User talk:Stephen M. Birmingham: Difference between revisions
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==Spion Kop== |
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This [http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,1563,413983,00.html Guardian article] from 2000 is a pretty good neutral assertion that Woolwich Arsenal's Manor Ground was the first to have a Kop. My copy of the ''Official History of Arsenal'' doesn't mention it, but it only covers the period 1900-13 in a couple of pages and is quite short on detail for that era. I've added the claim back in with a suitable reference. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 22:42, 8 May 2006 (UTC) |
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:Thanks Qwghlm. The Guardian page is not entirely correct. "<i>Spioen</i> means 'spy' or 'look-out' and <i>kop</i> means 'hill' or 'outcropping'." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Spion_Kop] "Coined by the Dutch settlers for the commanding views it afforded." [http://www.ciao.co.uk/Liverpool__Review_5049279] |
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:The British soldiers that battled the Boers consisted of the Second Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, the Second Battalion of the Royal Lancaster Regiment and the First Battalion of the South Lancashire Regiment; a great many from Liverpool, which at that time was an established part of South Lancashire. |
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:The connection is unmistakable and well documented with copious amounts of verifiable evidence. Source material for the Manor Ground would be nice, but it isn't provided anywhere to the best of my knowledge. All we have is a lone assertion that is reproduced somewhat disparagingly ("slipping around in rivers of their own urine ... a legend was born"). |
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:I have contacted The Guardian in the hope of ascertaining more information. Ste B 03:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC) |
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::With Woolwich being a military town at the time, it is likely a good deal of soldiers who fought in the Boer War would have attended matches at Manor Ground as well. If you want another source, then this official report by [http://www.islington.gov.uk/DownloadableDocuments/Environment/Pdf/highburyconservationplan_2005.pdf Islington Council] (PDF) repeats the same claim, in paragraph 3.1.7. Unless you can supply any firm evidence contradicting it (not even the official Liverpool FC site claims Anfield's Kop was the first), then it should stay. [[User:Qwghlm|Qwghlm]] 07:40, 9 May 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Qwghlm, I examined your second source and on 9th May contacted Purcell Miller Tritton and Partners, asking what their original source material is. Brian Anderson was kind enough to send me this reply: |
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:::"Thank you for your recent enquiry regarding a reference in the Draft Conservation Plan for Highbury Stadium, in which you have asked for the source of the reference for the earth terrace at the Manor Road ground being "named after Spion Kop". I regret the reference is not stated so I cannot confirm the source, though it will have been obtained from at least one of the documents referred to in the Bibliography. I am sorry I cannot be more helpful. I should add that our text refers to the name being a nickname by some of the then supporters, which suggests that it was not formally adopted. It is therefore not strictly correct to say that the terrace was named after Spion Kop." |
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:::On 12th May I contacted noted author Simon Inglis (<i>Football Grounds of Britain</i> etc). He told me that he is often asked many football related questions, and that he is generally a very busy man, but he would get back to me when he had some free time. That was last month. Yesterday I pressed him for a response, and he replied to me a short time ago, but asked that I not quote verbatim his answer, which comes in part from his published work, <i>The Football Grounds of England and Wales</i> (Collins Willow 1982) and <i>Engineering Archie - Archibald Leitch, Football Ground Designer</i> (English Heritage 2006). |
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:::Simon says the earliest reference comes in the year 1904 when a local newspaper likened the refurbished Manor Ground terrace to that of Spion Kop. This reference predates the printed work of Birmingham journalist Ernest Edwards, who in 1906 named the refurbished Anfield terrace Spion Kop. |
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:::And so it seems you are largely correct. The earliest reference to a football terrace as Spion Kop can indeed be attributed to Woolwich Arsenal, where it was likened. However it should also be noted that this name was never formally adopted, unlike at Anfield, where later it was. Ste B 00:06, 24 June 2006 (UTC) |
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==Edit warring== |
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Please do not edit/revert war at [[You'll Never Walk Alone (song)]]. Should you continue, you will face a block. [[User:NSLE|NSL]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">E]]</font> <sub>([[User_talk:NSLE|T]]+[[Special:Contributions/NSLE|C]])</sub> at 00:43 [[Coordinated Universal Time|UTC]] <small>([[2006-05-25]])</small> |
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:Then what do you suggest I do when the same user persists in passing off his own unsupported opinion as fact? Ste B 02:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC) |
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::I've responded at the YNWA talk page. I've also made it a point to direct my comments at both of you - [[WP:CIV]] and [[WP:CITE]] and [[WP:NOR]] the most important here - both sides of the coin. [[User:NSLE|NSL]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">E]]</font> <sub>([[User_talk:NSLE|T]]+[[Special:Contributions/NSLE|C]])</sub> at 02:11 [[Coordinated Universal Time|UTC]] <small>([[2006-05-25]])</small> |
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All I'm saying is that Celtic's contribution needs to be acknowledged...you seem intent on stating that the entire world is copying lfc. This is not the case. The Bhoys have been singing the same song for basically the seem period however you lump them in with teams from Australia & Japan. There's no point me trying to correct your bias 'cause you'll just revert it again. |
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:Royal, you'll need to read [[WP:CITE]] and [[WP:NOR]] again, as directed above, as your claims right now have no sources. [[User:NSLE|NSL]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">E]]</font> <sub>([[User_talk:NSLE|T]]+[[Special:Contributions/NSLE|C]])</sub> at 08:34 [[Coordinated Universal Time|UTC]] <small>([[2006-05-25]])</small> |
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Revision as of 14:21, 24 May 2008
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