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::::::::::::::I assume you're trying to accuse me of that, and I gotta say, I don't appreciate your tone. I just want the external links section to follow Wiki policy as best as we can, that's all. &mdash; [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 03:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
::::::::::::::I assume you're trying to accuse me of that, and I gotta say, I don't appreciate your tone. I just want the external links section to follow Wiki policy as best as we can, that's all. &mdash; [[User:HelloAnnyong|'''<span style="color: #aaa">Hello</span><span style="color: #666">Annyong</span>''']] <sup>[[User_talk:HelloAnnyong|(say whaaat?!)]]</sup> 03:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Not an accusation, just pointing out the fact that this has moved beyond the policy cited - which clearly allows the blog links being deleted - and is now about personal opinion, someone's personal POV, not any Wikipedia policy. Claiming this is being done in the name of that policy is not accurate. It's best to be clear and upfront about this. Call it a Rectification of Names, or simple intellectual honesty. [[User:Dprkstudies|Dprkstudies]] ([[User talk:Dprkstudies|talk]]) 09:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


==Building consensus==
==Building consensus==

Revision as of 09:32, 14 April 2008

Human Rights Section

The Human Rights section contains typos, conflicting arguments, and does not site any of it's sources or provide adequate evidence for either of those arguments.

Johnnymonicker (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. And I was wondering, if you should mention a section on "Human rights" here, shouldn't one be included in the article on the United States, especially with regards to Guantanamo Bay or Abu Ghraib? 202.59.73.50 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 10:33, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whitewashers

You may want to review this article since some members of the KFA has been in here, as they self say, improving and removing lies.[1] Just see the democracy-debate above. Time to restore relevant information again? --Boongoman (talk) 06:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the information should be put back. The KFA's position is that they accept the official word of the government of North Korea, and as a result they remove what they consider to be "lies", even when there is evidence to support the information given. They even go so far as to say that refugees and defectors are paid or coerced into giving accounts against the government and therefore can't be used as sources of information. If the KFA disagree with something in the article and see it as lies, then they should provide evidence to the contrary from unbiased sources. Deleting information supported by evidence because they don't want people to see it is wrong, and any KFA edits without discussion or sources should be treated as vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.188.235.58 (talk) 12:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds bad

Can't Wikipedia allow edits for simple things like grammar and usage? For example, this sounds terrible: "This, compounded with only 18 percent arable land..." There's a remote antecedent (pronoun reference problem) and a nonstandard preposition. It would sound better to write "The famine, compounded by..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.44.82.69 (talk) 10:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Often portrayed in the media"

Is total weasle wording - it's almost as bad as tagging "so-called" onto something. North Korea is so widely considered to be a dictatorship there's no need to mention the media at all. --129.67.116.164 (talk) 23:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reading the talk page it seems there has been some comical hair-splitting by people uninterested in reality. To ammend this I've found a number of citations of "non-western" or "2nd/3rd world" sources refering to North Korea as a dictatorship. I've got Nigeriaworld[2], The Times of India ("North Korea, officially known as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, is one of the world's most oppressive, closed, and vicious dictatorships") [3]), and The Journal of Turkish Weekly quoting some Namibian dude saying that NK is a "dictatorship" [4].

All from a five minute search of google news. Except none of these are needed now, as I think it's extremely easly to establish that public opinion in both developed and developing world (with the exception of China) is pretty united. --62.69.37.58 (talk) 23:57, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Industrialization Rank

Does this make sense? It was also considered the 2nd-least industrialized nation in Asia, after Japan. Japan is the least industrialized nation in asia? What about Bangladesh? This must be second most. I'm going to modify this. Dan (talk) 07:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removing POV-check

Hi everyone. I'm quite interested in North Korea in general (been there recently), and I'd like to contribute to the article. Maybe we could work together and first try to remove POV to get rid of the POV-check tag. I'll list what I think is POV-oriented and my proposals to fix it (forgive my english, not being a native speaker), please do the same if you can.

  • Birth of North Korea : "This arrangement was the creation of American leaders of the time and the dual occupation was done without consulting the Korean people." I suggest removing the sentence, this "arrangement" was between US and Soviet leaders, most probably without asking the Koreans
  • Economic evolution : "In the aftermath of the Korean War and throughout the 1960s the country's state-controlled economy slowed down at a significant rate. It may also have once been considered the 2nd-most industrialized nation in Asia, after Japan." Seems contradictory. From my knowledge, the NK economy in the 60s was not declining (I'll look into reliable sources). Could someone with a better english than myself propose a rephrase of this sentence?
  • Economic evolution : "In the 1970s the expansion of North Korea's economy, with the accompanying rise in living standards, came to an end and a few decades later went into reverse" again quite contradictory with previous sentence.
  • Economic evolution : "Collapse of large state-owned enterprises (which formally still exist but have neither raw materials nor customers) released a huge amount of workers who engage in cross-border trade with China." needs source of has to be removed
  • Human rights : "The system changed slightly at the end of 1990s when population growth became very low. In many cases where capital punishment was de facto replaced by less severe punishments. Bribery became prevalent throughout the country. For example, just listening to South Korean radio could result in capital punishment. However, many North Koreans wear clothes of South Korean origin, listen to Southern music, watch South Korean videotapes and even receive Southern broadcasts although they are still prohibited — in most cases punishment is nothing more than a pecuniary fine, and many such problems are normally solved "unofficially", through bribery." while I enjoy reading the source for this (Daily NK) it's a bit biased and this whole sentence would probably benefit from being a bit less affirmative.
  • Foreign relations : "Despite the foreign troops, Kim Jong-il has privately stated his acceptance of U.S. troops on the peninsula, even after a possible reunification. It is claimed by US sources that if North Korea and the United States normalize relations, both Koreas would wish to maintain the presence of US troops out of fear of China and Japan but North Korea strongly denies that and demands the removal of American troops (see North Korea-United States relations)." Not POV but somehow redundant
  • Military : "Annual military spending is not available, compared with South Korea's $24 Billion (2.7% of GDP)" again not POV but weird
  • Economy "In the aftermath of the Korean War and throughout the 1960s and '70s, the country's state-controlled economy grew at a significant rate and, until the late 1970s, was considered to be stronger than that of the South" while probably true and again completely contradictory with previous statements, needs sourcing or has to go

That's it I think, can you help? Do you see other required changes? Mthibault (talk) 16:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anybody here? :) Mthibault (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
From your comments, I believe your English is excellent, and the points you raise should not be controversial. Please be bold in improving the article! More specifically, I agree that North Korea's economy was not declining in the 1960's, so that claim should be removed or corrected to refer to a later decade, with an appropriate source. Some of the other sections you mentioned are indeed speculative or based on limited information. That's sometimes unavoidable in an article about North Korea, but we need proper attribution. "It is claimed by US sources" is too vague. Similarly, the text about capital punishment can hardly be based on large-scale studies. If the information comes from anecdotal evidence, that should be clearly stated. As for military spending, we used to give an estimate that seems to have been removed. Perhaps you can find a good source and restore it. --Reuben (talk) 23:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Changing the 60s to the 80s (perhaps mid-80s) in regard to the slowing economy would make it accurate in that regard. As far as punishments for listening to ROK broadcasts, etc., Daily NK has a POV but is generally considered accurate, vice Good Friends, which grossly exaggerates. You can say all defectors are biased, but they are the source or realistic information, as opposed to what Ted Turner said after his 2005 visit. The statement about the economy of the 60s and 70s is accurate, and again the change recommended above would make things flow better. I may have time soon to look over this. As far as econ refs, either Cumings (who I hate to use), or Noland should be good. Dprkstudies (talk) 01:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

North Korea as a Single party state.

In North Korea it is illegal for other political parties to meet and take part in elections. Why is it when ever the phrase Single Party State is added to the article it is deleted? North Korea does only haee one legal political party and that is the Worker's Party of Korea. It even says in the article "Politics of North Korea" that the DPRK functions as a single party state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiDespot666 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a little more complicated than that. The political system is formally open to several parties, and a few others do exist, but they must stand for elections as part of a united front that's controlled by the Workers' Party. So North Korea is a single-party state in the sense that only one party is permitted to hold effective power, but a multi-party system in the sense that there are other parties. See Chondoist Chongu Party for example. --Reuben (talk) 23:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

North Korea focused Weblogs under External Links.

This needs to be discussed by the larger audience of editors and North Korea watchers who participate in Wikipedia. First there was some back-and-forth with arbitrarily deletions of my blog (which had been there for a couple of years prior) under the “External Links” and “Weblogs” header, then the deletion of the entire sub-category of “Weblogs.” I’ve restored these links myself a few times, but several others have also recognized the anarchic nature of the deletions and restored them. Mthibault is responsible for most of the deletions and has apparently taken it upon himself to judge that these blogs are either spam or promoting something other than analysis of North Korean issues. Note that these are *not* links or references to blogs being placed in the main article, but clearly under “Weblogs” in “External Links.” The blogs listed are in fact very serious, for the most part written by specialists, and well read among Korea watchers, which makes them particularly pertinent to this page. Let’s hear your thoughts, please. Dprkstudies (talk) 00:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the whole section of "weblogs" once and your blog another time following Wikipedia:EL. I propose we take it to mediation :) Mthibault (talk) 08:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I opened a case at requests for third opinion : Wikipedia:Third_opinion#Active_disagreements Mthibault (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have been requested to provide an admin opinion on this matter. This is thus only one admins thoughts, to be taken on that basis. I concur that outside comment is likely necessary for the resolution of the inclusion of weblogs in this article. Opinion on North Korea is often very heavily politicised, and weblogs are frequently the product of unreviewed opinion and perhaps subjectively referral to facts. To have such a potentially biased source provided within an article - not withstanding how it is categorised there - requires continuing consensus. If the WP:3O is not to all parties satisfaction I would then suggest Wikipedia:Requests for comment. During these processes, and where there is no agreed consensus, I strongly suggest that the weblog is not included in article space. I hope that this helps move the discussion onward. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion

Responding to the Third opinion request - this dispute seems to involve more than two editors, so I'm not sure it's a good case for 3rdOp. Although only two editors had commented here (at the point the request was made, prior to LessHeard vanU's helpful comments), further editors had commented on Dprkstudies' talk page, and another editor has become involved in reinstating the blog links. I agree with the suggestion that a Request for comment would be more suitable, and also that the weblogs section is removed until the dispute reaches consensus. I have also asked Dprkstudies to consider removing the wikipedia-related post on his blog, per WP policy on recruiting allies in content disputes. Eve Hall (talk) 11:21, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As explained above, the weblogs section has been moved here from the article page until discussion reaches consensus:

Hello Eve; Per your request and the cited policy, I have edited my blog post/title to remove advocacy but have left it up as there are incoming links and comments, including a relevant comment from Mthibault that I have quoted from below. Dprkstudies (talk) 15:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be some confusion as to what the External Links Policy (Wikipedia:EL) actually states. Please see item four (4) of the External Links policy under both, “What should be linked,” and “Links to be considered;”

  • 4. Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews.
  • 4. Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.

Concerning blogs, note they are listed in item 11 under, “Links normally to be avoided,”

  • 11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.

Mthibault has stated (in a comment on my blog) that, “links to blogs (of any kind) should be avoided,” which I believe misinterprets both the letter and spirit of the policy, and is more of an opinion. It should be noted that this did not start as the entire section (which had been there for a couple of years prior with no issue, including my own blog) being deleted, but one blog being arbitrarily singled out and deleted, for which an explanation was asked for a few times but never provided. I was under the impression that justifying such deletions, i.e. answering direction questions concerning them, was the norm. I don’t think anyone is arguing that the blogs listed are not entirely relevant to the topic of North Korea (under what should be linked). Even if one considers the blogs not to be “reliable sources,” they are definitely from “knowledgeable sources,” at least for this topic (under links to be considered). Also, there is no prohibition on linking to blogs in the External Links policy, unless you ignore the word “normally” in the heading for that section of the policy. The key here concerns, “those written by… recognized authorit[ies].” One could argue that the general public doesn’t know who, for example, Joshua Stanton or Richardson are, but most of the public won’t know where Pyongyang or Wonson are either. However these blogs are recognized authorities on North Korea within the Korea-blogosphere. The question to ask is this; what would be beneficial to the reader. Since the main article is not meant to cover closely current events (e.g. related to diplomacy, security, economics, human rights, etc.), linking to blogs that do should be beneficial to the reader looking for just such external links. Dprkstudies (talk) 14:05, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Fourth opinion: First off, all the links added in this diff don't belong on the page at all. I'd also remind User:Dprkstudies that it seems a little COI for you to push for the blogs to be included, given that your blog is one of the ones listed there. In terms of the argument raised above about reliable sources, my response would be: what makes Joshua Stanton or Richardson notable within the "Korea-blogosphere"? Are they scholars who have published articles in notable magazines or books? If they're just some guys sitting in their apartment who are recycling links, then no, they shouldn't be included. On a side note, the entire external links section here needs a lot of work. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:13, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please elaborate; why don’t those clearly North Korea focused blogs belong? Under the External Links policy there is nothing to prevent the links being added, and the implication of the items I note above would in fact point towards inclusion rather than exclusion. If you are not familiar with the Korea-blogosphere, perhaps those who are should comment. As to COI, I did not originally add my blog under the “Weblogs” header, but I did add it back after I noticed it and only it had been removed after begin there for about two years. Neither Joshua Stanton or myself – or many of the others – are just some guys sitting around recycling links. The About pages of either of our blogs speak to our credentials if you care to examine them, though I consider substance to be more important than credentials. I’ll steer back towards the overarching question; what would be beneficial to the reader. Dprkstudies (talk) 16:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


But there is Wiki policy against those links being added, and it's at WP:LINKSTOAVOID: "Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority." By recognized authority here, it means someone notable, as I said before - a scholar, an informed political figure, someone like that. There are a number of reasons why blog/personal web pages aren't allowed, but one of the big ones is that it's a potentially unreliable source. One of the links in question is http://www.xanga.com/linkorea, a Xanga page. Are you kidding? Why are we linking to their blog, where http://www.linkglobal.org/ is run by the same group and is an actual website? The Korea-blogosphere is irrelevant here; recognized authorities should be recognized outside of their own element. And in any case, Wiki policy trumps all. The burden is on you to to prove that the people are recognized authorities. As to your last question: what would be most beneficial to the reader would be content within the Wiki article, backed by verifiable secondary sources. Not links. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First the policy in NOT against adding such links, unless you omit key words. If you think that policy should be changed, that's a different matter. Second, please provide an official definition of “recognized authority,” if there is one. Have you bothered to look at credentials? Also, as shown above, item 11 of “Links normally to be avoided” is in this case in conflict with items four (4) noted above. Wikipedia articles have many links to obviously relevant blogs (that apparently have not been put to the standards you read into the policy) and this is just such a case. Again, comments from someone actually familiar with the Korea-blogosphere would be particularly helpful. The opinion that the opinions from that group of Korea watchers is irrelevant is not particularly helpful. And I’ll restate that content is more important than credentials to avoid the fallacy of appeal to authority, and again point to the question of what make a more useful article, or an external link in this case. These links were in the external links section for an extended period of time; there should be a burden of proof for removing them, not leaving what for about two years no one apparently thought was inappropriate or not useful to the overall article. Dprkstudies (talk) 16:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, let's take a look. http://nkay.blogsome.com/ is one of the links. According to their about page, the guy is "just a college student with absolutely no ties in the Korean pennisula" who "decided to start a blog on North Korean Human Rights." That doesn't strike me as someone who's a recognized authority on the subject. http://nkmonitor.wordpress.com/ doesn't even have an about section; it's just a site that posts articles from other sites like Hankyoreh and Daily NK. Again, not a notable blog. Admittedly, http://freekorea.us/ and your blog are marginally notable. According to NK Econ Watch's talk page, the blogger works for Enterprise Africa, but provides no information on why he or his blog is notable. It's another site that largely collects posts from Daily NK and the like.
There's no grandfather clause present on Wikipedia. Just because something was there before doesn't mean that it should stay unless good reason is given otherwise. This is what the page looked like two years ago today. I don't see DPRK Studies or freekorea.us on there. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 17:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You’ve quoted me slightly out of context a couple of times. First, re-read what I wrote above; “Neither Joshua Stanton or myself – or many of the others…” Second, I have repeatedly put “about” in front of “two years” (also, the two-year-old page contains a link to The Korea Liberator, which was a blog co-authored by Joshua and myself, among others. We later went back to our own blogs, OFK and DPRKS. Our individual blogs may have even been up before two years ago and been replaced by the group blog, I'm not certain.) The point here is that modifying words are important, not unlike “normally” in item 11 of the policy on blogs in external lings – when ignored they change the meaning of what was written.
I will indulge only a bit in the call to engage in the logical fallacy of appeal to authority, over content, since it's being brought up again;
You may also refer to comments on the post at my blog on this topic, which contain more on "authority." Dprkstudies (talk) 17:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi again everyone. I think there is a bing misunderstanding. External links are not sources : they are links to the "official" websites related to the article and to very selected related websites. This does not mean however that a claim in the article cannot be sourced using Dprkstudies blog. Again I'm not challenging Dprkstudies credibility, nor am I saying it is a reliable source. It just doesn't belong to the EL section (as most of the current links) unless proven otherwise.
Please see WP:EL : "Long lists of links are not appropriate: Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links. If you find a long list of links in an article, you can tag the "External links" section with the External links template. Where editors have not reached consensus on an appropriate list of links, a link to a well chosen web directory category could be used until such consensus can be reached. The Open Directory Project is often a neutral candidate, and may be added using the dmoz template."
Per this policy, I'll save the current EL under this post and limit the list to sites with complete consensus including a link to the Open Directory Project.
Can we all work together to review what links should be restored (please see other articles about countries and you'll see what is acceptable) ? Mthibault (talk) 19:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe this is still under discussion, so a decision seems premature, especially since more than two editors are involved. Also, WP:EL does not limit External Links to "official" websites at all - that is not stated or implied in that policy. Since there are a very small number of blogs devoted to the study of North Korea, the description of other acceptable links as a "very selected related websites" seems to be a perfect fit, which argues for inclusion of these few DPRK blogs. Dprkstudies (talk) 19:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On a side note, I just noticed that there are major copyright problems with some of the videos Mthibault (talk) 19:29, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do agree that no decision can be made yet. Can you list what you think are appropriate EL? If you beleive any of the links I left are not consensual, please remove them. Mthibault (talk) 19:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think all those external links should be restored ASAP, and if you want to remove any there should be consensus for removal, not the other way around. Whittling down such appropriate and useful information is counterproductive. As someone who has used Wikipedia to find references from time to time, including in external links sections, these mass deletions are bizarre. Dprkstudies (talk) 00:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, I think there is consensus here. Mthibault, Lessheard and I are in agreement that the links should be removed. You're the only person who wants them included. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 00:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess so, if you discount the other admin that reinstated the blog links before, as well as the other users that did (see page history). Concerning the blog links, anyone can read that such links are not prohibited by the EL policy, and (though I consider content more valid) some level of authority has been established, yet the links are not restored. It's very clear that some don't want to include blog links regardless of the policy actually says and allows, which gets down to someone's personal preferences, not the policy. We should just admit that and be very clear about it. Dprkstudies (talk) 02:29, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you're trying to accuse me of that, and I gotta say, I don't appreciate your tone. I just want the external links section to follow Wiki policy as best as we can, that's all. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 03:08, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not an accusation, just pointing out the fact that this has moved beyond the policy cited - which clearly allows the blog links being deleted - and is now about personal opinion, someone's personal POV, not any Wikipedia policy. Claiming this is being done in the name of that policy is not accurate. It's best to be clear and upfront about this. Call it a Rectification of Names, or simple intellectual honesty. Dprkstudies (talk) 09:32, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Building consensus

Hi everyone, I suggest we move on to build consensus on what external links should be in the article. May I suggest everyone looks around for articles that were given FA status in the same category? Again, if any link I left is not consensual, please remove it. I'll post the list I propose a bit later in the day. Mthibault (talk) 06:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Saved EL

Government-sponsored sources

News sources

  • KCNA - Korean Central News Agency, the official news agency of the DPRK
  • BBC News - "Country Profile: North Korea"
  • Pyongyang Watch, an archive of Asia Times articles
  • Another Korea - Background stories on North Korea
  • Daily NK - North Korea focused daily online newspaper

Documentaries

Nuclear Program and Military

Photo logs

Reunification

Miscellaneous

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