Talk:Water-fuelled car

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Copyright infringement

Template:RFCpolicy I though I should post this here before sending it out to info@thefinancialdaily.com, info@manhattandatainc.com and others; --CyclePat (talk) 18:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Attention: To the owner/registrant of "The Financial Daily International" (DATANET) and the website provider Network Solutions, LLC.

This is a notice Copyright Infringement. "The Financial Daily International", is in violations of U.S. and international copyright agreements. The webpage titled "Technology behind water-fuelled vehicles By: Syed Abul Abbas Naqvi - Articles Detail" (http://thefinancialdaily.com/Articles/ViewArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=2810) violates the terms and agreements set out for the use of Wikipedia content. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights)

The editors of the Wikipedia article "Water Fuelled Car" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-fuelled_car) which use the alias SteveBaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SteveBaker), CyclePat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CyclePat) and Presby (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Presby), are in the view that their written materials have been illegally republished by the Financial Daily's website. Their decision may be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Water-fuelled_car/Archive_1#Does_this_look_familiar_to_anyone.3F

The editors are legally entitled to seek compensatory damages. Expect to hear from their lawyers. This violation must be immediately corrected to conform to the terms of agreement stipulated in the use of Wikipedia's GFDL material and international copyright laws to prevent any further legal actions.

You may rectify this problem by either removing the content or "in the second case, if you incorporate external GFDL materials, as a requirement of the GFDL, you need to acknowledge the authorship and provide a link back to the network location of the original copy."

---

Take note that on August 1st 2008, editor, SteveBaker advised you of this infringement.

A copy of this message is being sent to the "current internet website registrar" via their online feedback form located at url http://bpmforms.networksolutions.com/customer-feedback.html. According to WHOIS search results, (http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results.jsp?domain=thefinancialdaily.com) The Financial Daily's Website registrar is :

Network Solutions, LLC 13861 Sunrise Valley Drive, Suite 300 HERNDON, VA 20171, US

The server is also listed as Worldnic.com (which redirects to the afformentioned Network Solutions, LCC's website). The server's IP 216.25.127.86 is hosted in the UNITED STATES-GEORGIA-ATLANTA.(http://whois.domaintools.com/thefinancialdaily.com) and subject to United States law.

WHOIS records shows that Datanet is the registrant of the Financial Daily's" website. (http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/results.jsp?domain=thefinancialdaily.com)

According to the Financial Daily's website, the company is located in Pakistan. Here is a satellite image of the business' address http://wikimapia.org/#lat=24.829605&lon=67.073875&z=18&l=0&m=a&v=2&show=/2271833/DataNet_Pvt._Ltd. However there is a MDI Datanet in the United States. A copy of this notice has been sent to the registrant MDI Datanet (info@manhattandatainc.com). (http://www.manhattandatainc.com/communication/contact.asp).

Another copy has been sent to the author of the infringing material, via Mr Syed Abul Abbas Naqvi's facebook entry.(http://es.facebook.com/people/Syed_Abul_Abbas_Naqvi/1306816030)

Discussion/comments

• Y DoneBetter to include the official copyright page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights instead of a redirect to it? OTOH, you could use one of the prewritten form letters for this situation (although the personal touch is always nice:). DMacks (talk) 19:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Hmmm... maybe is 3 days after the first notice a little bit short to shut a part of the internet off. Mion (talk) 20:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Apparently the only contact with the web site was a "rude email" sent sometime on Friday. It's now only Monday. Have the esteemed editors here considered going the route of 'polite request and education' rather than 'over-the-top ridiculous legal threat'? I've made more detailed remarks in the concurrent thread at AN/I. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Woaahh there! The suggestion above is WAY over the top. We don't have to invent a way to do this - there is a specific Wikipedia process to follow. I'm the one that sent the "rude email" - but term is more of a shorthand term for the sake of humor than a literal description of what I sent. The Wikipedia policy about this contains a set of suggested letters to send: Wikipedia:Standard GFDL violation letter. Specifically, I sent Letter aimed at a specific violation. If I don't get a reply in a few days (our policy says to wait a week), I'll proceed with the next step in our official Non-compliance process. We don't have to expend great energy here - the steps are clearly laid out - and I'm following them. SteveBaker (talk) 01:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
  • That's why I posted it here prior to sending it out. I failled to see where it said we should wait 1 week. And the only information I noticed was at the WP:copyrights, whereas it indicates we (the editors) are responsible. Specifically it states "for permission to use it outside these terms, one must contact all the volunteer authors of the text or illustration in question." It also says "To this end, the text contained in Wikipedia is copyrighted (automatically, under the Berne Convention) by Wikipedia contributors and licensed to the public under the GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL)." Which to me means the editors can do what they want to enforce their copyright. Thanks to you for the link to Non-compliance process, I too now believe we should work together and follow the steps highlighted within the process. I also now see what some Wikipedians are doing regarding non-compliance to the GFDL licence from external websites and I'm glad to see there is a type of support mecanism here on wikipedia. --CyclePat (talk) 16:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It's the second step in the Non-compliance process - which is as follows:

1. Send a standard GFDL violation letter to the site owner. You can use a whois lookup to get contact info if it is not otherwise available. (I did this on August 1st or so)
2. One week (or more) later, send a follow-up reminder. (I did this on August 9th)
3. Three weeks (or more) later, send a final warning, noting that continued infringement will result in a DMCA takedown notice being sent to their ISP. (This will be sometime in early September)
4. Two weeks (or more) later, send a DMCA takedown notice to the ISP, enumerating articles that infringe your copyright. Note separately that the site also violates the copyrights of others. To find the appropriate address, first search the ISP's website. To find the ISP, you can: enter the domain name in the DNS search at http://dnsstuff.com, then click the IP. First search the ISP's site for a legal address. If that doesn't work, try to look them up at http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/list/ . If they're not in the directory, send the notice to the abuse address. Note that sites are not legally required to accept DMCA notices. If they don't the only recourse is legal action.

SteveBaker (talk) 18:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we could removed the RfC. I look into doing this properly. Thank you every for you comments. Sorry for any drama. --CyclePat (talk) 14:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Having received no response to my first email after a week - I've sent a follow-up/reminder per our process. The next step is to wait three more weeks and then try again. SteveBaker (talk) 20:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi Steve, do you know if they at least read your email? (Read receipt?) On your talk page you indicated you used the contact information available from their website.[2] That information appears to be similar to the WHOIS information listed for the website owner. The only problem, I'm not sure if the email is the same. Furthermore, there is an American firm called Datatech which is related to this firm. They should too, be notified. To ensure proper documentation was sent, I'm willing to send a letter via registered mail to both. This will provide us with an assurance from Canada Post that the letters were properly delivered to the right address, which appears to be Datatech. --CyclePat (talk) 19:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know anyone who leave "read receipts" turned on in their email client!! If you do - turn it off immediately! That's just an open invitation for spammers and malware. They just love to find out which of their library of tricks got you to actually read their mail rather than delete it without even looking at it. Since most people turn it off - requesting a "read receipt" is generally just a waste of time. Anyway - I haven't heard back from them...but we're supposed to allow three weeks and it's only been 10 days so far. SteveBaker (talk) 04:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Thushara Priyamal Edirisinghe

According to a Sri Lanka Daily News report Thushara Priyamal Edirisinghe is powering a car by water, using a low amount of electricity. The car, traveled from Christ King College, Pannipitiya, Thushara, to Anuradhapura and back on three liters of water. Thushara claims energy is produced by the splitting water into dihydrogen and dioxygen using applied current then burning it in the engine (converting the dihydrogen and dioxygen back to water vapor). Thushara claims the technology has existed for 60 years and that the generator could be fixed to any petrol or diesel vehicle with suitable adjustments.

Thushara explained the attributed technology to the Prime Minister of Sri Lanka Ratnasiri Wickramanayaka at Temple Trees Wednesday, 15 July 2008 Prime Minister Ratnasiri Wickramanayaka extended the Government’s fullest support to his efforts to introduce the water-powered car to the Sri Lankan market including facilities to convert fuel-powered engines to water-powered ones.

Gdewilde (talk) 11:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Why have you dumped the body of a new article here? Oli Filth^{(talk|contribs)} 11:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I've gone through and pared down the purposed article section and think in a leaner form its worth adding. This is a prime example of a water fuelled car.--OMCV (talk) 11:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I see. It was a suggestion to merge this material in. What confused me was the existence of this new article: Thushara Priyamal Edirisinghe, which should probably be deleted in favour of merging into this article. Oli Filth^{(talk|contribs)} 11:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I added an adapted version of the above article to this page and support redirecting Thushara Priyamal Edirisinghe to water-fuelled car.--OMCV (talk) 12:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Google maps, the distance driven on 3 liters of water was close to 200 miles. The trouble with that is that even if you could convert all three liters of water to hydrogen without using any electricity at all, you get 0.33 kg of hydrogen. That's basic chemistry. That much hydrogen has the equivalent energy content of 1kg of gasoline - which is about a tenth of a gallon. He's not claiming anything special about the car or it's engine - so how is he able to claim to drive 200 miles on the energy equivalent of a tenth of gallon of gasoline? That's 2,000 miles per gallon! This is basic science - we need to find a way to say this in the article. SteveBaker (talk) 18:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The third reference ([[3]) is illuminating. It says that diesel powered cars need to run on 50% diesel and 50% water - and he explains that the gasoline vehicle also still needs to have the gasoline tank, fuel pump, etc need to be left connected up and to have some gasoline in the tank. This makes it an awful lot easier for him to fake the demos and run entirely on gasoline or diesel. SteveBaker (talk) 19:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Ehh its just another person who thinks mixing water (ie. water injection) or hydrogen with fuel is "running the car on water". What a shame. Noah Seidman (talk) 19:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

What's particularly sad/annoying about this case is that the scammer has managed to get the personal attention of the head of the Sri Lankan government. They clearly have no understanding as to what's going on - so they are likely to treat this as a matter of national pride and hand this sleeze-bag a pile of cash, land and prestige. He'll probably be able to sponge off of the government for years before they finally get sick of sinking money into a project that'll always claim to be just on the brink of making a full commercial version and turning a profit. <sigh> SteveBaker (talk) 00:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Scam?? And I thought you had discovered youtube and the pulse width modulators? I specially like the one Charles Garrett put together. lemme upload the picture for you.... 1 moment... --Gdewilde (talk) 00:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Some of the aforementioned sources are quite reliable and can be used within this article. --CyclePat (talk) 21:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Four of the more relevant ones already used in the article. Gdewilde wrote the section it just got trimmed down here and then trimmed down some more when it was put in.--OMCV (talk) 21:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

thougts?

I'd like to tag the article with this, anyone got a better way to do it or have thoughts? Perpetual motion machines are prime meat for the million dollar challenge...

File:Money-bags.jpg

This ability or phenomenon is eligible for a prize of over one million dollars from the James Randi Educational Foundation Million Dollar Challenge, if it can be demonstrated in a controlled environment.

Guyonthesubway (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't seem very encyclopeadic. I don't think that template belongs on ANY articles! SteveBaker (talk) 20:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts on how to get that message across? Guyonthesubway (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

What message are you trying to get across? WP works on explicit statements, not hints and indirect messages. DMacks (talk) 20:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I definitely oppose the use of this template, but if James Randi Educational Foundation does have a $1M prize specifically for demonstration of a real water-powered car, then this fact might be worth mentioning somewhere in the text of the article, especially since the prize is (presumably) unclaimed. Yilloslime (t) 20:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It is not directly for water powered cars, but more generally for any paranormal 'thing', and perpetual motion machines are mentioned specifically as eligible. http://www.randi.org/joom/content/view/158/97/ Guyonthesubway (talk) 21:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought that thought was spelled thought and not thougt... That template is too much like advertising and shouldn't be used anywhere. swaq 21:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I thinq you might be right...

The One Million Dollar Paranormal challlenge: This ability or phenomenon is eligible for a prize of over one million dollars from the James Randi Educational Foundation Million Dollar Challenge, if it can be demonstrated in a controlled environment.
Any one know if you can send a parameter to a template? Guyonthesubway (talk) 21:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you though about including this in a Trivia section within the article. Sort of like; Did you know? And change the wording to something like: In 2008, the (association) launched a (whatever contest) to try and prove the functionality of Meyer's fuel cell. (Mind you, I don't know if this is totally correct). --CyclePat (talk) 18:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the talk page, without a template, is probably sufficient b.t.w. But I do appreciate the information, and a template can be quite handy. So, maybe you should keep the template but only use it on the talk page section... make an appropriate section... called "potential awards" or some appropriate section (and don't forget to make an automatic category for the template). What I mean by that is... instead of calling it "thoughts"[sic], call it "Awards". And finally, make sure it's not a permanent template, in the sense that it will not remain at the top of a talk page and will be archived. --CyclePat (talk) 18:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

p.s.: The only reason I think a template should remain is if the awards specifically mentions the subject matter. Otherwise it doesn't really belong. --CyclePat (talk) 18:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

"Spare" energy from a cars' alternator

HHO creation and burning in cars is about using the untapped electrical energy created by the alternator, which goes wasted. The alternator spins 100% of the time, it's capacity is from 60amps to 115amps or more. To run a normal vehicles 20 amps is plenty. What happens to the remaining production.... it is unused. So converting it to HHO and burning it is just making the engine more efficent. You could argue that a better alternator system could perclude the need for an HHO system.

The evidence that HHO systems enhance fuel mileage is known. You are missing the point in your article, this is all about using wasted amperage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.211.101.7 (talk) 22:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh Jeez - you've been reading the scammer's propaganda over on Water4Fuel.com and elsewhere haven't you! Sadly, (and like nearly all free energy proponents) they don't understand the most basic of principles which they so excitedly propound.

When an alternator spins with nothing to drive (electrically), it needs much less force to rotate it since you are only overcoming the friction in its bearings. When you put a load onto it (such as the battery charger or a hydrolysis unit) it becomes much harder to turn - because you are causing a current to flow. So it saps more power from the cars engine. Hence it's not "wasting energy" when it's not driving anything...except for it's internal friction - which is wasted no matter what. The idea that energy is being generated by the alternator and somehow falling off the end of the wires or something is frankly silly!

If you don't believe me, do an experiment. Find a really small DC electric motor from an old toy or something. An electric motor is essentially identical to an alternator and will suffice to prove a point. Spin the motor with your fingers - then connect a flashlight bulb across the motors terminals and spin the motor again so the bulb lights up. You'll clearly be able to feel how much harder the motor ("generator") is to turn when it's doing work compared to when it's spinning freely. If you don't feel the difference immediately - connect up more flashlight bulbs in parallel and you'll eventually be convinced.

That point being made - everything else you say falls into a small soggy heap on the floor where it may be safely ignored.

In future, please start new discussions at the bottom of the page...thanks!

SteveBaker (talk) 04:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

(ec)

An interesting arguement that shows that the person making it does not have a fundamental understanding of the operation of an alternator.

Quite simply, the mechanical load that an alternator applies to the engine that is driving it is proportional to the current drawn from it at the time plus inefficiency. If the current being drawn is only 20A, the mechanical load is a lot less than when the current being drawn is 120A.

This fundamental misconception could be a good thing to add coverage of to the article. --Athol Mullen (talk) 04:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

At 60A the alternator is pulling .97hp from the engine and at 115A it is taking 1.85hp. Not counting inefficiencies. It would need to supply the amount of hydrogen equivalent to run a 2hp engine at best. Here's the challenge, get a small 2hp engine (hint, they already make 1300W generators) attach it to an alternator, attach the alternator to one of these gizmoz and see if it will run itself. It's not surprising that noone has made it work. If it can't produce enough to power itself, how could it even "enhance" an engine's performance?I55ere (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Citations

It appears that, at least on one noteworthy point, the citations in the article contradict what they are cited as confirming. Specifically, the article states:

"A number of well-known chemical compounds combine with water to release hydrogen, but in all cases the energy required to produce such compounds exceeds the energy obtained reacting them with water.[37][38][39]"

Citations 37, 38, and 39, as far as I can tell, make no such claims. In fact, they claim the opposite of what the author says they do. 2 of them are from companies discussing processes they have developed whereby water can be used as an efficient fuel via extracting hydrogen on-site in automobiles, and another is a New Scientist article supportive of the idea. None claim the amount of energy to extract hydrogen by these particular processes exceeds the amount of energy that can be obtained from burning the extracted hydrogen as a fuel, nor that the amount of energy needed to obtain the chemical compounds used in such processes. It would be ludicrous for these companies and New Scientist to discuss such alternatives as feasible if that was the case.

Whether you believe water can be used a fuel or not, the simple fact is these sources do not support the author's contentions and in fact, flatly contradict them. I would like to see some explanation for these discrepancies since it appears the citations actually contradict this central claim by the author to discredit the efficiency of water as an alternative fuel.

Cecilman (talk) 01:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilman (talk • contribs) 01:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I have made a small change,[4] to clarify exactly what information in the first paragraph comes from the cited references, and what info is not explicitly mentioned. Hope this clears things up.Yilloslime (t) 01:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The New Scientist paper has that statement covered - they say the efficiency will be around 11%. I moved that reference up. SteveBaker (talk) 01:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

comment below from cecilman

Thank you for correcting that. It certainly appeared that the placement of the citations suggested they backed up the claim the energy used is greater than the potential energy of the hydrogen. However, I note that you cite the New Scientist article now.

"In all cases the energy required to produce such compounds exceeds the energy obtained from their reaction with water.[40]"

However, your citation does not appear to back up your claim. In fact, the article appears to still contradict the claim you cite it for.

"By reacting water with the element boron, their system produces hydrogen that can be burnt in an internal combustion engine or fed to a fuel cell to generate electricity."

Moreover, I am not sure about this comment in the article:

"While these may seem at first sight to be 'water-fuelled cars', they actually take their energy from the chemical that reacts with water,"

Are you suggesting that all of their energy stems from the chemicals used to react with the water, and no energy comes from the actual hydrogen being burned. One reason I ask is you also suggest somehow these claims violate laws of thermodynamics......maybe I am missing something, but how is burning water any different than burning oil which also must go through a refining process (refining used loosely here in regard to water). Both water and oil contain properties that are combustible. With water, the inherent fuel not added but simply extracted is primarily the hydrogen, correct?

Also, your citation's comments on 11% are in reference to the entire system using solar energy for electricity and states this is on a par with petroleum-based systems:

"The energy to drive these processes would ultimately come from the sun. The team calculates that a system of mirrors could concentrate enough sunlight to produce electricity from solar cells with an efficiency of 35 per cent. Overall, they say, their system could convert solar energy into work by the car's engine with an efficiency of 11 per cent, similar to today's petrol engines."

In terms of cost comparisons, they state:

"The team calculates that a car would have to carry just 18 kilograms of boron and 45 litres of water to produce 5 kilograms of hydrogen, which has the same energy content as a 40-litre tank of conventional fuel. An Israeli company has begun designing a prototype engine that works in the same way, and the Japanese company Samsung has built a prototype scooter based on a similar idea." Cecilman (talk) 02:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilman (talk • contribs) 02:01, 21 August

2008 (UTC)

The part of the New Scientist article that I'm thinking of says:

"The team calculates that a system of mirrors could concentrate enough sunlight to produce electricity from solar cells with an efficiency of 35 per cent. Overall, they say, their system could convert solar energy into work by the car's engine with an efficiency of 11 per cent, similar to today's petrol engines."

So 35% of sunlight is turned into electricity in their Boron processing plant - and the engine produces only 11% - so less than a third of the electricity used to process the BoronOxide back into Boron actually ends up as power. That means that reprocessing the Boron requires three times as much energy as the engine produces - which backs up the statement that:

"the energy required to produce such compounds exceeds the energy obtained from their reaction with water"

You ask:

"Are you suggesting that all of their energy stems from the chemicals used to react with the water, and no energy comes from the actual hydrogen being burned."

No. It's a little more complex than that. I'm saying that in these "Hydrogen on Demand" systems, all of the energy to split water into hydrogen and oxygen in the car comes from the chemicals (the metal hydride). The energy from the chemical is then bound up inside the hydrogen and oxygen molecules - and when they are burned in the engine (or preferably in a hydrogen fuel cell), that energy is released and turned into motion, heat and sound by the car's engine. So long as the energy comes from the metal hydride fuel - which is then depleted and has to be replaced - then no laws of physics are violated. You just "burned" some metal hydride fuel using a rather complicated set of intermediaries...but you burned that fuel. What's interesting about metal hydride fuel is that you can take the stuff that's left over - pump raw electrical energy back into it and get fuel back that you can put back into your car. BUT that step requires more energy (three times more energy, according to the New Scientist reference) than the car produces...so compared to charging up a set of batteries, this Boron-fuelled car is kinda inefficient. However, convenience in terms of refuelling MIGHT maybe make up in convenience what is lost in energy efficiency. These are NOT water fuelled cars - but they seem enough like them if you don't understand them that I wanted to explain what's going on with them in the article so that people don't imagine that the Boron-fuelled car (which really works!) is an example of a water fuelled car (which universally do not, cannot, will not EVER, work).

SteveBaker (talk) 02:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

from cecilman

Your comment:

"The energy from the chemical is then bound up inside the hydrogen and oxygen molecules - and when they are burned in the engine (or preferably in a hydrogen fuel cell), that energy is released and turned into motion, heat and sound by the car's engine. So long as the energy comes from the metal hydride fuel - which is then depleted and has to be replaced - then no laws of physics are violated. You just "burned" some metal hydride fuel using a rather complicated set of intermediaries...but you burned that fuel."

So just to be clear, you are saying no hydrogen is actually being burned, just the metal? The citations in the article include specific claims of the hydrogen being burned. Let's call the electricity E and the additive A and the hydrogen H. It appears that you are claiming:

E + A + H = E + A

When in reality,

E + A + H > E + A

The article specifically states for one process:

"2H2O → 2H2 + O2 [Electrolysis step] 2H2 + O2 → 2H2O [Combustion step]"

However, this can only be true if an equal amount of 2H20 is produced. If less 2H20 is produced, some of it then is burned as the proponents of water as a fuel contend. I see nothing substantiating the claim no hydrogen is actually burned, just the electricity used in this case or the metals added in others.

Can substantiate no hydrogen is actually burned?

I don't know the details on the 11% claim but they are claiming the effiency is similar to the efficiency of producing petroleum. Someone somewhere must calculate the energy to drill, trasport, refine and transport again petrol, and keep in mind engines don't burn all the energy of petrol but apparently someone has, and their process is just as efficient according to their claim.

Cecilman (talk) 03:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 03:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Hydrogen is burned in part of the process. But you have to consider the whole process, and the question to keep in mind is, "Where is the energy coming from—the water, the metal, divine intervention?" A very similar discussion happened in this thread at Talk:Genepax some time back. Check that out, particularly my comments which start with: "Hopefully 147.83.xxx.xxx is straightened out now, but I can't resist taking a stab at making this a little clearer." (Please don't reopen that debate, but continue discussion here if you still have questions.) Yilloslime (t) 04:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Your question:

"Where is the energy coming from—the water, the metal..."

The answer is quite simple. It comes from the water (hydrogen) and the metal in this case. By the way, who ever brought up divine intervention?

Cecilman (talk) 05:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

If the energy comes from the hydrogen and the hydrogen comes from the water by some other process, then it's not true that the energy "comes from" the water, unless the process that creates it is driven by energy in the water. Which is not true: X + H2O → Y + H2 (for arbitrary collections of materials X and Y) won't work unless X is fairly high-energy compared to Y. H2 doesn't magically appear from water, you have to use energy to drive it out. DMacks (talk) 14:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

One point that sticks out is the analogy of refining oil and splitting the water molecule. If I put fire to crude oil, fresh from the well, it will burn. It has energy. If I put fire to water, fresh from the well, it goes out. The refining process for oil does nothing more than clean and separate the oil. The oil is not consumed in the process, only separated into its lighter components, as letting whole milk stand will separate the cream (another energy source). The energy used for refining is far less than the energy inherent in the crude oil to begin with. The only way to make water "burn" is to separate it, either through electrolysis or chemical reaction. Using Boron will create hydrogen, but in the chemical reaction, the boron is consumed. If this were to be used to fuel a car, the boron would be the fuel, oxydized by the water releasing hydrogen as a byproduct.I55ere (talk) 16:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Definition of water-fueled car....

The article starts with:

"A water-fuelled car is a automobile that is claimed to use water as its fuel or produces fuel from water onboard, with no other energy input. "

None of the proposed water-fuelled cars mentioned in the article fit this description. It seems there is confusion throughout the article in part because it begins with this poor definition. For example, there is no proposal I am aware of, nor cited here, that purports to produce fuel from water on-board with no energy input. That's just false to claim so. There are various techniques, some listed here, for extracting hydrogen from water or turning water into a gas, but all them specify quite plainly the need for electricity and often other additives. Cecilman (talk) 03:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilman (talk • contribs) 02:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

That's not true. Genepax, Stanley Meyer, Garrett and Thushara Priyamal Edirisinghe all make the clear, unambiguous claim that they are extracting energy from water. Sure, they all require electricity to initiate the splitting of the water - but the claim is that the battery is simply recharged from the cars alternator. (Except Genepax who claim the energy is extracted directly from water with some kind of membrane/catalyst gizmo). Meyer, Garrett and Edirisinghe all claim the energy comes from the water. Read the references - it's pretty clear. They are all either frauds - but that's what the article is about. SteveBaker (talk) 02:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

from cecilman below

They say they are extracting energy from the water, sure? But they also claim electricity is added to do this and usually an additive as well, right? It may be a small correction but to misdefine water-fueled cars off the bat is a serious mistake, in my opinion.

Moreover, there is a greater issue at stake here. Are you suggesting no energy is added by the hydrogen in the water? Your comments on "oxyhydrogen" suggest that since you claim in one place the process is identical in reverse to electrolysis.

"Since the combustion step is the exact reverse of the electrolysis step, the energy released in combustion exactly equals the energy consumed in the electrolysis step"

If it is identical, then there is no hydrogen burned at all, right? The water just reverses into a different form and only the energy used to change the form is used. The problem with making this claim, besides it being unsubtantiated, is that clearly that's not what the proponents claim, and moreover with the other forms of "water" as a fuel mentioned in the article, they too insist hydrogen is actually being burned. It seems to me that the crux of the issue then is whether hydrogen and oxygen is actually being consumed or not. If it is, then claiming there is a violation of thermodynamics laws is kind of silly. If it is not, then all the proponents are mistaken in their claims hydrogen is actually the fuel in the first place.

It isn't clear, in my opinion, whether you are claiming energy can be obtained from burning hydrogen or not. If hydrogen is being burned, then the issue of how much energy is used to extract the hydrogen is still an issue, but the argument it cannot exceed the energy in-put on theoritical grounds is no more valid than saying the energy used to create gasoline from oil cannot exceed the costs and energy to refine the oil. Both oil and water (hydrogen) are fuels that are added to the process and so add energy into the process. In fact, to claim that such an addition to an energy system is not accounted for is the violation of thermodynamics laws as the only way for the energy to equal the amount of electricity and additives put into it is if the added energy of the hydrogen is not used.

Cecilman (talk) 03:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC) Cecilman (talk) 03:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding 03:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure that Steve will walk you through this stuff better than I can. But I have to point out that the hydrogen in water is the water. The H₂O doesn't have any H₂ in it or useful combustion energy. Thats why its used to put out fires. In contrast oil (a good reducing agent) is a fuel.

To take water (H₂O) and separate it into H₂ and O₂ via electrolysis or any other way requires energy input. There are always inefficiency involved so you dump in extra energy (there are thermodynamics to support this). After that you can get some energy back by burning the H₂ in an internal combustion engine or running the H₂ through a fuel cell in both cased reaching the more stable H₂O known as water. But again there are inefficiency and not all the energy comes out (there are thermodynamics to support this). Please read the article a few more times and related articles on perpetual motion, water, combustion, water electrolysis, and just think about this stuff for a while.--OMCV (talk) 04:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Ineffeciencies is one thing. Claiming the process is electrolysis in reverse despite the probable fact less water and so less hydrogen comes out at the end of it is another. I raised specific questions with no real response to them, in my opinion. The article really should present the proponent's arguments clearly and the critics' arguments clearly, which is basically the idea that hydrogen cannot be anything but an energy carrier despite all the observations and claims to the contrary. I don't believe that is being adequately explained, nor substantiated, and certainly there are numerous projects in development with prototypes that deny that claim, one being the Blacklight Power project confirmed by guys like Randy Booker, a physics professor at UNC-A. Rather than insist all the people observing more energy being produced from hydrogen than put in to create it, (and even if that were the case it doesn't mean it wouldn't be more viable than gasoline), why not more evenly present the different opinions and sides of this issue: both what proponents of hydrogen are saying or some of them and the critics' insistence that it's impossible?

As it stands, the article is more an expression of partisan opinion with the criticism unsubstantiated and many errors in citation and definitions.

Cecilman (talk) 05:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

There is a conservation of mass. All the atoms that go in the front of any of these systems come out the back. You are correct hydrogen is an energy carrier in most of these systems, the question remains "what is the energy source?" For all the examples in this article (and Blacklight Power) the origin of the power is mysterious or identified/implied to be water. Water is not chemical energy source and those who claim it is are confused or frauds. Its kinda wilde how familiar this feels, but if you repeat your specific question myself or someone else will try to answer them.--OMCV (talk) 05:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

When saying that a fuel cell is electrolysis in reverse, it is doing exactly that. Electrical energy is used to convert water to 2H2 and O2. When recombined in a fuel cell 2H2 + O2 = 2H20 and electrical energy is released. Neither electrolysis or fuel cells are 100% efficient. Thermodynamics by name deals with heat and both electrolysis and fuel cells generate heat. Heat is raw energy and is taken from the sum totals, so we cannot get to 100%. In a perfect world, with perfect cathodes and anodes that would never oxydize. With perfect containment of the smallest atom and superconducting electrical connections, then theoretically water could be converted and recombined perpetually. Always getting the same amount of water out, as put in. No heat generated and also, no extra electrons. The net energy is 0. There is a finite number of both H2 and O atoms in the system. A finite number of electrons orbiting those atoms. To go from water (Finite) to gases (Finite) and back to water (Finite) all atoms have to start and finish with the same number of protons, neutrons and electrons. Nothing is left over. Now go to thermodynamics again and check out "conservation of energy". Even if this perfect system could be built, without something to "stimulate" it into action it would not work just for the sake of working. 0 energy in, 0 energy out. Water in the water tank would remain just that, water at a constant volume and temperature. The gases in the fuel cell would remain also at a constant volume and temperature and no useful "work" being performed. Anything connected to this sytem would do absolutely nothing because, there is nothing to spare.I55ere (talk) 17:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Editing

How does this work? The simple reality is the article needs to be editted. The idea that people claim nothing but water, no other energy input, is involved is patently false. Every doggone one of these things says they need electricity to separate the hydrogen from water. I tried editting it to reflect that, and it is immediately editted back.

What gives?

Isn't it correct that all these water-car people admit and say they need to use electricity? The only beef is some say the only amount of power they can use is the electricity and fuel from the additives put in whereas they claim the hydrogen itself is produces more power. Regardless of what someone thinks, the article should reflect at least basic accuracy in what people claim a water-fuelled car is.

Moreover, since others believe and are investing many millions based on prototypes they insist show hydrogen can more than an energy carrier, the article should state "many consider" that water-fuelled cars violate thermodynamics laws. I mean heck, this is not the place for someone to express their opinions in trying to insist something is bunk. This is the place to INFORM.

Just state what most or many consider and what others claim.......geesh!

Cecilman (talk) 06:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

All of the cars discussed in the section Water-fuelled_car#Technology (with the exception of some mentioned in Water-fuelled_car#Hydrogen_as_a_supplement subsection) are purported to use water and only water for power. If you don't believe me, read the cited references. Yes, electricity is involved the functioning of the vehicles, but it's claimed that this electricity is generated by the vehicle itself, with no input other than water. (This is analogous to a gasoline powered car. Electricity is needed to make the sparkplugs and other essential components works, but the electricity is generated by the car itself, with no other input besides gasoline. The reason you can do this with gasoline but not with water is that gasoline can be combined with oxygen (which is readily available for free in the air) and converted into lower energy combustion products (CO2, H2O) and the energy that's released in the process can be used to run the car. No analogous reactions exist for water which could convert it into a lower energy substances, releasing useable energy in the process. Yilloslime (t) 06:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

You commented:

"Yes, electricity is involved the functioning of the vehicles, but it's claimed that this electricity is generated by the vehicle itself, with no input other than water."

That's incorrect. First off, electricity precedes the energy from the water in all these systems. It's not just electricity for the regular operations of the car, but rather they all state electricity is used in making the gas or hydrogen. I understand what you want to say, which is they are claiming they are getting the power from the water itself and not the electricity, but you have worded it incorrectly. You cannot say "no other energy input" when they all say another energy input is needed. You have to say they are claiming more energy output than is being input by the electricity used to extract hydrogen and any additives supplied.

This shouldn't even be debated. It's a matter of standard and proper English regardless of your view of the matter.

Cecilman (talk) 06:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Note: it appears every attempt to edit the article to make it accurate is changed back,and looking at the Discussion, it also appears that I'm not the only one that has noticed some problems.....what is wiki all about? My experience with this one article is causing me to change my opinion of it. It doesn't really seem to represent some sort of consensus opinion or varied opinions but merely reflects who is the most dogmatic, maybe the one with the best computer program, about editting it.

Cecilman (talk) 07:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that the issue is that you've misunderstood what the promoters of these perpetual motion devices are actually claiming. The claims are fairly consistently that they can extract energy from water and end up with water. The usual cycle is that the water is electrolysed to produce hydrogen and oxygen, which are usually delivered to an internal combustion engine as a mixture just as it came out of the electrolysis device. The internal combustion engine drives the vehicle but also powers a generator or alternator, which powers the electrolysis to supply further fuel. That is the type of hoax device that this article is primarily about. Your edit, while apparently well meaning, has missed the point. The electricity does not precede the thermodynamically impossible cycle except when "starting" the cycle.--Athol Mullen (talk) 07:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not misunderstanding it at all. You are stating a fuel-based system whereby fuel needs to be added into the system is a perpetual motion machine because you do not believe hydrogen can be a fuel in that sense but rather just an energy carrier. The problem is we have observations that counter your argument and so the jury has to be out on the issue until more is understood on what is going on.

Couple of points. "Except" means the way the article is written is incorrect because there is more energy input. The article then is misleading people on what water-car companies and people are claiming. Secondly, it's obvious the article and the comments here by some are intended to simply present one contention, that these are frauds and perpetual motion machines. Perhaps that's the reason for misleading people right off the bat? That makes the article not an encyclopedia article but rather a partisan opinion piece. What is missing is the fact others don't view what is occuring in the process as simply electrolysis in reverse and have hard observations to back that up. A similar tension exists with the BlackLight Power project. The observations are of more power coming out than is being put into the hydrogen which suggests hydrogen can be used as a fuel, that there are unusual properties with hydrogen that be tapped into. It's a hard observable even if the interpretations of it are not.

It also fits the observation of what occurs when welding with water gas or whatever one wishes to call it. The gas displays unusual properties in the manner in which it reacts with the material.

So just because some folks say it cannot be occuring doesn't really add up when we have evidence it is. Perhaps the truth is that process of burning hydrogen can be more complicated than some of you believe, and so hydrogen can actually be a fuel rather than simply an energy carrier.

Cecilman (talk) 17:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by August 2008 (UTC)

Actually we have no actual WP:RS/WP:CITE evidence that it is actually creating energy solely from water, yet we do have some supported statements that such a thing would be impossible. Burden of proof is on those who assert WP:FRINGE. DMacks (talk) 17:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

66.177.50.158 (talk) 17:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

How can you say you have no evidence when you have working devices demonstrating the effect? Take the Blacklight Power project. Physics professors including one from UNC-A were invited to come and inspect the technology with full access to the experiment. They came back saying that indeed more power comes out than is being put into the hydrogen to make it. Blacklight has a theory on how this can be which may or may not be correct, but the effect has definitely been verified by 3rd parties. To claim there is no evidence is absurd in the face of companies, often with 3rd party inspections, brining out actual demonstrations of it.

Cecilman (talk) 17:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at Blacklight Power. They have one professor who says their on to something and a ton of critics. Remember that not all 3rd party's are impartial. Beyond that they are claiming a lot of fictitious chemistry about hydrogen based on the writings of a physician. This is well outside the mainstream understanding reality held by science. Its assuredly delusional or a fraud. Just review Blacklight Power, your efforts might be better spent over there.--OMCV (talk) 20:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

If any of what you are claiming to be true is ever going to make it into the article, then you are going to need to provide reliable, third party sources to substantiate it. The policies that must be complied with are here: WP:RS and WP:V, and also WP:CITE. WP:PARITY may also be relevant. Hope this helps. Yilloslime (t) 21:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it's incorrect to claim only one professor verifies Blacklight's system. Moreover, there is no one it seems that has actually observed and tested the system who agrees with the critics. That alone suggests the critics are wrong, especially since the 3rd party people that do verify the claims did so as initial skeptics. Whether the theory advanced to explain the phenomena is correct, there is no reasonable doubt as to the phenomena.

In terms of citations, what I have tried to do is correct erroneous citation and point out there are few citations for the criticism of water as a fuel. There are bold statements the systems are simply electrolysis in reverse but no evidence or citation for that whereas the citations listed elsewhere generally state the opposite with a few exceptions.

When I have the time, I may look up and add citations and comments into the article that disagree with the views presented. However, it appears that regardless of evidence, the article will merely be editted back. I hadn't realized the nature of wikipedia was largely one where some advocate personal positions, as this piece does, rather than merely inform as to what respected opinion, including minority opinions on the facts, are saying. I guess I was naive in thinking the goal was more informative rather than advocacy.

In terms of Blacklight, it's worth noting a varied group of respected people believe the results do indeed show hydrogen can be used to produce more energy than it takes to produce the hygrogen. In fact, the evidence is so strong that they have attracted 50 million in investement money, mostly private. That sort of money, from sources like hedge funds, utilities, etc,.....indicates that unlike what the article here purports, this is not some fringe concept. That sort of money from varied and highly informed and educated sources, who are looking for profit, doesn't flow to ridiculous, fringe claims as this idea is presented in the article. The article should be revised to reflect both the claims of those who believe in and have tested hydrogen in this manner and it's critics rather than solely present the idea as a fringe and hoax.

I suspect no one here insisting it is a hoax has ever raised venture capital in the millions of dollars, nor has such eminent people attesting to their idea and on their board as Blacklight does. It is comical, in fact, to read the article when one is aware of the intense efforts to verify the claims of Blacklight, all of which have resulted in verifying that the system does in fact show more energy coming out than energy put in to produce the hydrogen. Such a varied group of investors, including regulated groups such as utilities, just don't put up 50 million dollars without a lot of due diligence to verify proof of concept and in this case, proof a working prototype duly examined and demonstrates as feasible.

Cecilman (talk) 23:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

23:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The following policies determine what topics get covered on wikipedia and how they are described: WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS. Please read them if you have not. Note that nowhere in any of these policies is the idea espoused that raising $50 million in venture capital proves that an invention works. Maybe that's proof enough by your standards, but wikipedia has it's own standards. If you want to contributed wikipedia, you have abide its standards, even if you don't like them or don't understand the logic behind them. Wikipedia requires that we look at what reliable third party sources have said about a topic, and write articles that accurately reflect the mix views in presented in those articles. Yilloslime (t) 23:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Reliable third party sources like tenured and well-respected physics professors....oh, er no apparently because they disagree with us, eh? How about numerable repeatable, verifiable demonstrations....nah, can't be valid because we choose not to accept it. How about a wide ranging due diligence process involving numerous validations of the system from academics and others prior to attracting 50 million.....nah, we here at wiki choose to insist only one side of the issue and want to denigrate anyone disagreeing with us, regardless of whether they are respected academics, technicians or whoever and label them either liars or nutjobs, calling such things scams and hoaxes.

The simple fact is you guys come nowhere near abiding by the standards set in those wiki guidelines. It's a complete joke on your part to suggest otherwise. Moreover, you misrepresent what I have written suggesting I claim raising venture capital alone is a standard. No, but the standards do say that when respected, knowledgeable academics and others come forward with an idea that can be tested, is tested and so forth that it should be afforded a measure of respect in reporting here and not simply dismissed as a fringe concept or hoax. What you guys are doing is the classic straw man and disinformation approach and it doesn't belong on a site that claims to have the standards wiki does. Cecilman (talk) 05:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Have you read the policies that I and others have pointed you to?Yilloslime (t) 06:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I perused them earlier. If you would like me to point out the specific areas of violation of those policies on the article's part, I will. However, I find pointing out the obvious leading me to a less civil approach than I prefer and so am considering just avoiding wiki for awhile. One such guideline on whether something should be presented as credible (opposite of calling it a hoax or scam) is:

"In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses"

Another concept is that of neutrality. However, you are claiming data that has been published and confirmed numerous times in peer-reviewed literature is a hoax. It seems incredible that in light of overwhelming documentation of more energy output from hydrogen than the energy of the catalyst to move it into a plasma, that you still insist that there is no credible evidence of the phenomenon. Here are some articles which verify the concept has been experimentally observed and published in peer-reviewed journals. Please note, if you can, that the debate is largely about the theory explaining the phenomena, not claims as you suggest that the phenomena is a hoax. Please read the articles with that understanding.

For example, this peer-reviewed article makes the comment:

"Intensive laboratory research over much of the past decade at the Technical University of Eindhoven and at Blacklight Power, see Ref. [3] for a review of the several publicationsin refereed journals, on what has come to be known as the “hydrino” state of hydrogen has sent theorists scurrying to explain the experimental spectroscopic observations on the basis of known and trusted physical laws."

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:SahqUVGpc-4J:www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2007/astp5-8-2007/bourgoinASTP5-8-2007.pdf+Technical+University+of+Eindhoven+hydrogen+plasma+hydrino&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

This article is claiming a new energy level for hydrogen. There is nothing supporting creation of energy. Man with two legs (talk) 07:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

[Not sure how to indent like you did, but quit creating a straw man. No one is talking about creating energy but the release of energy from hydrogen itself.]

He then discusses the various theories and debates about them to explain the results, specifically whether the existence of the hydrino is real. But nowhere are the lab results themselves considered to be hoaxes or scams. They are published in peer-reviewed journals, and 3rd party sources such as the Technical University of Eindhoven, several college professors and others all confirm the lab results. Even those that disagree with the hydrino hypothesis that have nonetheless taken a look at the experiments and sought to verify the lab results all agree that the basic phenomenon of getting more energy from hydrogen via hydrogen plasmas (sounds exactly like Brown's gas, aquygen, HHO, etc,....) than the energy put in to create the plasma are real.

Here are more articles you should read and recognize you are calling something a "hoax" which has been repeatedly confirmed in lab results and published in peer-reviewed journals. Keep in mind the rules you asked me to read, which I had perused before though perhaps should read more closely, that discuss whether an idea has validity.....being published, having repeated observations of, academics accepting even in a minority, are specifically mentioned are they not?

"In a series of papers Mills and co-workers have argued that the results of a variety of experiments on hydrogen plasmas can only be explained by the existence of a new state in which the electron has less energy than the n=1 ground state. ...... Naudts says that results of Mills and co-workers have recently been confirmed by a group at the Technical University of Eindhoven. "Nothing is decided yet, but I think it is time to fill the holes in our theoretical understanding of the hydrogen atom."

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/22820

This article is claiming a new energy level for hydrogen. There is nothing supporting creation of energy. Man with two legs (talk) 07:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[Wrong, no one claims anything about creation of energy from nothing. That is simply your misunderstanding of what these papers are about.]Cecilman (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

[Once again, please don't misrepresent people and their claims as you are doing. Clearly, all along the argument is more energy can be released from hydrogen plasmas than is used as a catalyst to produce the plasma. You are just misrepresenting the claims here and dodging the issue.]

If you read the article, once again there is no one disputing the results, just the theory. Can you show me anyone that has reviewed any of the 60 or so papers published showing these results that argues effectively the data is wrong on energy output or something?

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/-link=8226983/1367-2630/4/1/370

This article is about transfer of energy from one atom to another and has nothing to do with creation of energy. Man with two legs (talk) 07:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[Wrong, no one claims anything about creation of energy from nothing. That is simply your misunderstanding of what these papers are about.]Cecilman (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

http://www.iop.org/EJ/ref/-prog=article/-target=inspec/1367-2630/7/1/127/4

This article is about transfer of energy from one atom to another and has nothing to do with creation of energy. Man with two legs (talk) 07:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0507193v2[Wrong, no one claims anything about creation of energy from nothing. That is simply your misunderstanding of what these papers are about.]Cecilman (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

This article is claiming a new energy level for hydrogen. There is nothing supporting creation of energy. Man with two legs (talk) 07:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)[Wrong, no one claims anything about creation of energy from nothing. That is simply your misunderstanding of what these papers are about.]Cecilman (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Just want to make it clear. The article needs seriour revision but apparently every edit is being reverted to the original. Specifically, the guidelines state:

" All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors. "

The article is not written from a neutral point of view, not even slightly. Clearly significant views whether right or wrong have been published repeatedly in scientific journals seeking to explain theoritically the experimentally confirmed results of hydrogen plasmas producing more energy than is used to create them. The very fact that respected peer-reviewed journals are publishing papers discussing ways to adjust scientific theory to explain this FACT demonstrates it is taken seriously, and so you absolutely cannot call it a scam or hoax as your article does and follow this most basic precept which wiki is suppossed to follow.

You can say many or perhaps the majority consider the claims bogus, a hoax or scam and explain why, but you must also credibly present what the other side claims here and that their views are taken seriously and published in peer-reviewed journals.

Cecilman (talk) 07:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Cecilman (talk) 06:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Like others before you, you don't understand:

1. that resonance is about energy transfer and storage. New energy states and new resonance phenomena do not create energy
2. any physicist demonstrating energy creation would win a Nobel prize. It is not the sort of thing that would be neglected if true.

Man with two legs (talk) 07:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

No, I understand full well. You are simply being obstinate in refusing to see what they are talking about. Please read the articles. One reason for the claim of the hydrino is that it is theorized hydrogen when it moves into this state gives off considerable excess energy. It's not creation of energy per se but rather energy given off moving from a higher energy state to a lower one. The reason for the hydrino hypothesis is to explain the lab results which confirm what proponents of Brown's gas, HHO, or however you want to describe various hydrogen-based plasmas have been reporting for years.

Now, we have repeated published verification of these facts. Just because you choose not to accept these facts does not mean it is proper for you to call them a hoax or fraud here. This is not the place for such advocacy, is it? Here is a layman's media article's description.

"What has much of the physics world up in arms is Dr Mills's claim that he has produced a new form of hydrogen, the simplest of all the atoms, with just a single proton circled by one electron. In his "hydrino", the electron sits a little closer to the proton than normal, and the formation of the new atoms from traditional hydrogen releases huge amounts of energy. ..... "We've done a lot of testing. We've got 50 independent validation reports, we've got 65 peer-reviewed journal articles," he said. "We ran into this theoretical resistance and there are some vested interests here. People are very strong and fervent protectors of this [quantum] theory that they use." Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North Carolina at Asheville (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy sources, was allowed unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this year. "We went in with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it would certainly be nice if this were true, in my position as head of a research institution, I really wouldn't want to make a mistake. The last thing I want is to be remembered as the person who derailed a lot of sustainable energy investment into something that wasn't real."

But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no doubt about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum physicists are looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very compelling," said Prof Maas. "Dr Booker and I have both put our professional reputations on the line as far as that goes." "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2005/nov/04/energy.science

He's got 65 peer-reviewed articles and 50 independent validation reports. That's been reported by others with similar statements in the links I've provided elsewhere. What do you have?

A misinterpretation of what is being presented and so you create a straw man and call it a hoax. If it were such a hoax, why are journals publishing it so much?

Seriously, read the articles. It's very clear they are claiming much smaller amounts of power can be used as a catalyst to produce hydrogen plasmas than the power gained from them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilman (talk • contribs) 08:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Not sure inserting edits into my paragraphs is proper so I won't do on your's yet. Your comment:

"This article is claiming a new energy level for hydrogen. There is nothing supporting creation of energy."

Did anyone make any claims of "creation of energy" as you put it? No, the point is energy is produced and the articles do indeed make that claim as all the lab results do. Read the peer-reviewed articles, and if they are too much, read the Guardian quote:

"In his "hydrino", the electron sits a little closer to the proton than normal, and the formation of the new atoms from traditional hydrogen releases huge amounts of energy."

Please note the term RELEASES, not creates, huge amounts of energy. Just to head you off, he's not talking about simply a transfer of the energy used to create the plasma. READ THE ARTICLES before commenting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilman (talk • contribs) 08:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Even if all that were true, it would be irrelevant for at least two reasons:

1. It refers to ISOLATED hydrogen atoms which do not exist in the molecules that make up water. The energy levels of an atom change when the atom is connected with another atom.
2. Once you have taken energy out, you have to put it back again before you can get it out again so there is no overall release of energy in any closed cycle, which includes anything that could be configured as a perpetual motion machine (even if it has not been)

Furthermore, in claiming these inventions don't work, the article conforms to established science. Wikipedia is not a forum for attempting to rewrite textbooks. Even you should understand that energy from water is currently regarded as fringe science.

Man with two legs (talk) 08:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

This article happens to be about Water Fuelled Car. Is Black Light Energy now purporting to run automobiles? Stay on track and focus on what the title of this article implies...A car that is fuelled by, runs on, breaks down and recombines water. Starting with water, ending with water and extracting useable energy in the process. Whatever is being done at Black Light Energy, it is not what this article was written for. Water Fuelled Car. If it is ambiguous, find a video of Stanley Meyer. Painted on the side of his dune buggy, I quote..."WATER POWERED CAR" not hydrogen powered, not fuel cell powered, not Black Light Energy Powered. It says Water Powered and that is the type of claims that this article is dealing with. Hydrogen by itself can be a fuel (when combined with the free oxygen in the atmosphere). If you can find hydrogen by itself, please lead the rest of us to it. There is no free hydrogen floating around in water and the amount of energy released by burning hydrogen with oxygen or combining with oxygen it in a fuel cell is well documented, proven and peer reviewed. The same goes for the amount of energy needed to break the hydrogen bond of the water molecule. The amazing part is....it is the same. Documented, tested, peer reviewed, published science.I55ere (talk) 17:51, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

"This article happens to be about Water Fuelled Car. Is Black Light Energy now purporting to run automobiles? Stay on track and focus on what the title of this article implies...A car that is fuelled by, runs on, breaks down and recombines water. Starting with water, ending with water and extracting useable energy in the process. "

Actually, a large part if not the bulk of the article is about presenting one interpretation of how such cars would work and claiming they violate thermodynamics laws. This is where the research on Blacklight Power and others is directly germane here. All of these water fuels are basically hydrogen-based plasmas. None of them are water in a liquid form. There has been a ton of research, including peer-reviewed published materials, that demonstrate hydrogen-based plasmas do indeed do exactly what the article insists is physically impossible. There is no denying this.

So the article needs to be changed. It should either drop the charges such hydrogen-based plasma technology is a hoax, scam and perpetual motion machine, or it should current scientific opinion in the literature and while mentioning many consider such results would violate thermodynamic laws, others have published results of acheiving these results, and there is a controversy of how theory can explain it.

If there is any integrity here, the article will be adjusted to reflect current, peer-reviewed documentation and observation of hydrogen-based plasmas being used to generate excess energy over and above the energy involved in inducing the plasma.

Cecilman (talk) 19:21, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion this falls under the "tiny minority" clause of wp:fringe, and ought not to be mentioned in the article. Also I don't accept the claim that there are "numerous peer-reviewed publications" in support. Not in reputable journals, there aren't. Looie496 (talk) 21:15, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Problem is that's your opinion. The simple fact is these findings are reported in very reputable journals contrary to your beliefs and as such, cannot be considered a fringe idea. You can choose to ignore this fact but it only serves to discredit your opinion. In fact, it's becomingly increasingly clear that many of those oppossed to the concept and findings are simply basing their views on prejudice instead of real science.

Cecilman (talk) 22:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Which journals would those be? In your flood of messages, I haven't been able to spot that information. I don't need a complete list, just naming the one or two best would get us started. Looie496 (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you start with the articles in the journals I have already provided? Is there a comprehension issue where you haven't seen them linked here yet? Here they some of what has been linked so far.

http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0507193v2 http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/-link=8226983/1367-2630/4/1/370 http://www.iop.org/EJ/ref/-prog=article/-target=inspec/1367-2630/7/1/127/4 http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/22820

On the following comment:

"..."WATER POWERED CAR" not hydrogen powered, not fuel cell powered, not Black Light Energy Powered. It says Water Powered and that is the type of claims that this article is dealing with. "

I didn't realize you were under the mistaken impression that people were claiming to use liquid water rather than a hydrogen plasma from water to run cars. It appears you just are caught off guard, as you put it, by the labelling. No one is claiming to run cars or anything off via water in it's normal form, meaning liquid water. Take some time to learn what the proponents of the idea are stating and the degree of evidence for it, and then you or whomever could write and edit a proper, balanced article on the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilman (talk • contribs) 03:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

The scope of this article

The scope of this article has expanded to beyond purely water fueled cars. It now also discusses the use of hydrogen as a supplement, the "gasoline pill", and hydrogen on demand technologies. So I'm if wondering either a name-change or a splitting off of sub articles is in order. The content of the article, regardless of title, seems, in my opinion, to hold together quit nicely, so I'm provisionally opposed to splitting. The hydrogen-on-demand stuff seems like the most obvious candidate to be split since unlike the rest of the stuff discussed, this technology doesn't violate the laws of nature, but it's so frequently misunderstood and confused with water-as-fuel cars, that I still think it makes the most sense to discuss it here. So I would argue for changing the name of the article to something like "water as fuel". Or I guess a third option--and I'm starting think this is my favorite--would be to leave the name alone and not split anything, but instead change the part of the LEAD that says "This article focuses on those cars or motors which purport to extract their energy directly from water" to something like "This article focuses on those cars or motors which purport to extract their energy directly from water and related devices, as well as technologically feasible systems which are frequently mislabeled as water fueled." Or something which gets at the expanded scope but is worded better than this. Thoughts? Yilloslime (t) 06:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I think change you suggest is good, especially on clarifying the issue and agree with including the part on hydrogen as a supplement here, but think the pill additive stuff is really a separate topic. I also think there is a bit of dogma in the article. Clearly there are a lot of people that believe that have created a system whereby they can get more out of hydrogen than is put in. Sure, plenty say it violates the laws of thermodynamics and so it should say that, but there isn't really enough about why respected scientists and technicians and others believe they are observing something different.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilman (talk • contribs) 06:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Cecilman (talk) 06:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I think all you need to say is "This article focuses on those cars or motors which purport to extract their energy directly from water and related devices." The included devices are mentioned only because of their relationship to water fuel scams. I also prefer the idea of the title being "water as fuel" it covers the core issue. This way it doesn't matter if the water is powering a lawn mower or car. I think article is much improved and the recent edits have been good, keep up the excellent work Yilloslime.--OMCV (talk) 13:19, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Such a name would also alleviate the WP:ENGVAR cycles that the current title endures. --Athol Mullen (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

66.177.50.158 (talk) 17:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

a word on neutrality

The wiki article does not take a neutral view on the available facts and opinion on various hydrogen-based plasmas reported to give off excess energy and display unusual properties. There has been considerable, published, peer-reviewed verifications of the phenomena despite the article suggesting such claims are scams and hoaxes.

One such example:

"A variety of experimental configurations have been employed to measure excess energy in low-pressure hydrogen gas/catalyst systems (Phillips, et al. 1996; Jansson, 1997; Mills, 2001). One of the recent experiments (Mills, 2001) will be described briefly here since the authors reported extremely high heat release (orders of magnitude greater than H2/O2 combustion) and the reported figures were used in preliminary calculations of BlackLight Rocket performance.

....

In a variety of experiments performed as part of the Phase I study, there was indeed a clear, repeatable difference (approximately 20 W) between measured power corresponding to water bath heating rates for control gases vs. H2/catalyst gases."

http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/752Marchese.pdf

Note as well articles indicating the theory to explain the results of excess energy from hydrogen are controversial. The tendency is to dispute the theory, not the fact. The wiki article claims the fact is itself a hoax, but apparently reputable scientific publications take the same facts as credible and worth discussing.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/22820

http://www.m-hikari.com/astp/astp2007/astp5-8-2007/bourgoinASTP5-8-2007.pdf

Cecilman (talk) 07:57, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0507193v2

The peer reviewed articles discuss theoretical energy states, these theoretical states are the extent of the 3rd party review I believe. Its a big jump from theoretical eigenstates to observed reality and an even further jump to applied technology. Thats irrelevant because your vexation belongs on the hydrino page. This will change when there is non-self published information on the observation that over-unity device can be built around hydrogen. However even if hydrogen has ground states lower than previously expected it just means the ground state needs reassigning. But that still doesn't meter here since it doesn't change any of the arguments on this page since none of them are based on the ground states of hydrogen. I could offer more arguments on the nature of a catalyst and Blacklight's application of the term but this isn't the place. When you come back with citations they should deal directly with an over-unity device, the subject matter of this page. In the mean time would you be interested in investing in a venture involving the developments I have made in cold fusion technology? Its based on hydrogen in a platinum lattice modeled by Blacklight's millsian.--OMCV (talk) 13:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Just to state it again, stick with the title and what it implies. Water Fuelled Car. Who claims to have built them? How do they operate? Where are they now? Good points are what is not a water fuelled car and the scientific evidence that they are hoax's and fraud. When someone builds a genuinely water fuelled/powered car and puts it out for scientific review, which means it can be duplicated and the results published, then it will be accepted. There is no reason not to satisfy the scientific community since patents are available that would protect the inventor while the tech is going through review. Patents don't prove anything works, but they do protect an inventor's interests. So far, the score is Science all, Water Fuelled Car zero.I55ere (talk) 18:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Your comment:

T"he peer reviewed articles discuss theoretical energy states, these theoretical states are the extent of the 3rd party review I believe. Its a big jump from theoretical eigenstates to observed reality and an even further jump to applied technology. "

This is completely incorrect. The article discusses theoritical energy states in order to EXPLAIN OBSERVED LAB RESULTS. You guys are claiming such lab results, repeatedly published in peer-reviewed journals and independently verified, don't exist because in your world you mistakenly think obtaining energy from hydrogen in this manner is an over-unity device and a perpetual motion machine. It is not, and no one claims it is. You are just so confused as to what the claims are you misrepresent them in the article and fail to address the substance of what many credible people are saying and what has been published numerous times in peer-reviewed journals on the potential for hydrogen-based plasmas.

The sad thing is rather than take a neutral stance, you are violating wiki standards and insisting on characterizing using hydrogen-based plasmas in a manner opposite of what these published journals are saying. Regardless, one fact is clear. More energy is being produced from the hydrogen than from the catalyst used to induce the plasma. You need to change the article to reflect this fact instead of erreously insisting accomplishing that is equivalent to a perpetual motion machine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cecilman (talk • contribs) 19:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I've just read all of the references that Cecilman puts forth. They are talking about a HIGHLY theoretical energy state of a relativistic hydrogen atom - the theory (according to other peer reviewed reports) is a result of a mathematical slip up - and the organization that's pushing it are developing rocket engines in a tiny engineering department of an almost unheard of private university. Please tell me how ANY of that has the slightest, remotest relationship to water powered cars? Hydrolysis? Anything? The jump from this to "You can run your car on water" is about as big as the jump from "Hello Kitty" to "The moon landings were a hoax". It's nothing whatever to do with this article - and even if it was, it's marginal theory that's hotly disputed from an organization with very little standing. Really, this is ridiculous. SteveBaker (talk) 00:10, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Steve, if you had read the articles, you would noted they are talking of the exact same thing, hydrogen-based plasmas. In fact, the 3 ways they indicate to make these plasmas are the exact methods the water-fuel car guys have said they use. They are all talking of the same fuel. The reason for the controversy on the hydrino is that the hypothesis of the hydrino is being offered as an explanation for why there is excess energy in the process. Frankly, if you genuinely think "it has nothing to do with this article", you should not be editting this article in any manner. Both are talking of water in the form of hydrogen plasmas as a potential for fuel. Sorry to break it to you, but no one is actually talking of using water in it's normal state as a fuel. That indeed would be foolish. What they are all talking about is the potential for water in a plasma state that does indeed "burn" and is not simply electrolysis in reverse.

Cecilman (talk) 03:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent Discussion

I have created a new heading to re-emphasize the following point: You must use WP:RS/WP:CITE to provide evidence, and burden of proof is on those who assert WP:FRINGE. I would also like to remind Cecilman that though he is new, the editors here are assuming good faith and they should not be attacked for their diligent efforts in keeping this article within Wikipedia guidelines. Let's redirect this discussion with a civil tone. Thank you for all the hard work on this article. Fletch81 (talk) 23:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)