Talk:Naturopathy

Regulation in Australia

This entry is not comprehensive under current education options available within Australia. Vocational training is accessible under the government accredited Australian Quality Training Framework (AQTF) and there are many Registered Training Organisations (RTOs) who provide quality outcomes for students, including options to articulate with Universities which offer degree programmes.

We do not yet know if and when registration for naturopaths may be ratified, and how this may affect current arrangements, but this article mispresents the present situation. Advanced Diploma Graduates from many accredited RTOs may obtain PI insurance and gain professional accreditation, by meeting the standards of the relevant professional organisations.

We believe the following entry should be changed from:

It is generally thought that with registration, a minimum four-year degree and 400 hours of supervised clinical practice will be required for practice. Currently only a few institutions fulfil these requirements, including Health Schools Australia the Australian College of Natural Medicine's degree course, Southern Cross University Bachelor degree, and the University of Western Sydney's combined Bachelor of Applied Science (Naturopathic Studies) and Graduate Diploma in Naturopathy.

To:

While professional membership is currently available to Advanced Diploma and degree graduates under the Australian Quality Training Framework and Higher Education standards respectively, it is generally thought that with registration, a minimum four-year degree and 400 hours of supervised clinical practice may be required for practice. Prospective students would be wise to consider this when selecting their college of choice. Many organisations, such as Paramount College of Natural Medicine, are able to fulfill the current and future needs of the student with articulations into Universities, such as Charles Sturt University and the University of New England. Currently only a few institutions offer a degree, including Health Schools Australia the Australian College of Natural Medicine's degree course, Southern Cross University Bachelor degree, and the University of Western Sydney's combined Bachelor of Applied Science (Naturopathic Studies) and Graduate Diploma in Naturopathy. In the meantime, this issue may take some time to unfold, and student options will continue to diversify as this occurs.

````  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pcnm2007 (talk • contribs) 05:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC) 

I'm removing the entire paragraph in question. It violates WP:Crystal, not to mention it is unreferenced JamesStewart7 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Note that it would not violate WP:Crystal if references were added (and it is infact an event in progress) and speculation about the future (uncertain) requirements (and who will fulfil them) is removed. JamesStewart7 (talk) 06:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I totally disagree that a Bachelor of Naturopathy is considered to be a minimum level of education for Naturopathy practice in Australia. Most Naturopaths in Australia hold a Diploma or Advanced Diploma which is more than adequate. Colleges such as The Australian Institute of Applied Sciences [1] and Australian College of Natural Therapies provide fully accredited training that satisfies the requirements of Australia's regulatory bodies both for standards of training and industry specific groups. Degree courses are a nice revenue raiser for Universities to make money from what they themselves consider to be quackery (they extoll the virtues of Natural Medicine with one hand whilst their Medical faculty calls in charlatanism).

Apologies if I have not followed the correct editing techniques as this is my first ever entry on a wikipedia document. Can i suggest the following, and any discussion around training gets its own area?:

Although there is no licensure for naturopaths in Australia, naturopathic medicine is covered by a range of legislation and regulation.

• Quarantine Act 1908 [2] restricts importation and use of some products.
• Therapeutic Goods Act 1989 [3] (TGA 1989) governs the registration, advertising, and labelling of products. This legislation is enforced by the Therapeutic Goods Administration.
• Therapeutic Goods Regulations 1990 [4] expands upon the (TGA 1989) and details allowed ingredients, dosages, and prohibited items. In Schedule 1 it lists recognised professional associations.
• A New Tax System (Goods and Services) Act 1999 [5] allows GST exemption for practitioners if they are a member of a recognised professional association.
• Commonwealth and state health acts.
• State drugs and poisons legislation (and schedules) which regulates the prescribing rights of medical practitioners.
• State health complaints commissioners.

In 2003 the Therapeutic Goods Administration issued the biggest medical recall in Australian history, and suspended the licence of Pan Pharmaceuticals Limited over manipulation of quality control test data. [6] In response to community and health professionals concern, the Australian government established the Expert Committee on Complementary Medicines in the Health System [7] to advise the government on necessary amendments to the current regulatory requirements. The committees report contained 49 recommendations including the training, accreditation and regulation of practitioners. [8] In 2005 the Government issued a response and in 2006 established the Complementary Medicines Implementation Reference Group [9] to oversee the implementation of this response. Keeganlom —Preceding comment was added at 01:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for the changes but I think the protection of title issue is an important one to keep as it is one of the key points of difference between Australia and other jurisdictions - many of the issues are explained in further detail here [10] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grubbidok (talk • contribs) 11:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you able to place in a line that articulates that point? I'd feel more comfortable if someone else has added to this. What is the process after that to get it on to the main page? Please forgive my ignorance. Keeganlom —Preceding comment was added at 11:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Innate ability to heal

The lede currently says that the body is presumed to have innate healing abilities. Isn't this generally accepted? The body has an immune system and can heal wounds, right? Surely the point of naturopathy is to emphasise these acknowledged innate healing abilities. Colonel Warden (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree Colonel. It is redundant to write that the '..presumed ability of the body to heal itself, which practitioners claim is innate...' (a presumed ability that is claimed to be innate - Uuhgg...that sentence needs to be taken outside and shot!). However, given the recent near edit-war, I suggest you let it stand for now as a peace offering to those who would no doubt argue that writing about the 'innate ability to self heal' is POV. In truth, either modifier alone would probably maintain NPOV:

• ... the presumed ability of the body to heal itself...

OR

• ... the ability of the body to heal itself, which practitioners assume/claim is innate

207.112.75.95 (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• Since you supported this point I have acted upon it and moved on to further improve the lede. The list of modalities perhaps needs attention as I'd like to see some sourcing for entries such as aromatherapy which are arguably a different form of therapy. I have sorted the list to make further inspection easier. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, I agree with the Colonel - 'aromatherapy' isn't taught or used in the six naturopathic colleges for example. This points out the main problem with the article, that 'natural medicine' is not a single kind of medicine with a rigidly defined curriculum. The lead should inform the reader that:

• nat med is an approach to helathcare, not a single form of medicine
• this approach is used by different kinds of practitioners
• nat med is incorporated into different models of care (primary, complementary, alternative).

The opposite of 'natural medicine' therefore is not 'evidence based medicine' as is currently being suggested by the lead. Some natural treatments have good evidence, others do not. The same is true for conventional medicine, although it is true that conventional med interventions considered as a whole are better studied. Some practitioners of naturopathic medicine use evidence every day and others do not use it at all. If the lead has to refer to evidence based medicine, I would initially change this:

• "...may recommend patients use evidence-based medicine alongside their treatments"

to this:

• "...may use or recommend evidence-based medicine alongside their treatments"

but would really like to see this:

• "may use or recommend conventional medical interventions alongside their treatments"

...which is the most acurate. 207.112.75.95 (talk) 14:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Innate is a common belief among practitioners. QuackGuru (talk) 18:18, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It's a common belief for just about everyone and so doesn't need saying.

I don't find anything wrong with a statement suggesting that the human body has an innate ability to heal itself, I think that is irrefutable. The real problem is found in claims of this sort

"naturopathic physicians employ methods which use or aid or bolster or work with the body's innate ability to heal itself."

This is a gross assumption which can not be justified by evidence, or even common sense. Keep in mind (as stated several times above) that the broad claims of efficacy and safety for naturopathic practices are, in most cases, unsubstantiated. Now you expect me to believe that you actually know how all of these unsubstantiated interventions work? And that they all simply boost the body's innate ability to heal itself? And that the same vague claim can't be made for any standard pharmaceutical or surgical intervention? And that the interactions of the cellular components of your body with compounds of botanic origin aren't governed by the same biochemical phenomena as are cellular interactions with synthesized pharmaceuticals?

Sure, you may find experimental evidence that a particular herb or compound augments the activity of the immune system (though these claims are most often found to be spurious, or at best unimpressive, when properly tested). But to suggest that all naturopathic practices somehow boost the body's innate defenses, without suggesting how you could possibly know this to be true, is nonsense. If you guys want to be taken seriously, you have to get rid of these ridiculous, arbitrary, meaningless, and touchy-feely qualifiers of your art. Just because you want to believe that naturopathy works with the body in a way unique from that of standard therapies doesn't make it so. Particularly since there is absolutely no basis for making this claim.

There is a lot of great stuff to be found in nature and a lot of powerful therapeutic potential. The biggest problem I keep coming across with the field of naturopathy is that, despite the recent development of professional societies, accredited academic institutions, the adaptation of evidence based research, and a slew of other forward thinking and real-world approaches to increasing the legitimacy of naturopathy, the field is still plagued by the quick fix, easy answer, nature-knows-best, touchy-feely, new age garbage which does nothing but undercut all of the legitimate attempts to harness the power of nature for therapeutic intervention. Even in these pages the problem is distressing. I first got into this discussion when I read (way up at the top) that "Herbal COX 2 inhibitors do not have the same side effects in the liver and heart as the pharmaceutical ones" (a direct quote from someone claiming to be an ND). With all of the accredited and well educated, thoroughly informed NDs roaming these pages (as evidenced by many posts above), why was it that *I* had to point out the FACT that there are not any known herbal COX-2 inhibitors with established therapeutic windows? You guys can't let this stuff slide. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to call out and challenge the nonsense. Which brings us frighteningly close to a scientific approach... 209.59.114.169 (talk) 18:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)P.Cogan

It's great to hear insightful criticism from someone outside the profession, P. Cogan, thanks. I think what people are getting at when they talk about naturopathic practices boosting the body's innate defenses, is that naturopaths aim for improving health through supporting the normal and balanced functions of the individual, as opposed to improving health through attacking a pathogen, or interfering with a metabolic pathway. That basic philosophical difference is a pretty significant difference between the ways that most NDs aspire to practice and the way that most MDs aspire to practice. Now, in a state like Oregon, where I live, NDs can and do prescribe antibiotics. But we're trained employ other methods first, if there are any available, which might allow an individual to successfully heal from their infection without us directly addressing the pathogen. For example, types of hydrotherapy that increase lymphocyte production and circulation to the affected area, or dietary changes that reduce inflammatory tendencies that are inhibiting the recovery process. There's plently of peer-reviewed studies showing that diet can influence inflammation, and hydrotherapy addresses immune function. We aspire to a theraputic order which involves removing obstacles to cure, supporting normal function, and then perhaps interfering with a metabolic pathway or addressing a pathogen or whatnot. Lamaybe (talk) 07:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this before but the innate ability to heal is actually dirctly derived from one of the principles of naturopathic practice, the very thing by which it is defined. That is Vis medicatrix naturae - the healing power of nature. This has nothing to do with using natural COX-2 inhibitors or any natural supplements and everything to do with encouraging the body's natural processes - call it propping up the body's biochemistry if you want. The difference is that naturopathic treatment supports the body to heal itself whereas in conventional medicine it is often the intervention doing the work. Come on guys! Were you not taught the underlying principles of naturopathic treatment in your courses. I've noticed they are conspicuously absent from this article which I find quite honestly gobsmacking. If you need a citation look at Murray and Pizzorno - which for all its faults quite comprehensively lists these[11] or simply look any of the association or college websites for naturopathic principles [12] [13] [14] [15] . This arguing over semantics is moot, the fact is this principle, amongst others, drives naturopathic practice and should be listed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grubbidok (talk • contribs) 11:09, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Naturopathic Colleges in Australia

There seems to be a lack of Australian representation here, which is unusual as Australia has one of the highest rates of employment in Natural Medicine in the world. Training is generally done at an RTO/Vocational Training level at places like The Australian Institute of Applied Sciences [16] , Australian College of Natural Therapies and also at University level for Degree courses (although in practice, Advanced Diploma of Naturopathy or a diploma in a specific field is generally considered adequate training for Naturopaths). The most popular fields are Naturopathy, Nutrition, Acupuncture and Massage (generally also taught by Natural Medicine Colleges).

--Hollowpointr (talk) 00:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Hollowpointr - I do think there is a lack of representation here but that may be precisely because of the changes happening in the field in Australia. You've mentioned a few colleges that are deemed insufficient by many associations (which are, admittedly variable in quality and entry requirements) and vocational training has been on the way out for a long time. Even universities are being phased out (the Charles Sturt University and University of New England distance upgrade 'degrees' (also used by UK institutions) are starting to be seen as insufficient to gain accreditation from the associations due to lack of clinical practice and skills aquired. This is why they are "Bachelor of Complementary Therapies" not naturopathic degrees and I'll doubt they'll survive registration should it come along. The University of Western Sydney degree is accepted by professional associations only if they do a Postgraduate Certificate to gain required clinical experience. Some private colleges are actually OHE accredited degree granting institutions with degrees far more rigorous than any of the universities (with the exception of Southern Cross University) such as the Australian College of Natural Medicine and Southern School of Natural Therapies. The smaller institutions are being locked out due to this professionalisation. However, as no section exists on education, and as Wikipedia is not in the habit of advertising courses, I think it would be more appropriate to focus on the regulatory & political issues in Australia and the professionalisation of the industry rather than training alone. I would support the introduction of this content and be happy to helpGrubbidok (talk) 10:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Minnesota licensure

I propose that Minnesota be moved to states with full licensure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ayersmed (talk • contribs) 01:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I tried a quick google search for the news that Minnesota approved a senate bill allowing ND's full licensure, but nothing came up. Can you provide a credible ref? --travisthurston+ 17:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I haven't found any solid references to back it up, but the Governor Pawlenty apparently signed it into low on Friday, May 23. "Final tally in Minnesota, Senate 60-3, House 111-22. Signed by Gov. Pawlenty 5/23/2008". Once we get a ref from an official site (Mn state preferred) we can add it to the list. --travisthurston+ 19:38, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

See https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/revisor/pages/search_status/status_detail.php?b=House&f=HF1724&ssn=0&y=2007
and https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H1724.5.html&session=ls85

The new Minnesota law regulating naturopathic doctors, Statute 147E, is technically a registration, not licensure. In Minnesota, the difference between registration and licensure is semantic, the scope of registration can be just as broad as that of licensure. The powers to be felt that 'registration' was a more neutral term than licensure, where licensure connotes state approval. I browsed through the Kansas legislation for registration, the Minnesota law looks much more comprehensive, more like a licensure law in Alaska, at first glance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.131.130 (talk) 03:19, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

American School of Naturopathy as "diploma mill" (HIstory section)

I tried to follow the links and the footnote for the following sentence:

but "according to the New York Department of State, and the Florida Report to Governor Leroy Collins, it appears that this naturopathic school was never anything but a diploma mill". [4].

Neither the links nor the footnote go to any meaningful reference. Unless someone can provide a reference, I move that this sentence gets removed. Anyone second that? Lamaybe (talk) 11:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather keep it up there to inform people that it is a diploma mill. There are probably people around with degrees from it -- and innocent people looking for information on the degree would be aided by its inclusion in the article. ImpIn | (t - c) 21:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I can't find any references indicating that is was a diploma mill, so unless there is some available reference indicating that it was, I propose we remove the statement. Also, I think the school closed in the 1930s, so there probably aren't people around with the degree anymore :). Lamaybe (talk) 18:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's been a week with no new comments on this topic, so I'm going to remove the "diploma mill" reference. 208.75.45.130 (talk) 16:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Good riddance. The ANMA reference was no more than a smear attack by a competing organization and could have been classified as wp:or or wp:syn with no more credibility than a blog entry. --travisthurston+ 18:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

AfD notification.

A new article, Naturopathic doctor has been created, however, it's serving as a POV fork of this one, as it ignores the main problem that has been discussed over and over here: What is true in a small minority of jurisdictions i s being treated as the standard. I did a websearch, discovered this is not true, indeed, the advice given in that article may be dangerous, as in most jurisdictions, anyone can call themselves an ND, not just the highly-trained professionals that article claims are the only ones. I have thus nominated the article for deletion, therefore: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Naturopathic_doctor If you must create a new article, could you at least take care to handle the demarcation problem, making it very clear that there are huge gaping loopholes that mean theree is no legal protection against quacks calling themselves MDs in the vast majority of places? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Naturopathic modalities

The article was focussing too much on 'who a naturopath is' and not enough on 'what a naturopath does', so I added the 'Core naturopathic modalites' section to get the ball rolling. The lack of universal regulation for the profession will no doubt make this a challenge, with NDs in different jurisdictions having access to very different modalities. For now, I have just pasted the 'core' as defined by the CNME, but this could be improved by acknowledging the variety amongst different regions/types of practitioner. I feel that - with out dwelling on the point or creating an edit war - that the article should inform the reader that even amongst licensed NDs, there is a great deal of variation and debate.

For example, some NDs refuse to use homeopathy (I am one of them). Some NDs provide 'spiritual counselling'. Some treat cancer with IV therapy under an EBM 'best practices' model. Out there somewhere, I have no doubt that there are NDs who use iridology as a diagnostic tool. Some NDs consider themselves PCPs, others promote themselves as complimentary, etc...

Looking forward to input on how best to describe the practice of a profession that is in such a state of flux. Naturstud (talk) 14:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if perhaps this information would be better placed in the Naturopathic doctor article? Is the goal still to turn this page into a general description of naturopathic history and philosophy and move specific discussion of professional acreditation and regulation to the ND article?206.47.252.66 (talk) 19:56, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I also think this information should be moved to the ND article unless, for example, naturopathic emergency medicine in some way differs from conventional emergency medicine--and if it does the article should explain that difference. - Headwes (talk) 01:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Weasel words and verify source

“ According to a 1998 taskforce report, many conventionally trained physicians are choosing to add naturopathic modalities to their practice... ”

I wanted to improve this sentence by replacing the weasel word "many" with something more meaningful, but I couldn't find anything in the given source to support the claim. I tagged the citation as needing a quote--anyone want to point me to the right page? - Headwes (talk) 01:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

NDs are trained to use imaging, laboratory and other diagnostic tests

This fact was recently deleted from the article. I have put it back in. Is it really in dispute, or is there a POV issue that i am missing here? Is a citation needed for this? Lab and imaging courses are standard in all CNME acredited schools - is anyone out there arguing that they are not? They also teach anatomy, physiology and microbiology. The students sit in chairs in the lecture theatres, read information from text books and write tests and exams each year. Does any of this need to be 'sourced'? 206.47.252.66 (talk) 19:14, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this needs to be sourced. Things will run a lot smoother with references. QuackGuru 19:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, personally I think this is overkill, but happy to oblige...What would be an apropriate source? Curricula from the schools websites describing their courses, or perhaps the CNME document that describes the requirements of all acredited programs?([[17]])206.47.252.66206.47.252.66 (talk) 19:35, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor Surgery

Doesn't prescribing pharmaceutical medication and performing surgery go against the entire ethos of complementary and alternative medical systems? Doesn't it go against everything that "Naturopathy" stands for? Why on earth would a Naturopath be doing surgery? This sounds like nothing but a money grab from the profession pushing to be PCPs so that they can pick up more of the Family Practice (MD/DO) buck that is out there in the United States just like Nurse Practitioners.

"In a sworn deposition on August 2nd, 1995, the (then) president of the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians (AANP), when asked about minor surgery, declared vasectomies preformed by naturopathic doctors to be a minor surgical procedure. He stated, that vasectomies fall within the scope of naturopathic practice. When asked if this procedure is taught at National College, he said, I don't know. When this naturopath was asked about other surgeries he admitted doing hemorrhoid operations, "sewing" of laceration, skin biopsies varicotomies and electrocautery of warts. He declared breast implants to be a relatively simple procedure."[18] Jwri7474 (talk) 20:55, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

You may not approve of NDs prescribing drugs and performing minor surgery. As a matter of fact, I know some NDs who would agree with you (and others who wouldn't). But it is a fact that in some jurisdictions NDs do provide these services, and it is reasonable for the article to inform readers of this fact. Naturstud (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

The only ones who would not agree are the ones who wish to move outside of the scope of providing natural therapies and move into the realm of practicing medicine and surgery. It may be a fact that a few states have recently allowed this. However, it should be noted that prescribing pharmaceutical medications and performing surgery has nothing to do with promoting and providing natural therapies which is the practice of Naturopathy. It can no longer be classified as "CAM" i.e. alternative to MD (med/surg) practice if you are offering the same services.Jwri7474 (talk) 03:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

We probably have a different understanding of the word 'naturopathic' (and probably 'natural'). To me, surgery (and even drugs) are not the opposite of naturopathy. Naturopathy is an aproach to healthcare that emphasizes (to quote the article) "the innate ability of the body to heal itself". Just because the focus is on prevention, lifestyle modification and natural health products doesn't mean that X-rays, ampiciliin and skin biopsies must not be used. There is nothing in naturopathic philosophy or practice that would prohibit these useful tools.206.47.252.66 (talk) 22:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

So correct me if I’m wrong, but you believe that there is nothing contradictory about a "Naturopathic Plastic/Cosmetic surgeon”, or a “Naturopathic Ophthalmologist”, etc.

NDs do not specialize, so no - you won't be seing a "Naturopathic Opthamologist" anytime soon. As an ND I am comfortable performing an eye exam before making a diagnosis and establishing a treatment/managment plan which may include pharmacotherapy, recomendations for surgical consult etc. I am not opposed to using technology (my opthalmascope) on the grounds that it uses electrcity or is 'unnatural' in some way.206.47.252.66 (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Lifestyle modification and prevention. Hmm.. my MD family doctor already emphasis healthy diets, exercise, smoking cessation, as well as a mirad of other lifestyle modification and preventative strategies with his patients. So, again.. I ask. How would you’re view of a Naturopath be any different than an MD.

Your definition of Naturopathy practice is not complementary to or alternative to mainstream medical practice. Jwri7474 (talk) 23:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Precisely. I don't see the naturopathic aproach as being the opposite of the conventional one. Medicine is medicine. The emphasis of nat-med isn't nearly as radical or bizarre as meany people imagine. It is not fundamentally incompatible with mainstream med. Your MD has some knowledge of how to use lifestlye mod to help you, and more knowledge/expertise about how to use drugs to help you. Your ND has some knowledge about how to use the drugs and more knowledge about the lifestyle mod. It comes down to a question of emphasis.206.47.252.66 (talk) 00:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That is a very minority view of the practice of Naturopathy. Only a handful of US states allow such practice. Worldwide and even within the US in most states. This (med/surg) is not the practice of mainstream naturopathy. Jwri7474 (talk) 02:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nine out of fifteen states permit minor surgery. That is a "majority" - even if a slim one. The article states that minor surgery is avail in 'some' states. If you are concerned you could replace 'some' with 'nine', or 'nine out of the fifteen'. I think it is enough that the article inform the reader that scopes vary widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and refer them to a local source if they would like to know more about their own region. Naturstud (talk) 14:09, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I was referring to out of all of the US states. Only a small few allow this. If you are referring to all of the 15 states that license naturopaths.. then yeah, a slim majority of those allow this. Jwri7474 (talk) 14:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I see. Well you are correct, then. A minority of jurisdications in North America permit minor surgery by naturopathic doctors. However, only a minority of jurisdictions have formally recognized/regulated naturopathic practice to begin with! If the article doesn't make it clear that a minority of jurisdictions have actually regulated nat-med, then that needs to be cleared up. In regions with adequate legislation, minor surgery is a significant part of naturopathic medicine. Naturstud (talk) 15:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Wiki policy violation: pasted infro from quackwatch

Someone is pasting a large copyrighted work from quackwatch.com (http://www.naturowatch.org/licensure/laws.shtml) into the regulation section. Never mind that the info out of date and espousing a quackwatch POV - but wiki policy forbids the pasting of copyrighted material. 206.47.252.66 (talk) 00:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

That information is not copyrighted. Also, the information presented on the regulation in the US was published in 2005 (not out of date) by an independant review.[19]Jwri7474 (talk) 02:32, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The sunrise report has been recently updated (2008). [[20]] It is one of the most concise and complete state-by-state descriptions of naturopathic scope of practice. The article should refer American readers who would like to know more about the scope of practice in their state this document. Copying the complete play by play into the regulation section seems excessive however. Naturstud (talk) 14:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Licensure controversy

Naturstud, what do you mean by balanced account. I included information from many states. It was not just Mass. What is wrong with having this information in the article? There is information about licensure in general.. so I think the issues regarding licensure are of relavance.Jwri7474 (talk) 14:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry If I wasn't clear. You were making two edits. The edit that included the 2005 exerpt of the sunshine report adds important information (although the 2008 version is better). I just don't think that it is a good idea to paste a play by play of each state directly from the report. A summary is better. I have made an initial attempt to do that.

The second edit you made was about a testimonial made by an MD to the Massachusetts ctte that was looking into - and eventually recomended - the regulation of NDs. Your acount of the 'controversy' included a large quote of the MD who was opposed to regulation but you did not report that the ctte issued a recomendation in favour on regulation. If you think that the debate is more notable than the results then you should at least present a balanced acount of it. There were many submission to the ctte - presumably many arguing in against K. Atwoods position. Again, since the ctte concluded that regulation was needed, I don't really see the relevance. A description of opposition to naturopathic medicine belongs in the article. I for one would not mind seeing a 'criticism' section. If you want to fold the criticism into the main text, however, it will need a more neutral POV. Naturstud (talk) 14:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nature Cure

I clarified the usage Nature cure here to indicate that it is an equivalent term for naturopathy. I provided a source but another editor disputes this. Here are relevant definitions from the OED.

• nature cure n. the curing of disease by natural agencies, without the use of drugs (cf. NATUROPATHY n.)

• naturopathy, n. A theory of disease and system of therapy based on the supposition that diseases can be cured by natural agencies, without the use of drugs.

I still reckon that these are the same topic because neither of them is so exactly defined as to exclude the other. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

What can I say, but the OED has got it wrong? You can read about the 'Nature cure' in Lindlahr's book [21]. It was part of a 'back to nature' movement almost 100 years ago. This was a historical antecedant to modern day naturopathy, but is not it's modern day equivalent. Naturopathy as described by modern ND's is not 'drugless medicine' and none would not accept the OED's definition of 'naturopathy' which is itself hopelessly out of date. (See the discussion above: NDs in 12/15 states prescribe drugs and in 9/12 states allow them to perform minor surgery). Still Lindhlar's book is a fun read and the best of his ideas have informed modern naturopathy extensively. Naturstud (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

• Our article is not concerned exclusively with modern naturopathy. We take a historical perspective to topics, just as the OED does. Also if a modern naturopath prescribes conventional drugs then I consider that he is not practising naturopathy when he does so, just as a surgeon is not practising surgery if he should prescribe drugs too. Moreover, when it comes to the meaning of words, the OED is a highly reliable source. Your personal opinion that it is wrong is not a reliable source. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The OED's description is an historical one and does not describe naturopathic medicine as it is professed and practiced by NDs, ND schools, ND associations etc. It would be foolish to allow an out of date, one sentence definition overrule the reality. 207.112.52.135 (talk) 17:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have put 'nature cure' back in the list of naturopathic modalities. This is directly from pdf page 51 the reference being quoted (http://www.cnme.org/resources/2007_hoa.pdf). The CNME's usage of the term is consistent with modern day usage: nature cure is the use of sunlight, water and other natural elements as a modality within naturopathic medicine. 207.112.52.135 (talk) 12:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

It would be advisable to find a list of naturopathic modalities that are from peer-reviewed journals. Colonel Warden is right in his assessment here. Soyuz113 (talk) 17:51, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The fact the good folks at the OED can not tell the difference between naturopathic medicine and nature cure doesn't mean that we should make the same mistake. The cnme reference quoted above supports the use of the term 'nature cure' as a set of modalities within naturopathic medicine. Since the CNME sets the standards for training of all NDs in north america, we should probably use the term as they do. The accredited schools do not offer degrees in 'nature cure'. The term is hardly used anymore, but where it is used, it designates either the historical roots of naturopathic medicine (therapy involving sun/water/air) or the use of these modalities within modern day naturopathic practice. 64.235.217.157 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:37, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• I have trawled various sources and find that nature cure seems to be used as a synonym for naturopathy rather than being a specific therapy within it. Whorton uses in a very general sense in his book Nature Cures which states, The phrase "nature cure" has long been used by naturopaths to identify their system as one that relies upon the body's own natural healing mechanism to restore the sick to health. So, as we still lack a source which tells us what nature cure might mean in a more narrow sense, I shall remove this narrow usage again. Therapies involving the sun, air or water, would be more clearly described by terms such as sungazing, hydrotherapy or feng shui. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I have put the nature cure ref back in, reverting Colonel Warden's good faith edit. It is a fact that the CNME lists nature cure as a naturopathic modality that is taught in every naturopathic medical school. The article cites the CNME's list (http://www.cnme.org/resources/2007_hoa.pdf). It is not OK to remove an item from this well referenced list just because you do not think that it belongs there. 72.0.222.218 (talk) 00:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

• We should not use ill-defined jargon because this is bad style and might confuse our readership. I myself am still somewhat confused by this usage. In search of an explanation, I found a chapter on the topic in recent book Complementary Medicine for Dummies. This seems to distinguish the term nature cure from naturopathy and says that it is also known as Natural Hygiene or Natural Therapeutics. It describes it mainly in historical terms as the assorted methods of various doctors of the late 19th century and early 20th century. As such, it is a general term like naturopathy, and seems to comprise numerous modalities including: heliotherapy, hydrotherapy, vegetarian diet, massage, fasting, meditation, abstention, etc. It would be better if we were to list and link to these specific therapies rather than to a vague term which goes nowhere and I shall edit accordingly. My aim is that this section should describe the modalities of naturopathy clearly and this goal will not be well-served by simply parroting the CNME source as it uses the term without explaining it. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

repetative sections

There is no need to have 4 sections in this article reciting the same information. I've simply attempted to condence and simplify the article. Jwri7474 (talk) 12:11, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Also, this article is about Naturopathic medicine in general. There is no need to go on and on about the American education system in every section of this article. Keep it within the subsection of "regulation in the United States". Thanks. Jwri7474 (talk) 12:20, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me. Thanks! Verbal chat 17:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I have restored the section you deleted about the different types of naturopathic practitioners. This is key information, and it is very important that the article distinguish between training of naturopaths and the regulation of naturopaths. I agree that these are confusing topics, but the solution is not to eliminate the discussion of types of naturopathic practitioners.72.0.222.219 (talk) 01:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I added a "see also: Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine" under the "Naturopathic Doctors" section of this article. I agree that the detailed info about the naturopathic medical degree and the (confusing) use of professional titles belong in the Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine article, but I also see the need for this main article to breifly sumaraize the difference between an ND and a traditional naturopath. Ideally it would be great to have one comprehensive article, but separating things out is a good idea for the time being, as the words 'naturopath' 'naturopathic doctor', 'naturaopthic medicine' mean many different things depending who and where you are. Naturstud (talk) 18:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Difference between traditional naturopaths and NDs

I removed the sentence in the subsection on traditional naturopaths because it was misleading. It made it sound as though CNME ND grads are not classified as complementary and alternative medical providers, which they are. We have agreed that an ND may use the title "primary care provider" however, they are not a "primary care physician". Just because some states an ND is classified as such this does not negate the fact that naturopathic medicine is still classified as "complementary and alternative medicine". The graduates of CNME naturopathic medical schools are still "complementary and alternative practitioners", they do not "practice medicine" they practice "naturopathic medicine". The terms "complementary and alternative practitioner" and "primary care provider" are not mutually exclusive terms. Even US CNME ND grad are classified as both a "primary care provider" AND a "CAM practitioner". They are not however classified as "primary care physicians". Jwri7474 (talk) 04:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

NDs are trained in primary care. Traditional naturopaths are not. This is an important distinction. Personaly, I do not see being primary care as being incompatible with CAM, but I know from your previous edits that you have a difficulty accepting that one practitioner could be doing both. Still, I accept that you are editing in good faith and can understand how you might read the article as implying (incorectly) that NDs are not CAM. If you think that the article is implying this, then why not edit for clarity rather than deleting key info?

How about this -

"Traditional naturopaths are guided by the same naturopathic philosophies and principles as board-licensed naturopathic doctors and often prescribe similar treatments as alternative or complementary practitioners, but are not primary care providers."

Or this -

"Traditional naturopaths are guided by the same naturopathic philosophies and principles as board-licensed naturopathic doctors and often prescribe similar treatments striclty as alternative or complementary practitioners rather than as primary care providers."

Or even this -

"Traditional naturopaths are guided by the same naturopathic philosophies and principles as board-licensed naturopathic doctors and often prescribe similar treatments as alternative or complementary practitioners without providing primary care."

Really, the possibilities are endless. Naturstud (talk) 04:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

None of those versions state that even CNME grads practice "alternative medicine"... the entire article is slanted such that an uneducated reader "joe public" would think after reading it that a CNME ND graduate is equal to an MD/DO and this is not true. I know you think I'm being pedantic.. and I apologies. But I think it is an important issue to make clear. Traditional or not CNME accredited or not... all practice of naturopathy or naturopathic medicine is still classified in every US state and Canadian province as complementary and alternative medicine. CNME grads may be primary care providers but they do so in the construct of naturopathic alternative medicine only. They do not "practice medicine". Again, I just feel that it should be written in such a way that the public understands the issue. Thanks Jwri7474 (talk) 04:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The last edit looks good to me. Thanks. Jwri7474 (talk) 04:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for working on a 'consensus of two' tonight Jwiri. We will have to disagree - I really don't see anything in the article that suggests to 'joe public' than an MD is equal to an ND. As for being pedantic, may I point out that no jurisdiction has 'classified' NDs as CAM. I have not read every act of legislation, but I have read many, and CAM just doesn't come up as a legal term anywhere. By the same token, I have not found the concept of 'primary care' to exist in any state or provincial legislation. There is no one 'in charge' of the terms 'primary care' or 'CAM' it seems.

The CNME, the schools that it accredits and the graduates that they produce all use the term 'primary care' to describe what they do. I am sure you can find some opinions out there suggesting that NDs should not be described with this term. Likewise, 'CAM' is a term used by a lot of organizations and people to describe naturopathy. I am equally sure that you can find some opinions out there suggesting that NDs should not be described with this term either.

The 'practice of medicine'

As for your statement that as an ND I do not 'practice medicine', I must tell you that I find that assertion offensive, but in light of our recent collaboration, am going to assume an ignorant good faith on your part. My anatamy text book was not a 'naturopathic' anatomy textbook. When I order I CBC for a pateint, it is not a naturopathic version. I do not diagnose 'naturopathic' anemia, or auscultate lung fields with a 'naturopathic' stethoscope. Traditional naturopaths (where this started tonight) may be trained without an anatomy textbook, can not order a CBC and so are unlikely to be able to tell you what kind of anemia you have, and are not required to own a stethoscope. Even worse, since they have no license to lose, traditional naturopaths are much less likely to arrange for a referal to an MD when such a referal could very well save your life. (talk) 05:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean to "offend you". I don't want to argue with you, because you should be aware that it is not "my opinion" that I am stating.. but the opinion of every US state medical board. I can find plenty of sources for you (and would be more than happy to) if you have not already read the definition of "practicing medicine" on such sites. Every state board of medicine in the US holds such a definition. You may define yourself as a health care provider, however the term "practicing medicine" is equally a protected title in the United States. It is illegal to "practice medicine" in every US state without a licensed medical degree (MD, MBBS, MBChB, or DO). I understand and appreciate the fact that CNME has "accredited" naturopathy schools and raised the standards of the profession in line with orthodox medicine. It was these unorthodox practices that had most of the schools shut down in the first place. However, even though you study anatomy, physiology, and body systems etc.. that does not make what you do "practicing medicine". If you believe that.. then I would argue that Physical therapists, nurses, audiologists, chiropractors, occupational therapists, ad nausum equally "practice medicine" because they incorporate medical sciences into their curriculum. Physical therapy programs on average even have many many hours of gross anatomy.

Your claims are wild and innacurate Jwri. Do you actually expect us to beleive that you have specific knowledge of the rules of each and every US state medical board, and their "opinion" as well? Your hair splitting is becoming nauseating. Naturstud (talk) 15:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Every US state board states something to the effect: If you were to advertise yourself as "practicing medicine" to any potential patients either in printed form, verbal, or on the internet. Or if you use the term "physician", etc without preceding it with the identifying title of "naturopathic"; then you may be prosecuted, fined, and or imprisioned. Jwri7474 (talk) 06:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Hyperbole and legal hair splitting again, Jwiri. Is "practicing naturopathic medicine" a semantic subtype of "practicing medicine". Is a naturopath who clearly states that he is an ND but also states that he practices medicine actually guilty of violating a law somewhere? I don't know, and I don't have an opinion, and I am not interested in yours unless it is notable and verifiable. Naturstud (talk) 15:29, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

That is the point. As long as you ARE clearly stating that you are an ND and that you are practicing “naturopathic medicine” then you should be fine. Yes, there is a law “somewhere” it’s a law that is held by every US state medical board. It is notable and verifiable in the bylaws of every state board of medicine. Jwri7474 (talk) 16:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that if you were to sit in on some lectures at a naturopathic medical school or follow an ND around for the day or write the NPLEX you might find that the basic medical training and ability of the ND is fundamentally the same as an MD. I can only hope that the article will get better at describing who NDs are and what they do. Naturstud (talk) 05:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

You may wish to assert this because it would help your career. However, wikipedia is not the place for asserting such an unsourced POV (point of view). Jwri7474 (talk) 06:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Now you are bordering on pickin' a fight. This discussion page is the perfect place to state my uncensored POV. Are you accusing me of something here? Do you imagine that I am loading up the wiki article to increase my profits somehow? I stand by my edits as being as NPOV as edits can get. The fact that I am an ND means that I know more about NDs than you do, but I have never sought to contribute anything but verifiable notable facts to this article.Naturstud (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I’m not trying to “pick a fight”. This is not a personal issue… it is a professional issue. I’m sorry you are taking this personally. It is not meant to be a personal attack. However, asserting that you are something that you are not is professional fraud and against the law. You are not allowed to assert yourself as a medical physician. These titles are restricted and regulated. Jwri7474 (talk) 16:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

NDs are licensed to provide "primary (medical) care" in some states, including prescribing prescription drugs, but they "do not practice medicine"? Riiight. Certainly the fact that NDs are only licensed in a certain number of states should be emphasized, and the the fact that "traditional naturopaths" may have no real credentials needs to be emphasized. I'm not sure how we can alleviate Jwri7474's concerns, as I don't quite understand what she is saying. II | (t - c) 05:48, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Nurses are equally trying to twist the legal language to assert the same that they are "practicing medicine" by completing a "doctor of nursing practice" DNP degree.. and that the DNP degree is equal to the MD degree because they sit similar exams, etc. However, this is not the case. The same thing happened to physical therapists. Just because you hold a Doctor of Physical Therapy and study gross anatomy and the like.. does not mean that you practice medicine. A physical therapist with a 'Bachelors degree' BSPT degree holds the exact same license and scope of practice as a DNP graduate. The same will be said for Nurse practitioners who hold the DNP degree and those that hold the Masters or Certificate. You can have your course "accredited" (and I'm glad you do) I do agree with you that naturopathy needed "some form" of standards set for the profession. However, that does not negate the fact that even CNME ND graduates are still practicing (naturopathic medicine/naturopathy) which is under the umbrella of "complementary and alternative medicine" i.e. complementary and alternative to orthodox medicine.. and no ND degree is considered "equivalent" to an MD degree. eqJwri7474 (talk) 06:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Provide some good sources and you might be able to edit something like this into the article. I don't know about the legal language, but from a linguistic and rational perspective practicing medicine is providing medical care. Holding an MD or a DO is not a not a necessary condition. II | (t - c) 06:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Well... it is a necessary condition according to every US state medical board - the governing body that regulates the "practice of medicine" within the United States.

Here are examples: [22],[23],[24], [25] ,[26], [27]

What you imagine the state medical board regulations in Oklahoma, Wisconsin, Alabama and Virginia have to do with this conversation escapes me completely! These are all documents that govern physicians in states that do not regulate naturopathic medicine.Naturstud (talk) 15:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Well… I was just giving general examples of the regulation of the “practice of medicine”. I will cite other examples from the US states that also regulate the practice of naturopathic medicine. (trust me, they won’t be any different… but if you insist) Jwri7474 (talk) 16:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

"A naturopathic doctor may not: D. Practice or claim to practice medicine .. surgery, osteopathy, dentistry, podiatry, optometry, chiropractic, physical therapy or any other system or method of treatment not authorized in this chapter.[28] Is that enough? (I can try and get more if need be) Jwri7474 (talk) 10:22, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

• Hell no it is not enough. I mean - congrats on finding a relevant document (Maine actualy regulates NDs), and double congrats on finding someone whose understanding of the word medicine is almost as narrow as your own, but your assertion that the way they do it in Maine is representative of the way that they do it everywhere is a non-starter. Naturstud (talk) 15:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

• The article is already overloaded with legal details of this kind. Since these are complex legal issues which relate to numerous specific jurisdictions, each with their own changing legal codes and professions, all this detail should be spun off into a separate article so that this article can focus upon the content of this form of medicine. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I have no issues with that decision.. as long as the article is not written in a way as to mislead readers that naturopathic doctors (CNME accredited or not) are equal to medical doctors or that they "practice medicine" or that they "perform surgery" and the like. If the legal information is taken out but these statments are left in... then it would appear that this is the normal practice of a naturopathic doctor and this is not the case. Thanks. Jwri7474 (talk) 11:32, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Jwri, I still do not see anything in the article that states that "NDs and MDs are equvalent". NDs do practice medicine - naturopathic medicine to be more precise, and once again, I can not see anything in the article that might confuse the reader. Your opinion that naturopathic medicine is not a legitimate form of medicine is now perfectly clear. I can appreciate how someone holding such an opinion would want the word 'medicine' to be reserved for those with conventional, orthodox allopathic training. Hoping for a thing, sadly, does not make it so. I can also understand how you would want to take every opportunity to point out that naturopathic medicine and NDs are not the same as allopathic medicine and MDs. For the rest of us, the first sentence of the article makes it perfectly clear:

"Naturopathic medicine (also known as naturopathy, or natural medicine) is a complementary and alternative medicine"

...and taking every opportunity in the article to point out that NDs are not MDs is as distracting as it is unnecesary. Further, it could be argued that mentioning that NDs are not MDs ad nauseum is a shrewd way of pushing the POV that NDs are inferior to MDs.

I didn’t say they were inferior. I simply said they weren’t the same thing. I’m sorry that you can’t understand that if you wear a white coat and tell your patients that you are their “doctor” and that you are a “physician” who went to “medical school” and “practice medicine” without prefacing these words with the identifier “naturopathic”… that yes.. they might in fact be under the impression that you are an MD or DO. It is also may I remind you for the 100th time that it is not my opinion I am asserting, but the state law. Jwri7474 (talk) 16:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Well. if there was any doubt about your tendancy to exagerate (your knowledge of the laws of 'all states' for example) you have cleared it up: 100th time indeed! You are stating an opinion, and not one that seems to be relevant to the article as far as I can tell. Please present an example in the article that is confusing, or find a notable verifiable source suggesting that there is a serious problem out there with NDs impersonating MDs, and by all means put it in the article. Naturstud (talk) 16:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I still don't understand your use of the word 'equal', by the way. Is an endocrinologist equal to a dermatologist? Is a banker equal to an accountant? Who has better qualifications, a lawyer or an airline pilot? A dermatologist or a cardiologist? It seems to me you are using the term 'equal' to mean 'as good as' or 'as valuable as'. I suggest that the article avoid such judgments. May I make myself clear: it is not the job of the article to judge NDs as holding the same value, more value or worse value than MDs. Once again, if you have a specific concern please point to where you think the article is implying such a judgment, and we can deal with it. Naturstud (talk) 15:21, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I use the terms equal in regards they are not equal to allow for the “practice of medicine” as defined by the state board of medicine. An MD, MBBS, MBChB, DO, etc are all considered equivalent degrees in medicine and as such are allowed to apply for a license to “practice medicine” in each US state. You as an ND are not. In this regard they are not equal. Not inferior. Different. Simple as that. Jwri7474 (talk) 16:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Would you have a problem with an MD who went around telling his patients he was a "naturopathic physician" in one of the 15-16 states that regulate your profession? I'm sure you would. Equally, in every US state... you cannot go around advertising yourself as a "physician" or as someone who "practice medicine" without preceding these terms with the identifier "naturopathic". Equally these are protected titles which you may not use. Jwri7474 (talk) 16:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Congrats again, this time on finding a hair so small to split, I'm not even sure that it is there. Naturopathic doctors are not eligible to apply to an allopathic state board for an MD license, is that really your point? No surprise there, and no great loss there either. By the way, MDs are not eligible to apply to a state naturopathic board for an ND license either. Your entire argument seems to hinge on the MD license having more value than the ND license. That, and the facile semantic argument that NDs are legally required to use the term 'naturopathic' before the word 'medicine' ergo ND's do not 'practice medicine'. Of course, it is the ethical duty (and almost always the law) for an ND to use the word 'naturopathic' when they advertise their medical services. Such a legal obligation apllies equally to all healthcare practioners: you must always display your credentials to the public. The legal obligation to use the 'naturopathic' descriptor is *not* a legal basis to restrict the use of the word 'medicine' however. State medical boards are not the word police. As long as it is clear that we are talking about naturopaths, it is perfectly fine to discuss the medicine that they practice. This is an article about naturopathic medicine, after all. I'm still scratching my head here: What, specifically is your concern with the article? Naturstud (talk) 16:40, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

You are the only one who is using words like "inferior", and "higher value". I simply stated that the degrees were "different" and that they were not equal for the purpose of “practicing medicine”. Please stop taking this so personally. Yes, the medical board is the "word police" if you are using the title in the wrong context professionally. That is the law and they have the right to prosecute you if they wish to enforce it. Equally, if as an MD I was telling everyone I was a "naturopathic physician" the board of naturopathic medicine would have the right (in regions where the title is protected) to enforce the law. Jwri7474 (talk) 19:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

You can't expect to make a bold, inflamatory and ignorant statement like "naturopathic doctors do not practice medicine" without expecting to attract some anger from the profession that you are insulting. Protesting the 'personal' nature of my response does not make your argument any more apealing. Neither does your distorted understanding of the way that the law works: state boards of (naturopathic or alopathic) medicine are not the police, period. They do not "enforce the law" and they do not "prosecute" anyone. They govern their individual memberships (naturopathic or alopathic), not medicine itself. NDs most certainly "practice medicine". What on earth do you imagine that they are doing when they diagnose and treat disease? Seriously, what else would you call it? This truth is not altered by the fact that some jurisdictions do not recognize naturopathy, or prohibit it, or require NDs to distinguish between themselves and other healthcare providers. Your argument makes no sense. It also requires us to accept a strange and unusualy narrow definition of the word 'medicine'. Naturstud (talk) 12:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that parochial legal expressions are not appropriate here - we are writing for an international readership in lay English. Technical issues of licensing, qualification and professional status would be best discussed at Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine and we only need a general summary of the issue here. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

'Second tier' modalities

Thanks to Colonel Warden for finding some references on other modalites practiced by naturopaths. I think it would be a good idea to structure the Modalities section in some way to highlight the fact that the CNME modalities are made of standard 'core' for NDs and that also there are 'optional add-ons' (minor surgery, prescription drugs, accupuncture, child birth, IV therapy) that may or may not be availible due to practitioner preference and or local regulations. The add-ons often require require additional training.

Also, there is considerable overlap - abstention, fasting and the whole food diet are examples of a nutrition, stress managemnt fits into psycological counselling, exercise fits into physical medicine, fresh air fits under nature cure etc. Is there some way to restructure this section to present these as examples of modalities, not modalities per se?

Iridology is the odd man out. It is very controversial, not allowed in the CNME curriculum. I would like to see a good ref stating that this is a common modality used by Naturopathic Doctors, otherwise, I think it counts as 'fringe'. Naturstud (talk)

• Our article on Iridology mentions naturopaths and the cited sources also associates the two too. I'm not trying to smear the subject - just trying to be comprehensive. My concern is that the CNME, worthy as it may be, should not be allowed to constrain our coverage of the topic to the exclusion of modalities used in the past or in other countries. If there are notable heresies for particular factions then we can say so. Orthodox medicine has plenty of skeletons in its cupboard and naturopathy can stand comparison in this respect, I fancy. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

In the interest of being comprehensive, I have no problem with mentioning Iridology or other questionable practices that mainstream NDs avoid - but can we find away in the modalities section to indicate the diference between the more orthodox CNME core and the relative fringe activties practiced in unregulated jurisdictions?

Also - perhaps the reference that goes with iridology has gotten messed up, but as it stands it points to an ad for a book about CAM - the ad does not claim anywhere that iridology is in fact a naturopathic modality. Likewise the Iridology article does not have a reference for this claim either. Your other reference - the Encyclopedia of Cmplementary Health Practice - does not mention Iridology at all. Could you either provide a reference or a cite tag if this is something you know for a fact to be true. If you aren't sure, I vote for removing it all together. Naturstud (talk) 18:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

• I have added another source for iridology along with more modalities. The source, Profile of a Profession: Naturopathic Practice, seems to be a good survey of the subject in the US context. It may be downloaded in its entirety and contains many statistics and other material which we might use. Colonel Warden (talk) 22:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

That looks like a much better ref that the 'Dummies Guide'. I have made an attempt to integrate the info somewhat and create a division between the standard core taught to all NDs and the additional modalities that may be practiced. Naturstud (talk) 15:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

The list of modalities is quite long and extensive, why not shorten it up somewhat and start a subarticle that lists the 'treatment methods' of naturopaths? Also, is there some kind of source what demonstrates what percentage of patients receive each modality? That would be helpful as well! Soyuz113 (talk) 16:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

A resonable suggestion by Soyuz113. The difficulty is the same problem that always haunts this article. "Naturopathy/Naturopathic medicine" signifies both a regulated health profession with more or less clear set of modalities and an unregulated free-for-all with unlimited possible modalities. Since in some regions, anyone and everyone can say that they are a naturopath, it can be claimed that pretty much anything is a naturopathic modality. This is the problem that I had with adding iridology to the list of naturopathic modalities - I suspect that this is widely rejected by most NDs, but since there is a reference that someone out there uses it, it makes the list. I forsee this becoming a problem - why not psychic iridology, or urine therapy, or intercessory prayer... Unfortunately, outside of the CNME guidlines there are very few references enumerating how much each modality is actually being used. Estabilshing relevance, verifiability and notability is going to be difficult. Avoiding fringe and giving undue weight is going to be an absolute mess.

1. One possible solution is to fork out the article into the Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine article (which already exists) and a Traditional naturopath article (which does not). Under such a scheme, the present article Naturopathy could simply state the shared principles and shared history of naturopathy with links to the the Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine and Traditional Naturopathy for separate discussions of scope of practice, training, regulations and modalities used.
2. A second option is to create an internal fork within the present article, organized by content first and practitioner type second. A section on Regulation could contain subsections on NDs and TNs. A section on Modalities could contain subsections on NDs and TNs. A section on Training could conatin subsections on NDs and TNs etc.
3. A third option is to create an internal fork within the present article, organized by practitioner type first and content second. One major section for NDs describing regulation, modalities, training and scope. A second section describing TNs regulation (or lack thereof), education, scope and modalities.

All of the above three options have their pros and cons. Unfortunately, what we have right now is a hybrid of the three aproaches which makes for a pretty messy set of articles and promotes a lot of edit waring, especially where criticism or praise for one type of practitioner is misapplied towards the other. Looking forward to discussion on this. Naturstud (talk) 20:17, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

• Here's a source which discusses the problem in general terms: The Spectrum of Therapeutic Influences and Integrative Health Care: Classifying Health Care Practices by Mode of Therapeutic Action. Anyway, I took a look at the therapies offered by various NDs in AZ. One offered bee-sting therapy. Several offered prolotherapy. The former is arguable naturopathic in that it involves a substance from nature. The latter seems more debatable and to me it seems about as natural as dentistry, i.e. not much. But we shouldn't get hung up on such considerations. Naturopathy is open-ended, like orthodox medicine, and so will use any technique which seems to work and which may be considered natural. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Naturstud. I hear what you are saying regarding separating wheat from the chaff; the first thing would be to specifically identify what regions are providing doctoral level education (looks like NA so far) and then breaking down what modalities are regulated and which one's aren't. Sentences like 'uneven regulation' or 'varies by state' are appropriate qualifiers. Regarding your comment between modality and profession, I see your point. A good idea would be to look at some of major health agencies like the NIH, NHS and other national players and use those as a reliable source.

It's very, very important to separate what is considered to be acceptable to the public (i.e. mainstream) elements of naturopathy and those that would be considered fringe (irodology). Perusing other articles like Traditional Chinese Medicine and Chiropractic might be a good start to find sources that could be used in Naturopathic Medicine in this regard. For example, the effectiveness of acupuncture for knee pain should be the same regardless if its done by a TCM doctor, medical doctor or a naturopathic doctor.

I would recommend that the Osteopathic Medicine might be a good template for the article as well.

Colonel Warden, I agree that naturopathy might be open ended but we should still present the best available evidence to support or refute the various modalities used by NDs. This article has much potential to avoid the disaster truck that is currently occurring at chiropracty. Editors there (at least a few of them!) don't seem so interested in clearly distinguishing 'mainstream' practices from fringe one's and violating WP:WEIGHT by playing up pseudoscience chiro at the expense of legitimate chiro. A lot of CAM articles here in fact do that and I want to help provide a fair review of the facts! Soyuz113 (talk) 23:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)