User talk:Elonka/Hungarian-Slovakian experiment: Difference between revisions

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Ground rules

This page is an experiment, as part of my (Elonka's) involvement with the ArbCom-designated Working group on cultural and edit wars. As I write this, there seems to be a dispute involving Hungarian and Slovakian articles. The dispute is de-centralized, and is taking place in edit summaries, userpages, talkpages, and administrator noticeboards. The dispute seems to involve multiple editors, and some anonymous accounts. Since it is extremely difficult to follow everything that's going on on every page, I have created this central page, and recommend adding a pointer to this page from all the locations of disputes.

I am an uninvolved administrator in this discussion, I have no preference for either side. However, I do insist that:

Participants remain civil
Edit wars cease
Anyplace that an article is reverted, that an explanation either be posted on that article's talkpage, or a pointer be placed on that article's talkpage, which links interested editors to here.

It is my hope that with a centralized point of discussion, that we'll be able to reduce the confusion, and those editors who are genuinely interested in having civil discussions towards determining consensus, will be able to do so.

Please feel free to start any threads here that you want, and invite anyone that you wish.

--El on ka 06:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator boards and other threads

Bratislava topics

The Central Europe history is very complicated. Bratislava was parts of Hungary 1000 years, but now it is Slovakia capital.(treaty of trianon) Slovakia's own history is very little.Slovaks wrote Bratislava's history on the wikipedia (Bratislava/history chapter, History of Bratislava, Bratislava Castle) and these articles are very one-sided. Because these topics the Slovak nationalist's guarded area, putting NPOV-templates out to them would cause a serious scandal. A good solution would be later if these articles would receive totally protected status, and neutral administrators (not Slavs) could rewrite this themes.Nmate (talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 09:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe all this upheaval at wiki is not about Central Europe's complicated history, but rather about a user not familiar with how Wikipedia works. Despite all the warnings on his/her user talk page, User:Nmate keeps making childish jokes about living persons, saying nasty things about non-Hungarian nations, and attacking other editors. Here are some examples:

He/she abused Wikipedia's article to claim that Slovakia's prime minister's "true confession" and "self-criticism looking back on the Fico cabinet's activities" is a 17th-century outlaw.[1] Wikipedia is not a place for political commentaries. Please also note that he/she called an IP a "clone" of an established user and a previous unproblematic version of an article "serious vandalism" in his/her edit summary.
He/she makes inappropriate jokes about other editors, calling another user "he Czech lion which defending his Slovak siblings"[2], suggesting that two editors are followers of a neo-Nazi leader Marian Kotleba[3] (this was completely uncalled for and especially disturbing for me as my grand father was in a concentration camp), and calling other people's work "dubious Pan-Slavic propaganda".[4]
He/she said: "There is a Hungarian joke that whole Slovakia's only history is possible to send in a short mobile phone's text messsage."[5] Maybe it was supposed to be funny, but it has offended many people here.
After being warned agianst hate speech, he/she continued in the same tone: "the important historical events should be there and so Slovak historical event is not exist before the 20th century".[6]

Many people have tried to talk to him/her, but it did not work. All the deleted warnings (up to NPA4 if I remember well) may be found in the history of his/her user talk page. I feel a stronger action is needed to show him/her that Wikipedia has some rules that make our work more efficient and pleasant. Tankred (talk) 16:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As for the first point, he cited a source for the most part. If you don't agree with it, you can modify it. You just removed it, although Prime Minister Fico really talked about Jánosik as a role model which is definitely relevant. Your edit may be criticised just as well.

All other cases happened before a Wikiquette Alerts discussion (26 March) for which he's already been warned, presenting these as new cases is a bit misleading.

Let's not forget how he received some of those warnings. He's a relatively new user, so asking him to read WP:CIV would be OK I think.

Regarding offensive edit summaries someone else has also a thing or two to learn despite being an experienced user. Squash Racket (talk) 17:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For "Bratislava" "(...)has been declared on October 28 in Prague, the leaders of Bratislava (where the majority of the population are Germans or Hungarians, see below) want to prevent Bratislava from becoming part of Czecho-Slovakia and declare the town a free town and rename it Wilsonovo mesto (Wilson City) after US-president Woodrow Wilson.", aaaaand: "(...) Legions on January 1 1919 (only the left river bank; the right river bank, not belonging to Bratislava yet, was occupied only on August 14th). It has been chosen as seat of Slovak political organs over Martin and Nitra]]; the government moved to the city on 4–5 February. On March 27, the town's official new name becomes "Bratislava" - instead of "Prešporok" (Slovak) / "Pressburg" (German) / "Pozsony" (Hungarian)." from History of Bratislava#20th_century - so wherever anyone restored "Bratislava" in pre-March 27 1919 context had falsified history, and highly compromised Wikipedia's credibility, and to say something rude and true to talk about: vandalized those particlular Wikipedia pages. --Rembaoud (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Hedvig Malina

If you look at Talk:Hedvig_Malina/Archive_1#Requested_move, there have been more people, not just one, arguing for the use of her official name instead of the one preferred by the Hungarian media. That is also my view, based on the statistics cited on the article's talk page. As you can see from the history of the page, I was not part of that lengthy edit war and I will be happy to change my opinion if more convincing evidence for the Hungarian name is provided. By the way, I would appreciate your opinion at User_talk:Ricky81682#Bratislava_topics. Tankred (talk) 15:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Slovak name is used by the Slovak media, is that any way better? The Hungarian version is supported by an official letter from the US Congress. There is no more credible English language source using the Slovak name. Also because of the case being sensitive, I don't think the Slovak version would help future stability of the article. Squash Racket (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your answer to User_talk:Ricky81682#Bratislava_topics would be welcome more than ever. Despite all the possible NPA warnings that an editor can get, User:Nmate resorted to personal attacks again. In an edit summary, he/she said " jeden: naničhodník; dva: nepotrebný; tri: Sweetovid". This Slovak sentence can be translated as "one: a rogue, two: unneeded, three: Sweetovid", clearly referring to another editor (User:Svetovid).[7] Given the record of personal attacks and hate speech by User:Nmate, I would expect Wikipedia's administrators to react at least as firmly as they did in the case of Svetovid's edit warring. I am sorry to ask you personally for help in this issue, but you seem to be around. Tankred (talk) 17:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(sorry to jump in) No comment to the comment below me. Now I think it's high time for administrators to do something about this. Yes, I believe he/they try to throw red herrings to distract from his actions, and especially from the examples of hate speech. MarkBA ^{what's up?/my mess} 19:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ricky! Do not believe Tankréd's message. What I wrote does not mean it in Slovak.I commented Svetoid's writings simply:1, useless 2,trivia 3, Sweetovid.Is Sweetovid a serious personal attack? I had to respond that the Slovaks do not allow it that let me write into the Slovak topics. If i would write my opinion of Tankréd behaviour sincere I could get blocking for it really.Nmate (talk • contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 18:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone can verify my translation of Nmate's words by checking an online dictionary. Moreover, Nmate has just attacked again.[8] Perhaps it is supposed to be funny, but I did not join Wikipedia 7,400 edits ago to laugh at jokes about myself. I could go to a comedy show instead. I joined this project to write articles. Tankred (talk) 20:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nmate also called me a good-for-nothing fink in a recent edit.
But I probably shouldn't complain, because Ricky already blocked me for complaining.
This is getting funnier by the minute.--Svetovid (talk) 13:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: same edit mentioned above by Tankred in detail. I would also like to know if someone edited from IPs in an abusive way with a number of brutal edit summaries or not. Squash Racket (talk) 13:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject templates

(continuation of discussion on where is the listed consensus on which WikiProject template should be placed on an article)

Will try to dig it for you, hope I will remember where exactly. However there were discussion about WikiProject Germany in the Czech cities and villages. There was a hot debate and the result was that it is a not good idea to place WikiProjects of other countries to other countries. Because it brings only a hot blood. For example Berlin can be under WikiProject Germany, Russia, France, Great Britain, USA etc ... Prague under WikiProject Austria, Czech Republic, Germany etc. and hundreds of other cities and places all over the Wikipedia. We discussed that it may be a harmful practice and may discourage editors from editing when you wake up go to Wikipedia and see shiny waving flag of the other country at the talk page of your city. Also it brings POV pushing and territorial ownership tendencies of some editors. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 19:05, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Piotrus or Darwinek may confirm that as they were participants in that debate. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 19:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would think that it would be the opposite, that adding all applicable WikiProject banners would be more calming than trying to decide which one was most applicable. But I'd be interested in a link to the debate. You might also want to check Wikipedia:WikiProject Council. --El on ka 20:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that this is even possible. Try this very simple test, go to the Paris article and put into its talk page {{WikiProject Germany}}. Stand to the corner and wait and see what happens :) Then please report. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 21:02, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:POINT. --El on ka 21:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I mean it more like a joke, I hope it could be heard from the tone. But the point is same. I will ask Piotrus and Darwinek to join us here. Their opinions will be welcomed. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 21:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, I don't want my talkpage to become the new debate center for this. I'm just saying, you made several article changes, "per consensus". So could you please point me to that consensus? Thanks, El on ka 21:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but you have raised serious questions that need to be answered. I do not want to be punished for my edit summaries again, so I would like to hear what Piotrus and Darwinek think about that as they were participants in that debate before. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 21:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry the participant was not Piotrus, it is more then year old debate but you would read it here [9]. Specifically [10]. However Piotrus and Darwinek's input would be welcomed. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 21:33, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We should continue at my talk page [11]. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 21:35, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Names

Dear Elonka, I did not make any changes. I merely reverted undiscussed changes made by User:Rembaoud that went both against WP:NCGN and against the consensus among the members of the Wikiproject:Slovakia (which covers these articles). Rembaoud is welcome to provide evidence that the Hungarian geographic names that he inserted into articles about Slovakia are widely accepted in English. WP:NCGN lists what is needed for it and Rembaoud has read that convention. WP:NCGN also states that, in order to prevent edit warring, articles should use the default geographic names (as used in the title of the article about the place in question) until someone proves that a different name is widely accepted in English. Tankred (talk) 16:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Tankred, we did not get any protection against uncivil behavior and disruption, instead of that we are punished and threatened. Elonka why don't you warn editor Nmate for summaries like this I removed one-sided edition by braček, jaz daljni odporný šovinistický verzia z Tankred (odporny sovinisticky = ugly chauvinistic), etc ... see here [12]. He stays not warned. Or Rembaud [13]. I wrote summary that I am reverting vandalism and I am on the black list. We are encouraged to discuss changes, we do, but the other side don't. We are warned, other side not. What should we do? What should we do? I am asking twice ... I am getting little bit concerned and I am thinking about ArbCom because this leads to nothing and nowhere and I do not want to wake up and think which warning I get now? ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 16:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have placed both Tankred and Nmate under ArbCom editing restrictions, per the Digwuren case. I am not issuing any blocks for past actions though, because I would like to try to "wipe the slate clean" and give everyone a chance to improve their behavior from now on. But if there are further problems with civility, harassment, edit warring, or making any kinds of controversial edits without engaging in good faith discussion, blocks will be issued. I encourage everyone to take advantage of this amnesty, and cease all disruptive behavior. --El on ka 09:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tankred

An IP address made a report on WP:AIV about Tankred today (diff). I removed the report as I didn't see clear-cut vandalism. I also saw you're involved, so I'm going to defer this to you. However, I wanted to let you know that whatever's going on as far as edit conflicts and that user, it's gotten under somebody's skin enough that they filed a vandalism report. —C.Fred (talk) 01:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know. I agree that there seem to be a multitude of problems with this user's conduct. I'm new on the scene so am still coming up to speed, but I think he's gotten more than enough second chances at this point, and unless he shapes up, there's probably another block in his future. I am also seeing some evidence of possible sockpuppetry, so if you hear about any other disruption that's related to this user or topic area, please let me know. Thanks, El on ka 01:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I only guess that the anonymous user who filed four complaints in three different fora does not like my removal of a picture from Slovak National Party. The picture is likely to be a copyright violation and the caption wrongly informs that it was published by the Slovak National Party. The license tag of the picture even says that the picture was created by the chairman of that party. In fact, this hoax picture was not published by the Slovak National Party, but appeared in an online discussion forum on the servers of that party and was removed from there after complaints. The anonymous user took the picture from another website without permission and uploaded it to Wikipedia with incorrect statements. I removed it from the article and this is his/her revenge. As to my conduct, I have never ever used any sock puppets and I strongly oppose their use in general. That 78... IP is not mine. In fact, the WHOIS shows that the IP is located far from where I live. You can ask for a CheckUser. I would only welcome such a request to avoid any misunderstandings. As to my user page, it shows my frustration with how Wikipedia is run. I had been using what you now recommend for a very long time. I tried to discuss User:Nmate's edits with him/her. Later, I posted warnings. In fact, Nmate has received more than ten warnings from four or five different editors. He/she has deleted them all. Several of us has asked for help at ANI, but we were told to warn Nmate on his/her talk page. It is nice that you are so concerned about the fact that the diffs posted on my user page might hurt feelings of some users. I am more concerned about the fact that these users can freely attack me and many other editors on talk pages and in edit summaries. I am concerned about the hate speech that Nmate keeps inserting into articles and talk pages. Since no one has cared about it until now, I have voiced my concerns on my user page. If you think it is inappropriate, I will be happy to change it. Could you pinpoint the parts that violate the existing policies and say what parts of these policies they violate? I will fix it. But I would also expect you to be equally vigilant about a user calling other editors "ugly chauvinists", saying that the Dutch nation does not exist, and replacing Magyarisation by industrialization - all in one day, today, despite all the previous warnings. Tankred (talk) 02:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Elonka, thank you for contacting me and thanks for the heads up. Indeed, I should have left a comment on Tankred's talk page regarding my edit on his user page. Guess I forgot so I'll apologize to him. Anyway, seems like he has meanwhile removed much of the intro that could be considered harassment, and that's quite positive. Some leftovers could still be frowned upon though. Only this week I have been informed about these users' ongoing dispute. I have received scarce details about it, but it's apparently a Slovak versus Hungarian name dispute. Could have something to do with southern Slovakia, where a strong Hungarian minority lives. But I'm not sure, I still haven't looked at it in depth. Coincidentally, I'm going to Hungary and Slovakia this weekend. Guess I should invite these folks for a meeting at the border and peace talks. :-) Best regards, Húsönd 02:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Elonka, I think the IP belongs to User:MarkBA. This edit summary rang the bell. He also used the phrase "Capiche?" during a discussion here (and I've never heard this coming from anyone else on Wikipedia). Here he tries to own an article MarkBA created. The IP edited exclusively Slovakia related articles, just like MarkBA. Here making similar edits as MarkBA earlier at the very same article. Here edit warring at a category MarkBA created. More than suspicious. Squash Racket (talk) 05:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As it is obviously disruptive, could you block this IP? For that it needs to be confirmed by a Checkuser that it is MarkBA's IP? Squash Racket (talk) 06:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since there was so much bad blood, and disruptive behavior on the part of multiple users, I'd like to give a general amnesty for some types of actions. I have posted a note on that IP's talkpage, asking him (her?) to join us at this experiment page. If there is future disruption though, then a block is definitely an option. Or do you think that there is some other reason that an immediate block is needed? Do you think that the IP is being used to get around a block of some other account? --El on ka 07:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You've seen all the edit summaries? MarkBA decided to "retire" two weeks ago, if it's him with "free speech" in the edit summaries, perhaps it would be better to get him back to using his account. Squash Racket (talk) 07:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I thought that account was still active because I saw today's date on his userpage, but I see now that it was an automated datestamp. I have posted an invitation to that account as well. --El on ka 07:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thread

Hi Elonka, There is an ANI thread here that partly deals with some of the issues discussed above. Hobartimus (talk) 05:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tankred's userpage

Some concerns were raised about the banner at User:Tankred. It seems he may have toned it down some, is everyone okay on the information that is there, or do you still find it offensive? Please post here, thanks. --El on ka 06:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Tankred's and MarkBA s' user pages are injurious equally.Although a name is not mentioned in it They concern me the hate speech, obnoxious chauvinis, mob, crazy political propagandist... statements.If you are with a name, or without a name is irrelevant these words serious defamations.Nmate (talk • contribs)

Nmate, thank you for participating. :) I took a look at both pages, and I agree that Tankred's statements were not acceptable since they targeted specific editors. I have removed the banner, and told him not to replace it. As for MarkBA's banner, MarkBA (talk · contribs) has not edited Wikipedia since April 12. If he were an active editor, I might ask him to remove the banner, but since it does not target anyone or any ethnicity specifically, and it is on his private userpage, which probably no one else will be visiting (since he is gone), it is probably safe to leave it there for now. If he returns and wants to resume editing, I will ask him to remove or change the banner. Does that help address your concerns? --El on ka 09:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tankred's user page is O.K. but it is probably that user 78.99.121.251 is a MarkBA sockpupet.He used the "capiche" word yesterday in his summary in the Petržalka article and MarkBA used this word exclusively here.Their retirements are tricks only, that they feel sorry for them, they can instigate relative (Slav) editors against the Hungarians thus, and they can do personal attacks. Tankred retired earlier because of the Hungarian chauvinists already once:[14]

Nmate (talk • contribs)

If there are future personal attacks, please do this:

Get a diff of the attack
Post the diff at the editor's talkpage. Use a section header that describes the policy that was violated, such as "Civility" or "Personal attacks".
Tell the editor, very politely, that they must not engage in attacks. Link to the appropriate policy, such as WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA.
List the attack here on this page, saying who issued the attack, and providing the diff, so that I or one of the other admins can take a look at it.

Thanks, El on ka 12:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please remove MarBA's userpage, and investigate wheter 78.99.121.251 and/or User:78.99.32.229 are him. I heared administrators see editors IPs. I am intrested wheter he edited from even more IPs (I am sure) for the sole purpose of edit warring and placing blatant personal attacks in edit summaries and talkpages. And also wheter he did such thing before. I mean posting personal attacks under IP adresses to prevent his account of being "compromised". --Rembaoud (talk) 19:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found a new on Nmate's talkpage: User:78.99.176.151. OOOOOPS: User:84.47.32.229 (first edit) - however this may be a different user, like Svetovid, I guess. If not, sorry. --Rembaoud (talk) 19:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, loooooook at this: User:84.47.40.156. I found another one! User:84.47.30.84. The all edited the same page[15]. I am sure, tons of such would be found in all the other 40+ pages they edit warring. So, I hope it is not too early:

84.47.something probably Svetovid - posting various personal attacks, playing out WP:3RR
78.99.something probably MarkBA - same

If I'm wrong, sorry. --Rembaoud (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to misunderstand the purpose of this "experiment". It's not about getting as many people as possible banned, it's about solving editing disputes. You may have missed what Elonka wrote here: don't focus on behaviour in the past. I don't see the value of this "The "TReWs"" section, or of your reports right above here. contributions hasn't surfaced since April '07, contributions did 2 edits on 28 March. If you find new attacks, follow the steps Elonka listed above, including "Tell the editor, very politely, that they must not engage in attacks". Markussep ^Talk 20:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Name of this page

Just checking, is everyone okay with the name "Hungarian-Slovakian"? I'll freely admit that I'm unclear on some subtle differences such as whether it's more appropriate to say "Slovak" or "Slovakian", plus there may be other nationalities involved here. So if anyone has a suggestion for a better page name, please post it here, thanks. --El on ka 09:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Slovak and Slovakian are interchangeable but Slovak sounds more elegant :). Anyway, I have noticed that Romanian editors have their own experience with particular Hungarian editors inserting Hungarian names everywhere (obvious exaggeration but you get the point).--Svetovid (talk) 11:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The I feel this is more related to WikiProject Slovakia, where open discussion about "dealing with" Hungarian editors started rather than a general dispute. For example Tulkolahten (talk · contribs) as far as I can see had a completely different editing focus and was already under sanctions for reasons completely unrelated to any of this. However after numerous attack messages were posted at talk of WP:Slovakia and certain user pages he became involved to a large degree as a member of that project. There were also some disputes before but they were always managable when there was no efforts to escalate them through involving others using WikiProjects or other means. Hobartimus (talk) 12:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Petržalka

Petržalka (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Can someone please explain what the dispute is, at this article? Why is there an edit war? There's nothing at the talkpage, but editors have been pulling the article back and forth for a long time. What is going on? --El on ka 12:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted my reply at the talkpage. To the other points, sorry, but I don't think I'm too aggressive; I just want to keep the accepted status quo (ante bellum), not some creepy propaganda, if I got to tell it this way. Unfortunately, I believe their sins aren't exposed much yet; how come a comment suggesting that someone is a Nazi follower could go unpunished? (I've seen it somewhere) Why, why, and again, why? I'm asking thrice to emphasize. 78.99.121.251 (talk) 12:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can see it is warring about whether there should or should not be included Hungarian and German name of Petržalka in the first sentence. Namely whether it should sound "Petržalka (Hungarian (Pozsony)ligetfalu, German Engerau) is the largest borough of Bratislava ..." or "Petržalka is the largest borough of Bratislava ..." --Ruziklan (talk) 12:50, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:UE#Include alternatives, the common practice is to include other versions of names by which the article subject is commonly known. --El on ka 12:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think key issue is that both Engerau and Ligetfalu are historic names, but probably are not used anymore, perhaps except German and Hungarian sources. I have never seen Poszonyligetfalu however. --Ruziklan (talk) 13:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the key issue is rather the fact that due to poisonous attack messages some now see even minor disputes as "war" and want to protect the "status quo (ante bellum)" (as things were before the war). Hobartimus (talk) 13:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Was there edit warring over the sentence? Yes. I have just given the description of situation and try to explain to uninvolved Elonka probable reasons why the edit war has emerged. Personally, I would rather prefer inclusion of both names in the article per WP:UE#Include alternatives. I have also checked the good example of Basel that is internationally known Swiss town quite far from Italy, nevertheless, its preamble lists also Italian name that is most probably not used in any except Italian sources. So in my view the sentence should look "Petržalka (Hungarian Ligetfalu, German Engerau) is the largest borough of Bratislava ..." --Ruziklan (talk) 14:03, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ruziklan: it's spelled Pozsony (zs is pronounced like the g in the French name of Geneva), since it's meaningless if spelled like Poszony (where sz is pronounced like s in English).

Besides I don't know any native German speaker in person, so I don't know whether it's used. However I know many Hungarians who do use the term (usually not the rural people, but most of the original inhabitants of Bratislava do). Therefore I don't think that it's a historical name. Especially since it's still used in present-day Hungarian newspapers. BTW I've encapsulated the word Pozsony in parentheses because of the fact that it's Bratislava's name in Hungarian (where many village names near a bigger city have been created by adding the city's name as a prefix, like Budakeszi, Budaörs near Budapest, and the same naming convention has been followed throughout the whole Kingdom of Hungary, hence the Pozsony- prefix), but it's only formally called Pozsonyligetfalu. Informally it's called Ligetfalu/Liget. CoolKoon 18:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry for the misspelling. The term historical name I have used in a sense that Petržalka probably was referred to using these names widely in the past, probably even as official names, both Engerau and (Pozsony)ligetfalu. Currently these names are used almost exclusively only in original languages. Many similar examples exist worldwide. --Ruziklan (talk) 18:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have to disagree with you again. Take for example Geneva. It's German name is Genf, the Italian one is Ginevra. Does this mean that these are "unofficial"? No. And even if in English the French form is used, Hungarian for instance prefers the German form. Which means that all the three names can be used simultaniously. Another example is the German name of the villages/cities in South Tirol. Or the Catalan names of the cities in Catalonia, which is actually part of Spain. CoolKoon (talk) 18:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand with what you disagree. Have I written that Engerau or (Pozsony)ligetfalu cannot be used? No. The question could be however, whether these names actually are used in languages other than German and Hungarian. Probably we do not know, or do you?

And finally, I just want to restate that I prefer including these names in the artcile preamble as per above. --Ruziklan (talk) 19:00, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I haven't seen your latest comment above. But this still doesn't mean that Svetovid and the "Anonymous coward" (viva el Reg) whose IP address begins with 78.99..... will stop the revert war. CoolKoon (talk) 19:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hold my position that in this case, a double is completely redundant. If anything, keeping 'em separated prevents the lead clutter, regardless whether there are 2 or 10 alternatives. 78.99.121.251 (talk) 14:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like some people don't want Petržalka's Hungarian and German name to appear at the headline. I don't know the reason of that since I'm on the opposite side :P CoolKoon 18:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

From here: "has been declared on October 28 in Prague, the leaders of Bratislava (where the majority of the population are Germans or Hungarians, see below) want to prevent Bratislava from becoming part of Czecho-Slovakia and declare the town a free town and rename it Wilsonovo mesto (Wilson City) after US-president Woodrow Wilson." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rembaoud (talk • contribs) 18:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And your point is ... ? I think nobody denies that both Bratislava and Petržalka have had different names in the past than they have today. (By the way, I do not think Petržalka was a part of Bratislava in 1918.) --Ruziklan (talk) 19:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of Slovaks

There is a major disagreement about content of this list. The core of dispute is in my view rooted in the definitions of the inclusion criteria. One side prefers the following three-condition-start

This is a list, in alphabetical order within categories, of notable people who either:

are or were citizens of Slovakia or Czechoslovakia,
are or were of Slovak identity or ancestry,
were born in the territory of present-day Slovakia and/or who have lived there for most of their lives.

while the other side prefers the followinf two-conditions-start

This is a list of notable people who either:

are or were citizens of Slovakia or Czechoslovakia,
are or were of Slovak identity or ancestry,

There are some other points within article repeatedly reverted, including in my view virtually non-disputed points, but the inclusion criteria should be made clear first. --Ruziklan (talk) 13:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ruziklan. :) Can you provide some links to where this has been discussed at the talkpage? Or is this another one where the disagreement is mainly going on via edit-warring? Also, could you please post a note at the talkpage there, linking people to this discussion? Thanks, El on ka 13:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This was extensively discussed at the talk page see in this thread This is only distantly related though one connection is that it was brought up on talk of WP:Slovakia in a thread presumably to get more users involved in the specific content dispute. I think we really need a ruling of some sorts if it's acceptable to gather support for edit wars or disputes this way? Hobartimus (talk) 13:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was disussed extensively, but not fully. Other argument is brought by me in the thread False information?!. By way of example, so far nobody here denies that Johann Andreas Segner was not Slovak by his nationality (although some sources in Slovakia make Slovaks by nationality almost from everyone, :-)), but Segner's ties to Slovakia and his being understood as Slovak scientist in general sense (as well as German and Hungarian and whatever) make him in my view eligible for being included in the list of people that have something to do with Slovakia. Two criteria are not enough. The third in the present form seems to be disputed because it is not in line with page title. So let's discuss the third criterion.

And surely this page is not related only distantly as firstly edit warring involved more or less the same users as other pages mentioned here and secondly many disputed people on List of Slovaks are of Hungarian nationality. --Ruziklan (talk) 13:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(reply to Hobartimus, edit conflict) It really depends, such as on how many posts are being sent, and who they're being sent to, and how they're worded. See WP:CANVASS. It's definitely fine, and even encouraged, to request comments from related WikiProjects. If you want to get more uninvolved editors into the discussion, I recommend filing an RfC (request for comment). The way through this is to keep talking, and see if you can find a compromise solution. It might also be useful to look at how other contentious areas have solved this problem. For example, read the lead paragraphs at List of Russians and List of Poles (or other ethnicities), and see if there is something there that you might be able to adapt towards finding your own consensus. --El on ka 13:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All this has already been discussed at Talk:List_of_Slovaks#R.C3.A1k.C3.B3czi_and_Kossuth.3F and Talk:List_of_Slovaks#page_name. Please read those threads if you are interested in this case. Tankred (talk) 15:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) In this particular case I think the trouble is with the audience being partisan instead of non-partisan considering all of the above mess and the involvement of WP:Slovakia members. And maybe also the neutrality of the message. I guess my question is if a Hungarian user wants to use WikiProject Hungary to call attention to specific content disputes, in a similar fashion what can be told to him/her? Do it don't do it, do it until the message is neutral etc? As to the specific List of Slovaks the topic had extensive discussion even before Ruziklan's involvement starting two weeks ago with comments from a larger group of users spreading accross several threads there so this is definitely one area where we had plenty of discussion and I think consensus -regarding at least the issue of the inclusion criteria- can be determined after full reading of that talk page. Hobartimus (talk) 15:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And that consensus, as you see it, is...? My impression was that in the thread mentioned by you (Inclusion_Criteria) the discussion was lead mainly by users from the group opposing any third criterium, namely István, K. Lásztocska, Koppany, Hobartimus and Rembaoud, the exceptions being Tankred and KaracharNevian with one comment each, so no wonder if the result of this particular thread discussion would be in "no third criterium". My comments were made later, not in that thread, that is true.

Generally speaking, I think following the example of List of Russians given above by Elonka seems to be quite meaningful way forward in my view. --Ruziklan (talk) 15:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please just give me a few examples that you think should be included in a "list of Slovaks" but could not be included without the 3rd criterion? If there are really such important persons that could rightly be placed on a "list of Slovaks" but they don't fit the first two, they could be included on a case by case basis perhaps? Hobartimus (talk) 15:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion on case-by case basis is probably not a good idea. One could claim that all included people not fitting the two criteria were included on a case-by-case basis - "I would include them" or "I would not include them" anytime in edit summary. Do you think this could work with previous history of edit warring?

Examples are abundant. I have already named Johann Andreas Segner and many of people included in my Talk:List of Slovaks#Detailed_edit_summary are good examples as well. Also, you can check the Slovak page [16] with subtitle "najvýznamnejšie osobnosti Slovenska" that can be translated "the most important personalities of Slovakia". The page includes many people considered as important personalities in the Slovak history in spite of not being of Slovak identity nor citizenship. Of course, these people are repeatedly named as such in Slovek printed sources, I am giving the page osobnosti.sk only for quick reference. This everything is just giving good reason to follow the List of Russians style. --Ruziklan (talk) 16:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a clear dividing line between Slovak and Hungarian participants of the discussion at Talk:List of Slovaks. I do not see any reason why you should call the members of WikiProject:Slovakia (a project having this article in its scope) partisans, while you do not say a word about the Hungarian discussants. They are impartial? People who have never contributed to List of Slovaks miraculously found that discussion? They did not came from the Hungarian regional noticeboard, right? [17] The Hungarian regional noticeboard is used regularly to coordinate action of Hungarian editors on articles related to Slovakia, Romania, and Serbia, see these threads: [18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28] Except for two very recent threads at its talk page, the WikiProject:Slovakia has been used to coordinate improvement of articles from stubs to full articles, from A articles to GAs, and from GAs to FAs. That is the purpose of this project ansd I protest against the attempt to discredit our fellow editors because they participate in a wikiproject. Tankred (talk) 15:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tankred, I notified Czech editors at their noticeboard, also the Germans at their noticeboard. I didn't send a message to Slovaks, because they didn't have their own noticeboard. In fact, my next edit was helping create it. Thanks for the honest presentation of what happened.

BTW all the threads you mentioned at the Hungarian board are rather old, so I can't tell if you presented those the same way or not. Squash Racket (talk) 16:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(reply to Tankred) I can't help but notice that all of these diffs you link are at least half a year old, if not more while we discuss edits above that were made this month. Hobartimus (talk) 15:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CoolKoon has just inserted Gábor Demszky into List of Slovaks (see ~~diff~~ diff) in spite of

discussion over the list inclusion criteria just now running here,
no evidence on page on Gábor Demszky that he has any tie to Slovakia.

Also despite following current politics I have no idea how he is tied to Slovakia. The provided reference [29] should probably document his tie to Slovakia, but is in Hungarian language therefore I ask him to give brief summary here. Posting to his talk page. --Ruziklan (talk) 19:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry for the reference in Hungarian, but I couldn't find any in English. However the article is about Demszky's visit to Kosice to meet with Kosice's mayor. Part of the article is also a fact that Demszky's 80-year father is still fluent in Slovak, and he has spent many summer holidays during his childhood at his grandparents who lived in Kosice, and that's why he thinks it's important to reunite the families and ties cut by the borders (of Trianon), especially in today's globalising Europe. The proof of his commitment is the fact that he's writing a book about his grandparents, his grand-grandparents and the era they lived in.

So I hope this explains his ties to Slovakia (or at least to Kosice). CoolKoon (talk) 19:34, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Shortly said, it means his ancestors are Slovak.

This example thus gives good example of important point in the list construction. In Slovakia Johann Andreas Segner (included in the currently discussed list a few times according to the disputed third criterion) is surely considered more Slovak than Gábor Demszky despite the fact that latter is Slovak according to the second (undisputed) criterion. --Ruziklan (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cat:History of Bratislava and Cat:Roman Catholic cathedrals in Slovakia

I think the category of the Roman Catholic cathedrals in Slovakia belongs into the category of Hungary's history inevitable because all these churches important parts of the medieval Hungarian culture. St. Martin's Cathedral was the scene of the Hungarian kings' coronation.

Bratislava was parts of Hungary for 1000 years and Bratislava was the Hungarian capital city for 300 years so it belongs to the History of Hungary Category.Nmate (talk • contribs)

You still don't understand the basics and mistake Kingdom of Hungary, the multinational and multilingual kingdom, with today's Republic of Hungary.--Svetovid (talk) 19:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tankred's credibility

Tankred says A, and does (and thinks) B. The perfect example is on his userpage:[30]. He writes (states) "all right no names" - and posts multiple personal and general attacks against Hungarian users. Perfect example. He posted tons of misleading edit summaries wich I reported on WP:ANI, but all he got was a warning. I reported many times his edit warring and his misuse of wikipedia policies, using them as a weapon in disputes. WP:NCGN nowhere states what he tries to make you believe. It even has an example of the very same thing at Gdansk/Danzig how to deal with such things. Tankred as described above, is a notorius edit warrer, blocked multiple times for edit warring, he recruits users for edit warring, and when he runs out of reverts he goes IP. Same summaries, same pages, same reverts, everything is sooooo the same that eventually it quacks so loud that I hardly hear my own thoughts :) If its MarkBA, than they should be investigated, if they are the same person, or could be close friends. I found another IP since:[31], from the very same place, internet provider, etc. "removing chauvinistic vandalism". Tankred's standards of "hate speech" perfectly mets with what he himself wrote on his userpage and was removed by Elonka and multiple other editors in multiple times for some obvious reason. Tankred broke the 3RR there btw, and...see the link for stating A, doing B again:[32].

Tankred also misinterprets edits, and actions of other users[33] (last comments)

Tankred's claims, statements and whatever he writes should and must MUST be treated with high suspicion and distrust. Says A, or he even acts like A, then immediately switches back to B. Also doing WP:DRAMA by "retiring" (for 2 days:) and such. Do not believe him, he is a great manipulator. --Rembaoud (talk) 18:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at your contributions and you are a good example of tendentious editing. Why is inserting Hungarian names into Slovakia-related articles basically the only thing you do in Wikipedia? How does that help in English Wikipedia?--Svetovid (talk) 19:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "TReWs" :)

T=True R=Revert W=Warriors - The True Revert Warriors:

Block logs cleary reveals whom are the "real revert warriors".

User:Svetovid: 3x blocked for edit warring, look at his contribution list[34]. When he was unable to manage Nmate blocked, he eventually attacked the administrator wich tried to mediate between them. See this:[35] and this oddity[36]. He made some other funny "steps" against this "biased user", but I dont wan't to turn this summary into some cabaret even more.
User:Tankred:4x blocked, all during edit warrings, twice he was paroled due to bad WP:3RR policies, wich punishes the more agressive. Stop here, and think a bit, while looking at his contribution list[37] that how disruptive this user can be, if he can make many users such angry that they can be even more (!) agressive. Tankred is under general restriction since April 17.
User:PANONIAN: 3x blocked for edit warring. There's a note on his(?) userpage wich shows that when he "finished editing" on nov 6, there was a discussion about him on the Hungarian wikipedians noticeboard, that they fed up with PANONIAN's behaviour[38] and want(ed) to take it into some higher "court". It seems, that he created and uploaded misleading and even false maps at large. This should be investigated for good. When he "came back" for some edits, an IP told him, that there is a community ban proposal written for PANONIAN[39], and will be posted, if he "dares to come back". Not the best way of informing about a proposal, true, but it can be fully uprehended, looking at this list.
User:MarkBA - no blocks but mass uncivility and multiple attempts to manage Nmate blocked wich all fall back on him[40], since he was way more uncivil to Nmate (and others in general). Probably he got, what he gave, and Tankred vs Nmate possibly the same. Mark now seemingly edit warring from at least one IP [41] if true. This is possibly him too[[42]], if the previous was, since both are 78.99.(...), and WHOIS are the same. Pretty sure that there is more of his IPs out there, probably breaking 3RR, WP:CIV, WP:NPA and eventually everything else. Massive general attacks: "couple of mobs pushing their crazy political propaganda", "being chased or harassed by a couple of jerks", "fight extreme nationalist and chauvinistic edits" (see the favourite words? "chauvinistic", "propaganda", "nationalist" :)) ) - obviously referring to Hobartimus, Squash Racket and - probably - me. Indirect personal attacks. It should be deleted as well as Tankred's such attack was[43], for good.
User:Tulkolahten:3x blocked for edit warring. Posted also multiple misleading edit summaries. When it is revealed[44], he goes into edit warring and a lame dispute[45], trying to prove that red is indeed, not red, just seems like red. Tulkolahten's edit summaries are also lacking credibility. See the latest:[46] and try to find when did Hradec Kralove became HK (aka a non-german town) (some wikiclues:Expulsion of Germans after World War II & [47]). This edit is what I call history falsification. Tulkolahten is under general restriction since March 30.

Favourite words they used describing Hungarian users: "chauvinist", "propaganda", "joining co-ethnics"[48], "nationalist" etc. See many links above and elsewhere on this page. General uncivility, constant abuse and accusations ("chauvinist", "vandal", etc, guess what else). Mass and general uncivility, many of it on the edge of personal attacks or even being personal attacks.

User:Hobartimus:No blocks.
User:Nmate:[49] One block for "disruption" for 12 hours, despite the constant and huge and etc etc. you already know all. 1 block for 12 hrs despite being the "public enemy no.1." for Tankred, Svetovid and co. I would be intrested who could get less while being under constant heated attacks from multiple (usually 3 editors) and posted twice a day at WP:ANI, WP:VANDAL and whatever community page where admins block users, everywhere being described [Nmate] by them [Tankred] as the evil himself. A wish for blocking Nmate is posted here on this page too. What a suprise. :) Are you still wondering why Nmate posts such comments as this:[50]
User:Squash Racket:blocked once for edit warring, during a dispute with guess who:[51]. Yes, Tankred. He obviously flurred him up, as he did with me, when I asked for the deletion of my account. If it wouldn't sound funny I would say this is his "tactic". Driving ppl to madness, edit warring and mass uncivility. He's doing it well btw.

User:Rembaoud. No blocks, and nothing else, and won't be. I asked for the deletion of my account solely as a protest against Tankred's mere existence on English Wikipedia. I believe from my full heart and from what I saw and linked, that the Wikipedia would be a much better place without Tankred, and that without Tankred and Svetovid, the cooperation between Slovak and Hungarian users would not be a funny utopia. Or at least I hope that they were not able to burn up all bridges between Slovak and Hungarian users, despite their constant agressive attempts during the years to create a "frontline" and create a "fortress" from where they can "shoot" at Hungarian users.

And I haven't summarized the constant misuse of warning templates, however Tankred usually collects and links them all as "evidence" despite that they were at least once asked to refrain from posting false warnings or misuse of them. I cant find the link so please link it here, if you find:[ ]. --Rembaoud (talk) 17:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was not blocked 3 times, only once. Please read it properly, the first block was quickly unblocked by another administrator. I assume very uncivil to bring block that is one year old to get down my arguments. As my summary about Hradec Kralove, look for this in the diff In 1840, he returned to Bratislava via Prague and Königgrätz and I changed it to this In 1840, he returned to Bratislava via Prague and Hradec Králové. I changed it again and I started a discussion on the talk page per Elonka's advice. The summary by Gene Nygaard was explained by Wanderer and some other editors that may assume word falsification in a very offensive meaning. I don't see any point here from you. And your comment about Hradec Kralove as a German city, I think it is just a misunderstanding by you that can be very easily corrected in the close library where you should go and borrow some book about history of Central Europe, sometimes it helps, believe me. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 17:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One more point, you will not win if you call us all as edit warrers, uncivil creatures etc. etc. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 17:38, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

General restrictions I am placed on require me to stay civil and I am civil. Nothing more, nothing less. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 17:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do these descriptions lead to any dispute resolution? I believe these are against the spirit and aim of this talk page. Elonka has cleaned the table for everyone, all older actions were under kind of amnesty. Please, concentrate on discussion of the content of disputed articles. --Ruziklan (talk) 17:46, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The difference between Tulkolahten's comment and minne, that Tulkolahten was blocked for edit warring multiple times, so calling him an "edit warrer" is nothing but writing down pure facts. His block log is the source for ths claim. Tankred, Svetovid the same. But it is enough to look at your contribution lists. 4/5th (or even more) are "undid revision..."

I didn't call anyone "uncivil creature", but simply uncivil, BUT I provided many links also to prove my belief that what I see and call "mass uncivility" is - in fact - mass uncivility, and I am absolutely convinced about it, as everything I stated about you. With links proving it. --Rembaoud (talk) 18:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not want to think that you are unable to read, but have you read the blocks in my block log? I don't think so. ≈Tulkolahten≈^≈talk≈ 20:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Trnava

Trnava (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

To introduce another edit war article that is already within scope of this experiment, I have inspected recent edits at Trnava article. The reverting is centered around sentence with two versions (I have emphasized the different word):

"The St. Adalbert Association (Spolok sv. Vojtecha), founded in 1870 when the Slovak foundation (Matica slovenská) was prohibited by the Hungarian authorities, kept up the Slovak national conscience at a time of strong Magyarisation in Hungary."

"The St. Adalbert Association (Spolok sv. Vojtecha), founded in 1870 when the Slovak foundation (Matica slovenská) was prohibited by the Hungarian authorities, kept up the Slovak national conscience at a time of strong industrialization in Hungary."

My two cents follow. This sentence tries to explain the role of Spolok sv. Vojtecha at the time, and the role was (besides other roles) keeping up the national conscience. Although the industrialization might have taken place at that time as well, Magyarisation is the key process that was countered by this role of Spolok sv. Vojtecha. Therefore the sentence makes more sense in the first version. --Ruziklan (talk) 18:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree completely. I have started a discussion with Nmate, who was the one who kept replacing "Magyarization" with "industrialization". See Talk:Trnava#Strong Magyarization, User talk:Nmate#Your_edits_2 and User talk:Markussep#Reply. At least the edit war has stopped for now. The main point Nmate seems to be trying to make is that Slovaks also did nasty things to Hungarians. Markussep ^Talk 19:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 250: / Line 250: @@
 I didn't call anyone "uncivil creature", but simply uncivil, BUT I provided many links also to prove my belief that what I see and call "mass uncivility" is - in fact - mass uncivility, and I am absolutely convinced about it, as everything I stated about you. With links proving it. --[[User:Rembaoud|Rembaoud]] ([[User talk:Rembaoud|talk]]) 18:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
+::I do not want to think that you are unable to read, but have you read the blocks in my block log? I don't think so. '''[[User:Tulkolahten|<span style="background:#CCFFFF;color:#FF0033">≈Tulkolahten≈</span>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Tulkolahten|≈talk≈]]</sup>''' 20:04, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 == Trnava ==