Talk:Raw foodism/Archive 2: Difference between revisions

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This is an archive of past discussions about Raw foodism. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Vandalism Removal

Although disagreeing with the validity of such a diet I am sure that the word 'penis' does not belong half way down the section on it's own. As such I have gelded this article and removed it's penis. I couldn't be bothered to sign in to do it but thought I'd better announce it here in case somebody reverted my edit and brought the penis back. 194.223.81.88 (talk) 11:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Enzymes

I've done a little work on the criticism of enzymes section, listing the scientific objections a little more clearly and explaining why the enzyme theory goes against current knowledge of biochemistry. I've made the bold claim that there is no (good) evidence that exogenous plant enzymes can contribute to digestion in humans under normal conditions - I personally can't find anything in respectable journals, but maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, so if anybody has some evidence (not anecdotal) then feel free to list it.

I've also tidied up the strange claim about bromolain and superoxide dismutase, which appears to have been put in by somebody who didn't understand the scientific objection (of course these two enzymes can be absorbed ... after they're digested :-). Cheers!

--62.69.37.177 (talk) 19:35, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Some bad science, weak links, food religion

Many "good" links were removed from this page. I can put some back but why bother if someone else will just delete them?

The many refs to teeth and dentistry are astoundingly bad science here. The human oral structures are optimized for speech, and impacted by evolution driven by culture, tool use, and cooking. And yes, if desired I can back this up with cites to peer-reviewed research.

Raw foodism is effectively a "food religion" for its adherents. Pretty sad.

Research26 (talk) 20:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I added a counterpoint in the lead section to balance out the article a bit. Research26, if you have relevant sources, please put them back. I'll put this article on my watchlist. Thanks. --Phenylalanine (talk) 19:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

article name and terminology

'Tis odd rawism redirects here instead of vice-versa, and that the name here is used in the article. Rawism is more succinct, as 'Hindusim' is more succinct than 'Hindu religionism.' 'Rawism,' besides food, could apply to water that does not have ORME removed (ORME is also in food,) or air that has enough negative ions.Dchmelik (talk) 06:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Raw wiki

You are invited to help edit our raw wiki web site Raw.Wikia.com. Thanks for your consideration! User:Dandelion (talk|contribs) 23:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Supercharge Me

I've marked Supercharge Me as potentially needing to be deleted for non-notability. Maybe better off just merging it in to this article? Lot49a (talk) 23:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Re: Notability - Google search today yields approx. 11,000 results for "Supercharge Me!". Majority appear to be from independent sources.--Mem411 (talk) 13:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Logic absent

"Raw foods contain enzymes which aid digestion, meaning that the body's own enzymes may work unimpeded in regulating the body's metabolic processes, and heating food above 110-120 degrees Fahrenheit degrades or destroys these enzymes in food."

There is absolutely no logical link between the first part of that sentence and the part concerning body's own enzymes (putting "meaning" in there does not create one).
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.242.255.83 (talk) 08:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I found that most of the anti-raw/pro-coooking info was presented as fact when, actually, even Wrangham has admitted that he still needs more evidence to support his claims re cooking being invented millions of years ago -plus, I thought it was also important to point out that Wrangham's views are not held by the majority of archaeologists/anthropologists, and that Wrangham is only a chimp behaviourist by degree/profession not an archaeologist. I therefore corrected it to make clear it's only a claim much like raw-foodism, and also added some much-needed links to support the pro-raw-foodist version re theory/evidence, as a counter-balance, in order to correct an obvious bias in the original Wikipedia article. Loki0115 (talk) 11:13, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, although the last user made changes days ago, his information is 5 years out of date. Evidence of ancient cooking has been found. Wrangham has published a new paper on the subject, based on this evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.126.85.108 (talk) 05:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

The previous poster has made a claim that my information was "5 years out of date" without providing a reference, but I presume he's referring to Wrangham's article "Cooking as a biological trait" which merely rehashes all of Wrangham's previous claims, again with no clear evidence re the advent of cooking(that is, archaeologists, even today, openly agree that no one can be sure when cooking was invented).Plus, again it should be noted that Wranghma is merely speculating about a field(palaeoanthropology) in which he is not a specialist in - he is, in fact, a chimp behaviourist by profession, judging from the CV that's easily found on Google.

Also, the previous poster has made the following statement which is completely illogical and entirely irrelevant to my previous main point (about how the decrease in brain-size by 8% in the Neolithic completely debunks Wrangham's claims that eating cooked starchy food such as tubers increases human brain-size)), namely:-"However, since the Neolithic era started too recently for any significant changes in human genetics, that argument seems to have little merit." I pointed out elsewhere in the article that Dr Weston-Price has shown that consuming cooked and processed food leads to long-term deterioration over the generations, with no reference to genetic changes at all. Besides, the whole point of Wrangham's argument is that an environmental effect(ie eating cooked-starches),NOT a genetic one, led to the formation of larger human brains, so, by the same token, the fact that a specific environmental, non-genetic effect(ie eating larger amounts of cooked-starches since the Neolithic) led to a decrease by 8% of the average human brain, means that Wrangham's ideas (linking cooked-starchy foods and higher intelligence)are debunked. I have therefore removed the relevant addendum, due to its irrelevance.Loki0115 (talk) 20:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

re my above statement. It should be noted that the new science of epigenetics has pointed out how a bad diet by one's parents can lead to health-problems/diseases in their offspring:- http://epigenome.eu/en/2,5,129

so this shows that genetic adaptation to foods is not the only aspect of diet.Loki0115 (talk) 21:32, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

"It has been pointed out as well that wild animals have very low incidences of malocclusion,[47], by comparison to humans. Since wild animals eat raw food, but humans eat mostly cooked, this might actually indicate that cooking food leads to poor dental health, rather than any evolutionary explanation."
Also, since wild animals are typically covered in fur, but humans are mostly not, this might actually indicate that being furrier leads to better dental health, right? Come on. I won't remove these sentences myself, as I have no way to remove this ridiculous "argument" without coming across as unbiased (and I _do_ think that actual scientific research, showing _both_ sides, is sorely needed in this section), but I recommend their removal by someone with a greater interest in this article than myself. 98.210.141.1 (talk) 19:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The argument by the above poster is totally irrelevant to my previous points made on the wikipedia page:- after all wild animals are definitely not all "typically covered in fur" in the first place! I realise that he is trying to make fun of my previous point re all wild animals in general having much lower rates of malocclusion than humans, but the fact is that I have, unlike the previous poster, provided scientific references backing up this point completely, and I also noted that Weston-Price, a prominent nutritionist(and dentist), had directly linked the deterioration in dental health in the human population to the increased consumption of cooked and processed foods(and the increased avoidance of raw animal foods)- also backed up by a reference. So my point is a perfectly valid one to make, in light of Weston-Price's work. Rather than trying to remove my perfectly valid explanation of cooked-food leading to deterioration in human health, posters such as the above should simply add scientific references backing other possible explanations for the deterioration in human dental health, so as to be unbiased.Loki0115 (talk) 11:57, 20

July 2008 (UTC)

As regards the red herring provided by the other person re that fur-comment, I should mention that modern dentistry is perfectly well aware that the consumption of low-quality foods like sugar or refined/processed foods leads to poor dental health, so it's rather difficult to claim that poor dental health is not linked to diet to a very large extent. Also, I'd personally referred to Dr Weston-Price, the well-known nutritionist and dentist, who'd noted a significant deterioration in dental health among those native-tribes who'd abandoned traditional foods(which had included some raw animal foods).Loki0115 (talk) 12:50, 20 July 2008 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Raw_foodism&action=edit&section=8

No, you've missed my point entirely. I was tired, however, when writing that, and so my cynicism may have covered the point which I believed was so obvious. I'll try to follow the civility guideline more closely here.

I'll put the original point I was making aside for a paragraph to point out that you haven't "provided scientific references backing up this point completely." Your reference in that paragraph leads to a secondary source with no link to the original. This is fine for Wikipedia -- but this is all observational research, something that the media in general misunderstands. Experimental research is needed to back up the sentence I poked fun at to begin with, which brings me to my original point. (I care about this particular point much more, so if you pick only one of these paragraphs to respond to, make it the next one, please.)

Regarding your "after all wild animals are definitely not all "typically covered in fur" in the first place!", of course they're not. I was afraid whoever read that would come back with that as a retort. I understand that poor dental health has been linked to modern diet, and if you notice, I made no claims to the contrary. But please, please understand the basic truth that correlation does not imply causation. It is responsible to say, for example, that "cooking food has been linked to poor dental health." It is irresponsible to assert, based on this, that "cooking food leads to poor dental health."

This is not a semantics war, and this is not nit-picking. It is a very real logical fallacy which is present in this article. 98.210.141.1 (talk) 17:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see, that's more reasonable. I'll see what I can do to change it to a more reasonable wordage Loki0115 (talk) 20:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

CLEAN UP

I'm going to remove all instances of original research (WP:Original research) and unreliable sources (WP:Reliable source) from this article. Many references will have to be removed. I'm open to discussing these matters if necessary. --Phenylalanine (talk) 03:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Please cite which parts of the Raw Foodism article you're concerned aboutLoki0115 (talk) 09:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Loki0115, please avoid using the word "claim" in the article (see WP:Words to avoid). Also, see WP:Lead: the intro is not supposed to be as detailed as the body of the article. One or two short sentences are sufficient to describe the controversy regarding the health effects of the diet in the lead. Also, read WP:NPOV. --Phenylalanine (talk) 11:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I was copying the same style used by a previous poster who duplicated some text, so I did the same. I should mention that before I first added in various references, Wrangham's claims were (wrongly) represented as absolute fact, whereas his views are not held by most others in the field(see references). I'll see about shortening the intro.Loki0115 (talk) 13:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, why is the word "claim" wrong? I used it, as much of palaeoanthropology hasn't been proven to any real extent with many theories being just vague guesses based on inconclusive evidence. Therefore, using the word "claim" is a good way to refer to someone's views without misrepresenting them as fact(sorry, I'll read the guidelines - I'm new with all this). Also, the big problem for me is that someone(obviously biased) deliberately inserted info re Wrangham in the intro, whereas Wrangham should, IMO, be mentioned only in the Criticism section, not the Intro, as Wrangham is not relevant as regards describing the raw diet as such. That's why I felt I had to add the counter-points.Loki0115 (talk) 13:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

re the above:- Would it be OK if I removed the whole pro-Wrangham/anti-Wrangham comments from the Intro so that it's only in the criticism section? Just read the words not to use, and was surprised to find so many that are frowned upon()eg:- contend) - will have to be more careful in futureLoki0115 (talk) 13:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

No, "the lead serves both as an introduction to the article below and as a short, independent summary of the important aspects of the article's topic. The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies that may exist. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources. While consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article, the lead nonetheless must not "tease" the reader by hinting at—but not explaining—important facts that will appear later in the article. The lead should contain up to four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style so as to invite a reading of the full article." (WP:Lead) --Phenylalanine (talk) 22:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough - Well, I've provided 2 sentences in the Intro, not 4. So that should be fine. I still heavily disagree re the idea of providing hostile viewpoints in the Intro as I view those as being more relevant to the Criticism section - Still , I've included the full data in the Criticism section.Loki0115(sorry, can't currently find the right symbols!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loki0115 (talk • contribs) 22:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I removed unreliable references (WP:RS) from the diet table. To be notable, a diet must receive reliable media coverage, that means widely publicized newspapers, magazines, academic journals, etc., but NOT advertisement & personal websites. I will give the editors of the article ONE WEEK to find reliable sources to verify the notability of those diets. If after that period has elapsed, no reliable sources have been provided, I will delete the diets which I have tagged: the "Primal diet", "Raw Paleolithic Diet", "Wai diet" and "The Garden Diet" and the "Low-fat 80 10 10 diet".--Phenylalanine (talk) 22:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/6055506.stm Will this help? I'm new to Wikipedia but don't want to see the reliance and importance of raw animal foods that humans have historically depended on for health and nourishment dismissed from this resource.TreytonP (talk) 09:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

You need a source that specifically uses the names of the above dietary programs ("Raw paleolithic diet", "Primal diet", etc.). BUT, if you can find a source that specifically states that intuits are "raw foodists" and eat a "living foods diet", please include it. --Phenylalanine (talk) 09:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The creator of the Primal Diet is Aajonus Vonderplanitz, who's been featured in various radio-interviews, and magazine articles. He and his Primal Diet have been mentioned by other people such as in the folliowing book(read excerpt:-)

http://meatalovestory.com/excerpt.html Y

A family following the raw-meat-heavy "Primal Diet" was the subject of an episode of the Reality TV-series Wifeswap on American Television:-

http://www.tv.com/wife-swap/haigwood-hess-webb/episode/977102/summary.html N

Here's an interview of Aajonus Vonderplanitz which appeared in the Natural Health M2M magazine:-

http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/bass/aajonus.html N

Here's reference to a radio-interview of Aajonus Vonderplanitz:-

http://www.modavox.com/news/june_0507a.asp N

). Aajonus Vonderplanitz has published two books already "We Want To Live" and "The Recipe for Living Without Disease", both available on www.amazon.com and elsewhere.

. Doug Graham of the 80/10/10 diet has published a book available on amazon.com , unsuprisingly called the "80/10/10" diet. Here's a youtube excerpt of a TV-interview of Doug Graham and his 80/10/10 raw diet, proving notability:-

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3AJ0TseveNI N

(I'll come back and provide further references but most of the above should easily be acceptable).Loki0115 (talk) 09:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's an online article mentioning the Raw, Palaeolithic Diet:- http://www.articlesbase.com/nutrition-articles/raw-food-diet-different-types-and-their-health-benefits-473578.html N

More articles referring to raw, palaeolithic diets. Here's a Washington Post article about the Nenets(a Siberian tribe) who eat a raw, palaeolithic diet(ie mostly raw meats, raw fish and raw berries):- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/13/AR2008051300583.html?sid=ST2008051302252 N

There's also a wikipedia entry for the "Inuit" which states(what can be found anywhere online) that their diet consisted of a high level of raw meats/raw organ-meats:- "In particular, he found that adequate vitamin C could be obtained from items in the Inuit's traditional diet of raw meat such as Ringed Seal liver and whale skin. While there was considerable skepticism when he reported these findings, they have been borne out in recent studies.[16]" taken from:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit N

The old,traditional Inuit diet is in fact a raw palaeolithic diet as it consisted of significant amounts of raw meats and raw organ-meats, and contains no non-Palaeo foods - which would be a requirement for being a "Raw, Palaeolithic Diet"(or "RPD" for short).

Here's a standard Info-page describing the Raw,Palaeolithic Diet as well as the Wai Diet. The Info-page is unaffiliated as such as regards diet, it merely lists them as standard well-known diets:-

http://www.newtreatments.org/diet.php N

(I'll post any of the above as notes as soon as you OK them). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loki0115 (talk • contribs) 14:04, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Since a standard Info-page on AGEs was considered unacceptable, despite it being seemingly non-partisan, I decided to, instead, include the link to the standard Wikipedia page on Advanced Glycation Endproducts, which provides much the same info, anyway.Loki0115 (talk) 15:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Ooops, Somehow I managed to leave some dotted lines in the text which I don't know how to remove. I'll check back later to see what I can doLoki0115 (talk) 15:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I crossed out the unacceptable sources, and check marked the one source I think is acceptable as a reference for the Primal Diet. (For further information, please see WP:RS and WP:ATT.) --Phenylalanine (talk) 02:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

re the above reviews of my online references to the Primal Diet:- The interview of aajonus was by a Natural Health magazine, so it should be valid(neither the interviewer nor the magazine were Primal-dieters, being Natural Hygiene-oriented instead). it seems as though you're asking for articles about those diets but only as long as they appear on sites which have nothing whatsoever to do with diet at all - somewhat contradictory ¬¬¬¬

Here's yet another interview of Aajonus, featured in an article on the anti-raw www.beyondveg.com website:-

http://www.beyondveg.com/nieft-k/rvw/rvw-we-want-to-live.shtml N

Another review of the Primal-Diet creator Aajonus Vonderplanitz's books(not sure if this is OK, but posting anyway as the article is neither too pro- or anti-raw, unlike the previous one which is somewhat biased):-

http://www.ralphmoss.com/Vonderplanitz.html N

Here's a standard description of Raw-Animal-Food Diets:-

http://www.rawpaleodiet.org/rvaf-overview.html N

Here's an Independent on Sunday(a British newspaper) article on raw-meat diets(otherwise known in the raw-meat-eating community as "Raw-Animal-Food Diets" or as "Raw Palaeolithic Diets" etc.(see the rawpaleodiet.org website mentioned earlier for the different terms used for diets including raw meats):-

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/the-raw-meat-diet-do-you-have-the-stomach-for-the-latest-celebrity-food-fad-493908.html ¬¬¬¬ (Loki0115) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loki0115 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC) N

Also, here's an article that appeared in the Los Angeles Times in 2001(as made clear at the bottom of the page), which is an interview of Aajonus and describes the Primal Diet:-

http://www.karlloren.com/Diabetes/p33.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loki0115 (talk • contribs) 13:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC) N

- - Phenylaline, I just realised that you diverted virtually the entire list of studies on toxins in cooked-foods to the "Meat" wikipedia section. The studies on AGEs/PAHs/Nitrosamines/HCAs etc. do not exclusively focus on meat(AGEs are implicated mostly in cooked carbs, after all). So this is a somewhat inappropriate(!), as the studies in question focused on toxins created by cooking in general, not just meat. ¬¬¬¬ (Loki0115)

Also, you failed to notice that you transferred to the "Meat" wikipedia section a reference to a study showing the harmful effects of eating cooked-dairy on rats in a particular scientific study(what relevance does dairy have to do with meat?)

Again, you removed the reference to the studies showing the hamrful effects of microwaving foods. If you look at the reference(number 28 in the Wikipedia "Meat" section), you'll see that the studies mentioned show harmful effects for all kinds of microwaved-foods, such as dairy, grains, vegetables etc - not just for microwaved-meat. So, this is COMPLETELY out of place in the Meat section, and only relevant to the Raw Foodism section.

Re AGEs:- I had made it clear that AGEs existed in all cooked-foods, including cooked-carbs, not just cooked-meats. Here's a study(among many others) which shows that cooked-carbs can cause harmful AGEs(advanced glycation endproducts):-

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/130/5/1247

On top of this, you transferred to the Wikipedia meat section a mention of a study showing the health-benefits of a raw vegan diet, also completely irrelevant to the meat section.

Nitrosamines, which you also removed mention of from the raw foodism section, are present in other foods, not just meats(for example they are in beer and milk:- http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w00/nitrosamine.html

Similiarly, PAHs(Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons) are also found in all kinds of foods heated to high temperatures, not just with meats:-

http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scf/out154_en.pdf

In short, references to various scientific studies have been provided(though many, many more can be provided if you ask) - plus, some of the toxins mentioned, such as Advanced Glycation En dproducts and Nitrosamines are already referenced elsewhere on Wikipedia(with additional references), so it's clear that the references are backed up by solid sources. So, verifiability is easily covered, and as far as original research is concerned, there are too many scientific studies covering the subject of toxins in cooked-foods for this to be a valid concern.¬¬¬¬ (Loki0115).

I'll start the whole subsection again, providing further references to a multitude of scientific studies on the subject of toxins in cooked-foods in general, in light of my above concerns. I would also advise eliminating most of the scientific references to toxins in cooked-foods which have been transferred to the "Meat" section, as almost all of them are either irrelevant to the issue of cooked-meat, as they cover entirely different cooked foods, or cover cooked-foods in general, not just meat -plus, not only is the data not relevant, but transferring such data solely to the "Meat" page for wikipedia would ultimately lead to a pro-raw-vegan-bias in the "Meat" section, even if completely unintentional. ¬¬¬¬ (Loki0115)

I'll provide here further links re studies showing toxins such as AGEs in cooked foods other than meats. After that, I do think that those other studies should be put back in their place in the raw-foodism section.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loki0115 (talk • contribs) 14:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia takes some getting used to

Loki, thank you for your efforts to improve the "Raw foodism" article, but I don't think you understand exactly how Wikipedia works. I've been here almost 10 months, and there are still aspects of wikipedia that baffle me. One thing I do know is how to spot original research when I see it. Trust me, I learned the hard way when I got an article that I worked on "sustainable eating" removed on the grounds that it was original research. Basically, if the wikipedia article's title or a synonym of that title does not appear in a source you want to use to verify material, the source should not be used per WP:OR. The way to proceed to build a Wikipedia article is to look for reliable sources that specifically use the terms which correspond to the wikipedia article's title or synonyms of that title (e.g. "raw foodism", "living foods diet", "rawism", "raw foods diet", "raw vegan diet", "raw foodists"... BUT NOT "raw foods", "raw meat", "raw veggies", "uncooked food", etc. etc). I know, it's very restrictive (and sometimes, you have to exclude useful and interesting information), but that's the policy. See for yourelf: Wikipedia:No original research. That's the reason I removed (and moved) the material and sources I removed. Also, regarding the links you have provided, I crossed them all out – except one – since those sources that I crossed out do not reliably show that the Primal diet (Primal-Diet created by Aajonus Vonderplanitz) is notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. To be notable, by Wikipedia's standards, a diet must receive reliable media coverage, that means serious and reliable newspapers, magazines, academic journals, notable books, etc., BUT NOT unreliable, promotional and/or agenda-driven online magazines and newsletters, and agend-driven, promotional and/or personal websites (note that these sites can be used to (to describe the diet) as secondary sources once the diet has been showed to be notable by the above standards). --Phenylalanine (talk) 21:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

You also ignored the article about raw-meat diets in the Independent on Sunday - The Independent and its sister newspaper The Independent on Sunday are among the biggest newspapers(circulation-wise) in the United Kingdom(ie not mere regional ones or a tabloid), so hardly merit exclusion and they specifically mention raw-meat diets(if you wish I can simply reword the term "Raw Palaeolithic Diet" as "Raw Meat Diet" as both terms are used for the same thing) - you can't simply discount a newspaper article because it's UK one.¬¬¬¬

Sure, "raw Meat Diet" would be fine and properly verified by the Independent article. Good find.

--Phenylalanine (talk) 15:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

As regards the issue re scientific studies re the effects of cooked-foods, fair enough - but then they should be put in the "Cooking" section of wikipedia, not the "Meat" section - as, otherwise, Wikipedia then becomes biased towards the Raw-Vegan viewpoint(and, like I said, most of those scientific studies I references concerned cooked-foods as a whole, not just meats, so are not relevant in the Meat section).

I agree with you. I copied the material to the "cooking" article and removed the unrelated info from the "meat" article. Good point. --Phenylalanine (talk) 15:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Re the Wrangham/tubers debunking sentence which you've now also removed:- That was a perfectly valid statement, especially since it appears in a site (beyondveg.com) which happens to be anti-raw in its general outlook(!)

"Beyondveg.com" does not comply with WP:RS for the purpose of verifying contentious material.--Phenylalanine (talk) 15:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah well, I understand that Wikipedia may have certain restrictions, it's just that I always viewed it as a way to include all (verifiable) aspect of human knowledge - still, there's always Google Knol, wikinfo,anarchopedia with different guidelines etc.Loki0115 (talk) 10:25, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia IS the place to include all verifiable aspects of human knowledge... in a way that complies with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Wikipedia is not censored. --Phenylalanine (talk) 15:35, 27 July 2008 (UTC)