Talk:Property is theft!: Difference between revisions
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::Karl Marx is much more notable, and the material cited [{{fullurl:Property is theft!|diff=227861516}} now] is more substantial and relevant, being entirely about Proudhon and not a few lines in an article about something else, and also timely, being written in the same period, not merely pointing out the obvious a century after the fact. So why do we need the Branden quote at all? (The "rebuttal" is also now invalid, but we'll get to that later in the unlikely event this version is not reverted.) --[[User:EmbraceParadox|EmbraceParadox]] ([[User talk:EmbraceParadox|talk]]) 17:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC) |
::Karl Marx is much more notable, and the material cited [{{fullurl:Property is theft!|diff=227861516}} now] is more substantial and relevant, being entirely about Proudhon and not a few lines in an article about something else, and also timely, being written in the same period, not merely pointing out the obvious a century after the fact. So why do we need the Branden quote at all? (The "rebuttal" is also now invalid, but we'll get to that later in the unlikely event this version is not reverted.) --[[User:EmbraceParadox|EmbraceParadox]] ([[User talk:EmbraceParadox|talk]]) 17:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Of course Marx is more relevant, but that does not justify removing Branden; Branden's critique is more explicit and gives the reader a better idea of Proudhon's supposedly fallacious reasoning. The notion that the phrase is formally suspect is likely to occur to readers of the article, who will want properly sourced analysis from notable figures. Regards, <font color="404040">[[User talk:Skomorokh|<font face="Garamond" color="black">Skomorokh</font>]]</font> 19:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC) |
:::Of course Marx is more relevant, but that does not justify removing Branden; Branden's critique is more explicit and gives the reader a better idea of Proudhon's supposedly fallacious reasoning. The notion that the phrase is formally suspect is likely to occur to readers of the article, who will want properly sourced analysis from notable figures. Regards, <font color="404040">[[User talk:Skomorokh|<font face="Garamond" color="black">Skomorokh</font>]]</font> 19:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Is it? I mean "theft, as a forcible violation of property, presupposes the existence of property." This is clear. Supposing a hypothetical person who did not find this clear, does explaining the logical and genetic interdependency of concepts acutally clarify anything? No, of course it doesn't, and obviously it was never supposed to. Instead, the example of "property is theft" was supposed to clarify this philosophical assertion, not the other way around! --[[User:EmbraceParadox|EmbraceParadox]] ([[User talk:EmbraceParadox|talk]]) 19:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC) |
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== Proposed merger == |
== Proposed merger == |
Revision as of 19:33, 25 July 2008
Property vs. real estate property
What is not immediately clear when reading this article is that the term "property" is used here to mean real estate, or land, property, and not (I believe) any other kind of property (like stocks, a business, a car, or an apple or pencil for that matter). I suggest that this be made clear from the outset.
--Serge 01:31, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
- This is how Marx used "property." Proudhon (at least in What is Property?) considered the legal concept of property as it existed in France as derived from Roman law. This is very specifically stated in chapter 2. —Jemmytc 17:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Justification for inclusion of libertarian socialism in links section
Proudhon believed in the control of the means of production by the workers themselves, and as a believer in the labour theory of value opposed profit-making enterprises. He believed that society should be organised as a federation of workers assemblies. True, he believed that goods should be exchanged in a market, but this market would have little in common with the capitalist idea of the free market (for example, goods were to be exchanged at "cost value", not whatever price would create the greatest profit). Workers self-management and the idea of a society organised as a federation of workers' organisations is of course key to most conceptions of libertarian socialism. No-one would suggest that Proudhon was a libertarian socialist exactly, but it seems perfectly reasonable to include a link to libertarian socialism. I haven't restored the link to communism, but a case certainly could be made. Proudhon had a significant influence on Marx's early writings. Cadr 00:38, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
Request for clarification
Is the sentence, "The former is considered illegitimate property, the latter legitimate property.", which occurs somewhere around the middle of the longest paragraph, mistyped? --Denihilonihil 13:54, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
- No, it's right. Property is theft if it's that which isn't the result of labor. Property is freedom when it the product of labor. If you protect unused land from others, you're stealing that land. If you protect your cornfield from others, it's freedom. For Proudhon, legitimate property can only come about through labor. RJII 19:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Absurd notion
There has to be some kind of documented response to this absurd premise:
- He proposed that "the laborer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right of property in the thing which he has produced."
So when someone provides the capital to buy the equipment to run a diamond mine and pay wages to the miners, when a miner finds a diamond, the miner retains "a natural right of property in the diamond which he has produced"? And when that miner takes his rough diamond to a cutter, whom he pays a wage to cut the diamond, the cutter owns the resulting cut diamonds he produces? And when the cutter pays a jeweler to mount one of the cut diamonds in a gold ring, the resulting diamond ring produced by the jeweler belongs to the jeweler? In a system that worked according to this principle, why would anyone be motivated to do anything except steal? --Serge 21:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- So the diamond miner is supposed to be more motivated when he doesn't get the diamond? Hmmmm. —Jemmytc 17:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- Serge's comment does not indicate that. Your rebuttal doesn't address the issue he raises which is that if it is the case that "the laborer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right of property in the thing which he has produced" then it is the case that multiple individuals could own the same property simultaneously. But more importantly he is suggesting that a rebuttal to the concept probably exists and should be provided for the article to be balanced. 216.36.186.2 (talk) 19:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Contradictory quotes
These two quotes are completely contradictory:
- He proposed that "the laborer retains, even after he has received his wages, a natural right of property in the thing which he has produced."
- "Property [is] a triumph of Liberty. For it is born of Liberty ... Property is the only power that can act as a counterweight to the State, because it shows no reverence for princes, rebels against society and is, in short, anarchist."
Further explanation/clarification is needed. --Serge 22:10, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, Proudhon's philosophy of property was developed in a number of works and it is contradictory since he changed his views. -- Vision Thing -- 08:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
He did not coined the slogan
"Property is theft !" is a slogan which is coined much sooner than Proudhon's book. It is first used by Brissot. Direct quote from Marx : "But as Proudhon entangled the whole of these economic relations in the general legal concept of “property,” “la propriété,” he could not get beyond the answer which, in a similar work published before 1789, Brissot had already given in the same words: “La propriété’ c’est le vol.”
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1865/letters/65_01_24.htm
- According to Robert Graham, "The claim that Proudhon took this phrase from the Girondin, J.P. Brissot de Warville, repeated by Marx after his break with Proudhon, has been decisively refuted by Robert L. Hoffman in his study, Revolutionary Justice: The Social and Political Theory of P.J. Proudhon (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1972), pp. 46-48." Anyway, I added mention of Brissot. —Jemmytc 17:45, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Criticism Section
- This section has been removed, but I'll leave the discussion. Myself, I would think that in order to be notable any criticism would have to come from, or represent, political thought of the same stature (within the history of political philosophy) as Proudhon's; e.g., Marx, Bentham, Burke, Jefferson. I know, at least, that Marx criticized Proudhon extensively; but I do not know the content of this criticism very well. —Jemmytc 18:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following:
- This is based on a misunderstanding of Proudhon's argument. Proudhon differentiated between "ownership" and "property". According to his terminology, a person has "ownership" of something if they use it on a daily basis. For example, a student owns his pencil. A thing is the "property" of a person if they own it on paper, and derive profit from someone else using it. If the student had borrowed the pencil from his school for a fee, it would be the "property" of his school.
There is no misunderstanding involved. It is a fallacy as it sits. He may have been doing a play on words for rhetorical effect but the words still have meaning. If the student stole the pencil from the school he would be using it, but that could not convey rightful ownership. Steve 21:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
- I appreciate the attempt at a compromise, but it doesn't matter that someone (and I'm not sure it was Proudhon) used the word "property" or "ownership" as a valid right and the other as "theft" - the word theft isn't a valid word unless the words "property" and "ownership" are valid. That is the nature of a stolen concept. Steve 03:39, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
There are several reasons why that paragraph is wrong:
- The criticism section is for criticism of the articles main points - It should not be turned into a series of arguments against arguments
- I kept the body of your argument's statement - a good faith compromise.
- Saying the criticism is a 'misunderstanding' is your interpretation which if entered would be origonal research.
- Material must have a source - a source was supplied for the criticism and without a source for any 'counter-criticism,' it would be personal POV.
Steve 20:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the non-NPOV from the wording so that it's now a claim of contradiction and added the obvious logical rules showing why stolen concept simply doesn't logically work here. A non-neutral point of view, even with an outside source, is not appropriate. If you want to make it non-neutral by removing the references to the claim rather than as a fact (which they aren't since they are full of logical problems, which are demonstrated in the claim), then I'll simply delete it in the future. If you want to claim that a response of clarification to the non-neutral critique is not valid for not being sourced, then you fail under not being neutral. I'd rather just delete the inanity, but I'd rather give you a chance to respond to the actual reasoning for keeping your illogical contribution in the talk page or even in the actual article. Freedom of objectivist religion, I say. -- SAW
- Your personal POV is rather obvious. I've reverted your nonsensical attempt to censor a valid, sourced criticism. Steve 14:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Nothing was removed -- only added text that neutralized the criticism. Since the criticism is illogical, it only makes logical sense to refer to it neutrally, not as if it were a true fact. No other articles say 2+2=5 is an accepted fact. I can only expect you to understand when you take some courses or read some books on logic. -- SAW. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.193.114.134 (talk) 16:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
- Steve, feel free to quote somebody arguing against the distinction between possessional ownership and property using facts, but an a priori argument regarding synthetic distinctions with mutually exclusive definitions falls flat on its face. There are much more famous criticisms, like Rousseau's inevitability argument. I _thought_ Objectivists were supposed to like basic logic. In Proudhon's time, many felt that property itself wasn't linked to ownership, since paper-properties were previously limited only to royalty and the lords, much as patents continue to this day. You have to understand the language in the context that Proudhon lived and wrote in, not in the age of capitalism, where property by title is the norm. Rousseau, if you don't remember, argued that the concept of property was theft from the commons, but he also embraced the idea that theft of the commons was for the progressive benefit of humanity, whether it (property as a solution to "the tragedy of the commons" as Hardin puts it) made sense or not. -- SAW —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.193.114.134 (talk) 00:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC).
- Feel free to find a source to cite - but WP doesn't allow original research. Steve 04:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
"Objectivist critique"
The Branden complaint seems to center around a too-literal reading of the slogan, whereas the rest of Proudhon's argument seems to make the meaning clear. Surely there are other critiques that are more relevant to the substance of the argument. An anarchist one would be most relevant; I suggest that one be included. —vivacissamamente 12:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm removing this. It's entirely inappropriate to have an "Objectivist" POV on this page. —Jemmytc 01:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
- I've restored the section, which was wrongly removed. It isn't POV, but a valid critical observation that is properly referenced. --Steve (talk) 19:59, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have to agree, this is lame. Surely we can come up with better complaints than this. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 15:37, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- I've put your rebuttal under it's own heading of "Counter-Criticism." But maybe "Rebuttal" would make a better section title... Or maybe a subheading under "Criticism" would be better than a separate, following section? But it does make sense to give a degree of separatation. --Steve (talk) 05:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- The ideal degree of separation might be to separate them both from the page entirely. Maybe we could move them onto a page about this "stolen concept" business. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 15:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- Just because someone wrote something about the phrase doesn't mean it's appropriate in this article. This "criticism" is embarrassingly stupid -- as the quotation in the introduction of the article shows, Proudhon does not mean that property is the same thing as theft, any more than that slavery is the same thing as murder. A society in which the right of property is absolute is a society in which the vast majority of people will have no property -- thus, for the masses, property amounts to dispossession, or theft. The contradiction in the phrasing is wholly intentional, a literary effect. A more literal phrasing would be "the right of property exists only on paper" but that doesn't sound nearly as good, does it? The author of the criticism fails to understand this, and merely attacks a straw man.
- But that is not the reason I removed it. Note two things: first, this is an article about a phrase; the purpose of such an article, in keeping with the fact that this is an encyclopedia, is to explain its meaning and document its locus classicus. Criticism of Proudhon's arguments belong in the article on Proudhon's work, What is Property?. Second, this particular criticism, besides its stupidity, is far from notable -- it is just a couple paragraphs from one article by some random nobody in a rather insignificant journal. Marx criticized Proudhon extensively -- he devoted a whole book to it -- that is notable. To include only this criticism, which comes centuries after the fact (in a time when the sovereign right of property is no longer taken seriously by any acting government) is completely out of proportion. But even Marx's criticism does not belong on this page: it has nothing to do with the phrase. The phrase is different from the argument. —Jemmytc 09:57, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
- Please do not remove valid, relevant, sourced material.
- The only "embarrassingly stupid" thing I'm aware of is the ill-mannered fashion in which you delete relevant, sourced information to suit your personal POV while engaging in ad hominum attacks.
- It is in the criticism section and it is dead-on relevant, all of the blathering on about literary illusions to the contrary. Of course the 'contradiction' is wholly intentional - that does not invalidate the fact that it can also be shown to be a form of self-defeating fallacy.
- You said that this is an article about a phrase - the criticism is about the phrase - because something is a phrase doesn't remove it from the realm of meaning. "The phrase is different from the argument" argues the person who bases his argument on other arguments in the same article which discusses an argument characterized by the phrase which argues for a specific view of property.
- If you want to INSIST that this is just a historical location of the phrase - fine with me, we can edit out everything in the article that even hints at political POV of any kind and make it a truly dry tract with no meat or juice to it at all. Trying to have your cake and eat it too (that's just a phrase) results in POV. If you want an article that gives a solid representation of what Proudhon meant, you also have to have the fortitude to endure the proper criticism - Please note that there is NO criticism of Proudhon or his theories - just the phrase - the criticism is in scope.
- I have restored what is a valid entry for this article. Unless Wikipedia has changed since I was last here, this is NOT your personal property and is NOT here to reflect your personal point of view. It is as an encyclopedia article which warrants that criticism section.--Steve (talk) 17:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- The article does not reflect any point of view wrt Proudhon. I didn't come here to add my point of view: I came here because I spent an afternoon reading What is Property? and wanted to clean up the article, which seemed to me to have been written by people who had not in fact read the book. The article merely explains the popular origin of the phrase and some the context in that origin. Without the criticism section, the page is high quality, and encylopedic. With the criticism section, it is an embarrassment. I don't want to get into an argument about the criticism itself -- I'm sorry I even discussed it before -- but the section is just so silly and out of place here. I don't understand why you can't see that. You're clearly putting it here because you want to have a critical "objectivist" view, but no such view is of any importance here. The very fact that it is an "objectivist critique" of Proudhon makes it inappropriate, because "objectivism" is not part of the same history of thought. Even Proudhon's views are unimportant in themselves -- the legal theory he was criticizing is no longer important, it is purely historical. Please can you just try and get some perspective? Your little religion or whatever you call it just doesn't belong on every page in an encyclopedia.
- I can't believe you're going to tell me that this article is not here to reflect my personal point of view. Maybe you should read about psychological projection. I'm not trying to advance any point of view (and I haven't even made my views known): I'm trying to write high quality encyclopedia articles. Meanwhile, it's perfectly obvious what you're doing here.
- In any case, you keep adding a section even though it doesn't have consensus. (And it is unlikely it will ever have consensus, because it really does not belong.) That is against WP policy. It is edit warring, and it is disruptive. Please stop. I don't want to deal with this edit war bullshit. It's demoralizing. It makes me not want to edit WP at all. Sigh. —Jemmytc 21:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- The material is sourced to an article that isn't even about property or politics at all, but is aimed at "anti-rationalists". The "property is theft" thing occupies a couple of lines, and it is just an aside. This does not count as an "objectivist critique". If someone wants to provide a counterpoint, they can find something that is more than a couple of lines in some random article somewhere. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 20:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- The article is about a kind of logical fallacy - it not only applies to the phrase that this article is about - but this phrase is specifically used as an example of that kind of logical error. It is NOT an aside - the fallacy discussed IS what the sourced material is about. As to "Objectivist critique" you mention, that is what someone here on this talk page put up for a heading of this talk section - it wasn't me. I don't see this as an Objectivism issue, or an Anarchy issue, or a Socialist issue - it is about a criticism of the phrase as a phrase. Please do not remove valid, relevant, sourced material - to do so is in direct violation of Wikipedia policy. --Steve (talk) 10:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- The phrase is only an example of the fallacy if taken literally - but that's fine in the context of the article cited, because it's just a prelminary example before getting to the main point, which is directed against a perceived trend towards relativism, anti-rationalism, and mysticism in the philosophy of its time and place. It has absolutely nothing to say about property rights or any sort of politics at all. (Have you read the article?) You can quote Wikipedia policy all you like, but even "valid, relevant, sourced material" should be given weight in proportion to its importance to the topic. Of the things that could be said as a counterpoint, this is far, far down on the list. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 13:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- (For reference we are talking about this article.) --EmbraceParadox (talk) 14:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- I understand that the referenced article is addressing a logical fallacy (yes, I've read the article) and I know it is not about property except as so far as it deals with two concepts and their relationship: Property and theft. The thrust of the article is on epistemological issues. But it is dead on target with this phrase and uses it as an example. The article is about a phrase - the criticism says this exact phase is a like a contradiction in terms - what could be more on-target, proportional, appropriate, or relevant?
- I'm also aware of some good sources critical of Proudhon's property rights positions but to bring in them in makes for a major criticism section - a much larger critical section. This often stirs up a lot of partisan editing which I'd like to avoid. Also it becomes difficult to judge when the exposition of different positions critical of Proudhon should be cut off. After all this article is about a phrase. If it stays mostly about the phrase, rather than a fuller exposition of Proudhon's political positions, this criticism is adequate - it addresses the logical contradiction of the phrase - the counter states that it was not intended to be taken literally. That is a good and balanced approach.
- Any article that hangs on a context as short as this phrase has to be open to criticism of the phrase's logical meaning - or open the flood-gates to a much larger scope of criticism. The only alternative to those two positions would be to strip the article down to a very tiny, dry historical accounting of what was said by whom and when - with out any fleshing out of the positions or meaning behind them. If the criticism is left in place, as it has been for quite a while until recently, it is adequate to make people think about literal versus metaphorical and more actively engage the rest of the article with an additional perspective.
- Given these points I think you can see that I've thought about and addressed what is the proper weight or proportion for a critical section. And the reason I persist in mentioning the policies of Wikipedia is because people ARE violating them in deleting valid, proportional, relevant, sourced material. --Steve (talk) 18:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I cannot, with my Wikipedia-policy-violating eye, see the point of separating the two. It would be a very artificial division, if it were done that way - and it hasn't, because a lot of what is written in this article already is not really about the phrase proper. It would be a bit strange to allow such things in the article and then say we cannot include criticism of them because the article is "only about the phrase". So yes, I am more than happy to open the flood gates. I have already proposed a merger. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 21:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
I have again restored the material thatJemmy keeps deleting. His last deletion was not mentioned here on the Talk page yet in the Edit summary of his deletion he accuses me of not explaining MY actions on the talk page. I am not the one behaving in a disruptive fashion. One can go back into the history of this article and see mentions of the logical contradiction inherent in the phrase (I saw this as far back as April 2006 which is as far as I looked). There have been many editors over the years who have written to that effect -pointing out this obvious fact. The criticism section was established and arrived at over 7 months ago under a concensus. Jeremy acts as if this page were his private property, deletes valid, relevant, proportional, sourced material which has a history of concensus. He then accuses me of being disruptional for restoring it. --Steve (talk) 08:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- What is Consensus? Consensus is Tyrrany! As to the previous mentions you refer to, it looks like it briefly talks about a literal contradiction. It did not talk about objectivism, stolen concepts, or quote an objectivist newletter article on epistemology. After all, it is, as you say, obvious! Nathaniel Branden wasn't the first or most important to notice it, by a long shot. As I say, Proudhon already noticed it, and embraced it! Why should objectivism come into it at all?
- So, is it finally settled? Can we go for a brief mention like was there before? For reference, I assume the April 2006 version Steve is talking about is this. --EmbraceParadox (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- My mention of concensus was in reply to Jeremy's complaints. The criticism isn't about Objectivism, it discusses the phrase containing a specific kind logical fallacy. Why would anyone be so upset at this being pointed out? Agreement is dissent! Wisdom is foolishness!
- So, is it finally settled? Can we assume that valid, relevant, proportional, sourced material will be respected? --Steve (talk) 16:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, as a matter of fact, I promise that all future removals of "valid, relevant, proportional, sourced" material will be done respectfully. :-) Cheers, --EmbraceParadox (talk) 17:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Whatever differences of opinion, editorial, political, or otherwise - it is so much nicer to work with someone with a sense of humor :-) Cheers, --Steve (talk) 06:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Once again Jemmy has deleted the criticism section along with the reference. In the edit summary, he accuses me of disruptive behavior and threatend to initiate Administrative actions against me. I welcome any chance to bring impartial third party expertise to this issue. I have not been disruptive. The section in question was put in the article long ago as part of a consensus. It is a valid, proportional, appropriate entry for the article and has referenced source material. The value and purpose of the section for an encyclopedia article of this kind has been made clear on this page. The constant removal is the disruption. The attacks on me are unwarranted. This is the second time in a row that Jemmy has done this without even a brief note on this discussion page. I invite anyone to look at WP:DISRUPT and see whose actions best fit Wikipedia's policy. --Steve (talk) 05:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Greetings, editors. Using a large pull-quote from a figure not significant in the area is rather undue weight for such a short article, but Branden is a notable thinker, the material is reliably sourced, and I believe is of interest to our readers who might immediately dismiss the phrase as logically contradicting. I do hope we can set aside this dispute and agree on a version similar to the current one. Regards, Skomorokh 14:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Karl Marx is much more notable, and the material cited now is more substantial and relevant, being entirely about Proudhon and not a few lines in an article about something else, and also timely, being written in the same period, not merely pointing out the obvious a century after the fact. So why do we need the Branden quote at all? (The "rebuttal" is also now invalid, but we'll get to that later in the unlikely event this version is not reverted.) --EmbraceParadox (talk) 17:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Of course Marx is more relevant, but that does not justify removing Branden; Branden's critique is more explicit and gives the reader a better idea of Proudhon's supposedly fallacious reasoning. The notion that the phrase is formally suspect is likely to occur to readers of the article, who will want properly sourced analysis from notable figures. Regards, Skomorokh 19:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Karl Marx is much more notable, and the material cited now is more substantial and relevant, being entirely about Proudhon and not a few lines in an article about something else, and also timely, being written in the same period, not merely pointing out the obvious a century after the fact. So why do we need the Branden quote at all? (The "rebuttal" is also now invalid, but we'll get to that later in the unlikely event this version is not reverted.) --EmbraceParadox (talk) 17:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- Is it? I mean "theft, as a forcible violation of property, presupposes the existence of property." This is clear. Supposing a hypothetical person who did not find this clear, does explaining the logical and genetic interdependency of concepts acutally clarify anything? No, of course it doesn't, and obviously it was never supposed to. Instead, the example of "property is theft" was supposed to clarify this philosophical assertion, not the other way around! --EmbraceParadox (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Proposed merger
Please see Talk:What Is Property?
Table of contents
Is there any way we can get rid of this? Right now, it looks absurd: the TOC follows the majority of the content. I added a section heading, "Background", after the first two paragraphs -- just to move the TOC up, where it makes more sense to be. Someone removed it. Fine by me, it was just a hack. But there has to be some way to get rid of the TOC? Anyone? —Jemmytc 21:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- The magic incantation is __NOTOC__ --EmbraceParadox (talk) 14:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Literal Contradiction Section
The material from Marx fits the section well. I restored the material from Branden since it gives added authority and a kind of balance. And because it is valid, appropriate, sourced material that should not have been removed. There is no requirement that a criticism be from the same historical period, particularly when it refers to the logical soundness of the phrase. Nor is the Marx quote any more relevant - both are references to the exact same phrase. I shifted to this new Talk page section since it is now clear that the criticism is about the phrase and not "Objectivist Critique". --Steve (talk) 18:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)