Talk:Real-time strategy

Physics

Quote from article: "Recently, real-time strategy games have begun to incorporate physics engines, such as Havok, in order to increase realism. The first real-time strategy game to use a physics engine was Ensemble Studio's Age of Empires III, released on October 18, 2005,[9] which used the Havok Game Dynamics SDK to power its real-time physics. Company of Heroes, released September 14, 2006, was the first RTS that used real-time physics as a part of gameplay, including fully-destructible environments."

I believe that Homeworld used real-time physics for movement before any of these. I know you could also collide ships with each other and that the damage calculations took the mass of the ships into account. SharkD 04:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall being able to collide ships into each other in Homeworld. If there was at some point (say in the campaign; I never played through it) perhaps it was pre-calculated? bob rulz 05:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a special kamikaze attack in Homeworld 1 (it can also be added to Homeworld 2 via mods). Also, in Homeworld 2 you can enable collision damage via mods (it is disabled by default). This causes the ships to take damage if they happen to bump into each other (very annoying). Again, the damage calculations take mass and velocity into account. SharkD 05:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can see it in Homeworld 2 (I only played the demo). However, I don't think this is a physics engine, just an implementation of physics for specific features. For example; the bouncing warthogs in Halo. It wasn't a physics engine, just an implementation of physics, if you get what I'm saying. I don't pretend to know a lot about these technicalities, so hopefully what I'm saying makes sense. bob rulz 06:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Physics in Homeworld is a lot deeper than just bouncing warthogs. Also, the term "physics engine" is turning into a marketing buzzword. SharkD 01:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

How is it a marketing buzzword? A game either has a physics engine, or it doesn't. bob rulz 02:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Every game has a physics engine, or characters would've been able to walk trough walls and such. As already said it's a marketing buzzword. 83.228.35.28 (talk) 16:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is marketing, yes, every game has a physics model, but no, not every game can realistically claim a real-time physics engine. Mass and velocity used as input to a damage formula is not physics at all, really, it's just an arbitrary calculation. A physics engine is, in parlance, largely marked by the use of vectors, i.e. directional force. When the target ship is hit by the kamikaze, does the kamikaze impart its momentum to the target? Does it cause the target to spin? If not, what exactly is the physical calculation involved? However, in the interest of fairness and accuracy, perhaps the claim of "first RTS to use a physics engine" should be revised to state simply "first RTS to use Havok". Ham Pastrami (talk) 05:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Grammar

Quote from article: "Real-time strategy titles do not involve "turns" like turn-based strategy video or board games (such as chess). Rather, game time progresses in "real time": it is continuous rather than turn-by-turn; and all players may give orders to their troops at any time."

Can someone check the grammar of this sentence? I'm real bad at punctuation. SharkD 03:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Fixed (I think). SharkD 06:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Unclear statement

"However, the switch to full 3D was very gradual and most real-time strategy titles, including the first sequels to Command and Conquer, initially used isometric 3D graphics made by pre-rendered 3D tiles."

So, is C&C 3D, or isn't it? The article sounds like it can't make up its mind. SharkD 03:48, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Pre-rendered 3D is not actual 3D, it uses sprites made from 3D objects and not real time rendering of such objects and it lacks proper perspective - units in the far end of the screen have the same size as units closer to the player's viewpoint, which is not the case in real 3D.83.228.35.28 (talk) 11:27, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Fill in the blank

"The "clickfest" argument is also often voiced alongside a "button babysitting" criticism which pointed out that a great deal of game time, especially in earlier titles, is spent either waiting and watching for the next time a production button could be clicked, or rapidly alternating between different units and buildings, clicking their respective button."

Clicking their respective buttons to do what? Please complete the sentence. SharkD 07:39, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

War games - revisited

Perhaps the important element here is not that RTS invokes military-based challenges, but rather that RTS requires strategic competition between at least two distinct entities. Jav43 22:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

What? SharkD 01:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna have to agree with the what? response here. bob rulz 02:18, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

More than just Herzog

"None of the above titles would be recognizable as real-time strategy games by current standards. However, two later games--Herzog Zwei for the Sega Genesis in 1989 and Battle Master for the Amiga and Atari ST in 1990--are perhaps the earliest examples of games with feature-sets that are recognizable today."

First of all, I don't see how Herzog Zwei is closer to RTS's today than, say, Nether Earth. Nether Earth had a cursor/unit hybrid like a helicopter that had the only purpose of selecting and commanding units. In addition, Nether Earth had a minimap displayed on the main screen, not Herzog Zwei. That first statement claiming "None of the above titles would be recognizable as real-time strategy games by current standards" is absurd and I recommend it to be deleted.

I agree, it's pure Original Research apart from anything else and confuses a genre with the modern perception of a genre. It's like saying on the Flash Gordon entry that "none of these films would be recognised as science fiction today." --Zagrebo 09:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I've been bold and removed it, along with a slight rewrite. It's been bothering me for a while, to be honest. --Zagrebo 09:28, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, I see your point about Nether Earth which also featured factories and resource management before Herzog Zwei. --Zagrebo 09:32, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, Modem Wars (http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/pc/unsung_heroes/sec2_07.html) probably should be mentioned because its interface looks a lot like modern RTSs.... and it was made in 1988. --76.188.148.173 03:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

What in the hell happened?

Okay, I'm trying to figure out just what in the hell happened here. When I edited it and posted my edit, the rest of the history section suddenly disappeared. But it's still showing up when I go to edit it, and I can't get it to appear on the page! WTF happened? bob rulz 15:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, nevermind, I see what I did...after I read through it I didn't close the reference tag...I didn't realize that that could make it all disappear. That makes no sense...but, it's fixed. bob rulz 15:41, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

"Does Not Cite Sources" in Criticism Of Gameplay Section

There are over half a dozen sources cited in this section. If the person who placed the "Does Not Cite Sources" tag on that section could explain which statements are not properly cited, and how they would prefer them to be cited, then perhaps we can clean up this section. 10:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember if I was the one who added it, but I would have done if I had read the section recently.

Firstly, there are statements like 'A third common criticism'. Common? Can we have a source saying it is common? We have opinion such as 'Of course, this does take the gameplay out of the realm of strategic decision-making.' which is simply original research.

The 4th, 5th and 6th criticism para's are entirely unsourced and verging on opinion.

Overall, the section is very poorly sourced, poorly written and isn't NPOV. However, the last time I made my feelings known about this poorly sourced and original research filled article known, I was shouted down by a group of users who don't understand our policies correctly, so I don't hold my breath in getting these things fixed.-Localzuk^(talk) 10:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the section could use a bit of a re-write. I will try to get to it soon. As well, the unsourced points may need to be deleted if a source cannot found. However, the sources that are listed are all valid sources; and while those points may need rewriting, they should not be marked for deletion. 03:33, 18 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.11.163 (talk)

While it is true the section is poorly sourced, it is not true that there aren't any sources at all. I have removed the tag. SharkD 18:18, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I've put back a similar tag that is less critical. SharkD 07:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Source usage?

Source #15 (RPG Codex) has nothing to do with RTS games. Should it really be a source? Furthermore, some of the points cited are wrong, such as "It is easier to keep track of what the enemy is doing since you can see every move as it happens." Not true, there are TB(S) games with "Fog of war". The source itself acknowledges this. 128.54.228.80 19:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The RPG Codex article deals with concepts, such as Turn-based and Real-time play. It compares RPGs with games like chess.

The article is referring to the fact that in TB games you can stop and observe each unit as it completes its turn. In many TB games, the game even shifts focus to each unit to make this easier (so that you don't have to scroll around to find them). In real-time games the player can't allot equal attention to all units; therefore, some actions go unnoticed. Feel free to reword the sentence so that it doesn't lead readers to the same conclusion. Also, I searched the text for "fog of war" and couldn't find any instances of the term being used. SharkD 04:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I've rewritten the section.SharkD 07:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The quote is "If the player is apathetic about the movement of an opponent because they are distant or out of line of sight..." implying that areas beyond the sight range of the unit(s) are obscured in some way. FoW is the best RTS analogy I can think of. 128.54.228.80 08:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, FoW is the correct term. SharkD 08:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect statement

The article states that, "Other gameplay mechanics implied by RTS include resource gathering, base building, technological development, and abstract unit control." This is not correct. Resource gathering, base building and technological development are the mechanics shared with strategic wargames ('abstract unit control' is not defined in the article). RTSs share more in common with tactical wargames when it comes to combat. SharkD 05:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It is correct, they are part of the definition of RTS, there is a "Genre classification debate" section in RTT page on wikipedia, which explains it somewhat and probably should be included in the RTS page as well. 83.228.35.28 (talk) 11:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

transition or emergence of 3D?

think the 2d genre is not dead, so it should be emergence of 3d strategies

tiberian sun player,regeards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.210.245.234 (talk) 17:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

OK. SharkD (talk) 13:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Another criticism

Another common criticism of RTSs is discussed here. The complaint is that RTS focus on killing harvestors as opposed to military tactics. The article also discusses a response to this criticism found in Dawn of War. SharkD 05:20, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

How is that a source, these are video games, any terms that are applied are created by the current-gamers. Not by some article writer. What ur doing is hearsay, its like using wikipedia as a source, or the news as a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.21.227 (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

You appear not to be familiar with Wikipedia's policies on verifiability and in particular reliable sources. An article written by a staff writer at IGN is a high quality source. --Pak21 (talk) 13:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

This is actually a pretty common criticism. And it's verifiable by a reliable source. Every game genre has its critics. Get used to it. 65.95.157.129 (talk) 21:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

List of sources

I notice that there are a bunch of new sources (mostly PDF files) listed at the bottom of the References section. It would be better to turn these into inline references, like the rest of the references—especially in an article which has been criticized for original research as often as this one has been. SharkD 06:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Dune 2 cropped screenshot attack on base.jpg

Image:Dune 2 cropped screenshot attack on base.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Homeworld.jpg

Image:Homeworld.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Some ideas for "Refinement and transition to 3D" and "Specialization and evolution"

I noticed that we mention Total Annihilation for it's use of 3D graphics, but totally miss the more revolutionary or at least unique factor: That resources are infinite, generated over time by buildings.

Additionally we might consider mentioning Supreme Commander for it's unique user interface, in particular using the mouse wheel instead of side scrolling which changes the way the game plays hugely from previous games.

Finally we discuss games that have blended RTS with other genres. However nothing is said about Savage: The Battle for Newerth or it's sequel. Which are certainly notable for being the only games (to my knowledge) to have commercial success in blending RTS and RPG/FPS game play.