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Abongo Obama

This is yet another distant relative of Barack Obama for whom an article has been created. His only notability is that he is (very rarely) mentioned in articles about Obama and has no inherent notability. As has been demonstrated many times on previously deleted articles such as Malia Obama and Family of Barack Obama, notability is not inherited. All of the prior arguments are as applicable here. Obama's coffee mug is often mentioned in profiles of him, but we don't need to start an article called Coffee mug of Barack Obama. Loonymonkey (talk) 03:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A half brother is hardly a "distant" relative. Both Barack and Abongo/Roy are sons of the same man. On what planet does that make them "distantly" related? By the way, Roy was his name much of his life.--Utahredrock (talk) 16:16, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Thinboy00 @188, i.e. 03:30, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment No one click on that last redlink! Thinboy00 @188, i.e. 03:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The Basic Criteria of WP:BIO says "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published[3] secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject." Here is your secondary source material:

ABONGO (ROY) OBAMA: 'Certainly the older brother'

September 9, 2007

BY SCOTT FORNEK Political Editor

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/familytree/545461,BSX-News-wotreex09.stng

Most people would consider the Chicago Sun-Times to be "reliable, intellectually independent,[4] and independent of the subject." Here are two more refernces:

Obama's Church, editorial, Investor's Business Daily January 15, 2008. (Asserts that AO is a "radical muslim", but without attribution.)

Start the scrutiny, editorial by Michael Coren, Toronto Sun, January 26, 2008. Points out that AO is "still" a muslim, but does not make "radical muslim" assertion.

I'd say this citation (along with association to the extremely notable Obama family) is more than sufficient to establish notability. Also, he's getting smeared (or subject to speculation, depending on your point of view) in the right-wing press/blogosphere as being a radical muslim militant, trained in the Soviet Union, etc. I personally highly doubt that any of these charges will hold merit, but references to these speculations are starting to find their way into mainstream news accounts, whether you like it or not. Yellow Rain (talk) 03:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As the creator of the article, it is understandable that you would want to keep it. However, the article you cite is from a series called "Obama Family Tree." It is a profile of Barack Obama, and once again, notability is not inherited. As for the accusations, I'm not sure what you're speaking of, but as of yet no reliable sources have been provided which show that they have "found their way into the mainstream news."--Loonymonkey (talk) 03:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your interest. I've just provided two mainstream references, above. Yellow Rain (talk) 03:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, as to "notability is not inherited", unfortunately he's become notable due to speculations of his radical muslim sympathies/affiliations. Again I don't believe these speculations will ultimatly hold water – but they are definitely being made, are relevant to the campaign (whether true or not), and as just established, are being carried and propogated by mainstream sources. Yellow Rain (talk) 03:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, no. (Even if true) some random guy in Kenya embracing Islam isn't notable. The only notability comes from the fact that he is a distant relative of Barack Obama. --Loonymonkey (talk) 03:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any student of history will know that Abongo is very far from being "some random guy." He happens to be a random guy that Barack Obama has traveled on numerous occassions to see, first in D.C., later in Kenya. The purposes of Barack Junior's Kenyan trips were not solely to see Abongo (formerly Roy) but as a close Obama family member he was one of the reasons. He was also at Obama's wedding as his brother (I don't know if he was in the wedding party).--Utahredrock (talk) 01:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that just reinforces the point that whatever slight notability he has is entirely due to his association with Barack Obama. --Loonymonkey (talk) 17:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I agree that this is a keeper. Given the importance of Barack Obama, a separate item for his brother is entirely called for. There's a separate item on Billy Carter, for example, which would not be there but for his brother Jimmy. Billybud989

Not the same thing at all. Billy Carter was frequently in the mainstream news in the 1970s, and a lot is known about him. He was significant enough to enter the pop culture of the time, in comedy routines, etc., and his name was well-known to the man on the street. Yes, if he had not been Jimmy's brother, he wouldn't have been notable - but he made news on his own, including his connection to Libya which was the subject of a Senate investigation. Find independent, non-partisan, mainstream media sites that have written pieces like this about Abongo Obama. The Fornek piece is just an expansion of the family tree they published - it does not demonstrate notability. Tvoz/talk 18:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete-- I might support a merge with Barack Obama, because AND only because the fact that this Obama is an Islamic convert and is apparently rather radical might be one of the reasons some people seem to think B. Obama is secretly a White-Hating Muslim Terrorist™. In any case, as already mentioned, this guy just isn't notable enough to support his own article! This might even be a case of no one gives a youknowwhat. L'Aquatique[review] 06:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 14:25, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, family relationship is not ground for notability. --Soman (talk) 22:44, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral; Barack's ethnicity is paritally black; his father is from Kenya-66 years old by 2008; Barack will turn 47 in August 2008; Sarah Barack's grandmother-fathers side is 86 years old. His fathers side is all from Kenya; fully black. Barack's mom is from Europe; totally white. We have enough citations for this. Abongo is perhaps Barack's uncle.--Freewayguy ^{Msg USC} 16:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The father of Abongo (formerly Roy) and his half-brother Obama Jr. (the senator/candidate) is not 66. He died at the age of 46 in 1982. Regards,--Utahredrock (talk) 01:19, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Why is he notable? Relative of Barack Obama is not a significant enough reason, particularly not a half-relative, unless the individual has had a close/influencing relationship. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above comment is wildly innapropriate. To off-handedly refer to a half-brother as a "half-relative" dennigrates the close family tie between Barack Jr. and his "half" brother Roy/Abongo. Almost any objective observer who cares about family would agree that a half-sibling is a very close relative indeed.--Utahredrock (talk) 01:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC) PS--Any reader of Dreams from my Father will see that Abongo/Roy indeed has had a close and influencing relationship with Barack Jr. This is why this article must be kept. Not to mention as a counter to the mis-information campaign that Barack himself shares his brother's religion--a horrible political lie.--Utahredrock (talk) 01:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - There is not enough coverage in sources to make him notable per WP:BIO -- Kipof (talk) 21:07, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Barack Obama; thats his uncle I believe. Like Barack has a step-grandmother, shes like mid-80s; her skin is pitch black like Sarah.--Freewayguy ^{Msg USC} 21:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Barack Obama Sr. is his father. Barack Obama Jr. is his brother. He may also have an uncle with that name, though I've never seen that in print.--Utahredrock (talk) 01:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - He should be notable because of his actions, not his family member's. Black ngold29 22:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He is very noteable for his life and actions. Please read Dreams from my Father. --Utahredrock (talk) 01:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Would you mind adding these noteable actions to the article? If he played a large role in Barack's life, then that belongs in Barack's article. You say below that he is "interesting", however, that is POV and doesn't make him notable. Black ngold29 03:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've add additional facts along these lines below under a "Note" I added.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:16, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep Obama's older brother is featured in his book Dreams from my Father. It is true we wouldn't care about him if he weren't the brother of the presumptive Democratic nominee for president. Yet he is, and as such he is highly noteable and interesting. All efforts to suppress information on this important man are suspect. Whether they initiate from Obama haters (likely) or lovers is irrelevant. Because of his role in Obama's life he is himself highly noteable. Keep this article and expand it.--Utahredrock (talk) 00:58, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Obama haters and lovers? It doesn't matter whether we support or don't support Obama, the fact remains that this article simply doesn't meet our notability criteria and frankly I don't see any good reason to invoke WP:IAR here. Please refrain from ad hominem arguments, and you would probably be well advised to watch for angry mastodons. L'Aquatique[happy fourth!] 05:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE: I'll refrain if you'll refrain . . . I said that it was/is irrelevant what an editor's view on Obama is--which seems to be the same thing you're saying. Is that incorrect? Let me rephrase: It is is not important what an editors view is on Obama, what is relevant is that this important article be saved. It is always wrong to supress facts. That sort of tactic is commonly used in nations of a totalitarian nature. It horrifies me to see so many wikipedians argue for the supression of or at least limitation of facts. The deletion of this article would be an unnecessary supression of facts on a highly noteable individual.--Utahredrock (talk) 01:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete I'm no Obama fan, but this is a no-brainer non-notibility case, If Abongo gets appointed secretary of something then he can get his own article along with accusations of cronism ;) sorry to disappoint your request, Utahrock, but for me Wikipedia rules come before partisan politics Esmehwa (talk) 06:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course wikipedia must be above politics--partisan or not. That is beside the point. Abongo easily passes any objective noteability test. Your tendency to supress facts on Abongo is much more of a concern than whatever your politics might be.--Utahredrock (talk) 16:28, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete - I urge immediate deletion of this article created by Yellow Rain (talk), who has recently created other new, biased, poorly sourced articles (Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Woods Fund of Chicago) related to Barack Obama and added wikilinks in the Barack Obama article to their new articles. These articles are full of false statements (as were edits to the Penny Pritzker article) that are not supported by WP:Reliable sources and are clear WP:BLP violations.

The most appropriate place for a sentence (that strictly adheres to WP:BLP) about Barack Obama's half-brother Abongo Obama would be in the Children section of the Barack Obama, Sr. article -- where Abongo (Roy) is already mentioned.
Newross (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User Yellow Rain is not the issue. The issue is the importance and noteability of this article. Info on his father's article is good, but it's not enough on this brother of Obama. Without facts out that are easier to find, it's far too easy for misguided and conspiracy-minded folks to misrepresent the truth. In this case, the main truth is that Barack Obama is not, nor was he ever a Muslim. He does have muslim ties, including to his brother. This is important and (sorry to say) interesting stuff--especially when dealing with those who may want to mis-use this information.--Utahredrock (talk) 16:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether you personally find it interesting that Obama has "Muslim ties" is not relevant to the notability of Abongo. The fact remains that there isn't anything at all notable about him that doesn't involve his connection to Obama. Once again, notability is not inherited. --Loonymonkey (talk) 18:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete There is nothing in this article that demonstrates any notability, certainly not independent notability. I agree with Newross that a mention in Barack Obama Sr. of this half-brother whom Obama Jr did not even know until adulthood, and who has not been shown to have some significance beyond a genetic link, is more than enough. This appears to be a coatrack upon which to suggest an Obama connection to Islam for political purposes. See my response above to the incorrect point about Billy Carter for how Carter differs from Abongo. And the comments from Utahredrock here are bordering on incivility - no one is suppressing anything, and a characterization of this delete action as "suppression" is offensive as well as incorrect. Tvoz/talk 18:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But if there is an "Abongo Beer" released commercially, I'll change my vote to "Keep" :-). LotLE×talk 19:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tvoz, I am sorry you find the fact that you're trying to suppress this article offensive. I certainly agree, it is offensive to suppress good articles. That coatrack argument is an odd one that is illogical. How does having articles about Obama's close family members (step-father, brother, others?) support the false claim that he is not a Christian? Please don't attack me, by calling me uncivil, another user has already pushed me on that score. Strongly arguing a case is not uncivil, nor is stating that an argument is illogical. Calling an argument illogical is far different than calling a person illogical. Personal attacks or revealing personal information on editors is.--Utahredrock (talk) 02:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You just did it again: "Tvoz, I am sorry you find the fact that you're trying to suppress this article offensive." No one is trying to suppress anything, and it is offensive, and bordering on uncivil, to suggest that I am. Do you understand? Editors are evaluating the subject, and the article, and determining if they think it meets notability and other standards. You haven't demonstrated objective notability - just repeated that you think it's interesting. And please don't use this AfD to air your personal grievances against other editors ("another user has already pushed me on that score"). Tvoz/talk 06:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into Dreams From My Father. There doesn't seem to be a suggestion that this article will ever be more than comments from a single source (one that already has an article). Within a summary of that book, what Obama comments on his half-siblings could be helpful, but Delete as a separate article. LotLE×talk 18:50, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, if in fact the half-siblings play as important a role in the book as is being alleged - I notice that there is no mention in the Dreams article of them at all. If adding them doesn't give them undue weight in that article, I don't object - but if they play a very small role in the book then they likely have properly not been included in that article. A mention in BO Sr still seems to me the proper place for Abongo, with the evidence in hand. Tvoz/talk 19:10, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree with a mention in Obama Sr.'s article. LotLE×talk 19:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Many people have pointed out that the subject has very little or no "indepenent notability", and I would agree. However, notability is often a property that arises as more than the sum of the individual factors for which a subject is notable. Comparable examples might include Roger Clinton, Jr. and Gustav Schwarzenegger; who both of whom almost certainly would not deserve articles on their own, were it not for their relation to highly famous persons — and yet their status as blood relatives (alone) would not attest to their notablity their notability, but rather a combination of these factors. Yellow Rain (talk) 23:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into Barack Obama. Articles on other presidential candidates mention siblings. On the other hand, I'm not sure how Maya Soetoro-Ng can exist if this one doesn't. Nfitz (talk) 23:37, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support a merge/delete for Maya as well - her independent notability has not been demonstrated either. It is the case, however, that Obama was raised with her, so has had a lifelong relationship with her, unlike Abongo. But that doesn't equate with notability either. Tvoz/talk 23:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The cases for Abongo Obama and Maya Soetoro-Ng are completely unrelated, keep in mind (as a general observation, not a response to Tvoz specifically). Being a sibling of someone notable doesn't automatically make someone notable, but one sibling being non-notable equally doesn't automatically make another sibling non-notable. Any question of Soetoro-Ng's notability can (and will) be handled through appropriate procedures at her article (it survived AfD before, when it had less material). LotLE×talk 00:38, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a fair point - I didn't mean to suggest that they should be handled together, just that the existence of one should not be used as a reason to retain the other, and to indicate my thinking on that one as well. But yes, they are separate matters.. Tvoz/talk 00:45, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, then redirect to the Barack Sr. article. Abongo isn't notable in himself. NawlinWiki (talk) 23:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The trend on this page seems to be toward delete. If this article is deleted, I predict that somebody will come along shortly and try to recreate it because of the importance of this man in Barack Obama's life. I don't know if the comments in favor of deleting are politically motivated or not.

There is a suggestion that somehow this article on Abongo (formerly Roy) Obama advances the false claim that Obama himself is not Christian. Deleting this article, in my humble--and very civil--opinion, is tantamount to suppressing information on close members of Obama's family.

A half-brother is a close relative. It is true Barack Obama Jr. did not meet him until he was in his twenties, but he went out of his way to meet him, understand him, and get to know him. He traveled to D.C. on one occasion when he was a community organizer in Chicago and likely (speculation) didn't have a lot of money for such weekend trips. Barack Jr. visited him, along with other relatives, in Kenya, and Abonogo was at Barrack's wedding as a close family member. There is one half brother that at least by the mid-1990s Barack Obama still barely knew, but that was not Abongo.

I've never understood why people try to delete articles that seem like such obvious keepers. If it's a coatrack as one user asserts, it's a coatrack (also known in the wiki world as stub) article, that will be worthy of adding to as more sources become available.

Deleting this article is the wrong approach.--Utahredrock (talk) 03:10, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is not what coatrack means. Tvoz/talk 06:49, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tvoz, in the link you provided I found a coatrack definition: "A coatrack article is a Wikipedia article that ostensibly discusses the nominal subject, but in reality is a cover for a tangentially related bias subject. The nominal subject is used as an empty coatrack, which ends up being mostly obscured by the "coats"."

This fulfills what I thought you were saying, however, I am clearly not communicating my understanding effectively. You seem to keep saying that by discussing Obama's relatives we just provide a place for the "Obama is not a Christian" crowd to hang their coats. This appears to be faulty thinking to me. I view such articles as beacons of truth on Obama's exteneded family (esp. key players) to hang the truth. (For newer parties to this discussion, I believe that of course Obama is a Christian.)

Your statements often and repeatedly confuse me. It appears you've accused me repeatedly now of intentionally (or not) creating places where anti-Obama activists can air their laundry. My political views are not relevant here, but I do want articles that provde beacons of truth RE candidates so readers can make up their minds and help them break through the clutter of partisan mis-truths. If wiki editors deny the obvious places to do this it seems to me that they are supressing information. Whatever the motives are beyond my concern. My concern is to have a place for well-sourced facts to inform interested parties on facts, not myths. I somehow thought that that is the purpose of an encyclopedia. Maybe not?--Utahredrock (talk) 07:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete (Of course) This is biased wikipedia, and we don't want any information about the family of the (potential) next president of the United States. His family is irrelevant of course, because they are tied to radical islam. And wikipedia doesn't want anything to get in the way of its beloved Obama. So delete it as you did in the past (yes he was deleted before). Deleting relevant knowledge. The family of the President of the United States is relevant. Wiki deletes it anyway. That is the way of Goebbels. That is the way of the liberally left-biased Wikipedia. But we already know that.

Who is Malik Obama?

Check out this article http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/from-the-fact-c.html

ABC is reputable, not sure where an ABC blog ranks. I had never heard of Malik. Not sure if this mostly pro-delete crowd is much concerned, but it seemed related enough to this discussion to mention. --Utahredrock (talk) 06:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6333496 says Obama was 43 in the mid 1980s . . . . so much for the mainstream media getting this stuff right.--Utahredrock (talk) 07:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

News on Malik

A number of news articles in the past 1-2 weeks prominently mentioned Malik Obama. I have no idea who this is, it seems it must be another name for Abongo/Roy. Of course if wikipediaites delete this article we may never know how all of these people fit together.

We all know the mainstream media wastes time on non-noteable people, I am just not convinced either Abongo or Malik fit that category.--Utahredrock (talk) 07:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 93: / Line 93: @@
 ::Your statements often and repeatedly confuse me. It appears you've accused me repeatedly now of intentionally (or not) creating places where anti-Obama activists can air their laundry. My political views are not relevant here, but I do want articles that provde beacons of truth RE candidates so readers can make up their minds and help them break through the clutter of partisan mis-truths. If wiki editors deny the obvious places to do this it seems to me that they are supressing information. Whatever the motives are beyond my concern. My concern is to have a place for well-sourced facts to inform interested parties on facts, not myths. I somehow thought that that is the purpose of an encyclopedia. Maybe not?--[[User:Utahredrock|Utahredrock]] ([[User talk:Utahredrock|talk]]) 07:22, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
+*'''Delete (Of course)'''  This is biased wikipedia, and we don't want any information about the family of the (potential) next president of the United States.  His family is irrelevant of course, because they are tied to radical islam.  And wikipedia doesn't want anything to get in the way of its beloved Obama.  So delete it as you did in the past (yes he was deleted before).  Deleting relevant knowledge.  The family of the President of the United States is relevant.  Wiki deletes it anyway.  That is the way of Goebbels.  That is the way of the liberally left-biased Wikipedia.  But we already know that.
 ====Who is Malik Obama?====
 *Check out this article http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/06/from-the-fact-c.html