Talk:Apocalypse

Plural form of the word "Apocalypse"

Does anyone know what the plural form of the word "Apocalypse" is? -- Unless

That would be Apocalypsa I believe. CaveatLector^Talk 22:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

---

Actually, it is not known commonly as "Revelation" but as "Revelations". People who point out that the latter is not a correct rendering of what is written are missing the point, which is that the plural form both is in ordinary spoken use, and has come down from a separate oral/visual tradition (a bit like Adam and Eve eating an apple, simply because that was the fruit ordinarily shown in stained glass window versions). PML.

But it is 'The Revelation. As the very first sentence says, :The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John -- Zoe

See? People miss the point. I am very carefully not saying anything about what it is - either way - I am pointing out what it is commonly known as. While it becomes a matter of approach, possibly of opinion, which is right, it is a matter of objective fact that it is not known commonly as "Revelation" but as "Revelations". Don't believe me? Do a straw poll of people you meet in the street (being careful not to predispose the answers). PML.

"Book of Revelations" on Google turns up 18,500 hits. "Book of Revelation" turns up 135,000. -- Zoe

I didn't suggest you consult putatively accurate information, even from secondary sources - I suggested that if you were concerned you should check what people thought. I am leading up to correcting that article in the respect in which it is incorrect - the way it claims that the last book of the New Testament is commonly called "Revelation". As to whether it ought to be called that, that is another question entirely. PML.

How can we possibly write a meaningful article based on "what people think"? Are we mind readers? Calling the book "Revelation" is not "incorrect", it's just not what you want it to be called. -- Zoe

Argh! People arguing at cross-purposes! Argh!

Zoe, PML's not saying that "Revelations" is correct, or that he/she wants people to call it "Revelations". PML's just saying that, as a matter of objective fact, many people do (incorrectly) call it "Revelations", and that consequently the article's statement that the Revelation is "known commonly as Revelation" is incomplete, if not actually wrong.

I agree with PML.

-- Paul A 02:19 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)

On second thought, I think the whole question is irrevelant for this article anyway: any statement about how the Book's title is abbreviated belongs in Book of Revelation, not Apocalypse.

-- Paul A 02:25 Mar 28, 2003 (UTC)

But PML is arguing that the last book of the New Testament is not commonly called "Revelation". But it is commonly called "Revelation", just not universally. -- Zoe

The common usage is, as it were, that commonly used - that commonly encountered - that used by the common people, if you choose to use a term with some pejorative overtones. Bearing that in mind, I have decided what change to try; have a look to see what you think, but comment here rather than reverting. PML.

Nope. That's even less the common usage than Revelation or Revelations. And yet you don't accept my Google count to show you which is the most common usage. -- Zoe

Of course not. It just shows the most common form found within the internet, and by one search approach at that (biassed in favour of a sort of groupthink, on this matter) - not the most common form out there on the street. Are you aware that "Nope" is an approach that will lead to vandalism? PML.

Are you aware that "Nope" is an approach that will lead to vandalism - What the HELL are you talking about? -- Zoe

"...have a look to see what you think, but comment here rather than reverting." ... "Nope." Or was that an unfortunate and unintended juxtaposition? PML.

I've had my say. And reverting, or modifying, is not vandalism, it's a difference of opinion. I won't mess with the article because it isn't worth an edit war, but you're severly illogical. -- Zoe

It's not the reverting that would have been vandalism, it's the shoot first and don't ask questions attitude that suggested the possibility of that. But your actions are more reasonable than you intimated they might be. Oh, and I waited for other people's insights to give me a reality check before I acted - that seemed logical enough for me. PML.

Future Apocalypse of Darwinian means?

There is suggestions throughout the theory of evolution and time that organisms get smaller during evolution to adapt to there environment. Earth was relatively bigger, and oxygen escapes naturally making the environment smaller. Now if we put this theory into practice, in accordance with the myths of Atlantean giants or similar species of larger ape as men, and reptiles evolving into birds, mammals devolving into rats, and oceanic species? its no suprise. Atlantis created the deluge, Venus was created from Jupiter and spured insects. Wat say Venus was not inhabited by insects? Larva? The heat of the sun? They out number us, and can destroy wat we become on this earth. Still oceans a satisfactory breeding ground? Motion stills and power cools. Even if the ocean became covered in water do to environmental catastrophes even it needs to cool. In a few trillion years maybe at the time of the red sun phase insects will populate the earth like it did venus.--69.255.16.162 20:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

ineffective people going to hell

For the following sentence an anonymous editor 69.160.210.206 added the phrase "ineffective people going to hell". "The eschatological end of the world was often accompanied by images of resurrection, judgement of the dead in apocalyptic literature, and ineffective people going to hell." To be honest, my knowledge of the Apocalypse and Revalations is rusty, and I'm just following the edits done by someone who has done some odd edits, but I doubt that the addition is accurate. Could someone please verify and correct this sentence if necessary. gK ¿? 04:46, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I just checked the page and I couldn't find this phrase. This is the first time I have ever heard such a thing. It's subjective. Who's 'ineffective'? Only God could or would make that decision and in any book of prophecy (from a christian viewpoint) that I have read, there is no mention of this. A person is saved from the penalty of the Second Death and the Lake of Fire simply by the Grace of God, specifically Jesus Christ. The doctrine is called "Justification by Faith" - we put our trust in the one who paid the penalty of our sins - that He covered it all - and we receive salvation, righteousness and eternal life - all as gifts from the Almighty. We did nothing to 'earn' them because it's impossible to cover sin by good works. This doctrine is in the Bible, specifically the book of 'Romans' in the New Testament.--MurderWatcher1 20:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

The Islamic section of this article is false at best

The part of the article concerning Islamic views on the apocalypse, seems either grossly confused or intended to confuse. For starters, Mirza Ahmed and his sect "the Ahmadis" or Qadiyanis are not considered muslims by either sunnis or shi`ites. Nor do Islamic beliefs admit anyone OTHER THAN Jesus Christ as the Messiah.

The more egregious error is in the author's claim that al-Azhar condones the Ahmadis' claims. It can't be further from the truth. As al-azhar and every other center of islamic scholarship and jurisprudence have been unanimous is rejecting the claims by Ghulam Mirza Ahmed from the start.

To repeat, islamic tenets are explicit that anyone claiming to be a prophet or a messenger after the prophet Muhammad, is a liar and a fraud; and that only Jesus Christ is awaited at the end times. There is difference on whether a Mahdi will appear.

The tendency to use the title, as a device to rally support and raise zeal in situations where a local leader is fighting a foreign occupier of a Muslim land (such as the sunni self-styled Mahdi in Sudan during Gordon's time in the XIXth century, and the shiite "Mahdi Army" in Iraq fighting the US occupation in 2003/2004.

Adding text (in the body of the article) and external links to pages subscribing to the Qadiyani/Ahmadi sect as part of Islam and Islamic beliefs and discourse is akin to passing Wicca or Paganism as part of Christianity.

Furthermore, concerning the notion that some of the more infamous or notorious militant figures associated with Islam, such as Osama bin laden, are milleniarists or apocalyptics is not sound. Neither Khomeini (a shi`ite) or bin-Laden (a sunni) have made any mention of the "end times" or of an apocalypse, nor do they seem to regard themselves as either mahdis or messiahs, as this would instantly discredit them in the eyes of Muslims (however discredited they already appear.)

My position on this matter can be amply verified from history as well as Islamic sources and texts.

I am therefore tempted to remove the problematic parts, but I have decided to wait a while, to see responses on this discussion page. If no one else removes the errors concerning this matter, eventually I hope to remove them myself.

I think you are correct on some points and not on others. Osama bin-Laden is clearly apocalyptic in the generic sense of the world, but avoids references to the end times as is appropriate for his religious background in Wahhabism. There are several views of the end times in Muslim theology. Why not fix what you can?--Cberlet 01:14, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Apocalypticism

This page concentrates on apocalyptism in Christianity, with some small amount of (disputed) material on Islam, and almost nothing on Judaism. I propose creating a seperate page on Apocalypticism and break the redirect. The page would look at the various scholarly theories on apocalyptic belief in the larger sense, including secular apocalypticism. This is a growing area of history and sociology, as well as religious studies. Brenda Brasher is an example.--Cberlet 01:15, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Nonsense

This article begins "The term "apocalypse" was introduced by F. Lücke (1832) as a description of the New Testament book of Revelation." I wondered what the writer of that could have been thinking. I was going to suggest some editing, but now that I've seen the Talk page... --Wetman 00:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Can anyone provide a cite to this F. Lücke character? Fluke? Is this a joke?--Cberlet 13:30, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Is this supposed to be Gottfried CF Lucke? He hardly invented the usage to describe Rveelation did he?--Cberlet 13:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Hindu Apocalypse

As far as I understand, because of the Hindu cyclical view of time, the apocalypse is not an end of existence as claimed in the introduction, but rather the end of the Kali Yuga, which causes a return to the first age of the time cycle. I don't have time now to research and correct this section, perhaps someone else does...

Move Pralay/Hindu material to separate article?

Judeo-Christian "revelations" have historically been called apocalyptic because many of those texts are in Greek. There are no Greek Hindu writings. It doesn't make sense to me to include terms like Pralay in this article which have no linguistic or historical relationship with Judeo-Christian apocalyptic literature. --Zeeshanhasan 04:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I vote 'Yes' - either move it to a separate articles (maybe with links to this one), or else move it down-the-ladder to the bottom as per a somewhat related sub-section. Otherwise we'll get nonsense like the Hopi Indian prophecies that were mentioned in the movie "Koyannisquatsi" which, while it was a good movie, is talking about things not biblically prophetic. 'Apocalypse' is, to my understanding, generally associated with christianity in origin. Okay with Judaism.--MurderWatcher1 20:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Seven Seals Inclusion

I am adding some to the Branch Davidians article and there is no mention of the Seven Seals there yet they represent the cornerstone of Davidian beliefs. Does anyone have any plans to add the Seven Seals to this article? Mr Christopher 16:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

List of doomsday scenarios

Could use votes to save this article, thanks MapleTree 22:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

thank the lord it was already deleted.200.83.56.253 08:01, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposed link

I have been instructed to post my website: http://www.geocities.com/b_d_muller/danrv.html for review. Please, if any reader thinks it is worth to be posted, do so. Bernard Muller

I have a problem with this sentence on your webpage:

Let's also note that neither 'Daniel' nor 'Revelation' have "antichrist(s)" in them. This word appears only five times in the whole Bible and exclusively in 1John & 2John. Here, the antichrist(s) are the non-Christian/heretical preachers or individuals who lived when the two aforementioned epistles were written.

Okay, the 'word' antichrist doesn't appear but the CONCEPT is definitely in both books! The 'king' mentioned in Daniel places the abomination which causes desolation; in Revelation we have the mention of the 'Beast'. This king in Daniel, and the Beast in Revelation are certainly the Antichrist. We've also had types of antichrists in the past. There were articles and books about 'Nero'; 'Antiochus Epiphanes' and others. You can check the list of books that I have on my user page if you'd like. While some of those books are dated, we've had a number of people 'weigh-in' on that title. Prophetically speaking, it's only a matter of time until the real one comes along.--MurderWatcher1 20:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

'2012' and Date Setting Discussions

It has been said that the year 2012 may be the possible apocalypse. More specifically on the winter solstice, December 21 of 2012 is said to be said apocalypse. The Ancient Mayan Calander, which was able to predict lunar eclipses thousands of years preceeding the said lunar eclipses, suddenly ends on said date. Many other oracles who were well credited as well said the same thing. Scientists now say that on that date the earth will come to align with the sun and the black hole at the center of the solar system. Once this happens the polar axises will dissalign, causing chaos. Tides will change and highten, the mantle will rotate and cause many earthquakes. All of theses things will happen if we dont create our own apocolypse throught global warming first.

A.C. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.219.41.148 (talk) 21:57, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

Will happen? Everything that you stated has been proven has not. All except for the Mayans and the rest of the skeptics through the years. Ill be sure to take something special that day, maybe I'll see something cool, but I doubt it.

I would like to use this post to suggest a table with all those possible apocalypse years and dates predicted so far like 1999, 2006, 2012 and so on.

Any true Christian knows that only God knows when the apocalypse will happen. The Book of Revelation in the New Testament of the Bible was not written for the end of the world, it was written because Christians were being persecuted! It was written to show the power of the One, True, and Almighty God so the persecuters would be scared and stop killing God's people! It is believed that on Judgement Day Jesus will come again, or His Second Coming (His first was when he was born). He will send the ones who rejected God completely to Hell, and the others will go to Purgatory, where they will reconcile for their sins. He will not only judge the living, but also the dead. As the Apostle's Creed says, "He will come again to judge the living and the dead." So for all we know, the Apocalypse could happen an hour, a day, or a year from now. Or even a thousand years from now! But anyway, Christiananity is a very rewarding religion. I've been a member of my Church for thirteen years now (I'm thirteen) and have learned very much. My faith has helped me through the rough times and there has nevr been a time when I have not been able to talk to God.Wikimichael22 (talk) 16:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)Wikimichael22

Good idea to me! We've had too many people and other groups setting dates. The first person I elect is this author with this book: "1994?" by Harold Camping; ©1992; Published by Vantage Press, Inc., 516 West 34th Street, NY, NY 10001. ISBN 0-533-10368-1; Library of Congress Cat. No. is unknown.--MurderWatcher1 20:20, 28

Recent Vandalism

My change, (convenience link for IPA) not substantive, needn't be restored; recommend making current protection permanent. Lycurgus (talk) 08:09, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

List of predicted (past, current, and future) apocalypses?

I noticed that there wasn't one. Maybe one should be added? 00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)00:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)~

See Also

A reminder: "See also" is not an excuse to list your favorite heavy metal concept album/novel/movie dealing with the apocalypse, or using it as a metaphor. There are a number of those there now – even including Coppola's Apocalypse now. Better replace all that with a section on the apocalypse in modern (not necessarily Christian) thinking. Things like 1960s fear of nuclear war, as a major theme in science fiction (The Terminator, Douglas Coupland), Terence McKenna's theories, its attraction in heavy metal ... JöG (talk) 22:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)