User talk:Jnc

Old stuff moved to:

• Ship names to User_talk:Jnc/Ships
• Village Pump stuff to User_talk:Jnc/VP
• Edit Count Table stuff to User_talk:Jnc/EditCount

• Old stuff from 2003 in User_talk:Jnc/2003
• Old stuff from the first half of 2004 in User_talk:Jnc/2004A
• Old stuff from the second half of 2004 in User_talk:Jnc/2004B
• Old stuff from the first half of 2005 in User_talk:Jnc/2005A
• Inactive stuff from the secondt half of 2005 in User_talk:Jnc/2005B

Other Inactive Stuff

Moved to User_talk:Jnc/2005B because of Talk: page bloat.

Active Stuff

Akhenaten Aten

Hi Noel, you asked about my removal of "Aten's cult was the target of considerable official hostility after that." from the bottom of Akhenaten. I felt it was not only superfluous (covered by "the Aten cult he had founded almost immediately fell out of favor." earlier in the para) but rather weak given abandonment of Akhetaten, Tutankhaten's name change etc. And the sentence disrupted the flow of the paragraph about how Aten fell out of favour.

And though there's more to be said about Smenkhare, Tutankhamun and Ay's attitudes to the Amun and Aten cults (eg Smenkhare may have intensified persecution of Amunism; Tutankhamun and Ay may have been Atenists who reverted to Amun only for public show), I didn't want to go into the (murky) details. Rd232 11:26, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Protocol

Hello. I don't really have any ideas on the computer-related protocol pages. Apparently protocol comes from a Greek phrase meaning first leaf and refers to the first draft of a treaty. What I had thought of as the primary meaning was the ettiquete of diplomacy, but apparently that's not the original meaning. Maybe a protocol disambiguation page should have one line that points, not to protocol (treaty) but simply to treaty, with an explanation that that's one of the meanings of the word. Treaties are of course products of dimplomacy, so maybe protocol (diplomacy) is ambiguous. But even so I suspect protocol (diplomacy) is far more likely to be construed as being about the ettiquette of formal diplomatic encounters than about treaties, so for now I'd go with that. If experts in that field join Wikipedia, then maybe we'll do better. How 'bout something like this:

---

Protocol is derived from the Greek words προτο-, meaning first, and κολλα, meaning glue, and originally meant the first leaf of a bound volume.

• A protocol is the orininal draft of a transaction, negotiation, or agreement, and by extension, a protocol is a treaty. See treaty.
• A protocol is a detailed record of the procedure and results of a scientific experiment. In particular, see protocol (medicine).
• Protocol comprises the ettiquette and rules of formal ceremonial state occasions involving heads of state, ambassadors, and the like. See protocol (diplomacy).
• blah blah blah blah ..... protocol (computing)
• Network protocol
• Communications protocol
• Protocol (cryptography)
• etc., etc.

{{disambig}}

Michael Hardy 01:17, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing

Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:

• Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
• Multi-Licensing Guide
• Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Option 1

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

OR

Option 2

I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions to any [[U.S. state]], county, or city article as described below:

{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace "{{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}}" with "{{MultiLicensePD}}". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

Two State Solution

Noel, thank you for working on this page. Your efforts are greatly appreciated. Unfortunately some inaccuracies remains.

The Peel Commission and 1947 Partition Plan proposed "internationalized" zones to go with the Jewish and Muslim zones. The international zones would have accomplished two goals: side step the issue of who gets Jerusalem, and place Jerusalem and some quantity of territory under the control of European (Christian) countries. The Christians being the only Abrahamic religion without a significant population in the area. (A demographic situation that continues to develop as Muslim Arabs attack Christian Arabs (http://www.cathnews.com/news/404/37.php). These zones were strenously rejected by the Jews and Muslims. The internationalization of the zones is a key element that should be reflected in the article.

The form of a two state solution is not clear, neither is it clear what land areas it will encompass. Jordan itself is 60%+ Palestinian and may find itself drawn in a "solution". This text:

Territories that Israel captured in the West Bank and Gaza during the Six-Day War would become a new Palestinian state. Their Palestinian Arab inhabitants, as well as Arabs in the world-wide Palestinian exodus, would be given citizenship by the new state. Arab citizens of present-day Israel would likely have the choice of staying with Israel, or becoming citizens of the new Palestine.

Should be removed or augmented with other envisioned outcomes.

It appears that President Bush will allow a two state solution that places significant Jewish population centers located in areas captured in the Six Day War to become part of Israel. The outcome is far from clear at this point. Depending upon the Palestinian Authority's decision and effectiveness in fighting terrorism, the fence may over time become a de facto and perhaps even a de jure border. It is not impossible that a three state solution could arise Gaza/Hamas, Israel, and some portion of the West Bank PLO.

So much is unclear. The uncertainity should be reflected in the article rather than the current "a two state solution will look like this". Lance6Wins 22:33, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Edit summaries

Here are your comments and my reply from my user page.

I'm afraid that is not realistic in my case. I am engaged in a huge project to make the United Kingdom menu a complete set of all relevant articles, or as near as I can get it. I have made thousands of edits in a month - largely doing other people's work for them. I consider this to be a very valuable project, but I am not prepared to make it even more time consuming. I note what my edits are when they are sensitive. Philip 23:50, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I usually tick the "minor edit" box for minor edits. I may have forgotten a few times because I am fallible like anyone else. I do provide good edit summaries where appropriate; in fact I have made 23 in the last 24 hours. On numerous occasions I have had to prune them to make them fit within the 30 word or so limit. I think I am actually well above average among Wikipedians in this regards. "Minor edit" really is enough of a description for a minor edit, and the page you linked to merely says that providing further details for minor edits would be, "nice even then". Well I agree, but I don't have infinite time, and I am hardly alone in not doing it - and I am making more edits than almost anyone at the moment, so I have more time to lose.

I will try extra hard to make sure that I never omit to follow these practices, but I am not going to change them. Philip 03:18, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

African American

I usually prefer to respond as you do -- on the poster's talk page. But if someone doesn't yet have a page set up, then I respond on mine.

Actually, I wasn't "sticking up" for RickK. I don't know him, have never (to my recollection) had an exchange w/him. Just thanking him for restoring the talk threads for AA. That other guy's a real jerk.

"Some" isn't necessary, because you're speaking of African Americans as a collective. The same is true for the use of "and" instead of "or." What about in my case, as I can "claim" all three? The use of "or" would not be appropriate. You're speaking of the whole, them as a collective group, with members among them who belong to a particular subset. (Ever taken a logics class? Simple, finite math.) deeceevoice 17:17, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Understood, but in an article devoted to African Americans, we are, indeed speaking of the group as a collective -- and not of individuals. When you say "or," that means one, but not two, or two, but not three. Yet, there are many African Americans who fit all three categories -- so, the more appropriate word is "and," speaking of the collective. Among African Americans collectively, there are all three heritages represented (no either/or implied -- just a whole characterizing a whole). An exercise in basic logic: "There are red, orange and purple balls in the boxes." Does that mean that every, single box has at least one of each color? One might assume that -- but no, not necessarily. But it does mean that in the boxes, regarded all together, there are balls of all three colors there? Yep. As I said, if one approaches the statement based simply on what it says (not what one might erroneously infer), it is completely correct. Well, enough of that! (I hated logics class.) deeceevoice 19:34, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

P.S. I went back and deleted "Many," because that confuses the issue; the sentence is more correct without it. Perhaps you see my point now? Anyway, I think you're probably as bored with this by now as I am! :-p deeceevoice 19:46, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How to comment on a specific contrib on a talk page

This is to explain my reformatting of two of your contribs on Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard.
(In progress. While it looks like you're probably off-line, i'm not going to rush this & make a mess of it; this prelim is to let you know i think you deserve an explanation & will provide it fairly promptly.)
--Jerzy(t) 00:04, 2005 Jan 27 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure i understand what you had in mind: each of the two times, you were commenting on contribs by A that B (and perhaps others) had already commented on, and not commenting on B's comment. So you put your comment directly under A's, and indented it further than B's in order to avoid the impression that B was commenting on your comment.
There's a lot of logic to that, but it's a bad idea for a number of reasons.

1. If others follow your logic, and in turn want to comment on the same contrib you did, the first of them should post above your comment, still further indented. The second should post above both of you, yet further indented. There are times when its hard to avoid indenting far enough that the column gets indecently narrow, but the situation we are discussing is not one of them: What is normal on WP is that the first person (B) to respond to A indents, and everyone else commenting on A's contrib indents to the same extent B did, following the last person who responded to A. And no matter how many multiple responses a single contrib gets, that doesn't push unnecessarily far to the right.
2. Those commenting on A's contrib usually have read all the earlier contribs before framing their own comment, lest they waste time being repetitive, and that's a good thing. It's also a good thing if the later readers read those responses in order: then when they read C's, D's, and your contribs, they've just read B's (as C, D, and you did), and don't have to waste time wondering why C, D, and you are so dullwitted as to bring up these minor points after having overlooked the major points that should be obvious to anyone whose contrib is worth reading. But if everyone formats it your way, later readers either read the comments in the reverse order of their occurrence, or go to extra trouble to go down to the end of the comments on A's contrib, and repeatedly read down and scroll back up to read the next one. (And then scroll back down over what they just read.)
3. If some do it your way and some not (nearly all in fact don't), the only way to read the comments on A's contrib in order is to search thru the datestamps to deduce the proper order.
4. In fact, in that mixed-method case, the effect of being the last to have used your method is the same as being the one rudest one forcing your way to the front of the line and yelling, "No, read mine first."

So i trust you'll understand why i adjusted your formating & positioning.
Thanks,
--Jerzy(t) 02:58, 2005 Jan 27 (UTC)

Thanks for response, J,
It doesn't seem to me these cases were like what you're talking abt, but let me comment on that anyway:
The case you stated, using normal WP style

• Any fool can see X.

And Y follows from that.

So we all should Z

--User:A

• I've indented this to show i'm responding to what A said; specifically Z is an unsuitable response to the realities of X and Y. --User:B
• I'm indenting this to the same level that B did, to make it clear that like B, i'm responding to A (not to B). There's no reason to consider Z, because X just isn't true. -- Anon.

The case you want to distinguish that from, using normal WP style

• Any fool can see X.

And Y follows from that.

So we all should Z

--User:A

• I've indented this to show i'm responding to what A said; specifically Z is an unsuitable response to the realities of X and Y. --User:B
  • I'm indenting this a level further that B did, to make it clear that unlike B, i'm not responding to A (but to B). B is right to some extent, but made an important mistake. -- Anon.

More elaborate example of WP style: I nominate Bad article for deletion, on grounds of mopery and dopery. --A

• Delete for reason 1. --B
  • Reason 1 violates the Pauli exclusion principle. --C
    • My art teacher says it doesn't. --B
      • Art teachers rock! --D
    • My gym teacher says it doesn't, and everyone knows that gym teachers rock. --D
  • Reason 1 violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but there are better reasons than that for deleting. --E
• Keep for reason 2. --C
• Delete for reason 3. --D
  • D is a fool -- C.
    • I am not. --D
    • Everyone knows he is, but he still gets to vote. --A

This is always sufficient to distinguish the relationship among comments, subject to the restriction that every comment addresses at most one other comment. (Note above that D made two comments, rather than trying to make one that applied to both B's and C's comments.)
The rule sounds more complicated than it is: two comments apply to the same comment if they are both equally indented, and no comment that is less indented falls between them.
VfD debates tend to make good examples, because it's so clear that a vote is a comment on the nomination, and it's usually pretty clear that which vote or comment is being commented on; breakdowns are usually the reuslt of commetning on two comments simultaneously.

--Jerzy(t) 06:17, 2005 Jan 27 (UTC)

Templates

Thanks for the note, and for the help with templates. I wish I could help more. I tried to get bot approval to help with clearing templates agreed to be deleted, but one admin fairly aggressively combatted it (see Wikipedia talk:Bots#NetBot request). If you can add any comments, or perhaps approach that admin in someway, that would let me do more (hopefully so that all you need to do is hit the delete key :) ). -- Netoholic @ 02:01, 2005 Jan 30 (UTC)

Admin oversight of template deletion is essential. No bots. — Xiong熊talk* 04:33, 2005 May 13 (UTC)

Admin noticeboard

Thanks for all your archiving work, it's much appreciated. silsor 15:33, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks again for all the archiving work you do. silsor 17:21, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)

And again! silsor 04:49, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

New Mathematics Wikiportal

I noticed you've done some work on Mathematics articles. I wanted to point out to you the new Mathematics Wikiportal- more specifically, to the Mathematics Collaboration of the Week page. I'm looking for any math-related stubs or non-existant articles that you would like to see on Wikipedia. Additionally, I wondered if you'd be willing to help out on some of the Collaboration of the Week pages.

I encourage you to vote on the current Collaboration of the Week, because I'm very interested in which articles you think need to be written or added to, and because I understand that I cannot do the enormous amount of work required on some of the Math stubs alone. I'm asking for your help, and also your critiques on the way the portal is set up.

Please direct all comments to my user-talk page, the Math Wikiportal talk page, or the Math Collaboration of the Week talk page. Thanks a lot for your support! ral315 02:54, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

Subpage redirects

Hello Noel, could you point me to the discussion or voting where it was decided to keep the old subpage redirects? I would like to inspect the old arguments before proposing any policy changes. Since it was you who added the "keep 7" to the list [1], I hope you could explain the rationale behind it. Any pros/cons I can think of:

Pros:

1. There may be major history that needs to be kept for copyright reasons
2. Some external websites may link to a subpage redirect

Cons:

1. Clutters search results
2. Clutters "What links here"
3. Takes up (little) space in database
4. Can encourage newbies to use subpages or create new subpage redirects
5. Can confuse editors who happen to find a web of bogus redirects with convoluted history

Now, my opposition to Pros:

1. Obsolete histories can be merged or moved to talk
2. Enough time has passed since the conversion away from subpages, websites should have adapted already. Not our problem, if someone has not updated his site for years.
3. Because redirects are cheap, deletion of them should be cheap too, since they can be recreated with minimum fuss.

I also find your interpretation of the various keep/delete rules way too rigid. The text says "avoid deletion", not "under no circumstances delete". Surely we can delete a subpage redirect, if there is a rough consensus to delete it. Policy is formulated that way in VfD every day. Problem is that there are not enough participants in RfD to override old questionable policies by voting for a new de-facto policy. Currently RfD is the backwater of Wikipedia deletion.

I guess I'll be bold and update "keep 7" to allow deletion of historyless historical artifacts and obviously temporary subpages (like /Temp), if no objections are raised. I'd appreciate your thought on this before proposing this on talk of WP:RFD. About the CSD rules, I'm not sure I'm bold enough to tweak them just like that, it seems that even insignificant changes to them cause objections from the "keep everything" crowd. jni 09:03, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Military history naming conventions

See:Wikipedia_talk:Military_Collaboration_of_the_week#Naming_conventions. Perhapse there is a page which we could draw this subject up as a guide line. Any ideas? -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:29, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Further reading/References

Hello and thanks for making me aware of your rationale for dividing the article reference section into two---Further reading and References. The only reason I collapsed them into one sec was my perceived notion of "std wkp format", and to keep the number of "auxiliary secs"* as low as possible (which leads to more concise articles, IMO making them more readable). However, I very much see your point, especially after reading your comment at my talk page. :)

Perhaps a reasonable compromise would be to use a References sec only, but to list the references under separate italicised** subheadings (not subsecs---they also clutter up the TOC & article IMO; even worse than separate secs), my suggestions being Further reading: and Academic sources:. How about that? Anyway, I will certainly work through (some of) "my own" articles (those on my watchlist, that is) in order to split the refs into said categories. --Wernher 21:17, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

(* By "auxiliary secs" I mean those "std" secs like See also, References, and External links.)
(** I have noticed that some other contributors use italics for non-subsec "subheadings".)

Minor edits

Regarding your post on my Talk Page.

I have not read the link you provided and have no plans to: if you can't be bothered to do more than post a link and say "read this," then I can't be bothered to read it. It's the basic principle of proportionality in action. If you feel I'm in error on some point and you want me to acknowledge or correct it, it's up to you to tell me what you're talking about, not make me guess your intent.

In any case, if you feel how and why I mark edits distorts, impedes, or abuses process, or is otherwise a roadblock in the path of improving Wikipedia, I invite you to file an RFC, where you can — and, indeed, are required to — describe in as much detail as you like where I've gone wrong. If it's not that important, then please stop bothering me. --Calton | Talk 07:31, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

P.S.: I've taken the liberty of nowiki-ing a {{disambig}} and fixing some DVD/D template tags on this page.

Three unrelated questions

On Wikipedia talk:Redirects for deletion#Automagically, you mention the little pop-up, but I couldn't find it. Where can I find it?

I replied to your replies further down on that page. I'm curious to see a reason, but I can live without it. I'll just add VfD to such pages and won't care what happens afterwards.

Regarding New Stuff: Are you aware of the {{usercomment}} template?

Sebastian 08:50, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

RfC re: Wareware's blatant racism

Just stopping by to thank you for taking the time to weigh in on the above-referenced matter -- and also for stopping by my talk page: "He was so far over the line there that the curvature of the earth had removed it from view." That gave me a chuckle. I guess there's humor to be found in almost anything. Peace 2 u. deeceevoice 21:32, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for the note. Actually, I didn't reformat the RfC. SlimVirgin kindly took the time to do so (I'm having hardware and software issues that I must attend do) because, apparently, that's the format that is required in order to have one's RfC considered -- I suppose because it's a way of providing verifiable documentation for each offense. The last time I checked, there were, I think, four or five people who'd signed on and none endorsing Wareware's account. I note with interest, though, a user named Pharlap is going out of his way to make excuses for Wareware and has started his own campaign against me. And get this: he's a black man. (Well, biracial.) He's actually even called me "racist." But has he bothered to sign on against Wareware? Nope. Go figure. I'm not worried, though. While, yes, I've lost patience with people on the site and not always been nice about it, I've never (and wouldn't ever) used racial slurs; it's just not something I do (or think). *sigh* Wikipedia is getting to be more trouble than it's worth. But, anyway, thanks again for your kind words. Peace. deeceevoice 02:17, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I may be missing your point, but a key element in my RfC is not only Wareware's racism, but the fact that he has actually stalked me from article to article, discussion thread to discussion thread in order to attack me. His attacks have been premeditated, purposeful and systematic. Are you saying you think the examples go beyond the scope of that, or that you don't think the stalking issue is an important one? deeceevoice 03:17, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why the posting rule?

I was curious as to why you have the unusual rule about posting above the last section? The software supports a feature for adding comments to the very end of Talk pages (the "+" sign next to "edit this page") — people who use this feature may never even have a chance to read your instructions before they post. — Matt Crypto 17:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My request to edit MediaWiki messages

Instead of adding a link to MediaZilla, you could link to Wikipedia:Bug reports so those unused to bugzilla won't be alarmed. Thanks!

BTW I've suggested changes to Wikipedia:Copyrights at Wikipedia talk:Copyrights (and another person has requested an interlanguage link). Probably there are some other channels to go through for such changes? What do I do? Thanks for any info. -- Paddu 08:16, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This, that, and the other

1. Your system (including the 3rd H0 tag, "New Stuff") fails when the sidebar link "Post a New Comment" is used; in some skins, I gather, there is a "[+]" tab with the same effect. I don't say you are right or wrong; I merely mention it. Perhaps you have a method for detecting careless messengers.

2. I carelessly dumped "Down the memory hole" below "New Stuff". Since my fear that it would quickly be deleted by some black bag team has abated, I suggest you may wish to delete the box. You may like to replace it with a link to User:Xiong/Minitrue, if you feel that preserves Talk.

3. Would you consider a Charter Convention? — Xiong熊talk 02:21, 2005 Apr 12 (UTC)

Users

In fact I'm using {{subst:user|Username}}. I think that I got it from the Wikipedia:Vandalism in progress page. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I've never tried it any other way... Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

{User} template

Hi, is there any particular reason you are using this with "subst" (e.g on WP:PP)? You don't need to, and it just causes page bloat. (The bloat on WP:VIP was so bad I was moved to change the instructions there to remove the "subst".) Same goes for {Article}, of course. Noel (talk) 21:42, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'll bear that in mind and convert to using templates directly. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:49, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for answering on someone else's talk page. You may see Wikipedia:Transclusion costs and benefits for why subst: is preferable at times. Ignore this message if you already knew this. -- Sundar (talk · contributions) 16:15, May 10, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for enlightening me. -- Sundar 05:31, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Archival

By the way, your Talk page has grown so large that I must reload it 4 or 5 times before I can add a new comment. You might wish to consider archival by your chosen means. — Xiong熊talk 20:16, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC)

Please see my Talk. — Xiong熊talk 22:12, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC)

Links to disambiguation pages

Linking to disambiguation pages makes monitoring the addition of new inbound links difficult. Right now, linking to fish (disambiguation) is:

• Fish
• User:Jnc
• Wikipedia:Links to (disambiguation) pages
• FISH (redirect page)

If it wasn't for Fish, there'd be one link, the redirect.

So, a collection of all the pages you've ever edited is nice, but if you link through a external http link I don't have to keep checking why there's a link coming from your page to a disambiguation page. I changed your page to be a link to WhatLinksHere because I assumed you were interested in maintaining the inbound links rather than a trophy collection of edits (there's a little link in the top-right corner called "my contributions" for that). If you must have a categorised collection, use http links to minimize inbound link pollution.

Also, please sign all entries with ~~~~. Thanks! Josh Parris ✉ 05:50, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

VA Historical Society

Thanks! BTW, if you like the talk box on my user page and talk page, I can make one for you in about 3 minutes, gratis. Mark in Richmond. Vaoverland 22:48, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

Superfluous/VfD template removal

Hi there! This has come up on TFD twice this week, and it seems prudent to just get rid of it as it's about 10% of template namespace... on Bot Requests, you say you'd be happy to help. Glad to hear that! Maybe you could talk to Kevin Rector and/or AllyUnion? They're the two foremost experts on bots that come to mind. It seems nobody much reads the BR page anyway :) HTH, Radiant_* 11:29, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation Style

There's a survey you may be interested in - Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation/Style#Survey Josh Parris ✉ 02:50, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

The Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat

Hi, I was updating a voice actors page, and this animated was listed, I double checked with imdb and it was actually titled "The Twisted Adventures of Felix the Cat", so I moved the page, and fixed all the wiki links, except for the one on your user page. Just thought I would drop you a note to let you know.

<>Who 20:46, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• • Actually, I was pretty sure I remembered it as the "adventures", I just doubled checked with IMDB. The main hits I got for "tales" was in VHS/DVD release. I looked at a few other sources (dont have them handy atm) and they all showed "adventures" for the series. I will look more into it if you like, as long as its correctly listed I dont mind it being either one.

Who?¿? 18:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Well, unfortunately, after further review, although the majority of my sources, and memory, referred to it as "Adventures" the official offical felix site has it listed as "Tales". Unless for some odd reason they changed it over the years. Every reliable source I could find showed it as Adventures. I should have proposed the move, I was in a bit of a hurry working on something else at the time, still have a lot to get used to on wiki. I am not an admin, so I believe it would be in the best interest of wiki to revert it, if you aren't opposed. Any thoughts? <>Who?¿? 23:39, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

00Axx

Hi, why do you want to keep 00Axx as a redirect?

It's not speedyable, and redirects are cheap. That would likely have been its fate if I had sent it to VfD anyway. Denni☯ 23:08, 2005 Jun 3 (UTC)

Archiving WP:AN

I would be fine with doing this. I follow the AN pages and do have a fair bit of time on my hands. Though if anyone else really wants the the job they can have it. - SimonP 21:37, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

"Disambiguated primary topic disambiguation"

Hi,
You may have noticed that, following some discussion, this idea of yours showed up at Wikipedia:Disambiguation. Now someone wants to remove it, and honestly, I don't see any good reasons why, according to protocol, it should be there. I suggest that you either provide a link to the discussion we had over this, or go to talk and defend the idea yourself. --Smack (talk) 18:37, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tony O

I just used the move function. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "microsoft specific characters" AndyL 11:36, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wal-Mart Protection

It looks like activity on the talk page has died down. The newly-registered user was likely the anon IP doing all of the POV deletion. I posted a message on the user's talk page and on the Wal-Mart talk page and haven't received a response. Perhaps the user has moved on. Are you willing to unprotect the page to see what happens? Feco 19:34, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Algaesave

Hi Noel: Yes, I did check to see if the article had history that was used in any current article. Its history contains just one material edit and I made a textual comparison of that version with the current Algae article. There were no significant duplications, which is why I stated "No part of its historical contents appears in Algae" in the deletion log summary. Thanks for keeping an eye on things.—Theo (Talk) 19:45, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

FlowerofChivalry

Hi Noel, thanks for the heads-up. I know nothing about the subject so I'm not going to get involved, beyond asking people to stop cursing at each other. I'll tread even more cautiously now. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:11, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your input

If you have any input on the Flowerofchivalry/Iris Chang/Nanking issue please don't call the other user names on my talk page. If you want to, there's some questions you could answer, same ones I asked FoC, if you like. I've agreed to act as an advocate for Flowerofchivalry, so I can't really express an opinion. I'll try to assess the situation and advise, as well as try to help everyone else understand the point he's trying to make. It seems pretty important to him, so it stands to reason that it will be important to someone else too. If he has a valid point, I'll help him express it. If he has an invalid point, I'll try to help him express it, and try to help him comprehend why the community thinks he's wrong.

I absolutely don't care what happened prior to now, except as it helps me understand the issues as expressed by everyone. My only interest is in creating an unbiased factual encyclopedia. I think that the consensus process works when all parties try to make it work, and when it fails everyone should just be a little nicer and try a little harder to understand each other. Thanks for your help.Pedant 04:03, 2005 Jun 27 (UTC)

Vinnie (Vincent) Richards

Hi, I can understand you changing Vinnie to Vincent in the list of Pro championships, but are you going to do it for *all* the players, so that Pancho Gonzales becomes Richardo Gonzales, Fred Perry becomes Frederick Perry, etc.? Vinnie Richards was *always* known as Vinnie when he was playing, never as Vincent except in extremely formal lists. I personally think that the common names of all the players should be left as they are. Is Pancho Segura gonna become Franciso Segura? No one would know who he is.... Hayford Peirce 1 July 2005 04:43 (UTC)

Okie, I see where the confusion arises. I've just done a Google, and there are about 850 references to "Vinnie" and 530 for "Vincent", which is suggestive but not conclusive. I have two large encyclopedias of tennis, one an "Official" one from the USTA of about 25 years ago, the other the even bigger new one by Bud Collins called Total Tennis. The first one has more stats than write-ups. It refers to Richards, as far as I can tell, as Vincent. Throughout Total Tennis, except in a couple of tournament results, Richards is always called Vinnie, with many references to him in various articles. Frank deFord's biography, Big Bill Tilden, has many references to Richards, always as Vinnie. When I was young, I knew people who had known Richards, and played against him, and they always referred to him as Vinnie. I don't know enough about him to know what he called himself. But I certainly won't argue with you about this if you want to change all the Vinnies to Vincent.... Hayford Peirce 1 July 2005 18:45 (UTC)

Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen

Hi, I wondered why Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen wansnt showing up on my watchlist. It has been blocked since 20 June. I think some of the dispute has died down, and request you remove the protection. Thanks <>Who?¿? 04:33, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Done. Noel 18:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the unprotection, of course, my luck, the same user went back to blanking the talk page, I already reported it on WP:AIV. Just thought I would let you know, I kinda feel bad now :) . <>Who?¿? 03:21, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

If you didn't really want to archive the Talk: page (it was only 54K or so, not very large), let me know and I'll move it back (you can't, the replacement now has edit history)

Yea, I really didn't want it archived, still had things in discussion, was just hoping it would actually do some good, seeing this some of the discussion was about him. If you don't mind, you can move it back, now that you have the rest of his ip range blocked. Thanks. ∞Who?¿? 20:49, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Butch Buchholz

Thanks, this whole "redirect" thing can be very confusing. I wrote the new article and thought that I had fixed the Earl (Butch) Buchholz article to be redirected to the new one. And then thought I had deleted the appropriate thingee. I'm still not clear if *anyone* can delete a redirect under what seem like appropriate circumstances, especially when the article in question also seems like it might be deleted.... Sorry for any confusion I've caused. And thanks for your help. Hayford Peirce 23:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Libertarianism

Hey, now that the reason that Libertarianism is being reverted all the time is blocked for another 24 hours, is it strictly necessary for us to have that page locked? - Ta bu shi da yu 05:47, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh... forgot I'd done this... - Ta bu shi da yu 05:58, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, Alfrem (talk · contribs) is now permanently banned from editing the article. We'll still have to deal with his sockpuppets, but we might as well identify them now that we have the attention of ArbCom and a favorable decision against him. I would suggest unlocking it- we have some legitimate disputes that need resolution. --Malathion 23:02, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Deleted page

Heya Noel, I deleted a few of them, but only because they had been around for several days and I figured the editor who kept recreating it would have gotten bored and moved on... I guess I didn't want to see the page and up on anyone's random article page. Sorry if I've made a mistake here!

Out of interest, which page was it? I can restore and reprotect. I think there is a tag to be used for such pages. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:54, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Re: Magdoff and the VENONA book

You mentioned here that you had available to you another secondary source reference as to Magdoff's activities. On the contrary to your implicit assertions, I believe this would be very valuable. Would you please cite the instance in which he is named, including the page number and relevant footnotes, etc.? Thank you very much. --TJive 16:13, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Would you take a look at User:Nobs/Magdoff and make any edits that seem necessary. Any criticism or help you can do is greatly appreciated. thx. nobs 16:55, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Andover alumni

I was looking through the Andover "famous alumni" and didn't recognize many of them. The unrecognizable ones also don't have their own Wiki listing. Perhaps alumni who haven't yet warranted a page should be deleted. Thanks <John> — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.117.11 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Saddam Hussien and Al-Qaeda conspiracy theory

This has already been discussed at length. See: [[2]].

And do not poke moved pages, (i.e. change "redirect" to "Redirect") it prevents the page from being moved back. Even worse, people might assume that this is intentional, and that would be considered disruptive and uncivil. I'm assuming in good faith that this was not your intent. Kevin Baas^{talk: new} 02:00, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

No. The move was based on a policy established by Wikipedia_talk:Conspiracy_theory/archive2. Kevin Baas^{talk: new} 20:19, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the note on my talk page. I agree the renaming thing is probably overblown right now. I'm ok with the name as it is though I think the other is more accurate. --csloat 18:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

POV Harry Magdoff fork

Jnc, if you haven't already, could you take a look at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Conspiracy allegations about Harry Magdoff? Thanks. --TJive 19:17, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

Number redirects

I see no profit to contradicting Radiant, but there does seem to be a small amount of history to the big number redirects, mentioning a system of number names called Rowlett. Septentrionalis 21:12, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

VfD Cat:Soviet spies

Please see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Category:Soviet spies. Thank you. nobs 20:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Reread your comments on the problem of Categorizing Soviet spies. I'm something of newbie with limited technical knowhow, so I'm not sure what or how a Metacategory works. Perhaps Soviet spies could be renamed, sorted out, and integrated into this Category:Soviet and Russian intelligence agencies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nobs01 (talk • contribs) 16:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)nobs 17:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I think I can follow it the way you explained. Two questions: (1) what would be the appropriate time frame, wait til the Category survives the VfD? and (2) what about "operatives" as a temporary catchall, excluding Soviet nationals as Case Officers, perhaps leaving them in Category:NKVD? nobs 17:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I've created Category:Venona, which I think I screwed up. I'd like to make it a subcategory of Category:Espionage (this may help end some disputes leaving it outside "Soviet" references for now). Could you look at it and maybe fix whatever i screwed up. Thanks. nobs 03:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks alot, you're a life saver. I'm thinking of then within Category:Venona, creating subcategories Venona Appendix A, Venona Appendix B, Venona Appendix D etc (using Haynes & Klehr as a guide). This hopefully will end the contentious disputes about including so-and-so as a "Soviet spy" etc. What needs to be done eventually is sepatate KGB from GRU, since KGB has undergone so many reorganzations, whereas GRU is still very much alive and in existence. And eventually there will be a need for an SVD grouping too. Thanks again. nobs 04:17, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

1000000000000 and 1000000000000000000

Thank you for deleting 1000000000000; it's nonsense. However, the more nonsensical 1000000000000000000 still exists, even after its VFD with 13 votes to delete to 5 to redirect. Can you look into this, please? --A D Monroe III 01:05, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Victor Perlo

Let me call your attention to Victor Perlo. I would like to separate Victor Perlo's personal biography from Perlo group. He made some interesting quote's in the late 1990s, for example, "The Gorbachev-Yeltsin betrayal, which destroyed the USSR..." etc. Let me know if you are interested in collaborating. Thanks. nobs 21:01, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Talk:AIDS_conspiracy_theories

I hate to bug you, but there seems to be a contingent of folks who are denying even the existence of a dispute about the appropriate title for the article... keep in mind that these people are saying that anyone who says that the article title is currently non-optimal are doing so in bad faith. Care to come by and weigh-in? Your suggestions have been the best so far, IMO. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:00, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Chip Berlet

Noel, the backdrop to the problem at Chip Berlet is that User:Rangerdude has been waging almost a campaign of harassment against User:Willmcw and User:Cberlet for weeks. I don't know the details, but it has been vicious and irrational. It culminated in Rangerdude posting an RfC against Chip and Will, which went decisively against Rangerdude: see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Cberlet & Willmcw. (And he has since posted another RfC against User:FuelWagon simply because FuelWagon supported Chip: see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/FuelWagon.) Now, it appears out of revenge, Rangerdude is trying to edit more criticism into Chip Berlet — not just the Horowitz material, but he wants to rewrite the article — and is elsewhere trying to have Chip's published journalism ruled as an inappropriate source for Wikipedia articles. It's a bad situation, and I for one would appreciate it if the page could stay protected until we figure out what to do about it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:38, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Also, Rama endorsed the protection in case you didn't notice his comment. [3] SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:34, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

Noel, please assume good faith. Jayjg saw it come up on his watchlist several times being reverted, so he protected it. As for the Horowitz section, I agree with you, and TJive and I have agreed a compromise, with Rangerdude the only one not in agreement. However, there's a larger issue, and that's Rangerdude's desire to rewrite the whole page, which he shouldn't be doing as part of a vendetta. It's WP:POINT at the very least, and could cause legal problems because Rangerdude has openly declared his hostility toward the subject. That's why I'd like the page to stay protected so the other editors can agree on what balance of criticism to positive material is appropriate, and can cooperate in making sure no inappropriate criticism is inserted. Will you allow it to stay protected if TJive agrees? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:39, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Noel. I'd appreciate any advice. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:01, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

The page was on my watchlist, and I saw it reverted yet again. Since there was an edit-war going on, I simply protected it. Early on in my admin career I reverted a page and protected, and was soundly excoriated for doing so; since then it has been my policy to always protect the current version, regardless of what it is. Had I reverted first I would no doubt have been accused of favouring some other version. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:22, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your latest note, Noel. I think Nobs may have been supportive of Rangerdude, though I'm not certain of that. I'm considering going to the arbcom with the problem, but haven't decided for sure. In the meantime, the best thing would be to find an uninvolved, completely neutral, very good editor to keep an eye on the neutrality of the edits. I would normally suggest Willmcw, as he's excellent at solving NPOV problems, but Rangerdude has it in for him too (he seems to have it in for a lot of good editors). There's Mel Etitis but RD would probably reject him too. I'll try to think of someone tomorrow. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:56, August 9, 2005 (UTC)

List of people known by incredibly long title

_ _ Despite your very clever and fully justified talk title, which i thoroly enjoyed, "full name" is too far from having its primary meaning coincide with the intent of your list. Sophocles, Ataxerxes, and Mao Tse-tung are as much full names as the people so far on your list. There are lots of long titles, and as Lincoln implied of his legs, "too long" would mean reaching further down than to the floor. It needs (if it needs to exist at all) a title as long is it takes to not mislead people. With your title, it would be (since people, once they've seen the title and decided a name they think of qualifies, will ignore whatever you put at the top of the page (the first page of many, i expect), go looking for that name, and add it without looking back) an overwhelming task to keep cleaning out the people someone puts on it just for lacking a middle name -- or bcz the middle name is widely known, even if not mandatory.
_ _ As to need for the list to exist at all, your people are unlike people known by initials, or without their surnames, bcz those people may occasionally be

1. unreasonably hard to find in LoPbN, and
2. easier to find on the corresponding lists.

In contrast, no one would be significantly easier to find on your list than LoPbN: To find Henry xxx Thoreau, you just go to the end of all the Thoreau, Henry [no middle name] entries, and there they are, alpha by middle name. There is 10-to-four support for LoPbN as a navigational device. Your list sounds to me like a trivia game, and i'd bet on it being easy VfD bait.
_ _ I'm not going to be the one to VfD it if it has an accurate title, and if i do VfD, it will be on the separate ground that the only articles that could be written, and accurately described by that "full name" title, are rendered redundant by the existing LoPbN.
_ _ Have you considered People known by more than given and sur-name? I didn't propose that bcz a middle name is to my understanding a subsidiary part of a given name, but i would find that much less obviously wrong than "full name": the biggest problem with "full name" is that no one would say that someone lacking a middle name has no full name; in contrast, nearly anyone looking at that "more than" will expect that they need to know more about what kind of "more than" is intended: conscious unclarity is much more tolerable than the misplaced certainty "full name" would produce.
--Jerzy•t 23:57, 2005 August 17 (UTC)

Venona again

Please be advised the Venona list and all names of persons cited have been removed from the Venona project article proper as a good faith effort to de-politicize the subject and allow editors interested in the purely cryptographic aspects of Venona further developement of the page. However, Mr. Cberlet has returned from hiatus and recently inserted materials attacking the government's case against 171 individuals. I have proposed declaring the main Venona project article neutral of historical & political disputes, and those arguements be moved to Significance of Venona. Your comments or suggestions are welcome. nobs 00:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Will do. nobs 01:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I listed that Weinstein and Vasilliev book in VENONA or elsewhere as a reference though I don't believe it was cited. However, there was a dispute between the two mostly over the characterization of material related to Hiss which is a single point always played upon by the anti-revisionists (to label them respectfully), similar to how it is always heard that two editors of The Black Book of Communism dissociated themselves from a few remarks in the intro. Nothing substantive but broad smears.

Incidentally I have the "Battleground: Berlin" book but haven't looked through it much. --TJive 02:50, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Noel: Got Haunted Wood right here on my lap. thx. nobs 17:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Bentley

I'll do a search; I have a good idea where the whole may exist in the Silvermaster file & have been meaning to examine it (unsure if it's the whole, or just the page with her signature on), but I will check it out and get back in about 3 or 4 hours. nobs 21:46, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

For now you can see pg.6 PDF format [4] bottom of page for a clue where it is; right now I here the dinner bell ringing. nobs 22:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

This index [5] PDF format pgs. 7-9 gives a continuous narrative that includes all Bentley's testimonies, from her deposition to various Congressional hearings up to 1953, with comparisons and inconsistencies. (It relates to a lawsuit between the FBI & William H. Taylor in 1955, at which point the FBI pretty well screwed up the case, good defense lawyers were beginning to pick it apart). It does go into details of her depositions between 27-30 November 1945, (and you can just subtract out the SISS & HUAC hearings if need be). May be the closest thing to a continuous narrative in the Silvermaster file. Also the FBI site says there is Bentley material in the Rosenberg file, which is only 171 pgs. The full, original, deposition would be what's called a "FOIA Special Request", and you may have to pay for it, unless somebody already did and posted in the web. I'll keep looking. nobs 02:22, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, I believe she signed another deposition on 30 December 1945, but I'm only speaking from memory. And if you follow that index above, the whole file is only about 88 pages ("Resume of Facts" is a good read). nobs 02:22, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Here's the file #:30 November 1945, FBI file 65-14603. Checked all the .gov search engines, etc.; I dont' believe it's available in open source on the internet. nobs 19:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Also this section of the Silvermaster file [6] PDF format pgs. 86-93 (last 8 pgs) memo 24 August 1948 Ladd to the Director deals will specifics regarding the time of her defection and summary material. Interogations evidentally lasted from 7 November to 30 November, was approximately 500 pages in length, and I believe she signed a second statement on 30 December 1945, too. Is there person named specifically you are looking for, cause that I can locate. nobs 20:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

A word of thanks on the Bentley article. Eventually, someday, I'd like to revisit specifically the citations you discovered regarding the Remington v Bentley lawsuit, because this touches precisely on what the original, true definition of what McCarthyism is. Senator Homer Ferguson questioned Bentley on Remington, shortly after Bentley's sensational testimony at HUAC. Remington just happened to be the focus of the Senate's investigation when Bentley was called to testify, and Bentley ended up being sued over events which she had no control. Since that incident, and afterwards, with the experiences of Joseph McCarthy, Senate Rules have been revised to consider carefully witness rights before requiring them to testify (obviously Homer Ferguson is not Joe McCarthy). All this has its origins in "grandstanding" and media sensationalism, without considering the effects a powerful Senate Committee can have on a witnesse's life. At some point, this needs to be written about, but I got my hands full now with the Venona stuff. Thanks again. nobs 00:56, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Alexandras

Sorry I didn't respond to your message - been on holiday. Deb 20:29, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Japanese emperors

Response to your message User talk:Jefu. -Jefu 22:51, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Will do. Thanks for your help. -Jefu 04:30, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

By the way, I hadn't really thought of the fact that successive small edits to a page fills up the server because every copy is saved. Has anyone ever proposed the idea that successive edits by the same user should be consolidated into one edit to save on disk space? I know there may be a case where a user purposely wants to save intermmediate versions, but you could have a checkbox where you have to make that affirmative election to preserve the record. Just a thought. -Jefu 10:21, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

I finally noticed...

Nah, not really, it's just the I've aquired bigger responsibilities that require running from, so I've been hiding out here a bit. Still, good to see you too! Have a cup of tea and a some barnstars :) --fvw* 01:26, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

New Stuff

[Please add new stuff here - just stick in a =={Title}== header at the bottom after this one (which you may do in the edit window that comes up after you click on the [Edit] button next to this header). Please leave this header, etc, alone, though! Also, please sign all entries with ~~~~. Thanks! - JNC]

Hawaii

As you have done work with some monarchies, please take a look at this too. There's been a huge fuss lately over whether articles on Hawaii's monarchs are in the right location and there are some people who'd like to change the format used in naming the articles (e.g. one user wants to move the article Kamehameha I to Kamehameha I, King of Hawaii. We're having a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Hawaii/Manual of Style#Names of monarchs, and your views on the conflict would be welcome. Arrigo 13:09, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

History of the Internet

- Not sure how to find your talk page. Apparently moved.

Huh? Mosaic (web browser) clearly mentions both uSoft and Netscape, and Abbate's book mentions the Netscape connection too.

-Going the wrong way. Mosaic pre-dated Netscape by a long way. Just go to Netscape or MSIE, click on help, chick on about, and there is the tribute to Mosaic. Plus, I was there. If you look at the webpages on Mosaic they claim invention (1990's) long after I was a user and freely distributing copies (1980's) which was years before the copyright.

Anyway, getting back to Albert Clark, I'm afraid anything as late as 1979 was in no way notable; use of interactive systems was quite wide-spread by then (although not ubiquitous).

-I'm am well aware of interactive systems being in use. The difference is adding thousands of ordinary government employees to a formal interactive system for the conduct of day to day non-computer related business. Prior to that time, at least in the government, computers were key punch cards fed in by computer professionals who printed out batch reports.

Any material dating to the 1960's would be of considerably more interest, though. Not that it will necessarily produce any great change in the histories; I don't think his work was significant to the ARPANet people, who were going along the path laid out quite a few years earlier by J. C. R. Licklider, and, AFAIK, knew nothing of Clark's work.

- I don't know as AFAIK existed in the 60's. Certainly no one working there now. My documentation shows that Clark did not go through formal computer request processes. He defined a need through the management side who took action to build a system that became the ARPANET.

- As far as Licklider, I read some of his stuff around 1960-1966, not sure when. I read of lot of other science fiction so I know the idea was mainstream future. Might seem increadible to someone younger, but in 1960 they were predicting computer controlled automobiles that would follow wired highways by 1984...didn't happen...still waiting. People were playing chess against computers in the 1950's. His funding priorities really helped though. It was R&D money looking for a home. The money was close to being taken away by Congress when the requirement for computers to share data came to DARPA. Army computer talking to Air Force computer, perfect. (Army is the main driver of DARPA and involving AF made it a joint service project). Use the money to pay for University study and software programming, perfect. Quick response to immediate problem, perfect. Who gets the credit? The person with no idea but influence to get money or the guy with the idea to apply the money.

I encourage you to obtain a read a copy of Lick's excellent biography (The Dream Machine, Mitchell Waldrop) which covers the early period (from the later 50's onward) in great detail. Noel (talk) 22:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

- I just love how people come along long after the fact and try to document things that happened before they were born. The Dream Machine copyright is 2001. History should be written by people that were there that have nothing to gain financially.

Coppied over from your comments on my talk page. Please make comments disputing changes to an article on the articles talk page.

Prior to the Internet, communication networks would operate based on their physical transmission method - Ah, technically, no, Even the ARPAnet needed nothing more than a bit-string and clock, and it used a number of different physical transmission technologies (including satellite links) to get that. (You may have meant something slightly different, but I can only go by what's there.)

This what a typo. I'd intended to write internetworking. Which by definition is the unification of diferent physical networks.

as the research project at the UK's National Physical Laboratory under the direction of Donald Davies - I am unaware that Davies played any role at all in internetworking (he certainly had no role after '77, which was when I joined the project); please provide a reference to his work on that topic. (His role in packet-switching is well known, but that's different.)

Um... Packet switching is inherently an internetwork technology, not sure I can imagine any other way it would be used?

who developed the concepts of packet switched networks - The credit for packet switching is split several ways; see the ARPANET article for a more detailed look at this topic (Baran's work is the earliest).

Well, the article on Packet Switching gives Davies credit?

Parallel to DARPA's research, packet switching networks were developed by the International Telecommunication Union in the form of X.25. - There was nothing "parallel" about it. Telenet was an ARPANet clone, done by Larry Roberts after he left DARPA, and went online in '75. X.25 was heavily based on Telenet. In any event, the X.25 spec was only done in '76, contemporaneously with the early Internet work.

Then edit this to be correct. Say that X.25 is a branch of the early ARPANet development. I do not accept it's a clone of ARPANet since Telenet

X.25 would see large take up in business, particularly banking and public access networks. - So? It was a non-related branch that died off (like a whole bunch of other failed networking technologies, such as SNA, DECnet, etc, etc, etc), and irrelevant to the history of the Internet.

X.25 was the home for a wide wide range of comercial public access networks, including AOL and Compuserve. Leaving them out makes it appear that comercial public access networks sprung up after NSFnet.

The Internet's technical roots lie within the ARPANET, - You added the "technical", but this is incorrect. The "network culture" of the early Internet was a direct transplant of the culture which had grown up on the ARPANet (with mailing lists, etc, etc), so it's more than just "technical".

I dispute this. USENET, and BBSs in general gave the Internet it's "geek" culture. Remember, ARPANET was a military development, the D in DARPA. The mailing list culture came over from USENET and the colleges where research took place.

which was initially the core network in the collection of networks in the American Internet Backbone - Again, incorrect. See the 1982 and 1985 maps. In the early stages, the ARPANET was the backbone, there was nothing else.

Fair enough, I won't dispute this. However, between 1985 the X.25 college and institute networks in europe were being converted over to a European Internet so it is important to note that ARPANET was the US Internet backbone. (see http://www.mkaz.com/ebeab/history/)

Early TCP/IP work - In the earliest Internet work, there were no separate TCP and IP protocols, so this title is inaccurate.

Never the less, the section in question was solely about the development of TCP/IP.

The early Internet, based around the ARPANET, was government-funded - The material you struck out was factual and accurate. See the circa-'85 Internet map I added to the article.

Which lacks any of the European Internet based around CERN.

I'll re-edit to adress your concerns, and restore information on the non-ARPANET contrabutions to The Internet.--John R. Barberio ^{talk, contribs 11:07, 30 August 2005 (UTC)}

Damn it Noel.

Damn it Noel, why did you fuck with the Are you Afraid of the Dark page!?! You just had to break the page again didn't you? The redirect is confusing as hell with the question mark. Heres an idea, leave my edit alone. If it doesnt work for me I'm sure the page is messed up for someone else too. Leave the question mark out. --Arm 03:48, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah you did edit the pages. It's called reverting. When I try hard to fix a problem (understanding why the problem exists mainly) that is utterly confusing and then someone comes around and reverts everything that I worked hard to fix, it kinda makes a person angry doesnt it?

I think the problem might have to do with the many redirects with similar names for Are you Afraid of the Dark. There are a few with similar names and I guess they cause a mixup. I cant delete them as I'm not an admin and people just revert when I try to blank the page. I guess if all those similar redirects were deleted there wouldnt be a problem.

Oh and those redirects are not needed anyway. --Arm 12:09, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

ARPA/DARPA Researchers

Anyone who received ARPA/DARPA research grants was a DoD employee for the period of research, and in respect to the products of the research. --John R. Barberio ^{talk, contribs 10:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)}

IP Address

I like your idea about moving the IP address allocations to a different place ;) 0waldo 00:02, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

re Go and Search

You wrote: Err, "Go" is not "Search" - it's go. In other words, it's exactly the same as typing that string into a URL (except that wierd characters like '?' get correctly escaped). If someone wants a search, they need to hit the "Search" button. Noel (talk) 03:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure what brings this up, but "Go" doesn't act like a URL fetch. Compare this URL vs. typing "user talk:Rick block" in the search box and hitting "Go". By URL, it doesn't find my talk page. Using "Go" it does. I haven't looked at the code, but I'm pretty sure in most cases "Go" is doing a case insensitive SQL lookup by article name, and if there is a match that doesn't follow certain rules, the match must be a full case sensitive match. URL fetch (and wikilnks) seem to be case sensitive all the time. Is there some problem you're chasing, or (perhaps more likely) something I've said you think is incorrect? -- Rick Block (talk) 05:00, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you're talking about this edit? I agree using the terminology "Go search" is probably confusing and your version is better, although I still maintain "Go" actually does a search by article title (not a URL fetch). -- Rick Block (talk) 23:35, September 5, 2005 (UTC)

Generic file names

Thanks for supporting my idea! I have left a message and a request on the page Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Generic image file names. --Janke | Talk 06:02:42, 2005-09-06 (UTC)

• OK, you can protect them now. I uploaded the warning image to all the files named in the discussion (and moved & renamed one user's self-portrait, notified him), except "Image.gif" which resides on Commons. The image there is not used anywhere, but I'll let somebody else fix the Commons image (I've not logged in there - yet.) --Janke | Talk 06:28:23, 2005-09-07 (UTC)
  • Thanks. I'll leave the one on Commons for someone else to fix. --Janke | Talk 17:11:37, 2005-09-07 (UTC)

Transliteration of Hebrew names

I cannot agree with you Noel. The modern way of writting Biblical, Jewish and Israeli proper names is to transliterate them from the original correct Hebrew. The now mostly disused old-fashioned way is to write the name in translation or using the Greek/Latin/German equivalent. Eg Yaaqov is not Jacob even though J is pronounced Y in German. Most maps and encyclopedias used the Hebrew transliteration method. All official Israeli Government publications use the Hebrew transliteration including road signs, this is based on the rulings of the Academy of the Hebrew Language. The Beer-Sheva municipality uses Beer-Sheva for the name of the town (see http://www.beer-sheva.muni.il) and the same method for the street names. True that some names are difficult to dislodge (eg Jerusalem should be Yerusalayim) A similar move-over has been taking place in other countries in the Middle East from the Arabic and in China (who says Peking now). Beersheva is old fashioned and simply wrong, Beer-Sheva is correct. --User:Ben Qish | Talk 2005-09-07

1Time

Yeah, I remember that. A whole bunch of similar and near-useless South African-themed nanostubs came pouring in from that same IP that day. It was before I had the priviledge of the "history eraser button" at my disposal, so I thought that a redirect looked better than a red link. I agree it's pretty useless redirect and I'll go vote accordingly. Thanks for the heads-up. - Lucky 6.9 16:49, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Three more...

Image:Picture.jpg / Image:Picture.gif / Image:Picture.png How could I forget these? Please protect as generic file names, too! AdThanksVance, --Janke | Talk 04:20:35, 2005-09-09 (UTC)

Votes for deletion question?

I was wondering if you could tell me who I would I could get tally up a vote and whether the length of time from September 1 to now is long enough to decide a vote. My question is specifically in regards to the Samuel Krafsur votes for deletion. Any info would be a big help. Dwain 17:05, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the help! Dwain