Talk:The Monkees

While this article is an admirable attempt to rehabilitate the Monkees, it's not NPOV and it's too obviously defensive. Face it, the Monkees didn't write their hit songs and they didn't play on them. The hit songs themselves are indeed good, but that's a tribute to the songwriters, producers, and session players. Just leave it at that. Also, this article is way too long. In particular, there is no reason for the full episode list of the TV show to be here, nor for the full lyrics of the revised Monkees theme. External links to sites containing this information is quite sufficient. --jls 20 Mar 2005

To jls: The Monkees did in fact play on some of their hit songs, including "The Girl I Knew Somewhere", "Pleasant Valley Sunday", "Words" and "Daydream Believer." No where in the article does it state that The Monkees wrote the hit songs...the names of the songwriters are clearly given credit. (Did you read the article in full?) Your notion that the songs are good and that it's merely a tribute to only the songwriters is yet another naive and uninformed opinion of the Monkees. Nobody cared who wrote the songs, people bought the records because they liked how they sounded and the personalities who sung them. How many people out there know that Carole King wrote "Pleasant Valley Sunday"??? Not many. But they do know who sang it, and they liked it, and that's a tribute to the Monkees themselves. If it's only the songwriters who mattered, then how did the four Monkees fill up Wembley Arena for two nights in 1997 when nobody was on stage but just the four of them? --MusicFan 26 Mar 2005

Early in the article it says Nesmith and Tork were professional musicians, which implies Jones and Dolenz weren't. But later it says all four were accomplished musicians. Which is it? Goes to the motivation of why the producers didn't let the Monkees play.

Fixed! (Wording of article needed correction)

Look, I agree the Monkees were very popular - I was around back then, and for a time in late 1966/early 1967 there were people who thought the Monkees were overtaking the Beatles. And their popularity then and now is largely attributable to their visual and singing personalities, and that's ok. The article is much better now with those long lists removed. However I still feel that the tone of the article is too defensively pro-Monkee. The songwriters and session players used for the Monkees' hits were better writers and musicians than the Monkees themselves, and that just deserves to be made clear in a non-defensive manner. And if you want another good example of this happening, Brian Wilson exclusively used session musicians on all but one track of Pet Sounds, because the Beach Boys weren't good enough for what he wanted to get. Beach Boys fans don't try to pretend otherwise. --jls 28 Mar 2005

I have re-read the article twice and submitted to another person for reading, and we both agreed that the article is fair and extensive. The article does not pretend them to be anything they are not...session musicians are noted as being used, as well as the Brill Building songwriters. It does not come out and say the Monkees are better than the Beatles, the article in fact says that the Monkees paled in comparison to the Beatles when the whole controversy over the band started in 1967. The article also notes that the band returned to session musicians for later recordings. Again, it appears to me that you want the article to be the typical snow job on the Monkees, without giving them the least bit credit. Even Rolling Stone Magazine, the #1 critic of the Monkees in the '60s, in recent years called the band and its output an example of 'fine 1960's pop.' Those who have written the article have provided a sound and accurate depiction of the Monkees. I encourage you to re-read the article again and provide a second assessment. For example, country singer George Strait has had 50 #1 hits, and he wrote NONE of them. Does that make him any less talented or less of an influence? --MusicFan 28 Mar 2005

I take your points, and I don't think that our disagreement is that large; I have no problem with that RS assessment, for example. Rather than try to explain my view further, I've made some edits which I think give better balance to the Monkees' story. Do with them as you will. I've also changed the order of the Hendrix paragraph to improve the flow. I've also added a description of the four Monkees "personalities", which it seems to me is a major item that had been left out. -- jls 28 Mar 2005.

jls: Your revisions are great: I enjoyed the debate! --MusicFan 29 March 2005

Dolenz, Jones, Boyce and Hart

I think there should be a little blurb in there about that incarnation. googuse 16:51, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)