Talk:Prunus mume

Plum or apricot?

Aren't ume plums, and not apricots? Also, what is the difference in making ume-juice and ume-shu?

Yes, but apricots are plums too, so are peaches, if we are to stick to scientific classification. Ume-shu is alcoholic. — Zeimusu | Talk 00:42, 2005 Feb 3 (UTC)

Ume is often called Japanese plum in English but it is actually of Chinese origin and a kind of apricot. On the other hand sumomo (Prunus salicina Lindl.) is also called Japanese plum and it is plum. --163.139.215.193 17:16, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Plum" is a not a species specific word, it could apply to any of the Prunus genus except the laurals. Ume are not apricots (P. armeniaca), nor are they true plums (P. domestica). Certainly they are closly related to both. Ume may be more closely related to P. armenica (this could be noted if true), but to call them apricots is wrong and misleading. Sumomo are also Chinese according to ja.wikipedia) Zeimusu | (Talk page) 05:54, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

This page needs to be split, the recipe needs to be moved to wiki cookbook, and the introduction needs to be expanded to mention range, season, ecolology and human uses: decorative, pharmecutical, and for eating. see also umeboshi, which also needs to be taken to the cook book — Zeimusu | Talk 00:42, 2005 Feb 3 (UTC)

Ive created a sumomo article, it needs work.

This article vs Plum

Can someone clarify the link/difference between this article and Plum, both here and there? This article presently says that the Ume is a form of "asian plum". But the plum article does not meantion the word "mei/ume" at all.

I've posted this here because obviously there are people who know a lot about this species of the plum.

Also, the "plum" article keeps talking about the Republic of China's national flower being the "plum blossom". However, would it not be more accurately the "mei" blossom? Should that information be excised and perhaps moved to this article instead? Or should it be clarified over at plum? --Sumple (Talk) 12:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for writing. This article covers a species of Prunus native to East Asia: Prunus mume (known as ume in Japanese, maesil in Korean, and mei in Chinese).

Although it's referred to as a "plum," the ume is apparently more closely related to the apricot (another Prunus species) than to the European plums.

The blossom in Taiwan is mei/Prunus mume so that change should be made in the plum article. There are other plums grown in China and other East Asian countries, including European plums and li/sumomo. If you have more questions, just ask. Badagnani 16:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yabai and hibai

If the names "yabai" and "hibai" translate as "ume" then why isn't it "ya-ume" or "hi-ume"? What does "bai" mean? This should be explained and hiragana/kanji given. Badagnani 17:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "bai" is another reading of 梅.

• yabai 野梅 やばい
• hibai 緋梅 ひばい

"Bai" is mainly used in compound words (jukugo), not usually by itself. So you can say "Bai means ume" but I don't think you can say "Ume is also called bai". Does that make sense? --163.139.215.193 15:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

POV

The article is written in a very Japanese-POV way. The article seems to take Ume as a Japanese flower (for example, all the names are given only in Japanese. "Cultural significance refers only to its significance in Japan"), while actually it originates in China and is the national emblem for the Republic of China. I suggest the article be re-written so that its significance in both the Chinese and Japanese culture can be expressed. Aran|heru|nar 05:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you read the article again? Every section discusses something about this fruit vis-a-vis China and/or Taiwan. We can't help that the best known name in English, like many other foods, is the Japanese name, but the Chinese origin of this fruit, as well as Chinese uses of it, are certainly already acknowledged in the article. If you can be specific about the POV you see in each paragraph, we'll take it from there, but your criticism is vague as it stands now. Badagnani 05:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

E.g. this paragraph:

"Ume juice is extracted by preserving the fruits in sugar. It tastes sweet and acidic, and is a refreshing drink, often enjoyed in the summer. In Korea, maesil juice, which is marketed as a healthful tonic, is enjoying increasing popularity. Umeshu (梅酒, sometimes translated as "plum wine") is a Japanese alcoholic drink made by steeping green ume in shochu (燒酎, clear liquor). It is sweet and smooth. The taste and aroma of ume-shu can appeal to even those people who normally dislike alcohol. A similar liquor in Korea, called maesilju, is marketed under various brand names including mae hwa su, and mae chui soon.

Umeboshi 梅干 are pickled ume. Flavoured with salt and purple shiso (perilla) leaves, they are red in color and quite salty and sour, and therefore eaten sparingly. Umeboshi are generally eaten with rice as part of a bento."

Ume juice is rarely seen in China and is popular in Japan, and yet it makes only one small reference to the country it actually refers to. "Often enjoyed in the summer" is not only POV for a country, but is POV as a whole, and so is "can appeal to even those people who normally dislike alcohol". Thanks.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I was just in a local Chinese supermarket (in Cleveland, Ohio, USA) and there were several brands of China-produced "mei" (梅) juice (both smoked and unsmoked) in plastic bottles and canned. The summer reference you mention can probably be fixed with one or two added words like "in Japan." I still don't see what the problem is, and you're free to add to the article to make it more descriptive of Chinese and Taiwanese uses of the fruit. Badagnani 07:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Another example is that it states its uses and significance in Japan first and foremost, without even mentioning which country it refers to, and then add "Also in China" at the end of the sentence, e.g. "The tree was also well loved and celebrated in China", "it is also the national flower of the Republic of China)".Aran|heru|nar 07:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This shouldn't be too hard to fix. Do you agree that the fruit is more popular in Japan (and Korea) than it is in China? If not, then it should be balanced somehow. Badagnani 07:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on it. Is there "mei" liquor in China or Taiwan? Badagnani 07:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Mei/Ume is more popular in Japan than in China. Mei is one of the traditional four flowers of China, and its significance is immense (i.e. it is mentioned many times in Shijing). Ume is probably more well-known in English as the US tends to import a lot of Japanese merchandise after WWII. By the way, the Mei blossom symbolizes nobleness and being "men of honour" (君子) in Chinese culture [1]. Some also deemed it lucky [2], and it has, probably in the modern era, been used to symbolize revolution and struggle [3].

All of this is interesting and important information. You should add it into the article. Probably whoever wrote most of the article was a Japanophile, and knew most about Japan but not much about China, like you do. So we all can strengthen articles from the knowledge we have. Badagnani 08:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added some information concerning it being a symbol for nobleness, though I don't yet have an English source that can be put there. Thanks for the work. Aran|heru|nar 07:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added a little more information. I've tried to make the opening more balanced by listing the Jap, Chn, and Kor names in parallel. I've put the Japanese name first because that seems the most common name by which the fruit is known in English. I've also made some other edits to make sentences sound more universal in tone. --Sumple (Talk) 10:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Nice work, guys. There's a minor problem - half the "梅" in the article links to Wiktionary (while half doesn't). Don't you think one link is enough? Or should we link every Chinese word to a Wiktionary? It seems strange we're just linking some of them (randomly).

Another thing - aren't Umeboshi and Huamei sometimes called "prune" in English? Should we include the word along with a link? Aran|heru|nar 05:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

A few things: 1) I think the additional "mei" wikilinks were for words containing "mei" like "wumei," or "maesil," or whatever. You're right, a wikilink for "mei" should probably appear just once in the first instance, but it looks funny in a multi-character word like "wumei" to just wikilink one of the characters. 2) I never heard umeboshi or huamei called "prune" in English. Where did you see that translation? 3) a question: do Chinese make any kind of "mei" wine or liquor or is it just Japanese and Koreans that do this? One does see something called "plum wine" in North American Chinese restaurants, but I think it's usually a Japanese-produced thing, not so much for Chinese tastes. Badagnani 06:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

On the plum liquor question: I've seen/read about plum wine or plum liquor mentioned in books and tv shows set in ancient China. I don't know how widespread that was, though. In the Romance of the Three Kingdoms there's a famous scene between Cao Cao and Liu Bei which involved plums and wine - but separately - the plum, I think, was eaten while drinking wine. In any case, I've never seen made-in-China plum wine here in Australia - usually they are Korean-made.

On the prune question - I thought prunes are preserved plums - the other kind. They certainly look different. --Sumple (Talk) 09:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Osmanthus/chrysanthemum

The article says that Chinese mei juice is commonly flavored with guihua (Sweet Osmanthus) flowers. But photos on the Internet show juhua (chrysanthemum) flowers floating in cups of what appears to be boiled wumei. Can chrysanthemum thus be added to the article in this context? Also, isn't wumei boiled (sometimes along with red hibiscus flowers) to create a refreshing drink? This should be clarified as it's not only for medicinal purposes, and the "sour plum juice" then wouldn't really be a juice, but a kind of herbal tea, as it's made from boiling dried plums. Thanks in advance for your expertise with these questions. Badagnani 08:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I guess so. Sour plum juice is probably a tea rather than a juice. I've never tried (seen) mei/plum juice with chrysanthemum. Osmanthus flavoured plum juice/soup/tea is darker than the one in the picture - it's more of a Coke colour. Could be different regional varieties. --Sumple (Talk) 09:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I just tried some of that dark-colored osmanthus/mei juice and wanted that photo for the article but none of the ones I found were as good or clear as the light-colored juice photo I ended up adding. I described the color of the dark one as "purplish-black" or something like that. Badagnani 09:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's what appears to be a photo of wumei tea with floating juhua flowers. Is that traditional? http://info.agri.hc360.com/zt/050622/index.shtml Badagnani 09:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The weird thing is if you click on the photo of the wumei tea with juhua, you get a closeup photo of what looks like yangmei, not wumei! http://info.agri.hc360.com/2005/06/23091413194.shtml Badagnani 09:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Haha. I wonder what happened there? Pretty sure yangmei is something else entirely.... --Sumple (Talk) 10:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

At the time the plant was introduced to Japan and the name borrowed, the Chinese pronunuciation would not have been the modern méi. I have added a reconstructed pronunciation given in Kodansha's 『語源辞典』(山口佳紀, ed.) --RJCraig 04:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting that the pronunciation is similar to the Cantonese pronunciation. Cantonese and Korean seem to retain many of the old Chinese pronunciations, including those with consonant endings. Badagnani 04:27, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I didn't go ahead and hazard a guess at Old or Middle Chinese because of the missing date of introduction. Since someone else had already quoted the modern Chinese there, I just put it in parentheses. But I felt the section was misleading as it was originally.

I don't know very much Cantonese or Korean, but your observation chimes with my own. Probably has something to do with the greater phonetic inventory in those languages? Modern Japanese is a bit poor in that respect! --RJCraig 04:40, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Prunus?

I don't accept the current assertion in the article that "Ume" is the "most common" name by which that fruit is known in English. If you try a google search of Ume, the only results which are actually about the fruit/tree is this Wikipedia article, and a few websites about Japan which tend to parenthesise Ume after "Japanese Plum".

By contrast, either "Chinese plum" or "Chinese plum" bring up many more relevant results. Also, I'm reading Yu Zhuoyun's Palaces of the Forbidden City (great book, btw, if anyone's interested in that kind of thing. very big and heavy too, so worth your money in paper) (Viking:New York, 1984; Chinese version: Commercial Press:Hong Kong, 1982), and it refers to this plant as "Prunus". I wonder how common is that usage in English? --Sumple (Talk) 23:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It's extremely widely known in English as "ume" (particularly in its use in "umeboshi," or translated as "Japanese pickled plums," which are well known in health food stores and in the macrobiotic diet), as well as related items such as ume maki suchi and umeboshi vinegar. Chinese fresh "mei" aren't generally available and the pickled and/or dried versions are not well known among the general population, nor are Korean "maesil." "Chinese plum" can refer to li (李) as well and isn't the most commonly used name in English to refer to this fruit. "Prunus" is a Latin name and would be used to refer to the species as a whole by botanists. We don't usually refer to dogs as "canis," for example. Badagnani 23:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you supply some evidence that "ume" is commonly used in North America as you claim? The use of "ume" in "umeboshi" etc is a different matter because that refers to a specific product. As used in English, umeboshi is a single word and not separable into "ume" and "boshi" parts. To give an analogy, that "bonzai" is the common English name for dwarf shrubbery does not mean that "bon" is the common English name for pots.

In my experience, the fruit or tree is usually referred to as "Chinese plum" or "Japanese plum", and I think a Google search bears that out. Li (李) by contrast is usually just "plum", not "Chinese plum".

To start you off, ume does not appear in the Macquarie Dictionary, which is authority for Australian English, nor does it appear in the Oxford English Dictionary nor any of the Oxford English Dictionaries, which are authority for British and Commonwealth English. --Sumple (Talk) 02:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Good discussion (and good recent edits on your part). As I stated earlier, the plant is known in North American mainly through its Japanese version: umeboshi and related products. Eden Foods, perhaps the largest marketer of Prunus mume products in North America, uses "ume plum" (see link; see link; see link; see link; see link; see link; see link. In the general North American population, "li" is not generally just called "plum" as you say; the European variety of plum (which is commercially available for most of the year, either grown here or in Chile) is the one that's just called "plum." The "li," in fact, is virtually unknown and is only usually available in candied form in Chinese grocery stores; most North Americans have never heard of this species. The "mei" (Chinese variety) and "maesil" (Korean variety) in their Chinese and Korean forms are generally known only among those communities in North America (available only in Chinese and Korean markets) and among those who are friends with or married to Chinese or Koreans. Chinese and Korean plum wine is similarly generally unknown, but Japanese-produced plum wine is well known (although it is usually called "plum wine" rather than "umeshu"). So, like many other food products, at least in North America (and I assume also in the UK and Australia/Oceania) "ume" is the most commonly used term. Badagnani 07:10, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that's a revelation. We do find Chinese plums (i.e. li) here in Australia. What's more, plum wine here is usually a Korean thing - although it is also called "plum wine" and rarely as "maesilju".

Umeboshi and other Japanese ume products are virtually unknown - perhaps reflecting the fact that there isn't a significant Japanese population here compared to in North America, whereas there are large Korean and Chinese communities. I think you can find umeboshi in health food stores. But by far the most common ume-derived product is plum sauce - which of course is a Chinese thing - but it is just called plum sauce.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I feel though these things need reliable references rather than anecdotal evidence in the article. --Sumple (Talk) 11:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Is that so? That's fascinating. So there are some significant differences. I've never been to Australia though I play in an Australian bush band here in Ohio! When you speak of knowledge and availability of li, you're speaking of the general Australian population, not just those who are immersed in East Asian immigrant cultures there? So you say that the li is well known--are there li trees and fresh li fruit available? That's definitely not the case in North America. Probably a sentence or two about the differences in Australia could be added, as another significant English-speaking nation (one that is on the Pacific Rim and thus with a heavy East Asian influx). Badagnani 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Haha, wow, Australian culture spreads far and wide.

I'm not sure how well know is the li, but it is definitely available as a fresh fruit in mainstream markets. I'm not sure but it might be imported like Ya pear, which is also (perhaps much more) widely available.

(after a Google search) In fact, it says here that Japanese plums (Prunus salicina) and Asian plums (Prunus simonii) are grown in Western Australia, with Japanese plums dominating stonefruit orchards! --Sumple (Talk) 00:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

That's really incredible. I've never seen either mei nor li fresh anywhere. It's a shame because many of the Asian fruits will grow here; one of my favorites is the loquat and I've only seen one such tree, in Tallahassee, Florida. More traditional (read: less sweet) ume shu and maesil ju (with whole green fruits inside) are beginning to show up in non-Asian liquor stores, so there's one thing that's beginning to become better known here. Question: is Chinese "plum sauce" made from "mei"? It always just says "plum" in the ingredients, so I always assumed it was the Western large purple/reddish plum that was used. Here is my band's website, in case you want to have a laugh. Our accents need some work, I suppose. Badagnani 00:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Aisan plum sauce: I think it is, because it's called meizijiang ("mei fruit sauce/paste"). The European plum is usually called yangli ("foreign li"), or sometimes just li.

Nice site. And wow, you're very multi-talented! =D --Sumple (Talk) 00:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, OK, so meizijiang needs to be added to the "Ume" article, then, and probably merits its own article. By the way, are you of Chinese heritage? You're obviously into Asian culinary things, so might I ask if you could check out my additions to Buddha's delight and see if it fits with what you know about this dish? There are some good Chinese articles I've linked that have good source info, particularly on the Guangdong version of this dish, but I'm not sure I'm interpreting it correctly. Badagnani 00:59, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

One more question: do you know the fruit yangmei? I'm trying to get it in the Asian grocery store but although I've seen it before (in a bottle, whole fruits immersed in a reddish liquid) none of the stores seem to have it now. I'd like to try it. Just picked up some canned longans today. Badagnani 01:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Another question: is duck sauce different from plum sauce? In my experience, it is: duck sauce is apricot- or peach-based and light orange in color, whereas plum sauce is a deep purplish brown, and not as translucent. If different, we should eliminate the redirect from plum sauce to duck sauce and make a plum sauce article. Please check the addition to Ume where I added about plum sauce and make sure it's accurate. Badagnani 01:20, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your edits! I've also had a look at Buddha's delight but I don't know much about the dish, so can't really contribute ther. I am of Chinese heritage; I'm enthusiastic about food in general and Asian food in particular, as I see you are too!

Yangmei: in my experience yangmei is usually sold fresh (when in season), bottled/canned (the version you saw: it was probably sugar water, the red colour being from the strong natural colour of the fruit), or preserved or dried.

I doubt you'd be able to get fresh ones. If you can't get canned/botted ones, see if you can find foil bagged ones, which are close to being fresh - they should be sold alongside the non-dry variety of Huamei (preserved ume).

There might also be dried versions - sometimes they are sugar coated. These might be near the dry variety of Huamei.

I don't really know what "duck sauce" is; I don't think we use that name here. But I agree with you that the sauce served with roast duck is sometimes the light orange kind. More later. --Sumple (Talk) 02:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

rename?

I propose that this article be at Prunus Mume or Chinese Plum. The fact that "In North America, the fruit and tree are generally known by the Japanese name, ume." seems to ignore that the majority of English-speakers, who are outside North America, don't know it by the Japanese name. InfernoXV 09:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe they do. Badagnani 10:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Think we've been through this many times. I don't believe ume is generally the common English name - I think "Japanese plum" or "Chinese plum" or just "plum" is more common. But the problem is a lack of verifiable sources. We can't just debate on anecdotal evidence. I think the article should stay put until there are enough reliable sources to indicate something else (other than ume) is the common English name. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 10:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe there is a Wikipedia guideline ([4]) that says plant species should be found under their scientific name. In fact, the guideline says: "Plants that are sufficiently significant economically or culturally should be given a page describing their use, history and associations, with their common name as a page title. Example: coffee. Simultaneously, a separate page titled with the plant's scientific name should be created; this would be the place for botanical descriptions and relationships. Example: Coffea. Perhaps it could be moved to Prunus mume, as suggested above to break the deadlock over "Chinese" or "Japanese" ownership. (Actually, a lot of this is modern-day nationalism. Before modern nationalities started fighting over the spoils, East Asia was one cultural area.)

Bathrobe (talk) 06:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I concur with your opinion.--Appletrees (talk) 06:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The fruit is commonly known in English as ume--primarily in its use as umeboshi (pickled ume), as well as umeboshi vinegar and ume makizushi (a type of sushi). This is similar to the English use of the term enoki mushroom, tofu, nori, or other similar foods, which do exist in other East Asian countries, but which came into the cuisines of English-speaking nations via Japanese, and often specifically macrobiotic cuisine. "Chinese plum" is not used in English-speaking regions and "Japanese plum" is confusing and misleading because that can refer to Prunus salicina. In fact, the term "ume plum" is sometimes used in marketing in English-speaking regions, but "Japanese plum" is misleading because the ume is closer to an apricot than a plum--and the Asian plum is Prunus salicina. Badagnani (talk) 02:45, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I support Bathrobe's proposal. It is both NPOV and consistent. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:03, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia guideline I gave above leaves a lot of leeway for both practices (one article on the botanical species, one article on the fruit), and thus, of course, plenty of room for further disputes :)

Let me make another suggestion. Try a Google search for each English-speaking country and see what kind of results you get. For instance, this search: [5]

You'll notice that 'ume' is definitely used in Australia, as well as 'ume plum', 'umeboshi plum', and 'mume'. But there are only 320 hits for 'ume plum'. Try a similar search on, say, "Japanese plum" and "Chinese plum", as well as "Prunus mume". A look around will also reveal usages like "Japanese apricot" and "winter plum". :) See this article: [6], although it's already 9 years old and may not represent the state of affairs at the moment. (I say this because these things are fast-moving. To cite an example, when I went to Japan in 1975, I'd never heard of or tried Japanese nashi pears. So I naturally translated nashi just as 'pear'. Fast-forward 20 years, and I found that Australian TV fruit market reports were calling them 'nashi pears'. So things can change. It just needs a kind of fruit to catch on under a certain name and all the previous names that were used for it become sidelined. (A prime example is the speed with which "kiwifruit" ousted "Chinese gooseberry").

At any rate, a few country-specific Internet searches might give you a better idea of what the usage is -- nothing definitive, but at least a basis for discussion that is a bit better than "I say it's called this in English!", "Not in my country, mate!" exchanges.

Also try this page: [7]

Bathrobe (talk) 01:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've been looking around (Irish, UK, Indian, Philippine, New Zealand, Australian Google), and my second suggestion only reveals more confusion.

I do suspect that Badagnani is right. Perhaps 'ume' is the most widespread name for the fruit. But this tree is about more than just fruit. It's also familiar to people who like growing trees. What you call 'ume' in the supermarket might be called 'Japanese flowering apricot' in your plant nursery. And of course, 'plum sauce' and 'plum liqueur' are always there to remind us that the fruit is also known as 'plum'.

So perhaps we should revert to my original suggestion. Call the article Prunus mume. All the other names, including ume, mume, Japanese apricot, umeboshi plum, Japanese flowering apricot, winter plum (or is this 寒梅?) can redirect there. What do people think?

One other point: I think that we need to add a section on English names at the article - not Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or Vietnamese. Oriental language names could be put in a table at the top right-hand corner, under the photo.

Bathrobe (talk) 06:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's really a naming conflict issue, where we have no reliable sources as to the common name of the thing. Does the scientific name count as an "official" name for the purposes of WP:NCON? If so then the article should be there, with all other names redirected to it. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, there is a Wikipedia guideline for plant species ([8]) suggesting the use of the scientific name. In this sense, Prunus mume certainly does count as an official name for the tree. The main problem is that Prunus mume is also significant economically or culturally, which entitles it to a page describing its use, history and associations, with the common name as a page title. But since there are so many common names, spanning several cultures, finding an acceptable one is not easy. Badagnani feels that in the US, at least, 'ume' is the name we want if we're referring to the fruit and things like umeboshi or umeshu. But there are enough other names for the tree, the fruit, and products made from it, that it's hard to say definitively that ume stands head and shoulders above the rest.

At any rate, I still feel that:

(1) The article should be moved to Prunus mume

(2) It should give greater coverage to the variety of names that are used for the tree and the fruit in English. That includes mume, Japanese apricot, Chinese plum, Japanese plum, and even umeboshi plum. In that sense, 'ume' is definitely one of the names that should be listed, because it is at this stage largely accepted as an English-language name. Chinese, Korean or Vietnamese names, on the other hand, are not yet English-language names for the tree and don't need to be listed here.

(3) There should be a list of names for the tree in those countries where it is culturally significant -- Chinese, Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese. Chinese should come first in the list as the name in all these languages originally came from Chinese. However, this list of names shouldn't be given in the text itself; it should form a list at the side.

What I'm proposing is the scientific name as neutral ground, broader coverage of names in English to make it an English-language centred article, and good coverage of names in languages where it is culturally significant. Is this a valid compromise? Bathrobe (talk) 10:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

As an addition to what I said above, I think that the conflict over which country the tree and the fruit "belong" to is misplaced. The trend of the discussion appears to be one of displeasure that ume should be used as the English name of the fruit when it actually "belongs" to China. This leads to everyone piling in to list their language's name for the ume -- if we're going to have ume we should have méizi. If we're going to have meizi, why not maesil? If maesil, why not mai and mơ? So all these foreign names get listed in the article on the principle that none should be discriminated against.

A similar nationalistic sentiment underlies the claim that "Chinese plum" is more appropriate. What most protesters seem to agree on is that the Japanese aspect shouldn't have prominence.

This seems to me a completely mistaken approach. What we should be doing is presenting information that is interesting to the visitor and enriches his/her experience and knowledge. Rather than crying foul that the Japanese name is being treated as standard (in fact, compared to other Asian names, the Japanese name is standard for many people in English), the article should be leading to new discoveries. So when someone looks up ume, let him/her think "Wow, I didn't realise that the ume originally came from China!" "Wow, I didn't know that the ume in umeboshi is the same as the plums in Chinese plum sauce!" "Wow, I didn't realise the Japanese plum was actually a kind of apricot!" "Wow! I didn't realise that the fruit on the Japanese flowering apricot in my garden is the same ume you can buy in the market!" "Wow, I didn't realise that plum wine comes from a tree that's regarded in the Orient as a symbol of resilience and perseverance in the face of adversity!" Etc. Instead of competing to prove who the tree and the fruit belong to, we should be effortlessly directing people to a greater knowledge of the ume as a whole, and a greater knowledge of these cultures as a whole. The fact that people come to this article when they're looking up ume or "Japanese apricot" or whatever else shouldn't be an issue. If people come in through that channel, what's important is that they should come away with a deeper understanding of the tree, the fruit, and its cultural significance in general.

Bathrobe (talk) 12:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I endorse your proposal for treating the various names.

On the second point, personally, I still don't think ume is the standard English name - cultural differences, if you will. If I'm talking about the tree or the fruit, I'd just call it "plum". If there's confusion, I'd call it "Chinese plum", "Japanese plum" or "Asian plum", or even "an apricot that's kind of like a plum". If I need to mention foreign language names, I'd call it mei. The name ume would only ever crop up if I was talking to someone who knows Japanese well, or in the context of explaining umeboshi. However, I do accept that ume is probably a commonly used name in some communities, e.g. in North America, where there is a much larger concentration of Japanese people, language, and culture. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 21:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Chinese Wikipedia is, of course, not technically a "source", but if you look at [9] it says: 在西方，常把梅、李和杏而混淆，常以「plum」一词翻譯梅，但此字實為李，其正式名稱多稱作「Japanese apricot」或「ume」，ume是梅在日语中的发音，据傳这是因为梅是从日本介绍到西方的。

Bathrobe (talk) 01:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm a bit dubious about how it says it is "commonly" translated as "plum" but the "official" name is "Japanese apricot or ume". Especially the "official" bit. Sorry, but the Chinese wikipedia, when it comes to plants and animals, is too often a mangled translation of the English. That said, the comment about "plum" being a common but inaccurate translation accords with my experience. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I've made some changes to the page, mainly to add the large variety of English names that is found. I've merged this with the former Etymology section.

I'm sure that it needs some fine-tuning, but overall I think it's an improvement. It does leave up in the air, however, what we should use as the "main" name. It would be nice to decide on one or two widely accepted names for the intro, and put all the alternative names in the "Names" section. But as that's the main bone of contention, I suspect that there might be a bit more moving around before everyone's happy.

Bathrobe (talk) 02:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Ume → Prunus mume — per WP:NC(flora): "Scientific names are to be used as page titles in all cases except... " for three situations that don't apply in this case. Although the zeal to title Wikipedia articles by their scientific names can be excessive, this is a textbook case of when the scientific name should be used: a single species with multiple English names. In addition, it has cultural significance in a number of Oriental countries and is known under a different name in each. See above here and here for previous discussions. —— AjaxSmack 02:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Keep at Ume. English name of this fruit, as has been pointed out. It's equivalent to tofu, bonsai, or karate. Badagnani (talk) 02:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The usual common name outside of Asia is Japanese apricot. Inside Asia, it's only known as ume in Japanese contexts. As the national flower of Taiwan, it's not called ume. — AjaxSmack 08:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
• Move. "Ume" as an English name is a regionalism. Everyone calls it "plum", "Chinese plum", "Korean plum", "Japanese plum", or "Asian plum" where I come from. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - It's not a plum. Badagnani (talk) 02:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply - whether it is actually a plum in a technical sense is irrelevant to the question of the common name for the fruit. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - There is a Chinese plum, and it is called li. Badagnani (talk) 03:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Reply - Yes and that again is irrelevant to the question of what people are calling Prunus mume. Li is just called "plum" here. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Move per the above extensive discussion. I concur with Bathrobe's aforementioned rationale.--Appletrees (talk) 02:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
• Comment. While the points above are well taken, no one commonly calls it Prunus mume, and as it says on the WP:NC(flora) page, Plants that are sufficiently significant economically or culturally should be given a page describing their use, history and associations, with their common name as a page title. Speaking from the point of view of Japanese culture, not just common everyday modern culture, such as umeshu or even blossom viewing or the like, but also from the point of view of art history, literature, and poetry, I think it arguable that ume is just as significant culturally as sakura, which is listed as such and is not a redirect. LordAmeth (talk) 12:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • comment Maehwa, a flower of Prunus mume in Korean has taken as much significant part in Korea as in Vietnam and Japan. The flower is not as much important as the cherry flower in Japan as far as I know. (I also object the article of cherry blossom named "sakura".) You're totally speaking for Japanese point of view, and the subject not only covers the people but also other people and English speaking world. We have not gotten a consensus for using the current title because the nationalistic ownership, so the bionominal name has the most neutral position. --Appletrees (talk) 12:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment As per WP:NC(flora), Japanese Cherry itself is described in Prunus serrulata and its cultural significance in the Japanese culture is described in Sakura. Similarly, this article should be moved to its scientific name. An article that focus on the cultural significance of Ume in the Japanese culture may be created; then it would be named Ume. --Kusunose 16:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment I think one species having two articles in a similar manner is not an ideal solution and seems like a kind of tactic to keep the national name anyhow.--Appletrees (talk) 17:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
• Support as per WP:NC(flora). --Kusunose 16:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
• Split as Kusunose suggested into an article on the species, named Prunus mume according to the conventions that apply to species generally, and an article on ume in Japan. The former will meet the needs of readers who want to know about the species, and as Appletrees points out that extends significantly outside the Japan-related community. The latter can have the name Ume, which is specific to Japan, or some other appropriate name. I agree with LordAmeth that the ume is important enough in Japan to have an article on its significance there, and by using the Japanese word as the article title we would focus clearly on one country. If other cultures such as Taiwan and Korea likewise place significance on Prunus mume we can have a category with related articles, and links to each other can help to build a community. Fg2 (talk) 05:55, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - The culinary uses are very similar between Japan and Korea (and to some extent China), and the cultural aspects are similar between all three, so having a dedicated Japanese article separate from the article about the species is not advised. Badagnani (talk) 06:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Agree with that. My suggestion is move this to prunus mume, and leave the cultural/culinary bits in it until such time as the "most common English name" is established through the use of reliable sources, and not just anecdotal evidence. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:06, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Sources for the very widely used and established name "ume" in English, as used in English-speaking regions on product labels have been provided; please do not make statements contrary to the facts and discussion. Separate articles could possibly stand for Umeboshi and Umeboshi vinegar, as well as for Plum wine. Badagnani (talk) 09:10, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Product labels from one corner of the world does not stand for general usage across the English world. Furthermore, product labels indicate the trademarks under which the goods are supplied, and at the highest stand for the official names under which the particular products are known. A fortiori, the products mentioned are prunus mume derivatives, and not the fruit or plant itself. To draw an inference from product labels to the ingreident is a bit like arguing that hazelnuts are known in English as Nutella by reference to an Italian-produced label of the latter product. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:31, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - The argument is beginning to show a hint of logic. However, some of the products, such as these, are the fruit itself. Badagnani (talk) 09:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment - And here's a pile of URLs referring to the fruit as simply "plum", "Japanese plum", or "Chinese plum": [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19]. Rather a mixed bag, but I'm only trying to illustrate how the rest of the world doesn't use the Japanese name to refer to the fruit/flower/tree. I've taken care to ensure that these are all references to the prunus mume, and have not included any references where it is ambiguous whether, for example, it refers to mume or salicina. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Divide: This seems a prime example of exception 1: Agricultural and horticultural cases in which multiple different products stem from the same scientific name (eg. brussels sprouts, cabbage & broccoli). In such a case, a separate page with the botanical description of the entire species is preferred (eg. Brassica oleracea). Here the products would be ume, umeboshi, plum wine, plum blossom (chiefly on China) and so on, with a botanical and summary article under prunus mume. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
• Move to scientific name: I think a very good argument can (and has) been made for splitting the page (as per either exception 1 or 2 on the above naming convention, as in prunus serrulata / sakura) but the problem again becomes what to call the other page (and it seems a little silly to have two pages on the same thing). A common English name is hard to establish (it all depends on how you Google search ... and what's the old phrase about "figures don't lie, but liars figure"?). If we go with "ume", it would be culturally insensitive (and just plain inaccurate, really) to talk about "ume in Chinese/Korean/etc. culture), the same if we talked about the "mei flower in Japan". We could invent a "neutral name" like "Asian plum", but I can think of a half dozen reasons why we shouldn't. Instead, I think Pyrus pyrifolia (a similarly problematic item) shows a nice guide of how we can be accurate and still make everyone happy. Each country can have a section (rather than a whole new article) on the "Prunus mume in _____" where we can either continue to use the scientific name, or (my preference) incorporate the local name in each section (e.g. "The Prunus mume is known as ume in Japan. Ume are of significance in Japanese culture because ..."). Let's go with a solution that is not only accurate (we can all agree on the scientific name even if the English "common name" is in doubt) but also will not trigger yet another horrendous CJK War where much more energy is spent on naming the article than improving the article. CES (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Move highly improper

The move of the article after less than 1 day of discussion was highly improper. Move it back and adhere to WP policies, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 19:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

That is quick if we only limit the discussion for changing the title but considering the previous discussions for months can have a valid reason for the move. --Appletrees (talk) 19:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The move of the article after less than 1 day of discussion was highly improper. It should be moved back immediately and discussion progress for the proper number of days. WP is not a place where rules can be ignored. Badagnani (talk) 19:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

True, there have been months of previous discussion but a few more days with new participants can't hurt. — AjaxSmack 21:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The move of the article after less than 1 day of discussion was highly improper. Move it back and adhere to WP policies, thanks. Badagnani (talk) 02:42, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I undid the page move and reopened the discussion. --Kusunose 04:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)