Talk:Pablo Casals: Difference between revisions
Content deleted Content added
Infrogmation (talk | contribs) mNo edit summary |
←Redirected page to Discussion: Pau Casals |
||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
#REDIRECT [[Discussion: Pau Casals]] |
|||
{{WikiProject Catalan-speaker}} |
|||
{{WPBiography|living=no|class=B|priority=Mid|musician-work-group=yes|listas=Casals, Pablo}} |
|||
{{PuertoRicoproj|class=B|importance=Mid}} |
|||
After a exhaustive research, I changed the link of the El Vendrell to the current because they are using this. |
|||
I searched the name in a Catalan Encyclopedia, and I find that his birth name was Pau Casals i Defilló. If you don't belive me I can scan the page of that Encyclopedia. [[User:Jacquard2|Jacquard2]] 09:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC) |
|||
Resulta que per que canviïn la pàgina de pablo a Pau, s'ha de demanar formalment. El que cal fer és demanar-ho en massa per tal que ens escoltin. Però, no obstant, hi ha un problema, el bibliotecari que porta el tema ha arguït que no el canvia ja que buscant pel google veu que Pablo té uns resultats de cent i pico mil pàgines mentres que Pau, només en té menys de la meitat de l'altre. [[User:Jacquard2|Jacquard2]] 19:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC) |
|||
I've added back the "Pablo" version of his name - it is very common in English speaking countries, and as we're dealing with an article in English here, it has to be mentioned. In fact, I'm pretty sure that "Pablo" is more common than "Pau" in English, meaning the article really ought to live at [[Pablo Casals]] - I'll leave it for the time being, however. --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]] |
|||
Yes, all the examples I've seen of printed references and labels of his phonograph records for most of his career, both in the USA and Latin America, exclusively refer to him as "Pablo Casals". Pau may have been his real name, but professionally in many countries he was well known as "Pablo". -- [[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 17:45 28 Jun 2003 (UTC) |
|||
I have been reading his live in a Catalan Enciclopedia, and I noticed that his real name was PAU CASALS i DEFILLÓ, not pablo carlos salvador casls i defilló. |
|||
:I've decided to move it here, to "Pablo" (at last). --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]] |
|||
::Camember, your imposition is an abuse! You are disrespectful with Pau Casals, you do not respect the natural and original name of a person, nor you respect her memory, the memory of somebody who struggled for the freedom of the people and received the medal of the peace of the ONU. He spoke to the ONU in the year 1971, where was received like Pau Casals. This man who for the fascist dictatorship (I do not speak about you, camember) of Franco had to run away from her Catalonia and went exile himself, this Spanish dictatorship that so much hatred sowed against the Catalans. I claim Pau Casals for her name, I claim Pau Casals that he composed the hymn of the ONU, I claim Pau Casals that he struggled for the Freedom and the Peace, which never accepted the IMPOSITION. Camember, your imposition is an abuse! |
|||
His name wasn't Pablo but Pau. It's easy as that. I know about his live and I'm sure that this mistake would offend him. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Great Mike|Great Mike]] ([[User talk:Great Mike|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Great Mike|contribs]]) 12:43, 8 August 2006 .</small> |
|||
:The title should be moved back to Pau Casals, because it was his true name, and because it was his wish to be known by that name. I fail to see how there can be an arguent when Pau himself settled the matter. As I see it, this case is analogous to [[Bombay]] redirecting to [[Mumbai]] and others similar (see lenghty discussions, votings and agreed policies). --[[User:RR'|RR']] 23:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC) |
|||
:: The discussion has been going on for years, often emotionally. References would help, for example pointers to writings by Casals himself stating his own wishes about his name. Thank you, -- [[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 00:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC) |
|||
::: Please could you post here his own wishes to be called pablo against pau? |
|||
:::: The Discussion of if it is Pau or Pablo, has finished in the wikipedia française they decided that the birth name is the name that he prefered. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau_Casals --¿No querías caldo? Pues toma tres tazas. |
|||
---------------------------------------------- |
|||
How long did Pablo live in Puerto Rico? -- |
|||
''[[User:AntonioMartin|Antonio 100 percent Boricuaaaaaaaaaaaa!! Martin]]'' |
|||
:From 1956 up to his death in 1973, as far as I know (his move to Puerto Rico is noted in the article under the "Later years" heading). --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]] |
|||
Camembert, the most common name of Pau or Pablo in english is Paul. |
|||
Pau Casals was catalan and very proud of it. If you use the castelian name of paul, pablo, I supose he will prefered if you used the form: (...) also known as Pablo Casals. |
|||
Your name is Camembert nobody calls you cheese cause is the most common name in english. |
|||
------------------------------- |
|||
Is ''Catalan'' now a separate nationality to ''Spanish''? I've noticed that several articles about artists are being amended (by the same person, I think) from Spanish to Catalan Spanish. Is this being overly sensitive? Surely the Catalan part can be included in the main body of the article and not be treated as a separate nationality? Does Catalonia issue separate passports from Spain? Are nationals of Manchester to be referred to as "Mancunian English"? Will Americans from Miami now be called "Floridian Americans" and will we start seeing references to "Québecois Canadian", "Corsican French" "Tuscan Italian" as nationalities? [[User:Orbicle|Orbicle]] 15:32, 15 July 2006 (UTC) |
|||
:Orbicle, Catalonia is a nation since more than 1000 years ago. Now we are administratively under 2 different states that his the kingdom of Spain and the republic of France. On the 11th September of 1714, Catalonia lost his freedom in a historical resistance in Barcelona. How he spoke the ONU Pau Casals: "I am Catalan, Catalonia has had the first parliament of the world". No, we have own passport, it is not allowed us to have it. But we struggle for Catalonia, a millennial nation! --sebas [[User:84.77.198.72|84.77.198.72]] 20:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC) |
|||
:Yes, Orbicle, Catalan is "now" (and has been for centuries) a separate nationality. The issue of passports is irrelevant. A passport is issued by a state. Not all nationalities have states and nobody is claiming that Catalonia is a state. See for example [[Poundmaker]], who is described as Cree in the first sentence, and not "American." In checking this example, I was also surprised to see that the article is under his Cree name, which I have never encountered in any literature, and "Poundmaker" is a redirect. [[User:Carolynparrishfan|Carolynparrishfan]] 13:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC) |
|||
----------------------------- |
|||
Pablo Casals is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name Pablo Casals. |
|||
This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors. |
|||
Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens. |
|||
Thank you! |
|||
-- |
|||
Correction: |
|||
Pablo Casals is an imposition of the dictatorships in Spain, in which prohibited the natural, original and official name PAU Casals. |
|||
This dictatorships has caused that is used at the present time by ignorance of some authors. |
|||
Other authors use it like vindication of the facist dictatorship, the terror and the deprivation of liberties of the free citizens. |
|||
Thank you! |
|||
---------------------------------------------- |
|||
Changed on the legacy Pablo Casals Cello Foundation to the correct name's foundation Pau Casals Foundation [[User:Jacquard2|Jacquard2]] 22:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC) |
|||
He wanted to be named Pau (not Pablo) because Pau was his name in catalan, his language, and specially because PAU in his language means PEACE. I don't understand why english wikipedia are not able to respect something than even spanish wikipedia respects. --[[User:reventlov|reventlov]] |
|||
==Name move?== |
|||
I just reverted a unilateral move of the article from "Pablo" to "Pau". Personally I am fine with either title, but please let us have some discussion and consensus first. A note to those suggesting that "Pablo" is only the imposition of the Franco Fascist dictatorship, that he lived his later life elsewhere-- "Pau" was not illegal in Puerto Rico or other countries where he was still commonly billed as "Pablo". However if someone could please quote Casals' OWN WORDS stating he wished to be known as "Pau", that would probably make a strong case -- [[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 18:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC) |
|||
:Infrogmation, in 1972, Pau Casals and his wife Marta created the Pau Casals Foundation for the purpose of bequeathing to Catalonia the whole legacy the maestro had conserved in the house in Sant Salvador. The people of Catalonia were to be the guardians of that heritage.Which is the name that he puts for the foundation? He is very expensive, Pau Casals Foundation! [http://www.paucasals.org/english/fundacio/quisom.htm The link at this article], in english. [http://www.paucasals.org/ Link to the oficial heritage of Pau Casals, the Pau Casals Fundation], in Catalan, English, Spanish and French. [http://www.bib.ub.es/www1/temes/1exipc.jpg Link to the original letter of Pau Casals, signed by Pau Casals.] Pau Casals was a fighterof the peace. It always liked him to say Peace, Peace and Peace, and he explained that this was the way of his life to the same as that of his name (his name, Pau, means Peace in catalan) -- ''Abat sise'' 13:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC) |
|||
____________________________________________________________________________ |
|||
I don't know if it's possible to quote him asking to be called by his name, maybe he wasn't relly bothered with the name "Pablo"... However, what he said infront of the United Nations will give you a general idea about his point of view: Words of gratitude pronouced by Pau Casals in front of the United Nations Assembly when he was awarded the Medal of Peace on the 24th of October of 1971: |
|||
"This is the greatest honour I have ever received in my life. Peace has always been my greatest concern. Yet in my childhood I learned to love it. My mother—an exceptional, brilliant woman—used to speak to me about it when I was still a child, because in those years there were also a lot of wars. Moreover, I am Catalan. Catalonia had the first democratic Parliament much before than England. And it was in my country where there was a beginning of united nations. At that time—the eleventh Century—they met in Toluges—today in France—to speak about peace, because the Catalonian people of that time were already against war. That is why, the United Nations, which work only for the ideal of peace, are in my hearth, because everything relating to peace goes directly there. |
|||
"I have not played the cello in front of an audience since long years but I think I must do it this time. I am going to play a melody from the Catalonian folklore: The singing of the Birds. Birds, when in the sky, go singing: Peace, peace, peace. And this is a melody that Bach, Beethoven and all great people would have admired and loved. And, in addition, it springs up from the soul of my country: Catalonia." |
|||
As you can see, he claims to be Catalan several times. He also says that Catalonia is his county, not Spain. Because of that we can esaly asume that he would like to be called by the Catalan form of Pablo (Pau). You can also see that he was a peace lover and Pau, in Catalan, means "peace" ("Pablo" doesen't mean nothing in any language). ''(unsigned comment by [[User:Great mike]])'' |
|||
: Note: please sign your discussion comments. (Just put 4 tildes ~ in a row at the end of a discussion comment and your user name and time of comment will be added automatically.) Your statement is poetic, but rather than "asume" we try to go for evidence. Eg, if no statement in his own words can be found, how did he sign his name, if the letters of the first name are legible? How was he billed when performing in nations other than Spain under Franco? Legal documents-- contracts, passport? -- [[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 18:55, 7 October 2006 (UTC) |
|||
:: Legal documents -- contracts, passport. Could the editors post here some documents that credited him as Pablo Casals? |
|||
A letter signed by "Pau" Casals: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exipc.jpg --[[User:reventlov|reventlov]] |
|||
:: First of all, let me apologise for editing the main page without reading the discussion above. It was such a clear thing for me that I couldn't think there would ever be such a discussion. |
|||
:: Let's go to the facts. There are two things being discussed here: |
|||
:::1) Casals Catalan vs Spanish, and |
|||
:::2) Pau vs. Pablo. |
|||
::Let's try to shed some light on these. |
|||
:::1) The first point is clear: Casals was both, Spanish and Catalan. He was born (and lived for many years) in a state called Spain, so he's Spanish. No doubt. However, he was born (and grew up) in a region which some centuries ago was independent from the rest of Spain, with some different traditions and culture: Catalonia. So, because of this, he also was Catalan, no doubt of this either. There's a point: obviously not all Spanish people are Catalan, but also not al Catalan people are Spanish, since the historical Catalonia extended e.g. to the South of France. So, it should always be said that he was Catalan and Spanish. |
|||
:::But being isn't the same as feeling. Did Casals felt more Catalan than Spanish? I haven't read his memories, so I am not an authority on that, but from his UN speech it seems he felt Catalan. The quotes in the Pau Casals Foundation website also suggest that: “This house is the expression and synthesis of my life as a Catalan and an artist”, etc. |
|||
:::2) His name was Pau. I think everybody agrees on this: he signed Pau (jpg above), he called his foundation "Pau Casals", etc. On the other hand, I can accept he was called Pablo by many people, so I understand the "Pablo" appearing in the article. However, I wouldn't say "commonly known as" but "also known as", since I think this would better fit the reality: some of us knew him as Pau, others as Pablo, but we cannot survey the world population to know which of the two forms is more used. |
|||
::Other things I think should be changed are: |
|||
:::- The page title: I think it should be "Pau Casals" (like in the first sentence of the article), and have the "Pablo Casals" article redirect to here. |
|||
:::- The disambiguation page only presents "Pablo", that's really strange for me. I think the disambiguation page should be complete and have both "Pau" and "Pablo". |
|||
:::- The "Pablo Casals Cello Foundation" that appears in the text should be cited as its true name, "Pau Casals Foundation" (I believe the registered one is "Fundació Pau Casals", but they also translate the "Fundació" to "Foundation" at their website). Notice no "Cello" in the name: the foundation runs both cello fellowships and activities and Casals' museum. |
|||
:: Just a final comment: it's funny seing so much discussion in the English page about Pau Casals, when in the Spanish page (where politics and language matters about topics like that could be more passionate and even violent) there's no discussion at all, and everybody agrees on "Catalan" and "Pau".[[User:Ripero|Ripero]] 01:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC) |
|||
Pau Casals signs as Pau, not Pablo (see the jpg above). Pau Casals declares himself Catalan, not Spanish. Catalan and Spanish Wikipedias say "Pau Casals", not "Pablo Casals". Therefore, I think that the most appropiate name for the article is Pau Casals, and a redirection from Pablo to Pau, not the opposite.--[[:ca:Usuari:Xtv|Xtv]] - ([[User talk:Xtv|my talk]]) - ([[:ca:Usuari Discussió:Xtv|que dius que què?]]) 19:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC) |
|||
: I agree. If it's a Catalan name it should be written the Catalan way and "Pablo Casals" to be a redirection page. -- [[User:Magioladitis|Magioladitis]] 23:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC) |
|||
: I've started looking in to this a little bit and am starting to come to a different conclusion based on material I've seen from when he was alive. I recently saw a signed photograph by Casals-- it is clearly signed "Pablo". I can place a copy of this on line for reference if you have any doubt. In the USA there is absolutely no legal restrictions nor presure against Catalan names; he could have called himself "Pau" if he chose. His recordings from when he was alive in the USA and Latin America are listed as "Pablo", and I have read a number of articles and interviews from when he was alive refering to him simply as "Pablo". I am starting to suspect that the campaign to remove any reference to him as "Pablo" is something from after he died, not necessarily going along with anything he insisted on himself. I also note that a google seach with the word "cellist" (to get English language results) shows 162,000 hits for "Pablo Casals" and 11,400 hits for "Pau Casals". I therefore suggest that "Pablo Casals" is the name he is most commonly known by in English. Googling simply "Pau Casals" gets 345,000 hits; while 549,000 for "Pablo Casals", suggesting it is more common even not considering language. I suspect that "Pablo Casals" was the name he commonly used internationally. I am therefore leaning towards leaving it "Pablo" for much the same reason that we have the article on the fellow born Ehrich Weiss at [[Harry Houdini]] or the many other examples where the article is at the name they were most commonly known by professionally rather than their birth name. Respectfully, -- [[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 01:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC) |
|||
: Could you post the link with the photograph in which appears the name Pablo? I saw and it was manipulated with a Photoshop or similar. Then with an exhaustive search, I could see the REAL name written by him. The letter is in that address: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exilar.htm Search by PAU CASALS. ( link: http://www.bib.ub.es/www10/temes/1exipc.jpg ) Inforgmation, are you afraid because his real name wasn't pablo? could you show to us evidences that the name he prefered was pablo? |
|||
PS: The link with (I assume) your photograph http://www.grafologianet.com.ar/Firmas.htm It is clearly manipulated with a computer program. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.61.32.241|81.61.32.241]] ([[User talk:81.61.32.241|talk]]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> |
|||
== PAU was his name. == |
|||
'''Pau''' was his name. Because of the dictatorship, all the first names had to be in Spanish. That means that even if he went to live in Puerto Rico, he still had "Pablo" on his passport. I don't think he could change his name to Catalan in Puerto Rico. He considered himself Catalan, as he said at the United Nations Assembly (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AKlkO3Tt3Kw). I'm sure he would have changed his name to Catalan with the Spanish "democracy". So, that's why I think his name should be '''PAU''', a beautiful name in Catalan that also means "peace". To put his name in Spanish is nonsense. The English Wikipedia talking about a Catalan musician through Spanish: nonsense. This is what we, the Catalans, have to suffer for not being independent and being under the rule of Spain, France and Italy. We live under the shadow of these big countries, and a lot of people don't even understand this! |
|||
Orbicle, what you say is nonsense as well. Go to Corsica and tell a person from there that he/she is French. Then listen to what they tell you. Or a better one, go to Scotland and tell the Scottish they're British. I'm sure you're English or American, or from a big colony which doesn't respect the minority, am I right? You all behave in the same way. You wouldn't think the same if you were from a country which was invaded by a bigger country and ruled by it since then, with all the consequences. |
|||
Anyway, it's always the same thing over and over again. His name was '''PAU'''. If you still put a foreign name to him it means you don't respect him. Marta. |
|||
: Clearly this is a very emotional issue for some folks. Please see [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view]]. Let's stick to the facts. If we have some documentation about him wanting to change his legal name but being prevented from doing so, add a reference. However, removing all mention of "Pablo"from the article is not a matter of "respect"; some might even think it is dishonest censorship to refuse to mention that he was known by that name to millions of fans, he had records issued under that name, appeared at performances under that name, signed autographs with that name. If the name is objectionable; explain with referenced facts; that can go in the article. But please don't expect the world to pretend the name "Pablo Casals" never existed when there is ample doccumentation that it did. Hope this helps, -- [[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 02:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC) |
|||
:: cleary you don't respect each others. First of all, you don't respect the neutral point of view. you are confused by the people that claim that the name was pablo, and you said in 5 february 2007 (comments above) that you found a photograph with the name pablo could you post it? It is that photograph? http://www.grafologianet.com.ar/Firmas.htm it's clearly manipulated with photoshop or similars. Some people are aporting new thing that are focusing on the name was Pau nor the pablo you say, could you demonstrate that the name he prefered was pablo? -- <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.61.32.241|81.61.32.241]] ([[User talk:81.61.32.241|talk]]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> |
|||
::: No, that image has nothing to do with what I was talking about. A signed photo of "Pablo Casals" (as he himself signed it) can be seen by any visitor to the Longe Vue House & Garden, a tourist attraction in New Orleans. Per your request, I shall put it online within the next day or so. However I hardly think such evidence is rare. I could also scan old articles or record labels refering to "Pablo Casals"; such can be found easily in many libraries. Any attempt to pretend he was not called that is silly, and trying to say that the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of people who loved his beautiful music who bought his records which were labeled "Pablo Casals" must have been motivated by disrespect for Casals or support for Fascism is absurd if not worse. -- [[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 12:17, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
|||
[[Image:PabloCasals1963Signed.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Photograph singed "Pablo Casals"]] Here you go. Click for full size. Hope this helps. -- [[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 13:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC) |
|||
:::: As you said, this photograph is (was) (as I could saw when it was posted) a "tourist attraction". Would you like a photograph signed as PAU CASALS? I could find here in Catalonia a lot, maybe a thousand more than your's one photograph. --81.61.33.92 <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/81.61.33.92|81.61.33.92]] ([[User talk:81.61.33.92|talk]]) 22:00, 1 September 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
|||
This image does not contibute to this discussion, it is a simply image, a photo like the letter signed as PAU CASALS. |
|||
PS: Could you post the messages that someone posted before? You don't respect each others. |
|||
PS2: The link with the speech at the United Nations (He says from his lips that he was a Catalan http://youtube.com/watch?v=uD43EKR4Qc4 (this is with subtitles) http://youtube.com/watch?v=e4c0nW5WSMI (this is dubbed in catalan) in the videos the words of the Mr. Casals are both in english so you, (a folk american new orleans) don't must have some troubles to understand him; Ah! did you found something if you search for pablo casals united nations ? and if you search for pau casals united nations? <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/213.231.98.136|213.231.98.136]] ([[User talk:213.231.98.136|talk]]) {{{2|}}}</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> |
|||
: Whether it "contributes to this discussion" or not, the anon at 81.61.32.241 specifically requested it. Despite the user's insults, I granted the request. That anon has since shown themselves to be nothing but a vandal who cares nothing for Casals but only for deliberate insults and disruption, and so has been blocked. As to your question, I know of no one here who have challenged that Casals was Catalan. Cheers, -- |
|||
[[User:Infrogmation|Infrogmation]] 03:07, 24 July 2007 (UTC) |
|||
::: Please Infrogmation I'm Glad you show me the insults that you are accusing me to say. Pleeease show them to all of us. Pleease restore the lasts comments on this board, if you restore them you are possibiliting other people to judge if I insulted you, or if I insulted anyone. And about the photo of you are proud of, clearly shows to the visitors an ERROR. The SURNAME was CASALS not the surname they show CASAL. --Toca'm els collons! |
|||
==Style and Musicianship== |
|||
Someone with some expertise and knowledge about Cello performance really ought to initiate a section on Casals's distinctive playing style. After all, this is what made him great. I'm a pianist, and I don't feel qualified even to start such a section, but an article on arguably the greatest cellist of the twentieth century ought to explicate what it was that accounted for his prominence. [[Special:Contributions/66.108.4.183|66.108.4.183]] ([[User talk:66.108.4.183|talk]]) 00:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC) Allen Roth |
|||
Revision as of 23:05, 4 May 2008
Redirect to: