this to where it belongs -- the Kabbalah article. At this point I am just stating my intention so no one can complain it is a surprise. Malcolm Schosha (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, Verdatum. I oppose a move back for no good reason whatsoever. The section here on the Torah needs rewriting; that is all. I stand by the reasons I put up previously; the Torah is a primary text of Kabbalah (in that it is a source text), though not primarily a kabbalistic text. abafied (talk) 22:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not out to offend, but I still think the need for a Torah section here is nonexistant. It is like including Torah in a list of midrashic texts, or in a discussion of halakhic codes. Of course the Torah is both a major subject and object of Kabbalah(—just as the text of the Torah is the subject of midrash, and as its mitzvot are an object of halakha). But that doesn't make the text of the Torah itself a "primary text of Kabbalah" in the sense that the Zohar is.

Two factors, I think, have made this more of a heated issue than an objective observer would have expected:

• Much Kabbalah purports to be the innermost, true(est) meaning of the Torah. For those whose view of Orthodoxy and Judaism is dominated by Kabbalah, this claim is acccepted a priori as true. That's OK, and this point should be discussed where apropriate, but it is leading some sensitive editors to insert "Torah" inappropriately into areas such as our article. I suggest considering, again, a less controversial issue—the relationship of the text of the Torah and midrashic texts. Because Orthodox Jews accept midrashic and nonmidrashic readings of the Torah as simultaneously valid, one would have no objection to excluding the Torah from a list of midrashic texts. Our situation is analogous; it is more heated since Kabbalah often says it is the deep meaning of Torah, but that should not influence this article's pursuit of objectivity.
• The Torah, especially when one is discussing the "sod"/"nistar" secret aspects of it, is a rather broad concept inclusive of all of the wellspring of God's teachings for Jews and humankind. This way of using the term "Torah" is perfectly legitimate, but what one is then not discussing is the text of the Torah itself (i.e. the Five Books). What I'm saying becomes obvious when one considers the importance of the Torah she-be-al Peh (Oral Torah) to the broad sense of "the Torah." This article is quite plainly confusing these two meanings of "the Torah." An article about "texts" should not be discussing Torah in the very broad sense.

These points hold whether or not this article is stand-alone or part of the mother-article. Certaintly, if this article reverts into a section of the "Kabbalah" page, the content of the "Torah" subsection here properly belongs elsewhere in that article. חנינא (talk) 01:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

More Torah

On your first factor, Hanina, the opposite holds. Precisely because, in their works, Torah is often quoted chapter and verse by kabbalists, it is obvious that they are using it as a primary source. That is why there should be an explanation on this page.

On the second, the same applies; kabbalists use particular texts/verses of the Torah; they do not "broadly" allude to the Torah. (I refer you to, as just one example, Gikatilla's Sha'arei Orah.) Many did that precisely because they did not want to be seen to drift away from scripture, needing its authority particularly because they were dealing with sod rather than exoteric interpretation.

I still say that all this section needs is to be rewritten to make it more relevant, and not translated back to the Kabbalah page. abafied (talk) 10:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)