Talk:Avengers (comics)

I don't really agree with some of the 16 Sep 03 16:48 changes. The fact that the Hulk wore clown make-up for part of (but not all of) the first issue seems like a trivial detail. More significantly, I don't think the Justice League was really the model for the Avengers; rather, the success of the Justice League was the inspiration for the Fantastic Four. The Avengers were simply one in a line of teams of previously-existing heroes (who trace their lineage back to the Justice Society of America). Lastly, I don't think Cap's guilt over Bucky's death was really a running theme in the series. It had a place in some of the Roy Thomas issues, but was not really a factor for the team as a whole - nor a theme for the book - for the most part.
-mhr 00:41, 27 Sep 2003 (UTC)

West Coast Avengers

Should the WCA get their own article, or at the very least, their own STB in this article? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:14, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, they should get their own article (as should the various Justice League branches (especially Justice League International), FTM. If you're volunteering to do it, go ahead :) - SoM 22:12, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

If the Great Lakes Avengers have a page, surely the wacos deserve one. Steve block 20:48, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

• Okay, I've made a start here. Sadly I dropped the book about where this synopsis ends, so I can't add anything more to the party. Steve block 21:07, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Size

Sorry about that. When I submitted my changes, the bottom of the page got cut off. I dont know if the article is getting too big. --DrBat 14:11, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Not a problem. However, do stop replacing the JPG with the PNG. We've been through this before. The PNG you're putting there for the "Siege" cover just looks painfully oversaturated. --khaosworks 14:16, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

He's been doing that a lot... - SoM 14:47, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

New Avengers isn't the Avengers

New avengers aren't the Avengers, so why is a cover thumb of it as a (false) representation of the avengers?

There is a New Avengers article, correctly, since they're different teams on different books, with different members.

Someone should really remove the New Avengers covers from this section, there's already a section for it, it's the New Avengers section.

No there is not a NA article (well, not for the comic). Correctly. The New Avengers comic features a team known as the Avengers. This article is on the team. Two plus two is four. - SoM 23:11, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

NA section: The_New_Avengers_(comic)

Avengers = Avengers

New Avengers = New Avengers

Different teams, different books, different fans even :)

Even the creators and the story underlines that the Avengers ended (disassembled), and were restarted, as another team, on a new book with new members, new base, new mission et cetera. Justice League Europe isn't Justice league America simply because it shares "Justice League" and a few members. If the justice league deserves the dignity, why don't the Avengers? Would the great Lake Avengers or West Coast be characterized an honest representation of the Avengers? No. Then why should the "New" Avengers be.

The only excuse would be a hedonistic pursuit of absolutely the last cover gloss to be on the article, problematic, since it's factually\historically wrong.

The team was disbanded in the wake of the Onslaught saga, yet nobody questions that the team that reformed after the Heroes Return was the Avengers. The composition of the team has changed so many times, starting from the Hulk leaving, then Captain America joining, then all the original members leaving with only Cap, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to pick up where the others left off, yet the team was still the Avengers. "The old order changeth" is one of the team's catchphrases, and has been amply demonstrated throughout the team's history. All through this, the team was still the Avengers. The new team is still called the Avengers, not the New Avengers, in the context of the Marvel Universe, the "new" just being the title of the book. --khaosworks 03:26, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

The New Avengers are not the Avengers! They do need their own page! The current page is for the comic series. This title is now finished! Just as the Young Avengers (a completely new title) has it's own article, the New Avengers (another completely new title) deserve theirs!

When they start calling themselves the New Avengers, I'll agree. Until then, they're still the Avengers. The New Avengers is the title of the comic book, not the team. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 12:40, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

We don't know if they are calling themselves the new Avengers or the New Avengers.

Exactly, it's a comic book series featuring a team known as the Avengers. The comic book series should have its own page!

The New Avengers, a Marvel Comics comic book begun in 2004 focusing on the Avengers, a superhero team. The link brings us to the Avengers page -- so what's wrong with a page for this comic book that begun in 2004?

Because there isn't anything to write about the comic book that isn't already adequately covered here. And the New Avengers really only works in the context of the history of the book, which is what this article also covers. That's why it redirects. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:19, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

My point is that it shouldn't be adequately covered here! It an entirely different saubject/category/whatever you want to call it. Just as with the West Coast Avengers. It's a new title. The Avengers title is finished, so only information about things that happen during the run of this title should be included on this page, and then at the end, a link to the New Avengers page...

How is it completely different? Note that the West Coast Avengers were actually called the West Coast Avengers in their title. These are still the Avengers - the New Avengers is a continuation of that same organization's history. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 12:32, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Merge with NA

• Merge New Avengers into this page. - SoM 13:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
• Merge New Avengers into this page as per my reasons above. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:02, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
• Merge New Avengers into this page.--DrBat 21:55, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
• Don't Merge New Avengers is an entirely new version of the original The Avengers series. Sure, the events during The Avengers are the history of The New Avengers, but this new title should have its own page, for a more in-depth article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.46.57 (talk • contribs) 15:18, 3 September 2005 UTC (UTC)

• Who's being harmed by the New Avengers page existing? Why do stubborn people have a problem with it?

Taking your idea to the extremes, then everthing should be included on the main Avengers page - every single comic series - every character even. It just doesn't work! There's too much information, sgo and make entries for everytime the title's been restarted to issue 1. Did they reboot the series and completely undo the titles entire history? No, they did not. They just added "new" to the title and added some new characters. I think the New Avengers page should be reverted back to a redirect. The info there isn't that useful and is covered by the Avengers article.--Kross 16:43, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

• Going back to respond to this comment... I'm sorry but your reasoning is lost on me here... The comic series The Avengers is made of three volumes, accounting for the #1s. The The Avengers title is no more. It's a new title: The New Avengers. Not another The Avengers #1, The NEW Avengers #1. It's not the same comic anymore, and it's not a fourth volume of The Avengers. And no offence, but who are you to decide how useful the information is? What isn't to you, may be to a lot of other people. You can't let your own opinion on the matter decide which pages should exist, and which pages shouldn't. The current brief on The Avengers page is enough to conclude the article, and I think some people aren't willing to face the fact that a page you have put work into cannot be updated beyond what is there. As a new comic - as a new topic worthy of an article, it should have its own page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.66.40.61 (talk • contribs) 12:51, 5 September 2005 UTC (UTC)

• Don't Merge Not everyone is going to be happy with whatever decision is reached. The way I see it is that the The Avengers title is over, so information on the page for The Avengers should be contained there. The The New Avengers title is going to be continuing beyond what can be put into the The Avengers article without making it very long and awkward. As for the comment about the info there, it's clearly modelled exactly on the Young Avengers page, and though it's limited right now, it has space to grow - which is what Wikipedia is all about. It has more space to grow in its own page than in the The Avengers page. The New Avengers isn't The Avengers. Just as The West Coast Avengers isn't The Avengers (as for the difference in the team, a lot of people don't agree on that point, either, which is why The Wasp and Henry Pym have The Avengers in their affiliations, and Iron Man has The Avengers and The West Coast Avengers. Sure The Avengers and The New Avengers are about the same team, but the series' are different. This being my point. The New Avengers page is about the comic book started in 2004 (under a different title than The Avengers). It should have its own page for a more in-depth article. Avengers_fan 23:22, September 3, 2005

• Merge New Avengers into this page. Personally, I'm a little tired of people going around creating different articles for every iteration of the same character/magazine. Spider-Man does not need articles for Spectacular Spider-Man or Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, what is there to say about them that cannot be covered in the main article? Likewise, the New Avengers don't need a different page. It's the same team concept, working in the same circumstances. The only reason for it to have a separate page is to have detailed plot synopses for the new series - which, as the series progresses and more issues are published, turns the page into a messy text dump, especially because comics fans tend to be nitpicky about details (see Runaways (comics) or The Ultimates for examples). I prefer to have three or four paragraphs detailing what the series is about, as well as major changes to the overall direction of the title, than large synopses - which in the case of The Avengers, still works in the main article without the need to create a new one. --Pc13 23:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
  • The information on the new page is limited at the moment, and as there is more information to add, what is there will be condensed and expanded. It's an entirely new comic, continuing the adventures of the team The Avengers. People who say that the current Avengers page is for the team are wrong! The page is clearly for the comic! The only thing I can think people may nitpick about is the title of the New Avengers page. If it was changed from New Avengers to The New Avengers, then no one can have a problem with it! It's clearly a page about a comic title, which (and I know a lot of you don't want to hear this) is not The Avengers. It's The NEW Avengers! Sorry, but people are just going to have to get used to this. Sooner or later, this comic title will be needing its own page -- so what's wrong with sooner? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avengers_fan (talk • contribs) 18:10, 4 September 2005 UTC (UTC)

Point the First: The title of this comic series is called The New Avengers, not The Avengers. Two entirely different comic series. Whether you want to believe it or now, this is a fact!

Point the Second: Jessica Drew: I GOT FIRED FROM MY S.H.I.E.L.D. POST AND ASKED TO BE A NEW AVENGER ALL IN ONE DAY. (The New Avengers #3) Okay, so it's all written in upper case. Is she saying "a new Avenger" or is she saying "a New Avenger"? Well, let's face it. If it was the first, then she wouldn't have said new Avenger at all. She'd have said "a new member of the Avengers", or similar, or forgotten the new altogether and said "an Avenger". Apologies for those who don't agree - but it's just common sense. Not happy that Jessica Drew knows what she's talking about? Fine! Captain America: JESSICA DREW. WELCOME TO THE NEW AVENGERS. YOU'RE JUST IN TIME. (The New Avengers #4) So what? Captain America doesn't know what he's calling his own team now? THE NEW AVENGERS! Not the new team of Avengers. Not the new line-up. Nothing like that. He says in plain English: WELCOME TO THE NEW AVENGERS. I repeat again: THE NEW AVENGERS.

So, we have a new comic called The New Avengers, and a team refering to themselves as THE NEW AVENGERS... What's the problem! The proof is all there! The New Avengers should have its own page. Case Closed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avengers fan (talk • contribs) 22:48, 4 September 2005 UTC (UTC)

Bendis is educated. He loves doing this kind of stuff -- splitting the internet in half, or in our case, splitting Avengers fans in half, the pro-merge and the anti-merge. He wouldn't make Captin America say "New Avengers Assemble!" or "Welcome, new member of the Avengers." as it's easier saying, "Welcome new Avenger." It's called brevity, it makes dialogues sound better. --Windspinner 06:17, 5 September 2005 (UTC)windspinner

So, by your logic, Captain America would say "Avengers Assemble!" even if his team was called The New Avengers - which he has called them. Note: He hasn't called the group The Avengers. It's not a new line-up of The Avengers. The group is called The New Avengers... Brevity... Thank you.

No, his team's name is not "New Avengers", it's still The Avengers. He just keeps using New as an adjective. The New Avengers is just a phase in Avengers' history, and you are positively insane about all this New Avengers being a different team.

While I don't appreciate the personal attack on my sanity, we don't actually know which it is. THE NEW AVENGERS can mean the new Avengers or the New Avengers. The only thing I can lean on is that I've been studying English Language for years, and speaking it for as long as I can remember and the context in which the words have been used would suggest that the team is called The New Avengers.

• Merge New Avengers into this page. I think what we could do is provide a subheading for the New Avengers after the The 2000s heading. It's altogether redundant and confusing if we don't do it that way. I mean, this might be a different title, but it is the same team, same spirit, same leader, same financier, same enjoyable stories, different line-up. Just look at the Excalibur they got totally revamped, but look, they're on the same page with the "Old Excalibur". Yeah, I got it, the comic has the same title, but if you're reason for dis-merging is the difference of the lineup, fans and stuff, then this makes no sense. I say merge it! --Windspinner 23:58, 4 September 2005 (UTC)windspinner
• Merge. -Sean Curtin 02:32, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
  • Sorry to nitpick, Sean, but which page to merge into which? I think I know what you mean, but let's be sure. :) --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 06:25, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

As has been said - the reasons for keeping the pages seperate are that the comic is no longer The Avengers. It is not another The Avengers #1. It's The New Avengers #1. And the team are refering to themselves as THE NEW AVENGERS. Tony Stark: WE HAVE PUT A NEW AVENGERS TEAM TOGETHER. A New Avengers team... Not.. We've reformed the Avengers... The facts speak for themselves, and based on the facts, this new title should have its own article. Yes, there should be a brief on the Avengers page, but it should not be as covered in-depth as the New Avengers article should be. Based on the facts, these two different comic titles warrant seperate pages. The only thing endangering this is peoples' own personal opinions, which should not be influencing the decision. It's Wikipedia - not your own personal fan-club, and the fact of the matter is that these are two different topics. You may as well merge cats and dogs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.91.55 (talk • contribs) 08:16, 5 September 2005 UTC (UTC)

And, to use thine own quote "*A new Avengers team". Not "The". "A" :) Been nw Avengers teams going back to Avengers v1 #16, and taking in Av v1 #93 (team had disbanded), Av v1 #205, Av v1 #300 (team had disbanded), Av v3 #1 (team had disbanded), Av v3 #27, etc, etc :). And that's not even counting the WCA (Which also had the significant factor you missed of running concurrently rather than consecutively with other Avengers series). No ice :) - SoM 14:02, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

That's what I've been trying to say all along. It's obvious that Avengers_fan is a newcomer to the comic. That's great - I hope he reads back and realizes what a rich history this team has, and how fantastic it used to be in its heyday. And perhaps once he does so, he'll realize that the old order changeth is nothing "new". --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 14:07, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

It's not the 'A' and 'The' that is the issue, as SoM has tried to make it. It's the difference between a new Avengers team and a New Avengers team, just as they may have said WE HAVE PUT AN AVENGERS TEAM TOGETHER or WE HAVE PUT AN X-MEN TEAM TOGETHER. It's either New Avengers or new Avengers, and there's no way to be certain. The only thing that is entirely certain beyond any doubt that there is a new comic series called The New Avengers, and just as every other comic series, regardless of characters has its own page, this comic should have its own, too.

-- Just adding a little comment here -- It's not The Avengers. It's The New Avengers. "The old order changeth" is a little redundant here. The title of the comic is completely new. It's more like "The new order cometh"! - Avengers fan 17:45, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that no one knows if it's New Avengers or new Avengers. The team do refer to themselves as the New Avengers. Just take Jessica Drew's quote: ...ASKED TO BE A NEW AVENGER... This says a lot! I'm sorry, but there is no way, if the team wasn't called the New Avengers, that she would say that! It's just common sense that she would say "ASKED TO BE AN AVENGER". Whether you're willing to agree or not - I'm just going with common sense here. However the title of the comic has changed. It is no longer The Avengers. Just as The West Coast Avengers, and several variations of Spider-Man comic titles have their own pages, The New Avengers, as a comic title, regardless of characters whould have its own page, too.

Comic Title: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Wikipedia Page:

The Avengers . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The Avengers

The West Coast Avengers. . . . . The West Coast Avengers

The Spectacular Spider-Man . . . The Spectacular Spider-Man

The Amazing Spider-Man . . . . . The Amazing Spider-Man

The Sensational Spider-Man . . . The Sensational Spider-Man

The New Avengers . . . . . . . . . . The New Avengers

Need I go on?

Why does this not make sense to people? The only difference is that with all of these different Spider-Man pages... He's still Spider-Man. Not only do we have The New Avengers title, but we have a new team calling themselves The New Avengers. If the comic was called The Avengers, then there wouldn't be a problem, but the fact is, that it's a different comic under a different title. What do you have against The New Avengers? The facts dictate that The New Avengers is deserving of its own page. The pages should be left as they currently are - people just aren't willing to accept it.

• Don't Merge The only actual evidence that has been brought forward is in favour of the pages remaining as they are. Whether people are happy about this or not, it's not the case. Personally, I think they should be merged, but based on this discussion and the evidence, I'm going with the non-merging. Why pick on the Avengers? If you're going to merge something, merge all those Spider-Mans. Until that happens and there is a general consensus in Wikipedia, The Avengers/The New Avengers should not be singled out and The New Avengers, as a comic series, should have its own article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.204.16 (talk • contribs) 15:31, 6 September 2005 UTC (UTC) - only two edits, both to this talk page.
  • Since you mention that, I notice that Avengers_fan (talk • contribs) has only 28 articlespace edits, on only nine pages (including this and New Avengers) - SoM 16:38, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
    • So, what? Unless you've had a username with Wikipedia forever your ideas are devalued? I'm sorry, but I don't think so. I may have only had minor edits to a few pages in the very short time I've been around, but I have created pages on Captain Britain (Kelsey Leigh) and Ant-Man (Scott Lang), and I think they're very good pages - even if I do say so myself. What people have contributed to Wikipedia isn't an issue here. The issue is that if Spider-Man comics can have, like, 9 different pages, then the Avengers should have seperate pages for all of their *different* comics, and The New Avengers is a different comic.Avengers fan 17:04, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Vote?

I'm confused by Khaosworks' use of the word 'vote' on the history page. This is a vote? I thought it was a discussion... So what happens if the majority vote is wrong?

It's a vote to see what the views on the proposal to merge is. If there is a significant enough proportion of people to support a merge, then we will have established a consensus to do so. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:51, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

"So what happens if the majority vote is wrong?" Happens in politics a lot *resists temptation to give specific examples*. Doesn't change matters - SoM 13:54, 5 September 2005 (UTC)