User talk:Valoem/Involuntary celibacy: Difference between revisions
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==Incel or not?== |
==Incel or not?== |
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I have a friend that although she is very desirable, and although she desires a relationship, she can't. As she says, between the men who like and approach her, she can't find one that fits, and feels very lonely and depressed. Does this type of person classify as an incel? [[User:Pictureuploader|Pictureuploader]] 11:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC) |
I have a friend that although she is very desirable, and although she desires a relationship, she can't. As she says, between the men who like and approach her, she can't find one that fits, and feels very lonely and depressed. Does this type of person classify as an incel? [[User:Pictureuploader|Pictureuploader]] 11:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC) |
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- Interesting one. From what I know of my own case and other incels, they are unable to have a relationship because they are - or feel they are - unattractive. You say this woman is attractive, but is that how she sees herself? Supposedly even attractive people often don't feel it (though I've always wondered about that. Surely Halle Berry MUST realise how attractive she is? Modesty can only go so far when half the world is salivating over you!) |
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If the woman feels nobody desires her, then I would definitely classify her as incel. If she knows she could have a relationship but just hasn't met "Mr Right" yet, I'm not really sure but I'd be tempted to say she was just being picky. |
Revision as of 16:03, 15 August 2005
"Incel is not recognised by most experts in psychology". What does this mean?
Does it mean that, if you asked a psychologist, s/he'd say (1), that there are no people who are involuntarily celibate?
Does it mean only that psychologists in general hold (2), that there is no such single identifiable phenomenon, e.g. a syndrome comprising several symptoms occurring together; instead, it is only as an epiphenomenon of some other psychological state or process - e.g. Asperger's, social phobia, avoidant personality disorder?
There definitely are some who do believe (1), that there are no involuntary celibates. Obviously some of them may be unintelligent but sexually successful people who know only other sexually successful people and can't imagine people who are not sexually successful.
More intelligent people are more likely to think that there are indeed people who would like to have sex with someone and "can’t", but that this "can’t" is compromised. They "can’t" only because (e.g.) they insist on sex only with a “one and only” deeply desired partner; or they are married to a spouse who refuses sex and have tenets - e.g. desire to maintain a stable marriage for children's sake, Catholic rejection of the possibility of divorce – that forbid them to either end the marriage or to seek sexual relations outside it; or they are too “squeamish” to seek sex with a prostitute. In short, their “can’t” reduces in only a few steps to a “won’t” – the involuntary celibacy is really voluntary.
However, acquaintance with people who seem sexually repulsive either physically or through inability to perform the social preludes to sex, or knowledge of how difficult may be the legal circumstances surrounding the person who wants sex, must give the lie to this “compromised-involuntariness” idea. Perhaps the person is watched at all times by her/his existing “inactive sexual” partner’s associates, or (in a country requiring strict Islamic observances) by a morals police, and even the beginning of advances to a potential new sexual partner would be reported to the existing partner or to the police with heavy legal consequences. Some strong (perhaps Existentialist) concepts of what constitutes choice would have to categorize refusal to rape as voluntary celibacy!
So clearly there are people who don’t have sex but want to, eliminating the proposition implicit in interpretation (1). Is the proposition implicit in interpretation (2) viable, that there is no single condition or syndrome best described under the heading “involuntary celibacy”?
-I don't know about psychologists because I've never met one, but I know from personal experience that an awful lot of people simply refuse to believe that there is such a thing as an incel. As you say, it rather hinges on how far you go with the "involuntary" part. Personally I refuse to rape anybody, so am I remaining celibate voluntarily? Most people go along with my declining to rape. But I also refuse to hire a prostitute (assuming one would let me. I'm very undesirable, and I imagine even professionals have SOME standards). In my mind this doesn't count against incel status because sex with a prostitute isn't "real" sex; it's more akin to masturbation. (For that matter, are you truly celibate if you masturbate?)
-I'm glad that at long last, there's some rejoinder to the item that I wrote above. I, too, have been given the impression that even a prostitute would refuse my custom, though I regard prostitution as so oppressive to its practitioners that I have never made the experiment. I'm also in an "inactive marriage", so I'd have strong scruples about any extra-marital sexual act being adultery. (All this is the kind of reason that makes me study the "compromised involuntariness" concept.)
Surely we need to get this article upgraded into a proper treatment that explores at least some of the ground covered in Alana Potts' on-line Incelsite. By the way, seeing many very ugly or socially inept men in relationships with women who seemed in no way to feel themselves degraded by them is another source of interest - after initially feeling "I must be even worse than they", I have concluded "my involuntary celibacy must be due to something subtler". That's surely the case with you and nearly all but the most extreme cases of physical or social unattractiveness, these matters being very subjective and therefore encompassing many surprises.
Incel or not?
I have a friend that although she is very desirable, and although she desires a relationship, she can't. As she says, between the men who like and approach her, she can't find one that fits, and feels very lonely and depressed. Does this type of person classify as an incel? Pictureuploader 11:15, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
- Interesting one. From what I know of my own case and other incels, they are unable to have a relationship because they are - or feel they are - unattractive. You say this woman is attractive, but is that how she sees herself? Supposedly even attractive people often don't feel it (though I've always wondered about that. Surely Halle Berry MUST realise how attractive she is? Modesty can only go so far when half the world is salivating over you!)
If the woman feels nobody desires her, then I would definitely classify her as incel. If she knows she could have a relationship but just hasn't met "Mr Right" yet, I'm not really sure but I'd be tempted to say she was just being picky.