Talk:Society of Saint Pius X

• added another example of a personal prelature - Opus Dei founded by Blessed Monsignor Jose Maria Escriva de Balaguer

--- On October 6, 2004, Trc accuses JASpencer of lacking the theological knowledge to determine when someone is in communion with Rome. Trc himself does of course have that knowledge. He has it superabundantly. He even knows better than Rome itself who is in communion with Rome, including whether in 1988 Lefebvre was excommunicated or in communion with Rome.

In Communion?

Is SSPX in communion with Rome?

I am greatly in sympathy with a lot of their criticisms of the post Vatican II order, so for me this is a grave matter.

According to the Holy See:

3. In itself, this act (the 1988 consecration) was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.(3) In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.(4)

In para 5:

c) In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, (Society of St. Pius X) that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of ceasing their support in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that formal adherence to the schism is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church's law.(8)

References are:

(3) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 751.

(4) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1382.

(8) Cf. Code of Canon Law, can. 1364.

I propose that we recategorise this page from Category:Roman Catholic Church to Category:Catholics not in Communion with Rome as a purely factual matter. This is not intended to be a comment on the theological issues at stake. Does Rome (that is the Pope and the institutions of the Catholic church) regard SSPX to be in communion? The quotes above are, in my mind, conclusive.

Unless someone objects I will recategorise early next week (18 April 2005 on). If someone does object I would have no problem going to arbitration.

JASpencer 17:41, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we must distinguish between the Society/Fraternity and the members. Archbishop Lefebvre and the bishops he consecrated were/are certainly out of communion with Rome. Some/many/most of the members are also out of communion. Others are merely disobedient. The schismatic ideas of others may not reach of point of outright schism. So I do not think the Society as such can be declared to be out of communion.

Lima 17:52, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough about the members, but the article is about the Society of St Pius X and so presumably about the institution, and not the members. JASpencer 15:05, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've procrastinated. I've given the Society its own category and put it under the main Catholic category, for now. It was about time SSPX got its own category. JASpencer 12:54, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please can all further discussion on the question of whether it should be in the main Catholic category or the our of communion category be directed to the talk page for the SSPX category? JASpencer 12:19, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

March 19, 2005 edits

With regard to:

"The SSPX considers itself faithful to the Catholic Church and all its infallible teachings, while rejecting some teachings of the Second Vatican Council; and it acknowledges Pope John Paul II as Pope. The four SSPX bishops do not claim ordinary jurisdiction over those who receive Sacraments from SSPX priests and bishops. An appeal is made to extraordinary circumstances in regard to the Sacraments of Penance and Matrimony, for whose validity jurisdiction is normally required. Thus, a form of jurisdiction is in practice exercised, on grounds of necessity, not only for these sacraments but also for marriage annulments and dispensations. [8]"

I changed the hyperlink from a sspx-schism.com to an sspx.org site because the above paragraph deals with how the SSPX reasons and therefore it is appropriate for an SSPX site to be cited.

The article makes it clear that "Though it [the Roman Catholic Church] considers the 1988 consecrations to have been a schismatic act, the Roman Catholic Church does not view SSPX as constituting a schismatic Church." Possibly this is taken from Cardinal Cassidy's earlier statements. Therefore if the SSPX is not a schismatic Church then it should not be classified as "not in communion with Rome".

disamb Dominican

Could someone please disambiguate which Dominican Fr. Philippe is?

Sedevecantism

Hi,

Even if the Society of St. Pius X doesn't admit it, it seems obvious that it is almost Sedevacantist. Shall we say something about it ? Moreover, after Ecclesia Dei, part of the Traditionalist (in France mainly, I think), came back to the Church of Rome, with the creation of the Society of St Peter (in French, Fraternité Saint Pierre), that is traditionalist but linked to Rome and not shismatic. Revas 21:47 18/04/05

Point (1) - SSPX may or may not be in schism, but they are not sedevacantist. Surely a crucial part of being sedevacantist is to openly say (or admit) that you believe that the throne of Peter is vacant. SSPX definately do not say that. You can be out of communion without admitting it as communion involves both sides but I find it hard to see how you can be a sedevacantist without saying so openly. JASpencer 12:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Point (2) I'm not sure about the later part, is it to do with including Fraternity of St. Peter in the Category for SSPX? I think that's valid as it's certainly a part of the SSPX "story". JASpencer 12:14, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that the Society is in no way, shape, or form sedevecantist; it condemns sedevecantists and Archbishop Lefebvre at one point expelled several sedevecantist priests from the Society.

Validity of Novus Ordae

Does anyone who follows the ins and outs of SSPX closer than I do know whether they have rejected the validity of the New Order Mass since Lefeberve died? This link ( [1] ) seems to suggest that they have. JASpencer 13:09, 19 August 2005 (UTC).

Daily Telegraph reference

There is a short paragraph in the Daily Telegraph about negotiations between Bernard Fellay and Pope Benedict XVI on a reconciliation.

Anone care to investigate further?

Jackiespeel 16:53, 30 August 2005 (UTC)