Talk:New York (state)

Early questions

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Wondering how to edit this State Entry?
The WikiProject U.S. States standards might help.

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What do people think about using a similar format to the one being used for countries to the 50 states? Danny

Should probably be discussed at WikiProject U.S. States. --Brion

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Should I mention the New Jersey Basketball and Hockey teams as New York teams, or should I not? WhisperToMe 07:41, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This timeline basically refers to events in New York City. I suggest moving it there. RickK 04:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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The leading item in each list in this article is in a smaller font from the other items. Whoever set this up might want to fix this.

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Put an end to the strange, small font problem. Whoever was trying to do something with this font change can try again. Think it's time to put the colleges on their own page??? I do.

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Since there was no objection to the suggestion to place colleges and universities into their own page, it is being done so that the New York page has more room for other material.

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Is it really accurate to call the United Nations an extra-territorial enclave? Does this not imply the United States is not sovereign over this territory? Is this truly the case?

That is truly the case. The UN has its own flag, stamps, and diplomatic immunity for accredited representatives.

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Propose rename of this article to "New York State"

I propose renaming this article to "New York State", because:

• The name New York is ambiguous, and both the city and the state are important. New York State is the most natural unambiguous title for this article.
• Lots of the links to this article ought to be linked to the New York City. Moving this article to "New York State" would help with the task of going through these links, because if all the links need to be changed to "New York City" or "New York State", it's clear which links have and haven't yet been fixed.
• Calling this article "New York State" would make it clearer to readers arriving at this article that it is about the state only, and not the city.

The title "New York State" would not be in strict compliance with the naming convention for US States - I think the strong likelihood of confusion with the city justifies deviating from the convention in this case.

The page "New York" itself could either be made a disambiguation page (the existing disambiguation page at New York (disambiguation) could be moved there), redirected to the city, or redirected to the state. I would suggest the city, as this appears to be where most new links belong, but I have no strong view.

Any comments? Enchanter 23:02, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

There already is a dis-ambiguation page at New York (disambiguation). 66.32.240.88 23:15, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks - I was aware of that, but should have made myself clearer! I've edited my above comment to clarify. Enchanter 23:26, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone have anything to sa about Enchanter's proposed page move?? No comment was made for 6 straight days. 66.245.69.118 22:41, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the page should be moved. The most common name for the state is New York; that is also its official name; it is abundantly clear in the first paragraph of the article that it is not about New York City or any other New York. A link to the alternate uses page is sufficient. Ðåñηÿßôý | Talk 22:53, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

For my part, I didn't comment because I was reluctant to get into it after all the ruckus we had about the name of the New York City article.  :) There are so many existing links to New York that changing the name would be a major hassle. Also, people who want to write about, say, Buffalo, sometimes write "[[Buffalo, New York]]" (my preference) but sometimes write "[[Buffalo, New York|Buffalo]], [[New York]]". Therefore, if the page were moved, people who didn't know it was at "New York State" and who just relied on the naming convention would be perpetually creating links to a disambiguation page. I was going to suggest that, if you think there's a danger of confusion with the city, it would be reasonable to make the distinction up front, but then I checked the article and saw that that's already been done. I favor the current setup. JamesMLane 23:01, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you that having a disambiguation page at New York could be problematic, as there would be a lot of links to fix. One alternative would be to have New York redirecting to New York State, which wouldn't break any existing links and would address your concerns about creating links to a disambiguation page. It would also help with fixing the links, because if someone links directly to New York State, it saves anyone from having to check whether they really meant the city. Enchanter 10:24, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

No. No no no no no no no no no no no. RickK 23:25, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. Enchanter 10:24, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

A single "No" will suffice for me. I still favor the current setup. JamesMLane 04:46, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely not! New York State is not the name. If something happened in New York City and somebody writes that it happened in New York, then that is still correct. If more precision is needed, then add City where appropriate. --mav 20:25, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Infobox

Glossing Kings Co. as Brooklyn and Richmond Co. as Staten Island, fine. Even clarifying that New York Co. is Manhattan is useful, although now that MoMA's back a lot of the stuff people associate with New York City is in Manhattan. Is it necessary to say that Bronx Co. is the Bronx and Queens Co. is Queens? I'm willing to acknowledge my idea of what's obvious may be skewed because I live in New York. ♥ «Charles A. L.» 14:25, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Religion

" unusually diverse composition of religious groups " is a bit misleading, along with the given stats. Roman Catholics form a huge plurality. The next group, Protestants, is made of many denominations and it is disingenuous to lump them together. Nelson Ricardo 00:58, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)

With respect to lumping all Protestants together, the data is in a standard identical format for every state, so I can't do anything about that. With respect to the degree of diversity, suggest you look up the data for some other states on Wikipedia to compare. If you still think New York is monolithic, then get back to me and we'll work something out. - JN

Title of article

This subject was addressed a few months ago. As I read that discussion, Enchanter favored renaming the page to "New York State", but everyone who commented on his proposal (Ðåñηÿßôý, RickK, mav, and myself) disagreed with it. Therefore, I've reversed the recent move to the similar "New York (U.S. state)". Given that this subject has already been considered, I suggest that anyone favoring a change should bring it up here for discussion first. (A minor matter: I think changing the dab note at the top to specify that this article is about the state is a good idea, instead of just using the "other uses" template, but we might as well tell the reader that the link is to a dab page, instead of piping it to read "this page".) JamesMLane 21:30, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

PROPOSED MOVE

I propose we move the page to conform to Georgia (U.S. state) and prevent an unfamiliar person, perhaps a non-North American, to assume that New York State is shorthand for "New York State University" like Michigan State, Ohio State, and to make the title completely unambiguous. EdwinHJ | Talk 01:37, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Let's not. There's no such school. The Georgia example is to prevent confusion with the country. Nelson Ricardo 02:00, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

I am aware that Georgia has to do with the country, this was simply an additional reason why I believe it should be moved. 17:45, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Most definitely NOT. This doesn't compare to Georgia at all. Cburnett 03:30, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I oppose the move. To address possible confusion with the nonexistent school, I've made New York State a redirect to New York. Thus, anyone who searches for "New York State" will be brought to this article. JamesMLane 03:34, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oppose. New York is the name of the state. --BaronLarf 05:28, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oppose. Paranthetical titles should not be used unless it is really necessary.--Pharos 06:51, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Oppose. All 49 US states other than Georgia are at simply [[statename]], some with redirects from [[statename state]]. Niteowlneils 01:25, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps people have forgotten that New York is also the name of the city, and will be the first of the two uses to come to mind from an international audience (remember this idea about being U.S.-centric and systemic bias?). While I know there is a state of New York, if someone talks to be about "something that happened in New York", chances are they're talking about somewhere within the five boroughs. Support moving the dab to New York and this to New York (U.S. state) or similar. Chris 02:08, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Support - most people (based on personal experience) outside of US think of New York as being the city. Within USA, "I'm going to New York" almost always refers to the city, not the state. Most people typing "new york" in the search box are likely to be looking for NYC as well. I am very strongly for the move. --Yurik 22:11, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Support. From the common sense prospectives New York is a city. This is how Mew York is most commonly used. For that reason, when talking about the state, people use "upstate New York".

As it mentioned, Georgia is one exception to the rule [[statename]]. New York should be the other one. The first principle of encyclopedia is "the most commonly used meaning - first". The other principles are secondary. 01:44, 18 Sep 2005 (PT) ==External links== Okay, there is now an edit war going on over two genealogy links. Here's a brief history of what occurred. #Anonymous user 66.6.80.48 [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=10970891&oldid=10968532 adds two genealogy links] #[[User:BaronLarf|BaronLarf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=10970891 clean up links page, removing broken links, links that don't belong here, and the genealogy links] #Anonymous user 68.203.227.54 [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=10972411 puts the two genealogy links back] #[[User:Cribbswh|Cribbswh]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=11008293 removes the two genealogy links again] #[[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=11008614 reverts Cribbswh's changes, putting the two genealogy links back] #[[User:Cribbswh|Cribbswh]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=11010854 adds an entire Genealogy subheading, putting two more genealogy links along with the ones he earlier removed], [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=11010863 changes their order] #[[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=11018130 reverts Cribbswh's additions stating that genealogy links aren't relevant, leaving just the two original genealogy links put in by 68.203.227.54] #[[User:BaronLarf|BaronLarf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=11024347 removes the last two genealogy links, agreeing wiht JamesMLane's statement] #[[User:Cribbswh|Cribbswh]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=New_York&diff=next&oldid=11024553 puts back the two genealogy links that he had removed back in step 4] Could we get some sort of consensus on genealogy links on state pages? This edit war is getting rather absurd. --[[User:BaronLarf|BaronLarf]] 14:44, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC) :I'm not understanding why the subject of Genealogy is not as relevent as Economy, History, Population, etc. Genealogy is a research-based study. It is extremely relevent. My mistake was cleared up by Pavel when he explained to me that I was adding the links in too many articles. He began removing the links since he defined them as spam, based upon the number of places they were added. I began to help him, since I thought he was right. Hence, you will see ME removing my own additions. Then, as I began to understand the Wiki guidelines, I began to add the links selectively, ONLY in relevent articles. I realize that not everyone here considers genealogy relevent but there are more people on the web who would think otherwise. There should be a 'Genealogy' subtopic on EVERY state page with quality resource links. [[User:Cribbswh|Cribbswh]] 15:36, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::I agree with you that genealogy is a valid field of study. Information on genealogical research should be included in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not, however, [[WP:WIN#Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files|a repository of links]]. If you wanted to create articles describing methods of genealogical research for each particular state, I would support that. But merely adding links to two genealogical resources for every state in the union when no discussion of genealogy occurs in the page is not, in my opinion, a positive contribution to wikipedia.--[[User:BaronLarf|BaronLarf]] 15:56, Mar 11, 2005 (UTC) I removed dozens of links added by [[Cribbswh]] because I considered this technically spam. I didn't investigate their relevancy per article. They may or may not be relevant for [[Genealogy]] etc. which I know nothing about - I acted only as cleaner. [[User:Pavel Vozenilek|Pavel Vozenilek]] 20:41, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC) ::I agree that Wikipedia is not a repository of links. However, the purpose for the external links section should be to provide the researcher valid and quality resources to further their study. The links should not have to be to further discussion but to actual research resources and tools that would give the researcher additional information. Each state link that I added was a quality site which provided rich, free data to help the researcher. There is no intent to spam the 'pedia but my ulterior motive is, however, to include Genealogy as an important aspect in state studies. New York genealogy is different from Louisiana genealogy, for example. [[User:Cribbswh|Cribbswh]] 21:23, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC) :::The genealogy links may well "provide the researcher valid and quality resources to further their study" of their family or someone else's, but not the study of the subject of this article, which is the state of New York. If, among the genealogy sites, there are some that are stronger on New York (or, for example, on the Northeast in general), that fact could appropriately be noted in a discussion of the different online resources in the [[Genealogy]] article. [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] 21:31, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC) == VfD consensus == The article at [[New York (U.S. state)]] has been redirected here ([[New York]]), persuant to the discussion at [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/New York (U.S. state)]]. Have a nice day. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]] | [[User talk:TenOfAllTrades|Talk]] 01:06, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC) == Lakeville, NY == I can't find an article for Lakeville, New York. Other articles are linking to it, but the article doesn't seem to exist or appear on any of the NY state city/town/village list articles. [[User:Siliconwafer|Siliconwafer]] 17:39, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC) *We don't quite have everything yet, you know. If you know something about Lakeville or are interested enough to research it, feel free to start [[Lakeville, New York]].--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] 23:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC) ==Paragraph in infobox== In the body of the article, under the "Geography" heading, is a paragraph that begins, "The megalopolis, however, is not the only aspect of New York State." In the edit window, this paragraph appears in its proper place, but it also appeared in the middle of the infobox. How did this come about? Was there a reason for it? I've removed it, and nothing frightful seems to have happened, but I'm a little nervous because I don't really understand the HTML involved. (I don't know why the text didn't display twice.) [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] 22:53, 10 May 2005 (UTC) == The Mustard Line == I was thinking of adding something "fun" about "upstate" being a matter of contention and the "mustard line." To me, upstate begins north of the "mustard line." That is, north of the mustard line, your (fast food) hamburgers show up with mustard automatically on them, south of the line, they generally don't. I guess this would put the mustard line in the Orange-Greene-Sullivan area east to... Dutchess-Columbia?? -[[User:HiFiGuy|HiFiGuy]] | [[User talk:HiFiGuy|Talk]] 21:20, 3 Jul 2005 (UTC) (Suffern, NY) :"Upstate" means anything north of the Bronx. [[User:JamesMLane|JamesMLane]] 5 July 2005 01:19 (UTC) (Manhattan, NY, though you probably guessed that from my comment!) :I had a burger in Fishkill the other day and it came with mustard; perhaps Dutchess-Putnam is the cutoff. Upstate north of the Bronx? I submit to you that we in the "northern 'burbs" have more in common with NYC than 'upstate' upstate! Plus that MTA tax! As a direction, sure, we're upstate, but as a place, we ain't quite there! -[[User:HiFiGuy|HiFiGuy]] | [[User talk:HiFiGuy|Talk]] 20 July 2005, 17:15 (UTC). == New York State or New York state == The state constitution of the State of New York, capitalizes "State" and the state is variously called "State of New York" and "New York State". I note also Alaska's state constitution and its seal refer to the "State of Alaska". Is any further argument needed? NYC's official name is "City of New York". "City" is part of the name, and being a proper noun, gets capitalized even when called "New York City". NYC's official name is not "New York" --[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 23:36, 2005 July 18 (UTC) *Jim is quite right on this. "New York city" is like "united states of America", it's just totally, unambiguously wrong.--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] 23:54, 18 July 2005 (UTC) == Missing spaces in first paragraph == There are some mysteriously missing spaces in the first paragraph, although the spaces are indeed there in the page source. I checked with both Firefox and IE. Here's what the paragraph looks like to me: "New Yorkis a statein the northeastern United Stateswhose U.S. postal abbreviation is NY. It is sometimes called New York Statewhen there is need to distinguish it from New York City." I tried adding more spaces, but this didn't fix the problem. Is this happening to anybody else, and does anybody know why? [[User:66.140.206.61|66.140.206.61]] 19:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC) I should add that the missing spaces only occur after bold words or links [[User:66.140.206.61|66.140.206.61]] 19:41, 29 July 2005 (UTC) == Seeking New Yorkers with geographical knowledge == See [[Talk:Lagrange]]. --[[User:Smack|Smack]] ([[User talk:Smack|talk]]) 04:43, 1 August 2005 (UTC) == Upstate new york == Hi all, I added a line about how Syracuse is considered Central New York to the article, in the section on "Upstate", and someone deleted it. I'm from near Syracuse, and people there always tend to be annoyed when people call it 'upstate'...I just think it's a good example of just HOW differently upstate can be interpreted, and that this is a valuable piece of information for the article--after all, for a lot of New Yorkers, "Central" New York is a fundamental geographic distinction that is key to the state. Could whoever deleted the line, or disagrees/agrees, please comment? Cheers Michael :First of all, I didn't do it, so I'm only speculating, but the inculsion of Albany in "Central New York" is pretty far-fetched. [[User:Pollinator|Pollinator]] 18:36, August 7, 2005 (UTC) ==First paragraph== :'''''New York''' is a [[U.S. state|state]] in the northeastern [[United States]] whose U.S. postal abbreviation is '''NY'''. It is sometimes called '''New York State''' when there is need to distinguish it from [[New York City]]. The areas of New York State north of [[Westchester County, New York|Westchester County]] are collectively referred to as [[Upstate New York]], though residents of New York City consider Westchester County to be "upstate" as well.'' Can we rework the first paragraph? I had some suggestions: :'''''New York''' is a [[U.S. state|state]] in the northeastern [[United States]] (postal abbreviation '''NY'''). It is sometimes called '''New York State''', typically to distinguish it from [[New York City]], the state's largest metropolitan center. The areas of the state of New York north of [[Westchester County, New York|Westchester County]] are collectively referred to as [[Upstate New York]], though some residents of New York City consider Westchester County to be Upstate as well.'' Did "upstate" have to be in quotes? I think only ''some'' residents of NYC think Westchester's Upstate...Indeed, maybe we could remove "residents of New York City", since perhaps people outside NYC have the same interpretation? Finally, I think it's to put the postal abbeviation in parantheses for conciseness--or at least do something to make it take up slightly less space. Do we have to say "US" postal abbreviation? Thanks! --[[User:Dpr|Dpr]] 04:58, 14 September 2005 (UTC)