Talk:Lizzie Borden

More Information

There is not nearly enough information here on the actual murders, the motive, her life before the murders, etc. This article assumes that you already know the basics of the murders rather than explaining the murders themselves or even why people believe that Lizzy Borden killed her parents. --Kleio08 23:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ya, this article makes no sense. It's like doing an article on Coke that consists soley of the drink's taste. Where's the rest of it?

Agree. At least a couple sentences about family background and Borden before the murders is needed. -- Infrogmation 01:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo

As in, can we get one of her here? Maxxo 01:20, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

As at this date there is no photo of her ? Pray, tell why not or I'm libel to start swinging something ! --Free4It 23:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

This is not a photo of Lizzie Borden. See http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Galleries/LizziePhotographs.htm, where it is given as a photo of a lookalike. (The same page has genuine photos of Lizzie.)

Kostaki mou 03:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

What are you referring to when you say "this is not a photo of Lizzie Borden"? The current photo on the page? Please ref the image you are referring to. — Frecklefoot | Talk 11:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The photo on the page is not of Lizzie Borden. Kostaki mou 23:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The Nursery Rhyme

In popular memory Lizzie Borden is widely recalled as being a teenager or even younger at the time of the murder, but, in fact, she was a grown woman in her late thirties.

How did this change in popular perception become established? Does anyone know of a song, play, movie, TV show, or other widely viewed work that might have given rise to this misconception?

I suspect it's because the chief method of transmission of her fame has been a nursery rhyme. -- Smerdis of Tlön 19:23, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The rhyme probably helped in the past- the mention of her parents especially contributes to the idea of her being younger; people just don't think of spinsters automatically in a playground context.CFLeon 22:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I've also heard the nursery rhyme with the words "mother" and "father" switched -- indeed, the song at the end of this article uses that order. Was forensics advanced enough at the time for people to determine who was actually murdered first? Or, do we just not know? If not, perhaps a little note should be added and the words in the nursery rhyme switched in order to be aligned with the song.

It was established that Mrs Borden was killed first, then Mr. Borden, but that may have been more a reflection of the time element (Mr B getting home at a particular time, witnesses being around, etc.) rather than actual scientific analysis. They were able to piece together the skulls and establish the number of separate blows (the skulls were exhibits at Lizzie's trial) and blood tests were done on the axe handle and dress. CFLeon 22:00, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I would seriously question this article's assertion that the Borden case is remembered chiefly because of the nursery rhyme. There's a whole cottage industry devoted to studying the case and speculating about what happened, and this has been going on practically since the day Lizzie was acquitted. I think the case would be famous with or without the rhyme. In fact, if anything I would say that books and programmes about the case are responsible for keeping the rhyme in modern memory (I sure never heard it on the playground). Perodicticus 16:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Does the author have an obsession for the rhyme? It's mentioned in 3 separate places. Since it's a blaitant declaration of Lizzy's guilt, without excuse, it's pretty much the same thing as O. J. Simpson's entry saying "but every one Knows he did it" every paragraph. This is hardly NPOV. I never heard it as a kid, just from reading books saying it's famous. It seems to me like it's become a situation like "Brontosaurus", which would hardly survive if people didn't keep on mentioning it's obsolete. CFLeon 00:53, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I've decided to be bold and rewrite the lead to assign less importance to the rhyme. I moved discussion of the rhyme to a new section on public reaction to the trial (which could be a lot more detailed). Perodicticus 14:14, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Spinster?

Is a loaded word like "spinster" the best we can do? According to Wikipedia's own definition, the word is value-laden pejorative - at least to some extent.

What's wrong with "unmarried?"

Seriously ... spinster?

172.130.14.32 18:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

That was the term used at the time, so that's what they're called in contemporary sources. The 19th Century hadn't invented the concept of 'Politically Correctiveness' yet. CFLeon 23:11, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Colbert vandalism

More Stephen Colbert inspired vandalism likely; see Talk:Latchkey kid. NawlinWiki 04:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Page Semi-Protection UPDATE

I got denied protection as "nothing has happened recently". USADude 22:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC) Update: USADude 12:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Latest Update

I added info about the book Lizzie written by Evan Hunter where he gives his own unique theory on who killed the Bordens. He also hosts (as Ed McBain) a video where the various historians give their own reasons who they suspect who the killer(s) were.I happened to see the video on TV (Mystery channel) recently and rather enjoyed it. Have not read Hunter's book Lizzie. L.J. Brooks 16:30 04 Sep 2006 (UTC)

What's the point...

...of wikilinking the standalone publication years in ISBN book references? Or the standalone years under "Artistic depictions"? Nobody's going to be clicking on 1991 to see if anything else happened that year. It's just visual clutter. It wouldn't hurt any of us to (re)read Edward Tufte, that sworn enemy of "useless, non-informative, or information-obscuring elements of information displays". --CliffC 16:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a tag to the section "Alleged lesbian affair with actress Nance O'Neil". Borden's sexuality gets more wiki-ink than the murders, and all I see is conjecture. The corresponding section in the Nance O'Neil article says "O'Neil's actual sexuality remains unclear." Google tells me that Borden is the only person in Wikipedia to have had an "alleged lesbian affair"; this seems like a poor choice of words without a WP:RS. --CliffC 06:08, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Upon further reflection, I simply removed the L-word. This article needs more information about the murders and less about the media spin-offs. --CliffC 16:52, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Tualha

I have to complain about Tualha's recent edits to the Lizzie Borden page. The photos are incorrect, and not Emma or Lizzie. I have changed the page back to its correct factual and photographic settings. I am a Lizzie Borden scholar, editor of The Hatchet: Journal of LIzzie Borden Studies, moderator of The Lizzie Borden Society Forum, webmaster of LizzieAndrewBorden.com, and blogger of MondoLizzie.com. I know of which I speak. Please do not continue to post false facts and images on this page. Dr. Stefani Koorey

Well, Dr. Koorey. I will assume, for purposes of these comments, that you are in fact the same Dr. Stefani Koorey who is easily found on the web, though for all we know you could just as easily be some 14-year-old imposter; see Essjay controversy for an example of what I mean. Given that you have earned a doctorate, I'm sure I don't need to explain to you the importance of supporting your claims, in any sort of serious work, with specific, easily-verified references. I rather doubt that any of your professors would have let you get away with this sort of hand-waving.

I will grant you that Lizzie Borden, as it stands now, sets a poor example. Red Barn Murder is a much better example of the kind of quality we strive for. Observe the frequent use of footnotes - 33 in total - and how each one references a specific page in a specific work, and thus can be verified. In other words, they're the same kind of citations you have to use in an academic paper. Citing "LizzieAndrewBorden.com", and the entirety of Rebello without page numbers or specific citations, doesn't cut it here any more than it would in academe.

Contrary to some opinions, experts are very welcome here. But we do insist that, like everyone else, they support the claims they make in articles instead of simply waving their credentials and saying "shut up, I'm an expert". It's considered polite to learn a little about how we do things here before making wholesale changes and complaining when people revert them, too. I've placed some links to further reading on your talk page; please do take a look, and feel free to ask me any questions. Cheers, Tualha (Talk) 02:09, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I dont understand why you keep reverting some of Stefani Kooreys edits (such as the pictures) and claiming he lacks refrences, when you dont seem to be providing any of your own. 210.49.174.197 07:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC) Adrian_au

I simply reverted wholesale edits that seemed possibly biased. If version A has two citations and has been developed by many people over the course of years, and version B has no citations and is mostly the product of one editor, absent other data I tend to assume that the one editor has an axe to grind and is putting up her own interpretation. Please note that this is not "my" version; the only edits I've ever made to this article were these reverts.

I don't know enough about Lizzie Borden to improve the article myself, and I'm not interested enough to take the time, so I won't spend any more time on this battle. Other editors who do know something about her can decide how the article should be. It isn't the first time, anyway; Skoorey edited back in April, and someone called "DrStef" did a lot of edits two years ago. Skoorey says she'll provide footnotes next time. The result will likely be better than the current version with two footnotes, or her earlier edits with none. The community can take it from there. Tualha (Talk) 12:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

the way it is done around here

How can you say what you do and still put up factually INACCURATE information on Lizzie Borden. You continue to revert to your version with photos that are not Lizzie, are not Emma, and with false information on the murders, the woman's life, and her social world. You are saying to me that you have SOURCES for these false statements and these photos? You have proof that what you put up is more accurate than what I have crafted?

I appreciate the lesson in references, but your continued reversion from my edit back to yours is not acceptable when your edit is incorrect.

Wikipedia is fast losing its reputation because of bouncers like you who guard the gates of an historical person such as Lizzie Borden. You know not of which you write, even though you talk a very big game about sources.

I suggest you rethink your position and check your own sources to confirm what I have been saying.

My next edit will conform to your requirements, with footnotes. If you dare to change it back to your mistake-ridden version, I will be forced to abandon all hope that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and forced to publicize it as a place for amateur historians to rule the pages of a once well-conceived web resource.

Too much pop culture trivia

I accept that she's a pop culture icon but that doesnt' mean we need to list every unsourced passing reference. Exhibit A:

• Garfield often makes references that Aunt Gussie used to double-date with her.

So what if the cat does? and can you prove it? I suggest interested editors cut all the loosely-associated trivia from those lists and post it here to the Talk page in case there's a nugget of notable use that someone can save. Canuckle 15:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

"new england spinster"

That seems like an odd way to describe someone in their lead. Do we identify Isaac Newton as an "English physicist and bachelor?" --Aquillion 08:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Lesbian Section

The lesbian section doesn't supply references. The single reference in the paragraph (straight dope) is a reference source for the sexuality of Nance O'Neil. The reference also states that Lizzie Borden being a lesbian is a matter of pure conjecture.

The reference states that 'The belief that Lizzie Borden was a lesbian basically comes down to the assumption that any woman not married by thirty must be gay.' The article was quite interesting, especially after I read the references, but was misleading on the lesbian issue (with respect to the quoted source.)

Rhodescus 01:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Full Name

"Lizzie" is short for "Elizabeth". Is her full, proper name "Elizabeth Andrew Borden"? Well, according to this website, it is. --MosheA 21:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I added it, but I'm not sure how reliable a site is that specializes in Tarot cards and runes. — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a common piece of misinformation. She was christened "Lizzie Andrew Borden" (as she herself says in her inquest testimony). Kostaki mou 02:56, 28 September 2007 (UTC) (As this "correction" has been made again (and corrected again), I think some emphasis is called for. Kostaki mou (talk) 03:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for reverting my change. My bad. :-S — Frecklefσσt | Talk 15:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

You're very welcome. Understandable mistake. (The Chad Mitchell Trio made it too.) Kostaki mou 21:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Citations

I've started working through the article and looking at some of the references that are in it. I hope I don't step on anyone's toes as I'm working on it. I've just got some problems with the text from where most of the citations come - Straight Dope Staff Report. Part of my problem is that at the bottom of the reference page, it says "Staff Reports are researched and written by members of the Straight Dope Science Advisory Board, Cecil's online auxiliary. Although the SDSAB does its best, these articles are edited by Ed Zotti, not Cecil, so accuracywise you'd better keep your fingers crossed." Then in the first few paragraphs, there is a major error in fact. It says that John Morse was Abby's brother, when all the actual documents from the time - inquest and trial transcripts - are clear that he was the first Mrs. Borden's brother. The other problem is that the page reads more like an essay and isn't hard on sources. In any event, I'm working on it and hope what I do meets with everyone's approval. Wildhartlivie 02:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

In Popular Culture > Music

The band The Dresden Dolls has a song from their demo album A is for Accident about Lizzie entitled Thirty Whacks. I know a long, long list of references in music is not wanted in this article, however this song seems to be more relevant because, unlike other songs on the list, it does not merely reference Lizzie, but it supposed to be told from her POV.

Add or no?

Matt (talk) 17:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Not unless a source is available to cite that clearly verifies that the song is about Borden, not just confirms the rumor. Reading the lyrics doesn't it make it that clear. Wildhartlivie (talk) 17:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)