Talk:Joe Biden

7/11 Comments

Where's the section of the 7/11 racist comments he made about not being able to go to any 7/11 or Dunkin' Donuts in Delaware without a think Indian accent?

I agree, this definitely should be in there. We will be getting out the message on all Desi Forums about Biden's comments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Larry Renforth (talk • contribs) 03:36, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

The hatred words of Joe Biden have been spread on many Desi / Indian chat forums now, as stated above. I clicked on ratedesi.com, and sure enough, there is talk of Biden's comments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.235.221.33 (talk) 21:18, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's important that we make sure that these comments are verified before posting them. I suggest locking this article and not allowing such accusations into it without some hard evidence. Given that he is now a running mate for vice president this article will no doubt be subject to vandalism. -scarlocke —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.48.250.215 (talk) 03:13, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The original poster's link contains the C-SPAN footage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Munseym (talk • contribs) 05:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism Mention in 1988 Campaign Section

Recently, this text was added to the article:

This however was hardly Biden's only problem. It was also revealed that he had plagiarized an article when he was in law school. As the New York Times pointed out: "The faculty ruled that Mr. Biden would get an F in the course but would have the grade stricken when he retook it the next year. Mr. Biden eventually received a grade of 80 in the course, which, he joked today, prevented him from falling even further in his class rank. Mr. Biden, who graduated from the law school in 1968, was 76th in a class of 85. The file also included Mr. Biden's transcript from his days as an undergraduate at the University of Delaware. In his first three semesters, his grades were C's or D's, with three exceptions: two A's in physical education courses, a B in a course on Great English Writers and an F in R.O.T.C. The grades improved somewhat later but were never exceptional." When questioned by a New Hampshire resident about his grades in law school Biden claimed falsely to have graduated in the "top half" of his class.

I'm unsure if the amount of text spent on it and the placement of the information is appropriate, and wanted to get other opinions before making any substantial changes to it.-Polotet 04:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's undue weight and needs to be reduced. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:55, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Which I later did (at the time, before the veep naming), to follow up. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:09, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree that this is "undue weight." This is sourced, it is very specific. And it is certainly relevant if someone claimed to be at the top of their class. To remove it introduces bias. --Mr. Vernon (talk) 18:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you think of any other WP article that goes into such detail? A B in this, a D in that? No. It's a great example of WP:Undue weight. Overall for the four years, the NYT story says he was an unexceptional student, and we can and do use that. If we can get his class rank as an undergraduate, we can use that too (like we already do with his class rank in law school). But calling out specific grades for the first 3/8 of his undergraduate career is ridiculous. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, I'm not arguing the accuracy of the grades, but their relevance in this article. And note that he never claimed to be in the top half of his undergraduate class. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:35, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I see your point; however, the article as it is written now is not reflective of the source. The NY Times says his later grades - after his first three semesters - were "never exceptional"; not his entire set of grades. Removing the specific grade letters - I can understand WP:Undue weight as a reason for removing. However, I think it would be fair to at least note that Biden started off poorly, as a substitute for specific grades. This reflects the overall tone and information of the original source without being overly specific. Thoughts? --Mr. Vernon (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you could say he started poorly and remained unexceptional. Better still would be the class rank, if it is publicly known. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't have the class rank, and I'd want it to be cited by a primary source to remove the chance of a doctored transcript; in the meantime, may I make the edit as proposed? --Mr. Vernon (talk) 18:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, make the edit. But your "doctored transcript" suggestion is a bit paranoid. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:59, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Ordinarily I'd say yes, but remember the "Bush memo" from the last Presidential election? --Mr. Vernon (talk) 19:11, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Wastedtime states that Biden did not claim to be in the "top half of his undergraduate class". In fact, he stated he was the outstanding student in the political science department. In other words he indeed claimed to be number one in political science when he was anything but. The article as it stands seems "sanitized" to soft pedal this fact. If you review the sourced article you will see this is correct. The article also refers to the current law dean and Biden's professor as "downplaying" the plagiarism. Well, yes in 1988 they did downplay it. But they took it quite seriously when it happened. And his explanations were not deemed satisfactory at that time. Read the article again, he plagiarized "four pages" of an article. That's pretty serious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ducksbury (talk • contribs) 21:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that plagiarism is quite serious. I agree that the "downplaying" bit probably shouldn't be here – someone else put it in, and it sounds like the dean/professor backcovering for him years later. As for outstanding student in political science, Biden says in that NYT story "With regard to my being the outstanding student in the political science department, my name was put up for that award by David Ingersoll, who is still at the University of Delaware." I haven't seen anything else on this, but so far it seems like a minor exaggeration at worst. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

To the contrary, I think it comes across that way only if it's actually included - otherwise it seems like the charges stuck forever and Biden had no defense to them. Since plagiarism is such a serious charge (something that can get people law students kicked out and in court can result in jail time), our policy on biographies of living people requires including this.--chaser - t 00:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree that official findings regarding this, such as this December 1987 board action, definitely should be included. The 'downplaying' referred to verbal comments Delaware staff made in September 1987, when the controversy first started up. Those I didn't think deserved much attention. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

My bad. I misinterpreted what you said. Sorry.--chaser - t 02:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

The specific grades seem irrelevant, although given the repeated claims of academic excellence the overall sense of the text should be maintained. I also note that the phrase "Though Biden had correctly credited the original author in all speeches but one ... " is not supported by the references. It appears that in some speeches he may have referenced Kinnock as a general inspiration, but it was not in the context of this anecdote. Indeed since Biden specifically personalizes the anecdote (e.g. changing Kinnock's reference to his ancestors as Welsh coal-miners, to Biden's (fictional) Pennsylvania coal-miners) it is clear that it was not a simple omission of credit. This wording also tends to minimize the issue, when in fact there are other reports involving use of the words of RFK and Hubert Humphrey without attribution. MeanOnSunday (talk) 06:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Joseph Biden was caught up in a plagiarim scandal when Governor Dukakis took video of a Democratic debate and made a campaign hit piece showing that Biden quoted Neil Kinnock, then-leader of the British Labour Party, without attribution. A picture being worth a thousand words, the video outweighed multiple press accounts about Biden's pre- and post-debate use of the British quote while including attribution. Biden was effectively tarred as a plagiarist by Dukakis and was forced out of the race. The Delaware Supreme Court's Board on Professional Responsibility would later clear Biden of law school plagiarism charges brought up in relation to the Dukakis political hit piece.

I would keep the specific grades because specific, accurate information is difficult to find. And some people, including Senator Biden, have ways of eluding any and all direct questions regarding their qualifications. Senator Biden also has a pattern of plagiarizing when he is in pursuit of some prize; and possibly more instances of such actions could be found on investigation. And these things ought to be investigated in anyone who wants the highest office in the land and are therefore relevant.Consolidated.bits (talk) 21:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The specific grades only reflect the first three semesters of eight, and give undue weight to partial informtion. If we had his overall GPA or class rank for his full time there, then yes we could well include that. But starting off badly in college for the first year or two before getting one's act together is an honored American student tradition. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:51, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia-Russia war

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-assess-bidenaug24,0,935930.story Biden recently traveled to a war-worn Georgia amid the Russian invasion. Can someone add this info into the article? Thanks. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 09:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. You can! —  X  S  G  19:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

No, he can't. -- Atama^chat 20:26, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes. He can. ;) —  X  S  G  18:18, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Candidate tag as to whole article

As I noted in the edit summary, his status as a VP nominee means all the info in the article will be in play, as opponents and journalists dig into his background. Therefore, the tag is valid as to the whole article, despite some earlier edit comments. Also, please cite me to some WP that this tag is not appropriate to whole articles? I would argue its very existence, and use on scores of other articles, is evidence of a Wikipedia consensus that it is so appropriate. Audemus Defendere (talk) 04:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no WP rule on the election tag, just a common practice we have been using on the candidates' articles for the last year and a half. The tag goes on the campaign section in the main bio article, and on the entire campaign subarticle, but not on the entire main bio article. In this case, the Biden article is already cooling down, and will do so even more now with the Palin announcement. Biden's life is actually fairly well known, since he's run for president twice, and most enterprising veep-slot journalists and oppo researchers are booking flights to Anchorage right now. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:38, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

7/11 & Dunkin Donuts comments

Video: [1]. Is a rather well-known controversy of Biden; should be included. --141.219.230.232 (talk) 04:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

A discussion of this remark is included in the 2008 presidential campaign section. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's a transcript of what Joe Biden said: "In Delaware, the largest growth of population is Indian-Americans, moving from India. You cannot go to a 7/11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I’m not joking." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.0.249 (talk) 16:29, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. That quote is in the article. Right now. Has been all along. So what is this discussion about? Wasted Time R (talk) 23:01, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

"2008 Senate candidacy" and crystal ball

It seems to me that the whole section from "If he won both races" down comes under the heading of crystal ball. That there are two citations doesn't alter the fact that it is mere speculation. Scolaire (talk) 13:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

A description of what procedures take hold if Biden wins both races is definitely appropriate. The mentioning of possible seat replacements is maybe borderline. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly. Should we mention Joe Lieberman's 2000 VP campaign, because he was running for re-election in the Senate as well? Justice America/(5:15) 17:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I've edited the section accordingly. One more question: the article says that "if he won both races, he could resign from the Senate". If he remains on both ballots and wins both contests, does he have any other option, or should it say that he "would" or he "would have to" resign? Scolaire (talk) 09:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

He would have to resign, as the AP article states. I've reworded the section to make this and a couple of other points clearer. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks good :-) Scolaire (talk) 13:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

No. Could is correct. He could, instead, resign from the Vice Presidency and serve his term as senator. Doubt that's realistic, but it is within the realm of possibilities. The law does not require him to do take the one over the other. Of course, he would have to pick one. --Evb-wiki (talk) 14:34, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

WP:COMMON applies here. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not fighting hard here. But it's not mandatory he resign from the Senate. Though, if he is to serve as VP, he would have to. --Evb-wiki (talk) 14:50, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

There are people who turn down vice-presidential running mate offers; McGovern was turned down by about five different senators in 1972. But once you've accepted the offer, campaigned in the election, and won, there's been no one who's ever then decided they'd rather remain in the Senate. Yes, we could change the article to say, "If he won both races and decided to be sworn in as vice-president, ..." But that would seem to imply that Biden was undecided about which he wanted to be, and there's absolutely no indication that that is the case. Or we could change the article to say, "If he won both races, he could resign as senator ..." But that would seem to imply he has an option to be both, which he does not. You're taking us a long way here to solve a non-problem in the text. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:57, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Number of images

This article now has too many images, especially as they mostly represent Biden from the same period (the last three years or so). I'm starting to pare them down. If people want to do image research, find some from past decades that we can use.... Wasted Time R (talk) 13:38, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

American Oil Co. executive: Joe Biden's grandfather.

Not mentioned in the article, but should be included if Sarah Palin's husband's employment at an oil field is in her's.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation/politics/bal-te.infocuswest26aug26,0,4200449.story —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.52.134.234 (talk) 14:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

No. The point is potential conflict of interest. Joe Biden's grandfather is long gone. Perhaps Biden's grandfather should be included as part of his family heritage, but Palin's situation has nothing to do with it. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

First Wife: Neilia Hunter merits her own article

Neilia Hunter, Biden's first wife who died in a car accident merits her own article. Please let's create one ASAP.

There seems to be some confusion on the source of the Corvette that Biden received as a wedding gift in 1966 and continues to drive today. Some, viz. http://a11news.com/--list Miss Hunter's father and the donor, while others, viz. http://www.usatoday.com/ list the source as Mr. Biden's father. --TMH (talk) 18:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure an article is warranted, as tragically her life was cut short way too early. Other political first spouses we have articles for, such as Joan Bennett Kennedy, Carol McCain, Julia Thorne, or Donna Hanover, have had greater public visibility and/or post-marriage accomplishments. And I'm not sure what the significance is of who gave the Corvette – that's the kind of small detail that newspaper articles often get wrong and then carry forward over time, or that people honestly remember differently. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Cellphone photo

How exactly does a photo of a cellphone contribute to this article? It seems horribly out of place, if not downright unencyclopedic. Couldn't this be replaced with a properly sourced quote? Surely the message is posted verbatim on several reputible news sites that could be cited easily. 161.165.196.84 (talk) 20:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? rootology (C)(T) 14:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Roman Catholic

Although the article refers to Mr Biden as a Roman Catholic, someone in the Discussion area about Sarah Palin refers to him as an "excommunicted" RC, who "supports abortion". Is this true? Millbanks (talk) 08:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth (emphasis in original). That said, I seriously doubt it's true. It may be a reference to the suggestion during the last election that pro-choice Catholic politicians shouldn't be allowed to participate in Communion.--chaser - t 08:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I remember a similar flap with Tom Daschle and the bishop in his home district while he was a pro-choice Senator...there have been some cases of people being told they shouldn't take Communion but I've never heard of a prominent politician actually being excommunicated, although the catechism says they theoretically could be. Chaser is right about really good sourcing being needed for a claim like that. Kelly ^hi! 08:51, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

This is the best source I could find to prove we're not making it up. ;-) --chaser - t 09:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Nobody can doubt that Biden is deeply a Catholic, who prays every night for abortion to remain legal. According to this site : "Barack Obama didn't choose just any Roman Catholic when he named Joe Biden his vice presidential running mate. He chose a weekly massgoer who once threatened to shove his rosary beads down the throat of the next Republican who said he wasn't religious." I hope he doesn't choke on his own words. Religion is being replaced by politics in America, you can see that there are plenty like him. If the Church didn't excommunicate John Kerry, who supported also partial-birth abortion, that is a form of infanticide, and gay marriage, I doubt they will do the same to him. The Church could spread a revolution against religious fakes if it started to excommunicated all these.85.240.18.225 (talk) 17:04, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Does the Catholic Church excommunicate anyone these days? Seems anachronistic to me. -R. fiend (talk) 21:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Not very often. I think the last I heard of was several years ago. rootology (C)(T) 14:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

You can read the article about Excommunication in the Wikipedia. It's not anachronistic at all. Recently, the former Zambian bishop Emmanuel Milingo was excommunicated. It's also ironic that the Catholic Church excommunicated Marcel Lefebvre, in 1988, for ordaining bishops without the Vatican permission, and he was from the most conservative wing of the Catholic Church.85.244.55.144 (talk) 15:48, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Inasmuch as the Media Finds It Acceptable to Report on the Sex Life of Governor Palin's 17-year-old Daughter, Will it Now be Appropriate to Include a Section Here on the Sex Life of Biden's Daughter from His Second Wife?

I think it would not be appropriate, but there appears to be a double standard which makes it just dandy to spread rumors about, and to report in the media on, the sex life of Governor Palin's young (17) daughter.

Is what is sauce for the goose also sauce for the gander? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.153.18 (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make a right, in general. In particular, the Palin announcement in question came from the Palin campaign. The rumor that preceded it was both ludicrous and vile, and deserves no place here. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Joseph Biden Nick Names

In addition to Joseph Biden's traditional nickname "Joe," he as begun to go by an alternate nick name Joe "Chia Pet" Biden to accurately reflect his hairplugs. 98.210.176.182 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Biden and the RIAA

Who no mention of the well-documented fact that Joe Biden sponsored very pro-RIAA legislature that involved:

• supporting a bill that would make manipulation of a device so that it would be able to play unauthorized content a federal offence
• signing a letter in which he and some other senators pleaded with the government to take a stronger stance against file-sharers
• supported a new law that tries to ban home-recording of digital radio broadcasts
• supported legislation that was designed to limit encryption possibilities for civilians

68.46.183.96 (talk) 08:31, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

It's mentioned in Political positions of Joe Biden. Switzpaw (talk) 08:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Joe Biden thinks glowsticks and bottled water are drug paraphanelia...

...and he sponsored the "Reducing Americans' Vulnerability to Ecstasy Act of 2002," also called the "RAVE Act" which declares them as such. Why is this not included? 68.46.183.96 (talk) 08:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

It's mentioned in Political positions of Joe Biden. Switzpaw (talk) 08:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Joe Biden's demanded before the Council on Foreign Relations in October 2002 that the war in Afghanistan be fought by American ground troops "mano-a-mano," i.e. on the ground with no air support. He, understandably, got a lot of flack for the comment. Why isn't this mentioned? 68.46.183.96 (talk) 08:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)