Talk:Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed change in focus of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on a separate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Naming conventions

I edited the article according to the naming conventions, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), in particular point 3:

3. The contents (this applies to all articles using the name in question): The same name as in title should be used consistently throughout the article. Exceptions are allowed only if there is a widely accepted historic English name for a specific historical context. In cases when a widely accepted historic English name is used, it should be followed by the modern English name in parentheses on the first occurrence of the name in applicable sections of the article in the format: "historical name (modern name)." This resembles linking; it should not be done to the detriment of style. On the other hand, it is probably better to do too often than too rarely. If more than one historic name is applicable for a given historical context, the other names should be added after the modern English name, i.e.: "historical name (English name, other historical names)". In this case, the title of the article is Province of Bolzano-Bozen.--Supparluca 08:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I am again reverting your changes-based on your own discussion above.

1. The same name as in title should be used consistently throughout the article.

• The article does so, the title of the article is Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft, which in English comes out as South Tyrolean Scout Association.

1. if there is a widely accepted historic English name for a specific historical context

• In this case, there is a widely accepted historic English name for a specific historical context

Prior to you getting here, nowhere in the article does it reference the Province of Bolzano-Bozen, it references the South Tyrol region. You cannot make the name translate to what you wish it to say when it does not. Chris (talk) 09:14, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand. With "region" do you mean the region called here Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol? (The province of Bolzano -that you call "South Tyrol" and that this wikipedia calls "Province of Bolzano-Bozen"- is part of the region Trentino-Alto Adige). According to the naming conventions, we should use "Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft" when referring to this association, because that is the title of this article, and not South Tyrolean Scout Association. Instead, when you write about "South Tyrol", you should use "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" according to the naming conventions because that is the title of that article. And furthermore, this article doesn't talk about historical events, this association is currently active (and was founded in 1973, not in the 19th century).--Supparluca 10:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

But the people in Meran, in Sterzing, in Dorf Tirol, in Bruneck all say we live in South Tyrol and we are Tyroleans/Südtiroler. You want to see Province of Bolzano-Bozen and some other Italians, too. But South Tyrol stays South Tyrol. There is the Südtiroler Schützenbund, the Südtiroler Volkspartei, the soccer club FC Südtirol, there is the Südtiroler Landtag... And the majority in South Tyrol are the German Speaking Tyroleans.Also the villages have two names (i.e. Sterzing/Vipiteno). I am every year in South Tyrol and I know many people from there and also from the Scout Association. And by the way I also know Italian speaking people from Bolzano-Bozen which say we are Südtirolesi and from South Tyrol. And there is also the Europe Region "Tyrol" consisting of Tyrol(North and East), South Tyrol and Trentino.-Phips (talk) 17:18, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Phips. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:31, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand your angry replies, I don't have prejudices against you, I think this is the first time I see you. I respect your opinion, but do you have valid arguments against my corrections? I just want to apply the naming conventions, regardless of your and my opinion.--Supparluca 18:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Supparluca, no one of these replies above is angry; they are explaining, as I did, why the text must stay as it is, and why it is totally in compliance with the naming conventions you mentioned. I am surprised you would see anger in any of that. If you need help with English, I will patiently walk you through it until you do understand. Perhaps there is something you are not understanding. The convention and the way it is applied here are both perfectly clear to native English-speakers. I do not want you to be angry yourself, I believe your intentions are good, you simply cannot apply them here. In friendship, Chris (talk) 19:51, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I misinterpreted the tone of these sentences: "You cannot make the name translate to what you wish it to say when it does not" and "You want to see Province of Bolzano-Bozen and some other Italians, too", but that's not important. I repeat: in the article there are various references to the province of Bolzano, for example: "The association owns two campsites in South Tyrol". The title of the article that talks about "South Tyrol" is "Province of Bolzano-Bozen"; point 3 of the naming conventions says that "The same name as in title should be used consistently throughout the article (this applies to all articles using the name in question)". In my opinion, this means that that sentence should be modified in this way: "The association owns two campsites in the province of Bolzano-Bozen". This convention seems very clear to me.--Supparluca 20:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I think I understand where you are going with this, and thank you for explaining. You believe the convention is speaking about the article title of one of the component subjects, that is to say, [[South Tyrol]] redirects to [[Province of Bolzano-Bozen]]. That is true. However, the convention has to do with the name of this article, not its component parts, and this article clearly has the toponym Südtiroler, having to do with South Tyrol, whether or not a different name is used for the land area. A German-speaking organization using the German name gets translated directly into English from the German. In addition, there is also [[Category:South Tyrol]], so Wikipedia also accepts the existence and use of the German name as fact. I believe you to have good intentions, therefore I propose:

1. changing the sentence to read "The association owns two campsites in the Italian Province of Bolzano-Bozen, which is coterminous with the historic region of South Tyrol."
2. in addition, if you can supply the name of the Scout organization in the Italian language, as well as the source you used to determine the name used, it should also be in the article.

Thanks for explaining your position. Chris (talk) 20:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

As German is one of the official languages of the province, there is no need for an Italian name - the associations does not have one. All Italian version of the associations name are inofficial translations. --jergen (talk) 20:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

In South Tyrol are 3 official languages, there is German, Ladinisch and Italian. The official website of the Südtiroler Landtag (in German) see Südtirol in German as South Tyrol. The websites of the Tourism agencies also use South Tyrol in English Example 1Example 2 Example 3.There is the the brand Südtirol/Alto Adige strongly supported by the regional goverment Dachmarke Südtirol. So Südtirol is in German a term used by tourism and official bodies. South Tyrol is used by tourism agencies and associations. So why should I on Wikipedia use Province of Bolzano-Bozen which comes from the official Italian name, why I am not allowed to use a correct English word and the English term used by the people there by the themselves and comes from the official German term? German and Italian are official languages in South Tyrol. So there musat be the two oppurtunities to use the terms comming from the official languages. And on the green scarfs for the delegation of the Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft is written Südtirol not Province of Bolzano. By the way most Italian names in South Tyrol are inventions of Ettore Tolomei from the 20th century. And you act like one of this Italian nationalists, who want erase the German names, the traditional customs and the people should become nice Italians. We hoped this is over after 1972 and 1992. I hope I´ve a wrong picture of you. There is no Italian name of the Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft and there is also no official Italian name of the Südtiroler Schützenbund. Thanks to Chris and jergen-Phips (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This is an English encyclopedia, we don't do politics.--Supparluca 21:30, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Glad you agree. We can now close this issue. Chris (talk) 21:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano-Bozen? Where is that in "Südtiroler Pfadfinderschaft"? Case closed. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:50, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on a separate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this section.

attempted a fix

I revisited this in an attempt to properly update wikilinks and also have the article be factually correct. The province is named Bolzano/Bozen. The locals will also call this area Alto Adige or South Tyrol (added that). I corrected the bit about Bolzano/Bozen being part of the 'historical' South Tyrol. There was never such a thing, South Tyrol is a word used recently as a political concept. This area was in fact part of the southern (below the alpine water divide, and in the Mediterranean basin) historical County of Tyrol, split with the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. "Southern" Tyrolers were the citizens of what is now Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol -- and then some. Hope this is sufficient of an explanation; open to any discussions feedback on the edits. regards, Icsunonove (talk) 02:30, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Reverted, since Bozen-Bolzano exist only within Wikipedia. The association is German language based, so the article should use the German terms. --jergen (talk) 17:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Come on now, that is absolute nonsense; the term Province of Bolzano-Bozen is used in Encyclopedia Brittanica; is that not outside of Wikipedia? Please don't just pull grand statements like that out of the air. The term Province of Bolzano/Bozen is used on the provincial website's main English webpage.[1] There was a lot of work put into the Province of Bolzano-Bozen page that discusses the various naming used; have you bothered to read that? Most importantly, this Wikipedia is English-based, so we use English terms, not German terms (regardless of the context). The page on Germany doesn't list all the major German towns in German, now does it? For example, I see you even made the link to Bolzano say Bozen, but we simply say Bolzano in English. Just because the scouting troop is German, doesn't mean we suddenly translate everything to German or to a particular German point of view. Do you understand? Now lets discuss this without an edit war, sound good? :) Icsunonove (talk) 23:06, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Jergen, he's got you there, a simple Google search shows Province of Bolzano-Bozen is NOT used only on wikipedia and it clearly is used on their own site. He also has a point we don't translate everything into the local language. For example, Köln is in Cologne, München is in Munich, etc. Let's settle this calmly. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

• Right, I even took care to put Bolzano (Bozen) and not just Bolzano. I think it is valid to add a German flavor to this article given the context, but we can't just sidestep English usage -- or for some reason have an out right push for only German (and nixing the Italian). The province this group is located in is the province of Bolzano and/or Bozen. Please take a look at the page Province of Bolzano-Bozen to see a bit of the history of why different names are used in this multilingual province. Saying the region is historically "South Tyrol" is not correct as well. Going back a couple centuries and this was but a part of a large area compromising the old County of Tyrol. Icsunonove (talk) 23:25, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not happy about you unilateral changes made without any discussion. As indicated by the archived discussion above (and as well the section deleted by Icsunonove [2]), this is a contentious issue and changes should not be made without discussion.

Province of Bolzano-Bozen clearly states that common English usage is either South Tyrole or Alto Adige and that Province of Bolzano-Bozen is a construct to avoid conflicts with little use outside encyclopedias. It even suggests that South Tyrole is slightly more used than Alto Adige. --jergen (talk) 08:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That article suggests no such thing, and please do not propagate this so-called contentious issue to other pages. I corrected and updated links per Wikipedia policy; that requires discussion? That said, indeed, please explain what edits you have issue with on this page and lets discuss them. The scout troop is located in the province of Bolzano-Bozen, or is it not? There is text now that explains the province is also referred to as Alto Adige or Südtirol/South Tyrol. So, what specific information do you feel the article is now lacking? Icsunonove (talk) 17:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

• Follow up, you are obviously pushing a rather odd German-POV on here. I saw you even took the link to Bolzano and changed it to Bozen (Bolzano). This is NOT German Wikipedia Jergen. There are other people on this planet with other points of view. :) For example, this edit is just plain wrong [3]. You noted "consistent style in naming locations". Jergen, we use ENGLISH, that is the consistent style. :P You even reverted the correction of the Italian scout page to to English Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy. The Italian usage of Associazione Guide e Scout Cattolici Italiani is noted on that page. I just don't get it... Icsunonove (talk) 04:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

As long as you are reverting without checking functions in the infobox or text style, there is no need to discuss anything.

• Plese give a link to the manual of style that requests that cities in South tyrole must be named with the Italian version of the city's name first. Both forms are official used.
• Please give also a source for calling the association "simply SP" - this is solely an abbreviation.
• Please give a source for your changes in the section on the program. Standard English uses "ages" when referring to a age span.
• Please give a source for "Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy" as official translation of "Associazione Guide e Scouts Cattolici Italiani", see also Talk:Association of Catholic Guides and Scouts of Italy, where you can clearly see, that this English translation is non-official. --jergen (talk) 08:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Here: "3. The contents (this applies to all articles using the name in question): The same name as in the title should be used consistently throughout the article."

In this case: "Bolzano", "Merano" and "Brixen" (and also "Province of Bolzano-Bozen") without adding "(Bozen)", "(Meran)" and "(Bressanone)" (and also without "Alto Adige" or "South Tyrol", but in this case it could be added to be clearer).--Supparluca 07:39, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

That means: When writing an article on eg "Rome" it should be "Rome" throughout this whole article; but it does not say that you can not write "Roma" or "Rom" in an other article when linking to the correct article.

SO this rule does not answer my question. --jergen (talk) 14:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It says "this applies to all articles using the name in question". So, if you write that Rome was the capital of the Roman Empire in this article, you should use the name Rome.--Supparluca 08:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)