Talk:Ejaculation

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Health

It would be really great to see information related to male health and ejeculation in this article. Im pretty surprised there is nothing here about it. A good place to start would be books by Mantak Chia such as The Multi_Orgasmic man.

The video

I see from the discussion that "Wednesday Island" only has to sit back and reject arguments against the videos as inadequate, and then add more of the same videos to the article in order to incite more arguments that he can simply nay-say. Such trolling should not be allowed in a serious discussion forum. Also, Wikipedia is not a porn site for you to vandalize at your leisure based loosely on the anti-censorship rule. Itemsdaily (talk) 04:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The video add nothing to the article, would you add a video two people actively engaged in intercourse for the intercourse article? Yami (talk) 21:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Why, do you have one? If it's licensed correctly, please upload it! The Wednesday Island (talk) 22:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

the video does not belong and your tone is not appreciated Yami (talk) 00:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems I added my previous comment too far up. "The video does not belong" is a pretty bold statement given the widely differing perspectives. The tone of the previous comment is not appreciated by you. I agree completely with it. I also would have a video of two people actively engaged in sexual intercourse - it is much more informative than a simple textual description. BananaFiend (talk) 14:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

You will have to come up with a better argument than merely stating your opinion. For what it's worth, this argument comes up every few months. The Wednesday Island (talk) 01:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, the argument does come up often. I think it is because people are culturally conditioned to think that anything explicit, and sexually related is inherently objectionable. In this case, this is an encylopedia, the article is about a science related topic, the video is directly related to that topic, the video does not show anything beyond the topic. If you were to look at it from a scientific perspective, instead of assuming the role of voyeur (for instance) it seems very matter of fact and descriptive of the topic. Atom (talk) 13:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

there is already a image and thats good enough. A good 99% of the articles on Wikipedia do not have videos, why does this one need one? It's just taking up server space.

Also there is a policy on having images and such only when it can't be described fully by words and the picture already does that so the video isn't needed.Yami (talk) 05:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

We strive to have a lede image on all articles. As time goes by we try to add and replace images with better ones. Your comment regarding a policy about having images only when it can't be described is not correct. All of the articles on Wikipedia take up server space. There seems to be plenty of space left. Thanks for your opinion that the video is not needed. Atom (talk) 14:49, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The server thing is from a admin i talked to about this so it the 99% thing. There is a policy that states images should be used sparingly. A video shouldn't be used if there is already a picture that shows the exact same thingYami (talk) 20:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Please, show me where an admin said this. If they ever did say it, I think you were misunderstanding them. Also, please read WP:ADMIN and note that administrators do not have any special say in the running of this site. The Wednesday Island (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It was Useight and it was by e-mail via yahoo. If he feels the video is a little much then it is. Yami (talk) 06:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

As i read on the images and media for deletion page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Images_for_deletion. Images and media that are unencyclopedic should be removed. since there is already an image and because the video add nothing more to the article that the image hasn't already it should be deleted.Yami (talk) 20:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

You have failed to demonstrate that the video is unencyclopedic. The Wednesday Island (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

encyclopædias don't have videos of guys getting off. The image is enough to illustrate the subject of the article and a video is not needed. Yami (talk) 05:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, books don't have the ability to display, and illustrate video. I was in support of the original video, which was much more encyclopædic in my opinion. But the point is, Wikipedia is NOT censored. You might not find it appropriate, others would disagree, but I fail to see where this is grounds for removal. I do concede the video is oddly placed, so much so that it seems...added on, and serving no purpose, it should be moved to a more appropriate area. Neuro√Logic 06:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to censor the article but there is no need for the video if a image already exists of the very same topic the video covers. The video is overkill and how much does this add educationally to the article? it's a video of a guy who put himself getting off on a web encyclopedia. There's already an image so a video of the exact same thing is not needed. Would you put two of the same image on a article? of 15 pictures of Britney spears at the same age with the same hair style? I doubt the answer is yes. Yami (talk) 23:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that the points you make are valid for discussion. Does the video offer more than the image? Are they distinct, or, are they "the same hairstyle?" Do they offer different information or perspective? In my view, one is an image, and so immediately offers a visual idea of what the article covers. Ideally one can, at a glance, look at a lede image and know pretty much what the article says, at least at a high level. The video, on the other hand, does not do that at a glance. It does offer a "real-time" idea, rather than a static idea. People who are not interested in it need not click on it. People who do click on it get a clearer idea about the topic. Additional information that is not apparent in the lede image is available. As such, it is unique and offers value to ther article. At least, that is my opinion. Atom (talk) 23:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Second point: If you look at the articles breast or penis or a variety of other articles, you will see many images of the same topic, many of them quite similar but offering different perspective or information on the topic. This article only has one image, and one video. Atom (talk) 23:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, thank you Atom, for that clarification of the point of the video. Neuro√Logic 23:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

1. a static image is enough. if a person really wants a real time video they can google it. The article doesn't need a video.

2. many of the pictures on the breast article are miscellaneous namely the Gallery images. Many of those are not needed and don't provide for the article. The very first image more or less is not appropriate for the article. An illustrated pair of breast, or a medical type photograph front view would be more appropriate. Every image except the first and most of the images in the gallery are acceptable, but an image of a woman's breast at a angle with her shirt lifted up outside isn't something that should be there. Not to speculate but that most likely just some guy's girlfriend he got to show him the goods.

3. much like the breast an illustrated penis is more appropriate at the top instead of a black and white image of an uncircumcised penis. The second image could use a better version. its a little pixelated and it displays the same information that the first image and illustrated anatomy image does. the third image i see no problems with. Yami (talk) 03:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yami, I'm sure you know this discussion comes up almost on a weekly basis, we as editors I think really need to Put down the stick, and step slowly back from the horse carcass. Don't you? While I do concede your argument on the breast image, is unencyclopædic...If the basis for your point is "They can google it." well then Wikipedia as a whole serves no purpose, one of the fantastic things about Wikipedia, is when you google a specific subject, it's often one of the first on the list in Google. But I seriously think, we should take a second to look back, see how often this discussion has come up "Such and such content is unnecessary for <insert sexuality article here>, remove it!" and how often it has been shot down, and think: Why are we persisting on this topic? Neuro√Logic 04:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

A Video on a woman giving herself a breast exam would be educational and something I'd like to see it on the article on breast. A video man giving himself a testicle exam would be something would be educational and something I'd like to see it on the article on the penis and/or testicles.Images alone are not enough for those processes, But a video of a man ejaculating when there is a a image that shows it stage by stage is not needed.

Do i find the image a little objectable? yes, but it serves its purpose. I dislike seeing it every time I come to this article but I'm not going movie it. If i could find it i'd replace the image with something different if it could illustrate the process. The video however, even if it only plays when you want it to, is not needed it doesn't add an educational value to the article like a breast or testicle exam videos would on their respectable article.

Why overkill the process with both a stage by stage image and a video? If you want to add more educational value then add an image of a penis with Pre-cum, not some user's video of himself cumming for the entire world. Yami (talk) 05:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you that the video on the main page instead of a link or something is overkill, personally I think the original video link in the caption of the picture was better. Point being, I don't think the page will ever be devoid of a video, just because this is brought up every week. Neuro√Logic 06:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The article can easily be without a video by removing it. There is no video on the articles about the penis, breast, testicles,vagina, oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, pornography or any other sex related articles. Why does this article need a video anyway. 99% of the wikipedia article don't have videos. There isn't a video that shows a man pulling back his foreskin in the uncircumcised article.

If the only reason for having the video is because it was put up in the first place then that is not reason enough to keep it. The article isn't going to decay and die without a video. Having an image and a video is like i said over kill. What makes this article any more special that it deserves a video?

yeah its public domain, free of copy right but is it really article worthy. A video of a guy ejaculating a unbelievable amount might or would be more educational and worthy of the article then the current video. This video is maybe 5-10 second long of a slightly out of shaped user with a 4-5 inch penis covered with unsightly veins, with a long drop of ejaculate that is only visible with the poorly laid fabric or paper background.

Just because the image/video says educational demostration doesn't mean that it is educational Yami (talk) 17:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The original video is located, [1]. It as a link as part of the caption under the diagram, and as you can see: Is the same person. I saw this as MUCH more encyclopædic, considering it was with black background, and made to look educational. Perhaps it should be reinstated mainly as a link in the picture caption, as it was before? Neuro√Logic 19:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I dunno, this image is in a loop, playing over and over, I don't think it can be useful in that fashion. I'm open to having another video if it offers new information, or replacing the current video if there is a consensus that it is better than other one. Atom (talk) 02:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The video should just be removed. To many cooks spoil the broth. Web encyclopedia or not no encyclopedia has a video much less a image of the act of ejaculating. Since every article should have at least on image the image can stay but a video is like i said over kill.

How did you guys let the video be added in the first place? somewhere someone had to of added it. How is it controversial and in need of consensus to remove the video when no one has said anything about when it was added.

I'd think with Wikipedia having so many editors trying to keep articles on topic and pure of un encyclopedic material the video would have been sacked the first day.

also if the video wasn't controversial enough to keep out of the article then it shouldn't be just as if not more controversial to take out of the article. Yami (talk) 04:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Considering there is support for the video, and Yami believes it's overkill, the picture of the ejaculation sequence, can be replaced with the gif video, which the sequence images were derived from? That way we can satisfy both parties? =) Neuro√Logic 04:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

The video is in the article by consensus. It is better than a string of GIF images. There is still the issue of it repeating. I an for leaving the article as it is, and has been for a while. If moving the video into a different section is effective (as that was the consensus, and lasted for quite some time) then we could go back to that. If you want to add the other gif sequence, I don't see a problem with giving that a try. But, removing a well established video would be a mistake. It illustrates the topic very well. Atom (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking more along the lines of removing the video, and adding a link to the gif sequence in the caption, if memory serves, it was there for much longer than the current state. I believe doing that, would also satisfy everyone here, there is a video available, and it isn't redundant, and taking up space. I'm not trying to remove parts of the article, but find a solution that would satisfy everyone, and end this Repetitive, weekly debate. Neuro√Logic 20:58, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I would object. First, we should be adding more material to the article, not removing material. Second, the video has been her for a long time with consensus, the image that you suggest added doe snot have that history. Thirdly, many people, including myself are against linking to images. If the image is worthwhile, add it to the article, don't link to it.

If you want a solution, leave the article the way it is. Trying to satisfy the last editor that came along and complained is doomed to failure. The video has worked, no reason to change it. If you want to see if adding the gif image to the article (not a link) will fly, that might end up getting consensus. Atom (talk) 23:41, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Sigh I'm removing myself from the debate, it's a weekly thing, and as expected: No one will ever come to a resolution with it, since neither side will move an inch. I do feel the need to mention: Adding material to an article, doesn't make it better in every case. Removing non-encyclopaedic material, which that video falls under, being an 'amaturish' video of some guy in his house, with a sheet over a shelf to make a "Background". I'm for replacing it, but I wont discuss it any further, it's a pointless debate that will never see an end until both parties agree to actually give an inch. Neuro√Logic 00:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I appreciate your interest and concern. I invite you to join the Sexology and Sexuality project. The debate is not about two editors with different perspectives. I have monitored this article for several years (see diff from 2006, (this and 578 other sexology and sexuality articles). I'm trying to suggest that many people in the past ended up with a consensus that stood. And that changing things will upset that, and as those editors check into the article in the next year, randomly, some of them will complain about the image that they were okay with being removed. It may seem like just me right now, and then as other editors run into the change, you'd be trying to satisfy them. The editor who is trying to remove the material (HI Yami, I am not being critical here -- you are cool) is less experienced with this kind of thing. He has a good heart and the best of intentions. But, I am of the opinion that he wants to go through the articles with "objectionable" images trimming images, and sees that as a way to improve Wikipedia. (I know, he does have a sincere concern about the quality of the article.) I agree that more images does not necessarily make a good article. But, still, more images is better than less images. If we were trying to make the article a GA article, that would be different. I don't see this article getting to FA status soon.

Regarding your comments. I respect your view that the image seems amatuerish to you. I see your point, but then, I am looking at it from an encyclopedic view. This isn't a work of art, it is meant to impart useful information on the topic. I am of the opinion that generally, more pictures are often better. The more people see sexuality a normal light, they less they are likely to eroticize images.

The image you want to add, you want to put a link to -- that hides it. Also, it has the problem of being a looping image. And, although it offers something new and unique, you want to remove the other video, which is quite informative. I don't follow. Atom (talk)

I'm a graphic artist and I hold ethics to the highest i can. I'm trained to do what is necessary despite any personal feelings towards the subject. I'm straight and don't like looking at other

penises to much but if i got to draw on i got to draw one. I am not trying remove objectable images, only images that are not what i'd find in a book. A girls gone wild shot of two tits is not encyclopedic. That is why I seek the replacement of that image with a more medical tone image. Though i do enjoy the current lead image because they're a nice pair of tits, the image is not encyclopedic.

If we removed the video no one would care that it was even there. Also in terms of the Gif I can and have made a non loop version and should it come down to it I can easily upload that version. The ease of it was childs play for me. a little save target as and opening it up in windows gif maker and bam we have a new version.

But as the previous editor said this is a long and exhausting debate. How did you guy allow the video to be put up in the first place.

If you'd just allow the video to be removed then that could please all sides sooner or later because no one would complain about the video being removed if its not there. I really think this article is fine with just one image but if you want the video just because it adds content then i can draw a dick shooting cum and upload it. or we could use a non-free image of a Hentai manga of a guy doing the same. I mean the oral sex article has drawings so i'm sure it wouldn't hurt the article but a video is just overkill.

One real image and one drawing would be more then enough and how much content can you add to this process without combining it or overlapping with the sperm article.

Its so cut and dry. Fluid that makes babies shot out of you not much more can be said.

Keep the image, maybe link it to a non-loop gif and remopve the video its so simple. Why does this have to be so controversial. I mean you make it sound like it was so easy to add the video. Why was no one there to block it from the article. but there is people here to protect it in the article? Yami (talk) 04:54, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

The only thing stopping me from uploading the non loop gif is i am confused as hell as to how to go about uploading it and putting a license on it. Should i upload it to wikipedia or wikipedia commons. I have a fair idea but everytime i upload a image and it's not used in a article it gets deleted. I think if its uploaded to wikicommons it stays no matter if its used.Yami (talk) 05:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to answer all of the points you talked about Yami, but this isn't the appropriate place. Maybe we can talk about some of that on your or my talk page, but the way you talk about sexuality (for instance classifying a picture of the lede on the breast article as a girls gone wild photo, or your aversion to drawing penis, etc.) But, stricking to this, I am not sure how to fix the non-looping. You could edit it, and add it as a new image to the commons site rather than changing the existing image. You could try to contact the original contributor, and see if they would add a non looping version.

The existing video was added some time ago, and it was allowed because at the time it was viewed that it contributed useful information to the article. I still feel that this is the case. It offers a real-time view of the topic. In a few seconds, someone unfamiliar with the topic can immediately have a pretty full understanding of the process.

You said: "One real image and one drawing would be more then enough and how much content can you add to this process without combining it or overlapping with the sperm article. Its so cut and dry. Fluid that makes babies shot out of you not much more can be said."

It sounds like you are offended by the image of semen in the article. I have respect for you and your view, but I have to say that you seem to express an aversion to something completely normal and natural. Perhaps, like some, you are taking a medical or human physiology or human sexuality image and sexualizing or eroticising it. It is not from a pornographic movie, it is en encylopedic image of a medical topic. Trying to remove this, and other images in other articles because you choose to view them from a sexual, erotic or pornographic perspective when they are not is not a problem with the image or the article. If you find it offensive, or if it squicks you, again that is not a problem with the article or image. If someone downloads a vido cut from a pornographic movie of a person ejaculating onto someone face and tries to add it to the ejaculation article -- that is a reason to object and remove it from the article. Although it is possible such an image would be appropriate for the bukkake article, it would not belong here. Objecting that a video of a man ejaculating, and that the image includes semen, on the ejaculation article, doesn't seem reasonable.

Anyway, if you can figure out how to unloop the image you like, let's add it to the article. Atom (talk) 15:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

1. I have the edit of that gif but it won't do no good if it can't be used in the article right away because wikipedia deletes articles not in use.

Well, add it to the article. If you don;t want to do that, add it to the talk page so that we can discuss if we sould put it in, whatever works for you. Atom (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

2. its public domain so i can use and do with it as i please just about.

I mean;t that you could ask the originator because they could probably reformat it quickly. Yes, as it is public domain, you can reformat it yourself. You had said you were having a problem and did not know where to save the image. Atom (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

3. Can't add it because either you or someone else would want consensus so it'd take weeks to get it up. Also you keep complaining that we shouldn't link it in the caption which i would be a little more in favor of then the current video, but we already have an image. The video adds nothing more then the image already does. the gif would more or less be an extension of the image itself so its the lesser of two evils and don't take that out of context.

Why would you want to link it? We almost never link image son Wikipedia. Put it in there unlinked, or add it to the talk page if you want to gain consensus for an add. Why not just put a new section here, show it, talk about how you want to put it in the article, and then after getting a few peoples feedback, try it out in the article. If you discuss first, and then act, people usually don't have issues. Atom (talk) 22

44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

4. I do not have a problem with seeing semen, its just the article already has a image that illustrates the point enough. You don't need 15 pictures of kenny on the southpark article or his to illustrate he wares a orange parka that hides most of his face. Overkill is the unencyclopedic side of the article.

Well, sorry I misunderstood you. "Its so cut and dry. Fluid that makes babies shot out of you not much more can be said." I thought you meant something else apparently. Well, this is the ejaculation article. Pretty much any image we add will likely show semen. I mean, unless we put in an image titled "just prior to ejaculation". Which, I think would be kind of lame. Atom (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

5. You keep on acting like you respect my opinions and view yet you talk down to me each time making accusations and speculatious comments.

I apologize. I do have that problem. My own wife sometimes says I am condescending when I am just making conversation. I guess one of the bad habits learned from ten years at University. Let me try to be clear. I think you are cool, and an interesting fellow. I respect your opinion. But, I have to say that when you remove 16 images from the gallery without having said anything about it first, kind of disrupting the discussion about the images, it is irritating and I may come off showing some of that right afterward. I don't have to agree with you to understand and respect your opinion. If I speculate, it is because we have a breakdown in communication and I don;t understand. Just like your previous comment about semen. You say one thing, and I make a statement based on what I thought you said. Atom (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

6. I am not eroticsising anything! I look at porn like a lot of people on a semi regular basis a minute here a hour there depending on mood and how much time i wish to spend. If there is an image that illustrates the point you don't need a video to do the same its overkill. It i wanted to censor or erotictize the article i would vote for both the image and video to be 86ed but That is not the case here though you seem to be trying to discredit me and make it seem so.

Well, I don't watch porn, mostly because I don't enjoy it, and it does not seem real, it seems manufactured. Reality is better than porn, I think. The issue is that people who do see alot of porn and hentai, without realizing it, begin to see that in the real world. This article is has a medical image of a penis, and ejaculation. It would be hard to show the ejaculation in a meaningful way without the penis. I mean, there is no one giving the person oral sex. He isn's masturbating. There is no sound track with moaning. It does not show his face or reactions. It is very clinical, about as non objectionable and non-pornographic as one could want. But, you object to it anyway. Your words, I quote "I really think this article is fine with just one image but if you want the video just because it adds content then i can draw a dick shooting cum and upload it. or we could use a non-free image of a Hentai manga of a guy doing the same."

I mean, why would we want a drawing, when we have a great video of the real thing? It makes me think (and I seem to misunderstand you alot, so please don't take offense whis is no accusation, just a view) that you are offended by the video, but if you drew a graphic, or if we used Hentai, that this would make it OK. It is like you find the image offensive, or pornographic in some way. Even the words you use, "i can draw a dick shooting cum" Well, that is sexualized. The article is not about pornography, Hentai, or dick's shooting cum, it is about human sexuality, and the physiological mechanism that allows semen to be delivered in all Mammals, and some form of it in most animals. I'm not trying to be condescending here. I am trying to relate that the images and thoughts that come to mind when you see that clinical image are very different from what I see and thing when I see it. Based on your perception, and that imagery, you want to remove the image, and all images but one image, from the article because you don't want to offend anyone. Your motive is pure, you are, as you say, ethically driven. The problem is, that the images aren't porn, they are clinical, natural, normal, healthy and non-offensive. The problems lies in how you perceive the image, and how some other people pwrceive the image. The more people who see images like this in a normal, non eroticized and clinical setting, the more they change their conditioning formed from watching porn and Hentai, and the more they see it as the natural and normal image that it is. It is just the human body, not some guy with a 'dick' inviting the reader ' shoot cum' in your vicinity. Atom (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

1 image is good, image and an gif extension of it is decent, two images are ok i guess sure why not, 1 image of a real person and 1 illustration would be something i'd like to see on the article but having a image and video is out of the question.

The more clinical and appropriate images, the better. As long as they offer additional information. Maybe a horse ejaculation, or other animals than humans and horses.

7. If i was so against seeing semen and if i was erotictizing it why would i offer to make a illustration of it or even make a edit of the gift you are against adding a link to in the caption. You're trying to govern this article and the other article I'm currently trying to help make more Encyclopedic. I use the term Girl gone wild because that is the tone of that picture on the breast article. Why would a encyclopedia have a image that looks like some guy takes of his Girl friend flashing him the goods? A encyclopedia would have a frontal view of the breast either illustrated or a medical photograph of a volunteer who contributed to medical science. Yami (talk) 20:53, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

My point, I hope that I express it well, is that many other people do not see the lede image on the breast article as a "Girl gone wild" image. That is your perception. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion. My point is, if you take a simple image of a girls breasts, for the breast article, and then you are offended and want to remove it because of your perspective that it is a "girls gone wild" video, that will cause conflict with other editors who do not see it that way. (who see it as a normal, healthy image of a womens breasts. Not as something erotic, wild, pornographic.

I am not trying to govern you. I do have a different opinion, and act to try and block you from harming the article and acting on your own against a standing consensus. Any of the other editors involve din the consens would have done the same -- it just happened to be me who is standing up for it at the moment. I am trying to protect the breast article and the ejaculation article because you are trying to remove legitimate images, often without discussion with other editors first. You perceive the image differently than other people, as a sexual image, and then try to remove it because you want to improve Wikipedia. Well, the breast article has been there awhile. These discussions have come up before with editors who have viewed any nudity as obscene. We have addresses that before, and had a consensus of editors make decisions on keeping the gallery in the breast article. Then you come in and remove the Gallery. That is perceived as acting against an existing consensus. Sure, asking for, and gaining a new consensus, different from the last one, is appropriate. But you have to work to gain consensus, not just walk in and do as you please. Why not try to move slowly on the issue, rather than making sudden changes? There is no race, no time limit, no urgent issue that must be dealt with. Discuss as long as it takes for a consensus to arise and THEN make changes. Atom (talk) 22:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

That is how i describe that image because it is unencyclopedic in image that would fit better would be the first image in the gallery or this image here

• File:Breast Image 289.jpg

I don't know how many times you want me to explain the simple concept that the image is not appropriate for the article. I am not offended i like the image but as a editor i can't allow it to be there in place of a more encyclopedic text book example of what should be there. You need to stop trying to make it seem like i'm out to get the article and that i'm some kind of conservative censorer. Now back to the subject at hand.

Trying not to govern me yet you control my action yeah that makes a lot of sense.I'm not trying to harm the article and i have only made one attempt to remove the video my self. When i stumbled upon it i thought it must have just got there so don't act like i've tried to remove it manually on a daily basis.

There you go again trying to make it seem like i see sexual stuff in these images and want them gone. I'm just cleaning up the article of Miscellaneous items that don't add to the article or are overloading it.

I don't view nudity as Obscene i just see that there should be a medical tone to a lead image and that you shouldn't over illustrate something.

If you want to prove your point then stop making accusation and start being a team player or hand the torch over to some new blood. What hurts the article is keeping info that isn't needed for to long. Slow and steady is not always the answer. Yami (talk) 23:51, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

What point are you talking about? We discussed this on your talk page already. I don't think you are out to get the article, or that you are consciously censoring the article. I think you want to remove the video, and your reason is because you don;t think it is appropriate. You expressed that the reason you don't think it is appropriate, is because, "Its so cut and dry. Fluid that makes babies shot out of you not much more can be said." then I find your reasoning to be insufficient for removing the video. Atom (talk) 19:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Why does the video have to be of a human why not use some other animal? That should make it less objectional 118.90.39.169 (talk) 06:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't care if the video is in there or not, I just want to know how the heck he does it without any touching??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.73.116.147 (talk) 18:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey on the Video

I suggest the video to be removed from the article.

I am starting this survey on behalf of myself and other who wish to discuss opinions on the video and why or why not it should or shouldn't be removed.

Please clearly state your position on removal of the video with *'''Support''' to remove itor *'''Oppose''' to keep it, then sign your comment with ~~~~.

because polling is no substitute for talking about it, please explain your reasons. Comment period to end September 4 2008.

• Support

1. there is a image that illustrates the same point. Having both an image and video of the same thing is unnecessary.

2. The video does not add educational value to the article.

3. 99% of all other articles don't have videos so this article should not be any special condition.Yami (talk) 06:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment: An argument that other articles don't have videos, so this article should not have a video seems specious to me. Especially considering that this is an online encylopedia. I see this as nothing more than a veiled attempt at censoring the video. Atom (talk) 12:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose The video offers additional information that the lede image can not offer. What could be better than a real time view in order to understand the topic? As this is not an article on a static topic, like a brick, the real time process offered by the video is very useful information. Someone who had not been familiar with the topic has a fairly good understanding after viewing the video. Also, the viewer needs to click on the video to view it, it is not forced upon them. Atom (talk) 12:16, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose Ejaculation is process, not a static object or event. If we had videos for other subjects, I don't doubt we'd use them in those articles.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 14:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose The video adds informative, educational content that is not easily communicated via text or static image. It surely fits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Images#Pertinence_and_encyclopedicity. Many articles do not have videos, agreed - but that is not a policy decision, and it is a shame that there hasn't been a mnore concerted effort to include videos. As an online encyclopedia capable of multiple forms of media it is certainly valid to include videos where appropriate. Given that viewing is optional, any attempt to remove it seems like no more than censorship. --Cooper-42 (talk) 14:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support for the same reason Yami stated above. A flow diagram would be more useful in illustrating a physiological process than a video. There is no moral stand to this decision.--Animeronin (talk) 18:17, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support The image and the video are basically the same thing, making the entries both redundant and unnecessary. The only thing the video is doing right now is cluttering the article. The reader knows that ejaculation is a process because it is already depicted in the frames of the image, and I fail to see what else the reader can learn on the topic by viewing the video. Artichoker[talk] 18:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support As for the other article, and its survey, again I'm not going to be posting directly on its talk page, but feel free to move my comment there or add a link there to it. I Support the removal of the video. This is not any attempt to censor the article, I'm fully aware of the no-censoring policy and I'm taking an amoral stand. Instead, my reasoning is this: 1) The video does not add any encyclopedic content that an image could not convey; 2) An overwhelming majority of articles do not have videos, I see no reason as to why this one needs to be an exception (yes, I'm aware it's a process, so are many of our other articles); and 3) Why don't all the other articles have videos? Because it would be a drain on server resources. There's no need to have videos taking up bandwith and server capacity, they're not exactly space savers. We don't have a video of a bowler tossing a strike at Strike (bowling) or a golfer putting the ball into the cup at Golf. Again, I am not censoring, but going for standardization, ease-of-use, and fast load times. Useight (talk) 18:56, 4 August 2008 (UTC) Preceding comment copied from here. Artichoker[talk] 19:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

1)Then perhaps the image should be removed, not the video; 2) the inclusion or exclusion of media from other articles is not necessarily an indication of whether or not we should include or exclude that media. 3) Or because no one has through to include video footage of such, and some articles like Pi include animate gifs which doubtlessly take up a bit of space themselves. Plus, the video doesn't seem load unless you click on it.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 01:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

1) Who's to say which one should go then? Sounds like you'd be up for either one. In that case, I say remove the video because it's more strain on the server; 2) You refute my argument by saying other articles aren't evidence, yet in 3) You use another article as your evidence. Also, is the video from a legitimate source, like a medical journal? Or did some Wikipedian record it themselves? If so, that could be original research or a conflict of interest if that individual is trying to keep the video up. Talk page stalkers, feel free to move this comment to the article's talk page. Useight (talk) 02:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC) Preceeding comment added from here. 216.49.181.128 (talk) 15:50, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

1) That's sort of the point of this whole thing, isn't it? The Strain on the servers is probably very, very small, unless you're going to offer up some sort of concert evidence of videos destroying the servers, I'm simply not inclined to believe you; YouTube should be exploded daily according to your theory, but they're not. 2) Other articles are not evidence in the sense that an argument cannot be made such as '99% of other articles don't include this media, why should this one', because that's not really an argument, and in point three you make an argument to the effect that we don't include such media because increases server loads in other articles, which my point was; that is false. I'm not, however, saying, Pi has an animated gif, thus this article should also have such media. As for claiming it's violating WP:OR, that's complete bullshit, that's like saying we can't upload screenshots of video games, or add our own user generated images like me uploading this image for the Double helix page, or a user taking a picture of a tree. Further more, I fail to see how all users opposing the removal of this image could possibly have a conflict in interest when it comes to this video, we're not the ones in it, nor did we have anything to do with the making of it. Maybe you should visit the article's talk page itself, rather then have other people move your comments form their talk pages to this article, so you can see it's not a single person or so opposed to this.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 16:19, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"Maybe you should vist the article's talk page itself". I've been reading the discussion here, I'm just not going to edit it with my account. Please comment only the content and not on me. I've seen the arguments from those who want to keep the video. They're pretty much all just attacking the points that are brought up by those who want to remove the video instead of bringing up points as to why it should be kept. The only point I see towards the keeping of the video is that it is more informative than an image. Also, please refrain from calling other people's arguments "bullshit", there's no need for ad hominem attacks. Also, I'm not sure about images or videos (my specialty is in blocking and deleting), but I think we also can't upload screenshots of video games because the games are copyrighted. But again, not my area. My point is the "opposers" are pretty much only refuting the "supporters" instead of bringing their own reasoning to the table. Also, of course I'm aware that YouTube isn't exploding, don't patronize me. I'm aware that the bandwidth and server space taken up by the video is minimal, however, it is still more than would be required without the video. Now, I would rather spend my volunteer time working on articles that I find interesting, so I'm going back to NFL-related articles. I'm not going to defend my opinion over and over again, when stating it once was sufficient. 216.49.181.128 (talk) 18:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Point of order: I actually agree with most of what you say, but calling someone's arguments bullshit is the very opposite of an ad hominem attack, because it's attacking a person's arguments and not their person. The Wednesday Island (talk) 13:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. I'll give you that. What the heck was I thinking? Struck. 76.8.208.7 (talk) 22:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose*Bandwidth and server space seems to have been brought up as a reason against the video. Unless someone who is maintaining the wikipedia servers decides that there is clearly an issue with the size of videos and amount of videos (beyond the stipulations of Wikipedia:Creation_and_usage_of_media_files#Limitations_and_Implementation_Issues) on wikipedia and makes an official statement in general or for this video specifically, than surely 'won't someone think of the servers' arguments are without weight? As for the golfing / bowling etc. arguments - I think they would be good examples of pages that could do with a short video clip.--Cooper-42 (talk) 16:52, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose If something is to go because of redundancy, then it should be the image. An image does not convey a full process, even if they are stop-motion. I'm adding some notes here about previous comments as several of the reasons given here seem to me to be flimsy - and it leads me to wonder if they are simply justifications (I am absolutely prepared to be wrong on that). In any case, here are why I think these reasons for removing are flimsy:

• The fact that "99%" of other articles constitute a "standard" (both terms based on conjecture) is irrelevant - this is not only not a democracy, but different standards apply to different pages. A golf ball? A bowler? What have these to do with ejaculation? They are sports, and if the pages included a strike occurring in bowling, I for one would be pleased, as it might help me improve my awful game.
• Bandwidth and server capacity? How many videos are you removing? This is not 100 megs
• Fast load times? the video does not load if you do not click on it. — BananaFiend 14:51, August 5, 2008

• Oppose I can't believe this is still going on. Keep. Exploding Boy (talk) 15:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose --70.121.198.67 (talk) 19:13, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose as per BananaFiend and because Wikipedia is not censored. Keep — OwenBlacker (Talk) 10:04, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support the removal - video is gratuitous. Seethaki (talk) 02:36, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose the removal of the video File:Ejaculation Educational Demonstration.ogv - I think that it is so funny that File:Ejaculation educational seq 4.png that is currently being used as the lead photo on the Ejaculation article and the looped animated gif from which it was taken, is from the youporncocks website. HAHAHAHA !!!! And to make it even more hilarious, the poster of the videos on youporncocks explained on the website blog how he had used a catheter and a hand pump to backfill his bladder with a mixture of egg whites and watered down yogurt to give this massive ejaculation ( Streaming / Spritzing as he calls it ) effect. It's not even a real ejaculation !!!! Also, one of the videos is watermark copyrighted with "Spritzing 2008". My name here is Infofreak for one simple reason. I am an avid researcher. Some of you need to do a little research before you act too. Infofreak (talk) 21:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Sorry, but I find the chief argument against this to be weak. It does add to the educational value in my opinion. I prefer the video still over that monstrous 4-panel image currently at the top of the page. And so what if 99% of other articles lack video? This is a number that will change as more such material becomes available, Wikipedia is even pushing for native Theora support for Mozilla Firefox's next release. Rich content is clearly desired on Wikipedia. Keep -- JSAtkinson 06:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose of course. Adding to JSAtkinson's comment: If 99% of other articles lack video, it's an argument to supply more videos to Wikipedia, not remove those few we have... SoWhy 20:22, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support The video is redundant and gratuitous. So is the picture, quite frankly. They only make it easier for brats to secretly try and look up "naughty" words on the internet in hopes they'll also find pics and vids to go along with itso they can tell all their friends at school about it ... They have no real educational value; they're just inappropriate. This is one reason (among many) why no one takes Wikipedia serious. Nor should they. At any rate, my vote is to get rid of the video.--Vico (talk) 23:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Note this is above user's very first post. Exploding Boy (talk) 23:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, and this is my second post! So what exactly is your point, Exploding Boy, aside from proving to everyone that you know how to count? Oh, I know! You're trying to say that because it was my first post that I'm a dolt, and my opinion doesn't matter. Get over yourself, sir. No one likes a troll.--Vico (talk) 06:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't hear him say that. If you are new to Wikipedia, then please review wp:civ. If not, then you would know that the primary interest in mentioning it is that you give the appearance of being a Sock Puppet. Atom (talk) 13:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point, Atom. Thank you. I got a little too defensive, I guess. At any rate, I still stand by my opinion to Support.--Vico (talk) 22:46, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

And what is your argument, apart from those brats whom you prefer to search elsewhere? (They will succeed somewhere else, certainly). Please explain. Glatisant (talk) 00:08, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The argument is that the video isn't necessary; there's already a picture. And also that the video is just plain wanton. The same could be said for the picture, too, but this is not a survey about the picture--it's a survey on the video. Anyway, this whole so-called censorship argument goes way beyond this mere ejaculation article, and so it's useless to argue it here in the first place. It is simply my opinion that while the video certainly is "relevant to the content", it is definitely not a crucial addition to the article, and so if people find it lewd, or redundant, or gross, or uneducational, etc., then there is absolutely no harm whatsoever in removing it. That's all.--Vico (talk) 04:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose That brats (...) secretly try and look up "naughty" words on the internet as Vico states, is no argument against those words or their illustrations. If these brats should look up those words in a dictionary, should the dictionary be censored? They seek education in their own bratty way, and find it. Probably you and I once did the same. I like the clinical, unemotional, neutral video. There's no steamy sex about, only a depiction of a body process. It really should stay. Glatisant (talk) 17:28, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose WP:NOTCENSORED, but I'm sure this has already been stressed several times with articles bearing "controversial" images or depictions of human genitalia. For anyone researching these matters, images (and even videos) can be valuable resources. Onto another note, I really don't understand claims about redundancy here. The article only features one image and one video. (not to mention, the video itself is extremely lightweight in its overall file size) It's not as if the page is boggled down with media content. I'm sure this could be viewed as a case where a single image is enough to illustrate the subject, but then, we would be having this same argument regardless of whether the video were there or not. As long as the page features depictions of genitalia, I doubt there will ever be a mature compromise about the article's content; which is really sad, because I hate to see Wikipedia editors trying to impose "moral" exceptions like this. So to sum up my feelings on the subject,I see nothing wrong with articles having rich, illustrative content; images, videos and other media files can say so much more than words. There is a point where it can become redundant, yes, but controversy or censorship should never have a bearing on consideration for inclusion. And that's really what this boils down to, whether some editors are willing to concede it or not. 74.242.104.56 (talk) 01:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments (on survey)

Do a Google Search for the words "spritzing" and "ejaculation" together in the search box and see for yourself. The top six results is this guy's videos. Infofreak (talk) 02:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Your comments are confusing. The survery is about the video, lower in the article, not the lede image. People reading this (me for example) will think you are talking about the topic being discussed (the video) which is *NOT* the topic you are speaking of. Atom (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, would you consider editing your comment to take out the postshot at editor Yami, as well as the plug for the porn site? And the description of this method you talk about would work better in another section discussing the image you are talking about, instead of the video. Just a friendly request. Atom (talk) 02:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarification for Atomaton and others. I OPPOSE THE REMOVAL of the video File:Ejaculation Educational Demonstration.ogv and I SUPPORT THE REMOVAL of File:Ejaculation educational seq 4.png

that is being used as the lead image of the article because it was created with still capture images from a video series obtained from a porn website where the poster admitted that it is not a real ejaculation. And by the way, the poster's main nick is "Krooga". Do a Google Search with the words "krooga" and "cumshot" together in the search box and click on the second result that says "Hi Krooga - just thought I'd let you know (if you didn't already) that Wikipedia has pics ... dude, did u know that a video of your cumshot is on wikepedia? ..." Infofreak (talk) 04:27, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me a lot of people are missing the point of this survey. Its not about censorship but encyclopedicness, also about not over illustrating things. also just because this has been going on a long time does not mean you should just keep it.Yami (talk) 22:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't the Encyclopedia Britannia have a video for their article on Breast? I don't think videos are that out of place in online encyclopedias.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 00:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well i wouldn't know if they do, but the fact isn't if a any video on an online encyclopedia is encyclopedic, but if having both a image and a video (that show the exact same thing) is encyclopedic. Also if the video on this article (how it is filmed, its tone and the original intent of the creator and/or poster) is encyclopedic.

At first glance you would think someone just put the video there to show the world "hey look no hands." i don't know what the creator or the editors who allowed the video to get here was thinking, but the video is here somehow and the question is if it should stay or not.

This isn't about censorship, this isn't about "OH MY GOD THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!" this is about keeping the articles encyclopedic. Yami (talk) 03:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I second Yami's opinion. Having both the video and image explaining the same thing/topic is bordering on redundancy. I say we eliminate one and retain the other. --Animeronin (talk) 12:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

My opininon is that the video is instructive and indicates the process of ejaculation in real time. It is in an encyclopedia, and therefore, encyclopedic, as that is the definition of the word. If one means medical or clinical then I agree looking more clinical would be beneficial. However, given a choice of having a less clinical image that displays the topic well versus having no video, I would choose having the less clinical video for the time being until a more clinical video emerges. Atom (talk) 12:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Demonstrations or instructions in real time does not equal encyclopedic. Also an Encyclopedia is a static yet non static source of info. A paper based Encyclopedia would have static info, but its following update/volume would be an example of it being non static.

Because this is a web encyclopedia the info can change fast and more efficiently then its paper based ancestor.

However just because its a web based encyclopedia and thus allows different forms of info to be added does not mean that they are educational or encyclopedic because they were added. The pronunciations of the words Ejaculate and/or Ejaculation would be an educational media to apply to the article, but a video showing what a image already shows is not a educational media.

There isn't a video showing a fish being cleaned on the fishing article. There isn't a video of someone casting a reel. There is no video of someone making fire with two sticks on the fire article. No video of how a tire is being made or rotated. no video of how a fan works by spinning a set of fan blades. There is no video of how cars are raced on Nascar, or how they do the pitstop.

Some of those things might be educational but half are not worth adding to their articles. Also many of them are "processes" which was one of your earlier arguments. Process or no process if it can be illustrated with a picture a video is just overkill.

All this video does is illustrate the same thing already illustrated by a image. Also if one or the other was to be removed the video would be the best choice since encyclopedias need images and the article is nicely illustrated with the current image.

I mean a video on doing a self breast exam might help that article but in no way does this video help this article except in causing edit warring, controversy and the endless squabbling between editors who accuses each other of this and that.

Removing it based on it being non encyclopedia would not be censorship like many of you editors on here have been falsely preaching. Removing it based on the fact it has a penis in it would be censorship but not for the reasons i and many before me have brought up.

Over illustrating a point is not encyclopedic. A Real encyclopedia might have one or two images for any given subject. You don't need 100 pictures of hieroglyphs after showing a chart of them. You only need one illustration to show what Anubis looked like and maybe a picture of a statue that was worshiped.

The Jesus article doesn't show 100 images of him. They show different depictions of him from different times but they don't over illustrate the points.

The Son Goku article only has three images of him. 1 of him and his child form, one using the sprite bomb and the last image of him as a super saiyan. They don't have 10 images of him in 4-6 different levels and variations of super saiyan forms. They have a cut and dry to the point illustration of what he looks like in one 3 forms (child, adult, super saiyan).

The point is there is no need to add useless or already illustrated info, and that info that was added that over illustrates should be removed.

Also to touch upon some of the arguments. Just because you have to click it to load it doesn't mean it doesn't cause server stress. Clicking it makes the server have to work. keeping it on the article makes the server have to keep it in its place. loading the page makes the server have to send you the info that "hey this is a video that you can play"

with out the video the article would load faster just because it wouldn't have to compile the data that this article has a video.

Also just because this argument/discussion has gone on for a long time does not mean the video should or shouldn't stay. Any editor who would oppose or support the removal or keeping the video based on that should not be counted. Unless the editor voicing their choice has a general good reason for doing so anything else should not be counted.

The removal of the video should be because its not educational and/or encyclopedic.

Keeping the video should be done if its educational and/or encyclopedic.

Not because "this is still going on? oppose keep" If a editor is not going vote for the better of the article and not just because they're tired of the argument or because they want it censored then they should not be counted. The same goes for the people who simply said oppose because of Useights original stance of the server thing. If they want to believe or not believe it causes server load and what not that is their own problem but voting oppose simply because a user or two believes that isn't the way to do things.

People can have their opinion but if they're going vote against others opinions and not for the reasons stated then they should not be counted as a true vote.

Notice what i did there. I over illustrated my points on purpose to illustrate the bigger point. Over illustration is boring, redundant and completely unneeded. Yami (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason I wrote, in disbelief and exasperation, that I can't believe this is still going on is because it has been going on for months now, if not years. That videos are lacking in some articles is not a good argument for removing them from others. In fact, the very fact that this encyclopedia is capable of supporting various types of media is a good argument for including them. All the better to illustrate concepts with. The claim that the article is over-illustrated is pure hyperbole. There are exactly two illustrations: one image, and one video. Both are useful. And in fact, the preference is for more rather than less illustration: you'll notice that every featured article contains at least a handful of images. Today's featured article, Parapsychology, contains six. Antarctic krill, a previous FA, contains twelve, including one animation. The fact is that some people just cannot bear any explicit depiction of anything related to sex and human genitalia; that's fair enough, but those people's feelings cannot be considered as a basis for removing useful, encyclopedic media from articles on Wikipedia. This is not pornographic, it's not gratuitous, and it's not excessive. It should stay, and this ridiculous argument, which is really just pandering to the relentless agitation of those who would like Wikipedia wiped "clean," needs to end once and for all. Exploding Boy (talk) 20:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no need to over illustrate, and if its gone on this long then that would indicate that the video is not helping the article. all it does is cause conflict. Many people have their own reasons for keeping or axing the video but the bottom line is that if it is really worth keeping then no one would be fighting over it staying but changing.

If the video was really that important 10 other different replacements would have came about by now, but so far to my knowledge no video has replaced this one.

Some articles do have lots and lots of images and/or media, but just because other articles have less images and/or media then others, does not mean that they should try to raise the number of images and/or media if it keeps illustrating the same point. There is no need for 15 images of ejaculation on this article, and more or less this article should go with the Sperm and Semen article. I don't see what can be said on this article that can't be fitted in the other article. Yami (talk) 07:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of a dilbert comic, where one guy says "I will oppose you to the end of the world!" (or something pretty similar).

"if it is really worth keeping then no one would be fighting over it staying but changing". Wow, I'm not sure how to respond to this one. How about this equally valid statement:

If it is really worth removing then no one would be fighting over it changing but staying. BananaFiend (talk) 07:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

• Yami defends an image created from media from a porn site that is not even a real ejaculation, and wants to remove a legal non-pornographic realtime video example of ejaculation created exclusively for Wikipedia ... go figure.

Anyway, Yami said "The removal of the video should be because its not educational and/or encyclopedic. Keeping the video should be done if its educational and/or encyclopedic". Ok, lets look at this. Click on this link from the talk page of a Deletion Request of the video File:Ejaculation Educational Demonstration.ogv from April 2007.[[2]] By Yami's own words, the video should stay on the article because this link proves that the video is educational and has been used by visitors to Wikipedia for educational purposes. Infofreak (talk) 13:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

True, it is not desirable to clutter articles with too many images of exactly the same thing. On the other hand, it is also not desirable to provide insufficient illustration. (You will notice, for example, that images are a requirement for Featured Article status. Similarly, ithe Perfect Article "includes informative, relevant images . . . that add to a reader's interest or understanding of the text, but not so many as to detract from it"). However, the claim that two different media relating to the same thing is "over-illustration" is just silly. Nobody is arguing that because other articles have more images, the number of images in every article should be raised. Articles should be thoroughly illustrated with relevant images. Certainly, as Yami says, "there is no need for 15 images of ejaculation on this article." But nobody has tried to add or proposed adding that many, and currently we have only one image, in addition to the one video. No reasonable claim can be made that this is excessive. As a point of reference, please see the following articles which have multiple illustrations of their subjects: Albert, Prince Consort (4, plus 3 additional); Bestiality (5); Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom (16, plus 4 additional); Testicle (6); Coho salmon (3); Semen (4).

As I stated above, the argument over the video is precisely linked to the desire of some editors to remove explicit imagery from Wikipedia. The problem is that certain people simply refuse to accept Wikipedia's no censorship policy. This is unacceptable. (Similar arguments are ongoing regarding images in a variety of human sexuality-related articles.)

As far as Yami's argument that this article should be merged with Sperm and Semen (not sure how, since they are two separate articles), feel free to propose merging if you feel that strongly about it. I don't think the proposal will be successful, however, and if it were that still would not solve the issue of the video, which would still be relevant and encyclopedic.

Let's be very clear on this point: one image and one video does not constitute over-illustration. Can we put that nonsense to rest and move on to any other objections to the video?

Finally, a request to Yami: please place your signature next to the last sentence of your post rather than on a separate line. It makes for a much less cluttered and much easier to read talk page. Thanks. Exploding Boy (talk) 17:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

BananaFiend that video is only named that. You can upload anything and call it educational, but it doesn't mean it is. You're comments seem to be more trollish then constructive converstation. You also seem to be more interested in trying to humiliate or belittle other editors.

I don't know where the image came from, and if the image is on a porn site but if you are that concerned about the image change it.

I mean if it being on a porn site or that it was created for that purpose annoys you or something, then why don't you change it out instead of trying to argue about me wanting to remove the video and not the porn site picture. Yami (talk) 18:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Exlopding Boy The fact of the matter is that there is no reason in having a image and then a video. Both illustrate the same point so that is over illustration. The cut and dry fact is that Ejaculation is when semen shoots out of the tip of a penis, nothing that can't be said by text or the image.There isn't to many ways to illustrate it any different then what the image already does.

Though this doesn't apply to normal images and i'm not sure about videos there is a ruling on non-free images where the should only be used if the text can't explain it well.

The image on here and the text seems to explain the process well enough without some guy's video of him getting off. I mean can you truly defend this guy's video based on a educational factor? I mean we don't know what he was thinking. He might have uploaded the video for education or he might have just uploaded it for a non educational purpose. If the video's intent wasn't educational, but as a form of vandalism or showing off then it shouldn't be included.

People are arguing for the video because ejaculation is a process but you can't see the whole process with just seeing the outside of the penis shooting semen. If the video could show the semen from start to finish I (from being formed to traveling and being released) then it would be educational. Showing a video of some guy ejaculating, when a image showed the exact same thing is not educational.Yami (talk) 18:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I've already explained why there is a reason to have both an image and a video. Here's another reason (also explained above, by some other editors): ejaculation is a process; a video illustrates this process much better than a series of still images. For example, see the article Horse gait, which has both still images and animated images of the various gaits. And I think I've explained well enough why this is clearly, indisputably not over-illustration. Let's move onto whatever other objections you have, please.

Your main objection seems to be that the subject might have enjoyed the orgasm that presumably accompanied his ejaculation in the video, and/or that he might have uploaded the video with the motive of getting his jollies by having it displayed publicly. These are not good reasons to exclude this clearly relevant and useful video from this article. We have users who have uploaded photographs of their genitalia, breasts and various bodily fluids as well; we don't question their motives, only whether the images/videos are useful. As to the claim that the creator may have intended to use the video for vandalism, that's entirely possible. However, we have ways of preventing that, and there's no evidence I've seen that indicates that the creator has used the video that way. Again, not a reason to exclude the video from use in this article.

You're right that the video doesn't show the entire process of ejaculation, only the externally visible portion. I believe there was an animation that did show the internal process; I don't know what's happened to it, but if we can find it or a similar one, it should be added to the article as well. Your claim that the video is not educational is, I think, utterly unfounded. It illustrates the process clearly in a way that neither the text nor the still image can possibly match. Exploding Boy (talk) 22:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

If the photo sequence has been manipulated in such a way as InfoFreak suggests, as not being a realistic ejaculation, it should be replaced by another illustration that is entirely realistic.

As for the question of over-illustration: first you search for 'ejaculation' because you probably are curious in some way. You could also search for 2008 Summer Olympics, Nematomorpha, or Cleopatra Jones, but no, ejaculation it is. Then you click on the video button. You know what may happen: you will see an ejaculation. If you don't want to see it, don't click. Very simple. Glatisant (talk) 18:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Sequence of Ejaculation

It should be noted that the "spurts" of an ejaculate are not homogenous: in the first 1/3 of ejaculate (2-3 spurts) most sperm and prostatic secretion are expelled, and the last 2/3 of the ejaculates contain very few sperm, and their motility, survival and protection of the genetic material (DNA) is not as good as in sperm ejaculated together with the zinc rich prostatic fluid. It is the seminal vesicular fluid in the last part of the ejaculate that causes the formation of a gel that is seen in ejaculates collected in laboratory containers for investigation. Seminal vesicular fluid is rich in fructose, but this is hardly a source of energy for sperm "in vivo" since sperm are not likely be in contact with seminal vesicular fluid: ejaculation in the vagina means that the first ejaculate frations are expelled onto the cervical mucus which usually hangs out from the cervical os. That means that the rapidly moving sperm expelled in prostatic fluid can transfer into the cervical mucus before contact with the seminal vesicular fluid.Androlog (talk) 12:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Original research? If not, then please cite your sources. And if possible, include the facts you've stated in the article, if it would benefit clarifying the "quality of semen" --Animeronin (talk) 17:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Original Research

I have removed the only citation-needed tag. I did this by removing un-cited factors affecting sperm count, and adding in citations for factors left in. I have also removed the original-research tag on the article. If there are any more reasons for the citation-needed tag, it can be added back in. BananaFiend (talk) 16:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

THIS PAGE CONTAINS A VIOLATION OF LAW! There are pornographic material available here which should be REMOVED or REPLACED

Please direct your legal concerns to the talk page of the legal advisor of wikipedia, at Talk:Mike Godwin, thanks.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Drawn images are OK because they explain a topic. This website IS AVAILABLE TO CHILDREN! Am I the only one to see the problem here? You need some kind of confirmation of mature age before showing this kind of content! If this isn't rectified it wont be long time until Wikipedia is either closed down or gets censorship on specific articles from DNS servers. Maybe even worse, a lawsuit or something worse that may shut Wikipedia down! You are ruining the beautiful and wonderful creation of Wikipedia by showing this inappropriate content! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.233.234.230 (talk) 15:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

No, sorry, that's not illegal. You should probably be screaming about illegal content on Penis, Vagina, and Semen if you're that convinced that having a video of ejaculation, on a page about ejaculation, is illegal.

Also, I hate to shatter your view of the Internet, but most porn sites (of which Wikipedia is not one) do not bother to verify the age of the viewer. Sure, there's a "click here if over 18/21" button, but clicking that button is no guarantee that the viewer is actually over 18. Are you suggesting that all Internet pornography is also illegal? 71.89.1.73 (talk) 06:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)