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October 20

Grammatical gender

In languages that use grammatical gender, in the case of animals whose name exists only as one sex, how are you supposed to refer to an individual of that animal of the opposite sex? February 15, 2009 (talk) 00:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I cannot think of any examples, but I would say the normal way would be to say 'a male [animal]' or 'a female [animal]', and any adjectives, etc., that came with it would agree grammatically with the [animal], and not change according to the actual physical gender of the animal in question.--ChokinBako (talk) 00:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the way it works in German. The word for snake is Schlange, which is feminine. A male snake would be "eine männliche Schlange", which is still a feminine noun, so pronouns referring back to it would also be feminine. Another possibility would be "ein Schlangenmännchen" (a snake-male), which as a diminutive is automatically neuter, so pronouns referring back to it would also be neuter. But it's more common to have a word that covers one sex as well as the animal in general (e.g. Katze = female cat but also cat in general) and then a separate word to refer to the opposite sex (e.g. Kater = tomcat). And animal names that are generically masculine can almost always be made feminine by adding the suffix -in (e.g. Hund = male dog/dog in general → Hündin = female dog; Frosch = male frog/frog in general → Fröschin = female frog). Animals whose generic form is neuter, like Pferd "horse" and Schwein "pig" usually have separate names for both sexes, like Hengst "stallion"/Stute "mare" or Eber "boar"/Sau "sow". Ente "duck" and Gans "goose" are both feminine; they take a special ending -erich to make the masculine: Enterich "drake", Gänserich "gander". I don't think that ending is actually productive beyond those two words, though I've heard it used jokingly in words like Schlangerich "male snake", Bienerich "male bee". —Angr 05:56, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

What he said. I poked around in my head to come up with an animal name such as you suggested in my mothertounge, and came up with this: commonplace animals, as a rule, have names for both sexes (like deer-doe or some others in English), the ones that don't have name pairs are either insects or such, or less commonplace, like, say, giraffe or dinosaur, and for these you would just add 'male' or 'female'. TomorrowTime (talk) 05:49, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Your "What he said" (meaning Angr) shows how good English is at concealing our own genders. Strawless (talk) 13:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

And yet, he guessed correctly, probably realizing that male Wikipedians disproportionately outnumber female ones. —Angr 14:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Angr's comment wasn't published yet when I was answering - my answer went to ChokinBako :) But Angr elaborated nicely on what I wanted to say. TomorrowTime (talk) 23:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

In Czech, it works similarly to German, with one difference: the generic words used for male and female (samec, samice) are nouns rather than adjectives. Example: had (a snake) is a male noun; a female snake is samice hada (lit. a female of a snake) or hadí samice (lit. a snaky female). Consequently, the whole noun phrase is headed by the word for male or female, and therefore its grammatical gender agrees with the physical gender, not with the grammatical gender of the word for the animal in question. — Emil J. 15:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting. Have you got any ethymology data on had? In southern Slavic languages it's either zmija or a variant thereof, which essentially means "female dragon" or the Slovene kača, which I'm not entirely certain where it comes from - I could check my ethymology dictionary and post data here if there is some interest. TomorrowTime (talk) 23:09, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

TT, Czech had is connected with Church Slavonic gadŭ ("reptile, harmful animal"). From the same source is Polish, Russian, and Serbo-Croatian gad ("reptile, anything loathsome"), and OHG quāt ("filth"; cf NHG kot). Source: A Dictionary of Selected Synonyms in the Principal Indo-European Languages, Carl Darling Buck, 1949, 3.85 "Snake".

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:16, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Czech also has the word zmije, but with a narrower meaning, it means "viper". — Emil J. 09:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh wow, Slovene does indeed have gad, but it means "viper" (Vipera berus). And I never once made the connection to the Serbo-Croatian "gadno", an adverb meaning "nasty", "loathsome". TomorrowTime (talk) 10:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Glad to be the agent of an epiphany, TT. At the risk of overdoing the pedantic-didactic mode, I will point out two things:

1. It's etymology, with no h. An easy error to make, in a quick posting. :)

2. S-C gadno is the neuter form of an adjective, and therefore can function as an adverb as well; as an adjective we would translate it as "nasty", but as an adverb as "nastily".

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 11:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Not at all, your corrections are welcome. To be frank, I've always had problems distinguishing between adjuncts and adjectives :blush: - not in using them, but in descriptions of grammar. And my school days are pretty far away now... TomorrowTime (talk) 12:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Chinese doesn't mark gender on most animals in their basic terms. However, if you want to specify the gender of the animal, you usually use 公 and 母 to mark male and female respectvely. Northern varieties (including Mandarin) put it before the animal word, southern varieties tend to put it after. Steewi (talk) 00:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Like Hungarian and several other languages, Chinese (Putonghua, at least) may be said to have just one word for he, she, and it: tā, in pinyin. In the 1910s there was much agonising among Chinese scholars about the status of the language as an advanced vehicle of civilised culture. To bring it more into line with the perceived greater prestige of inflected languages, like most Indo-European languages, different written forms were devised to distinguish the three genders. As a result current Chinese has 祂 ("he"), 她 ("she"), and 牠 or 它 ("it"). Plural forms are affected also, so that tāmen now has different forms also; for example 她們, or 她们 in simplified characters ("they" [all feminine]). The spoken language is unaffected, except that forms with 牠 "it" might sometimes artificially be used when the objective "it" would normally be unexpressed. Current speakers appear not to know this history or this motivation. A question of some interest arises: should we say that Chinese now has separate words for he, she, and it? Is a non-arbitrary answer possible? The Chinese tend to think in terms of written forms more than spoken forms, for deep linguistic, historical, and cultural reasons. So a Chinese student of linguistics and I preferred different answers, when I raised the question with her (even before I knew the history outlined above).

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 03:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello Noetica. Nice to see you back, amazing us all with your knowledge. Gwinva (talk) 07:33, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Gwinva - once first among my dear co-editors here! Why have I stayed so long away? I hardly know, myself. Take this as a public affirmation that I intend to communicate privately with you soon. Can I be believed? I hope so...    

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 11:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Also with Japanese, gender is not marked with animals. If you want to specify, you would use 雄 and 雌, completely different characters from those used in Chinese. In the same way, though, they are placed before the noun. Thus, 雄牛 is 'bull', while 雌牛 is 'cow'. 牛 on its own can be either of the two in English, depending on context, but in English would be translated as 'cow' when the gender is unknown. Which brings me to an interesting question. In languages which specify gender for animals, which word is used for the generic animal. Is it one of the two gender-specific words (mentioned above: Hund - male, but also means dogs in general; Katze - female, but means cats in general; and now the English 'cow' - female, but means all bovine creatures)?--ChokinBako (talk) 10:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, in German at least, for some animals (e.g. dog, lion, tiger, donkey, wolf, bear, fox) the masculine is the generic form, for others (e.g. goose, duck, cat, mouse, snake) the feminine is the generic form, and for still others the generic form is neuter and there are separate words for the male and the female (cow, pig, horse, chicken). An interesting case is "sheep": it's neuter and is the generic form; there's a separate masculine word for "ram", but there is no feminine word meaning "ewe". If you want to specify that a sheep is female you have to just say "female sheep" or "mother sheep". —Angr 20:04, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

That is very interesting, that. Especially considering 'ewe' is a Germanic word, and according to this dictionary, there is a German dialectical word 'Aue' (it doesn't say the dialect, though, or whether it is past or present). All my other dictionaries say 'Mutterschaf', as you say.--ChokinBako (talk) 09:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

spanish or apache languauge translation

could you please tell me the spanish and apache indian translation for : LIKE THE WIND : Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.59.24.158 (talk) 01:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

They are two entirely different languages. Spanish would be Como el viento. Grsz^Review! 01:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, 'gusta el viento', depending on context.--ChokinBako (talk) 10:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding a context in which the latter would make sense on its own. Remember that in a sentence such as "me gusta el viento", it's the wind that is the subject, and a literal, word-by-word translation would be "me pleases the wind", i.e. "the wind pleases me". --NorwegianBlue ^talk 19:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

There are several Apache languages. Strawless (talk) 13:40, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

debate judge vocabulary

can anyone tell me some debate judges should say? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.45.169.44 (talk) 16:01, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, but your meaning is not clear at all. Are you looking for the word 'judgement'? Strawless (talk) 16:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Assume he means judges of academic debate competitions. AnonMoos (talk) 19:51, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If he's Irish, he'll probably be thinking of the judges of the Irish Times National Debating Championship. Even so, I still do not understand the question! Strawless (talk) 20:52, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

---

I misread the question at first as "can anyone tell me some things debate judges should say"? ie if you're judging debates, what vocabulary should you use? (hence the title). My answers:

• Eloquent
• Cogent
• Persuasive
• Fuddled
• Unclear

Any more suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.161.108 (talk) 22:34, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

That's what I thought he meant too, when I wrote my reply... AnonMoos (talk) 23:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

October 21

What does one call the term that causes the emergence of a complementary retronym?

When the term "electric guitar" became nearly as popular as the original unmodified word "guitar", the term "acoustic guitar" emerged because "guitar" (unmodified) was considered ambiguous. "Acoustic guitar" is labeled the retronym. What is "electric guitar" labeled?

Certainly, both "electric guitar" and "acoustic guitar" are neologisms. But I think it would be useful to have a word to denote the neologism ("electric guitar") that caused the retronym to come into being. I looked around and didn't find any such word. Before I coined one myself, I wanted to make sure that there wasn't one already out there. So I am asking here.

Thanks. --Nick (talk) 03:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

electric g. is the top neo log, acoustic g. the bottom neo log? terrible joke, i know--Radh (talk) 07:42, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

There must be stacks of similar examples but I'm racking my brain to think of one. In the classical world, there's no need to disambiguate "guitar", because works are almost always written for acoustic guitars, and that's the default assumption. Occasionally, composers include an electric guitar in an orchestra, and in that case it's spelled out. Electronic keyboards have become so common in popular music that I wonder if people ever feel the need to refer to a traditional piano as an "acoustic piano". (I'm just waiting for the day when someone refers to Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto as "Concerto No. 3 for Acoustic Piano and Orchestra by Sergei Rachmaninoff".) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

JoO, do you mean artistic musical composer Rachmaninoff's Musical Concerto numerically No. 3 for Aurally Acoustic Instrumental Piano and Combined Musical Instrumental Orchestra? I epistemically know it well enough, but approvingly like his numerical number 2 better.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How remiss of me, Noetica; of course that was what I meant! Maybe I was just coming out of a hypnotic trance.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 00:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what they're called either but I can certainly think of two examples used in Texas (where I grew up): "snow skiing" (to distinguish it from "water skiing", which is often called simply "skiing" there) and "hot tea" (to distinguish it from "ice tea", which is often called simply "tea" there). —Angr 06:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Compare field hockey, which is apparently what Norteamericanos call what the rest of the English-speaking world refers to as hockey. And compare ice hockey, which is what the rest of the English-speaking world calls what Norteamericanos refer to as hockey. (See Hockey. Hokay?)

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Going back to the world of music, I once heard someone on TV being asked what their hobbies and interests were. He said "Oh, I really love music, I have it on all the time <yada yada>. I also like listening to classical music when I'm in the mood". -- JackofOz (talk) 09:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

When a newly fashionable word, a loan word or something is used, the normal word in a culture suddenly looks old fashioned: chill-out for ruhen, Kids for Kinder, Kietz for Stadtteil. There might be a linguistic term for that?--Radh (talk) 11:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks all. I'm more confident that there is no existing word, so I think I'm going to coin one on my blog. See my similar question (and the two neologisms that are my current front runners) at alt.english.usage: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/b5af8adbc86cbaae/20261279ee832707?#20261279ee832707 . --Nick (talk) 04:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Latin initials

What do the initials "P.f." and "L.n." stand for in Latin names? For example:

• P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Lentulus
• L(ucius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Dolabella
• P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Scipio Africanus
• P(ublius) Ventidius P.f. Bassus
• P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. Pn. Scipio

(None of those articles say anything, by the way.) — The Man in Question (sprec) · (forðung) 08:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Answered on the Humanities desk. It means "Publii filius" and "Lucii nepos", i.e. "son of Publius" and "grandson of Lucius". Adam Bishop (talk) 11:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The Romans had a way of abbreviating many praenomina to one or two letters -- and Gaius was abbreviated to "C" (for reasons having to do with the early history of the Latin alphabet), which has given rise to the pseudo-form "Caius" (something which is pretty much guaranteed to be bogus wherever it occurs, other than in the name "Gonville and Caius", where it's actually just a fancy-shmancy pseudo-Latinate way of spelling "Keyes")... AnonMoos (talk) 12:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Frequency of Initial Letters of the Alphabet worldwide & on wikipedia

I am interested in finding out the frequency of initial letters of the alphabet used in words in various languages worldwide on the internet.

Some information is available for English, for example on wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_analysis) BUT this only covers the general frequency of the letters NOT the frequency of initial letters in English.

It does refer to a web page here (http://pages.central.edu/emp/LintonT/classes/spring01/cryptography/letterfreq.html) which provides general frequencies and also the 10 most frequent initial letters:

Start of Word Letter Frequencies Letter t a i s o c m f p w Freq 0.1594 0.155 0.0823 0.0775 0.0712 0.0597 0.0426 0.0408 0.04 0.0382

From this several questions:

1) Is it true Wikipedia does not have info on the frequency of initial letters In English (ie I would like to initial frequencies of ALL 26 letters not just the top 10 in English) ?

2) You article has some interesting comparisons on general letter frequencies across several languages, any idea where I might find a similar comparison for initial letters?

3) My ultimate goal is to investigate the frequencies of ALL initial letters in ALL languages used on the internet. Sounds like a BIG project right? But maybe there is a way to arrive at an approximation for wikipedia... ie what are the most common Initial letters in ALL articles on wikipedia in ALL languages used on wikipedia and their frequencies? This would provide a data set for Wikipedia which would be interesting and might reflect the frequencies on the web in general...

Anyway, not sure if there is someone out there who can help with this or knows the answers, but I thought I would try as these are some interesting questions you may be able to shed light on.

If so I would be very curious to know the answers.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Careyz (talk • contribs) 14:21, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Calling all linguists... Does anyone have any thoughts, leads, or feedback on this question? Inquiring minds want to know...

A particular apostrophe problem

There is a UK Government Department called the Department for Children, Schools and Families. What is the correct way of showing this in the possessive? Is it acceptable to write e.g. "The Department for Children, Schools and Families' logo is colourful"? This makes it 'look' as though the logo belongs to plural families. Writing "The Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo is colourful," looks plain odd. There is a clear way around this ("The logo of the Department for Children, Schools and Families is colourful.") But in more complex (or just different) sentences this might be an unappetising formula. So if an apostrophe is the right way to go, where should it go? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.195 (talk) 14:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

In formal writing you would avoid it and use the "of" formation. In informal usage you can do it exactly as you suggested. It only looks odd because you don't often form possessives of phrases that long. But possessives of phrases that long's formation is just like possessives of anything else. (Grin.)

Since possessives of singulars ending in S can take either a 's ending or a bare apostrophe (boss' and boss's are both correct), and "The Department of..." is singular, another choice is to put 's at the end: "The Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo..." Personally, even though I normally use the 's form, I think this looks hideous. --Anonymous, 16:47 UTC, October 21, 2008.

I'm not sure what you mean by:

• "The Department for Children, Schools and Families' logo is colourful"? This makes it 'look' as though the logo belongs to plural families. (my bolding)

"Families" is already plural. Adding an apostrophe to the end makes it a possessive, not a sort of super-plural. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The possessive does not belong to "Families", it belongs to "Department for Children, Schools and Families"; just as in "the King of Spain's daughter", it is the King who has a daughter, not Spain. The questioner's problem is that this seems less obvious for the longer example with a plural final element.

Taking a slightly simpler example of the same type, Google "and the * first album" and pick professional-quality matches:

• Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers’ first album Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
• Bob Marley and the Wailers' first album New York Times
• Siouxsie And The Banshees' first album The Guardian
• Sioux and The Banshees’ first album Popular Music (Cambridge University Press)

so the convention seems indeed to be to form the possessive of the noun phrase by forming the possesive of its final noun. This more-or-less matches the Chicago Manual of Style, §7.25:

In compound nouns and noun phrases the final element usually takes the plural form. If plural compounds pose problems, opt for of.

jnestorius^(talk) 22:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Rewriting to sidestep such a problem is usually (though not always) an option. Nevertheless the problem still demands a solution, if only for theoretical completeness. The article Apostrophe deals pretty thoroughly with these matters, I think. I cannot agree that The Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo is a realistic option. Written form should follow spoken form, and for that reason I reject also my boss' demands are reasonable unless one would actually say that.

Here is an interesting case. Suppose there were a band called Mommy and Me. We would not want say:

• Mommy and My new drummer.

We would say:

• Mommy and Me's new drummer.

Another one, with a band called Theirs and Ours. Which would we say, and write? This:

• Theirs and Ours' new lead guitar.

Or:

• Theirs and Ours's new lead guitar.

Or:

• Theirs and Ours new lead guitar.

To sidesteppers I issue this challenge: suppose that you had simply to write from dictation, without any alteration, the spoken words Theirs and Ours new lead guitar. You do have to supply appropriate punctuation! The apostrophe in English is not omnipotent, and some cases have no comfortable solution. Why should we expect it to be otherwise?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks all for the comments, and sorry if my original question caused some confusion. I have asked colleagues here what they would say (out loud) and almost all - save one oddball - said "families" not "families's", as it were. So I'll take that as my answer. Of course, in writing, the convention of referring to Gvt departments by initials - so "DCSF" - helps too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.195 (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Symbols on Wiki globe

Are all the symbols correct on the Wiki globe?

-- Wavelength (talk) 14:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Apparently not. The symbol labelled as ה (he) on the chart actually shows ר (resh). Neither fulfills the demand that it be "a symbol used for the first letter of Wikipedia in a language or character set", as Wikipedia is called ויקימדיה in Hebrew and װיקיפּעדיע in Yiddish, both of which start with the letter ו (vav). — Emil J. 15:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, the symbol labelled as В does not remotely look like one. It seems to me to come from some Indian or other south Asian script. — Emil J. 15:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC) It could be Kannada (kn): ವಿಕಿಪೀಡಿಯ. — Emil J. 15:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Continuing with the Semitic examples, the symbol labelled by a يا ligature in a fancy font actually shows just ي, and Arabic Wikipedia "ويكيبيديا" starts with a و. Similarly for Persian (fa). — Emil J. 15:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Japanese ワィ would be pronounced 'wai', but this character combination (with the small イ) is impossible. If the イ was normal size it would be 'wai'. The Wikipedia one is purely fictional. 'Wi' should be 'ウィ'.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

For added info: The nrm Wikipedia starts with "v" in one dialect, and with "ou" in another dialect (a digraph). The Jade Knight (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

And Occitan does not use "o", but "w". This makes the Norman Wikipedia (in Jèrriais dialect), the only Wikipedia (so far mentioned) to start with O (in the form of the digraph "Ou"). The Jade Knight (talk) 19:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

And the Klingon Wikipedia was shut down years ago. jnestorius^(talk) 22:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

You might try on Image talk:Wikipedia-logo-en.png or meta:International logo contest/Final logo variants/Nohat; or even on User talk:Nohat, the user who created it (no longer very active). jnestorius^(talk) 22:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I just realized that there is a detailed discussion of the logo on WP:Wikipedia logos, which in particular implies that the description given in the image posted by Wavelength is wrong, it is an outdated attempt by somebody to decipher the logo, and should not be taken seriously. A discussion of errors in the logo can be found in meta:Errors in the Wikipedia logo, and a proposed fix at Image:Wikipedia-logo thue.png. — Emil J. 10:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Apropos of nothing... but it strikes me as strange that no-one has ever seemed to have pointed out the striking similarity between the Wikipedia logo and the album design for Do It Yourself (The Seahorses album). Nanonic (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm ... very interesting. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

الموسيقى

'لو سمحتو ضروري اعرف جواب هذا السؤال ما هو الفرق بين السماعي الثقيل و البشرف ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ من فضلكم تجاوبوني بسرعة ايضا اريد تعريف كل من الدف و الرق و المزهر ان لم اخطأ في كتابتهم ..... واذا هنالك فرق بينهم ما هو الرجاء الاجابة باقصي سرعة شكرا شكرا' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayf (talk • contribs) 20:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps. But can you re-phrase the question?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The section header is "Music" (al-muusiiqaa), but the question is not easy for me to understand, and Google Translate doesn't help too much (except of course, the final two words, شكرا shukran previously discussed here). AnonMoos (talk) 03:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

October 22

word derivation/history

I'm trying to find the origin of the name KENMORE. It appers in a large number of products & places, but I have been unable to find anything on its origin.

Dave, (former student of Kenmore High School) < email removed to prevent spam > —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.122.89 (talk) 02:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The original Kenmore is in Scotland. The etymology is Scots Gaelic for "large headland". FiggyBee (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Since you mention "products", see also Kenmore Appliances. —Tamfang (talk) 03:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Spanish translation

Could someone tell me what 'viéndose' means? Google translate returns 'to be', but I don't see where this is coming from- what does it mean? 70.162.28.222 (talk) 04:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Coming from ver meaning "to see", when you add the -endo it makes it progressive like english -ing. Se is a direct object for el...so put it all together and roughly you get "he's being seen". Grsz^Review! 05:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Or [he is] seeing himself [in the mirror], or he is seeing [=finding] himself [in a difficult position], etc. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 18:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Grsz11's statement that "se is a direct object for él is a bit off: the ordinary object form of él is lo, se is the reflexive object, used (for all genders and numbers) when the object is the same as the subject – or when the subject is unspecified; as Grsz11 hints, in Romance languages the reflexive form very often has a passive meaning. Note that viéndose is not a finite verb unless it has an auxiliary (something like está viéndose, "he is being seen"); without that, it would be used in a subclause to show context: "(while or because of) being seen..., he [does something]." —Tamfang (talk) 03:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It could have the meaning "seeing each other" as well. It can be reflexive or mutual. Steewi (talk) 05:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Parental warning

In what English words do parents usually tell their children "This is not suitable for you." (E.g. alcoholic beverages, brutal/horror/sensual movies...)? --KnightMove (talk) 09:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"That's for grownups only"? The exact wording and vocabulary probably depends on the age of the children. —Angr 09:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thx. Age? Hmmm... say 8-10 years. --KnightMove (talk) 10:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"You're too young." "Maybe when you're older." "That's not for children." --bodnotbod (talk) 18:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"That is not appropriate for you."Thomprod (talk) 16:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Writing on Indian Rocket Chandrayaan-1 (Hindi)

In this video http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7680865.stm you can clearly see the writing on the Indian moon rocket. I am pretty sure it says "PSLV C-11" as Pee-es-el-vee then se-11. What I am not sure about is the character used for the "e" of es and el. I would have expected ऐ, but it is clearly something different. What is the character, and why is ऐ not used? Sorry for this ignorant question, my total knowledge of Hindi is from the first two lessons of a teach yourself book.

Also, why give it an English name, take the initials and then represent them phonetically in Devanāgarī? I know this is bordering on a cultural rather than a language question, but why not just name it in Hindi? -- ~~

It's ए, which is /e/, as opposed to ऐ, which is /ɛ/. I'm afraid I can't answer your "why" questions, though. —Angr 10:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the image (low res screen shot, fair use) Image:Chandrayaan.jpg. It doesn't look like ए, which would I have thought made "es" "el" sound a bit like "ace ale"! Of course I am so inexperienced with Devanāgarī that I am not familiar with all the alternative forms and styles. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you can't use fair-use images outside of article space, but if you look closely and use a bit of imagination you can see it's ए. You're right about the pronunciation, though; that's why I said I can't answer the "why" part! —Angr 11:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, with a bit of imagination I can see it! I will "bend" the rules and leave the image up for a while to see if anyone can answer the "why" -- Q Chris (talk) 11:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

As for the 'why' part... it is not necessarily an English 'name'. As you already know, it is the Hindi transliteration of the letters 'PSLV' which is the original name of the rocket. You question begs the counter-question, 'why give it another name when it already has one?'--ChokinBako (talk) 11:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand that PSLV stands for the English name [Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle]. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Right, so I'm sure they couldn't really write all that in Hindi on the small space where the sign is, so they opted for the initials - the name of the vehicle.--ChokinBako (talk) 11:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

But couldn't they have given it a Hindi name and then labelled it using the initial Devanāgarī characters? Is that something that is done in Hindi? Or could it be "publicity" factors, like giving it a name that is easily usable in the Western press? -- Q Chris (talk) 11:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

My contact in Bangalore has told me that acronyms do exist in India, though they use a whole syllable from each word rather than a letter. —Tamfang (talk) 03:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes that makes sense because devanagari is syllable based -- Q Chris (talk) 06:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

As are most of the scripts used in India. —Tamfang (talk) 01:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

That possibly is the reason. I mean, if it's already called Chandrayaan, why not call it Chandrayaan? I see your point.--ChokinBako (talk) 11:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In India, by the way, the language used for scientific studies or research is English, and this is probably the reason why the vehicle has an English name, not just because of Western media. 'Chandrayaan' will be a nickname, like 'Challenger' or whatever for the shuttle. 'PSLV' actually states the purpose of the rocket, and, being scientific, is in English. Also, bear in mind, Hindi is not the only language in India. There are many more, so a lingua franca is needed. English, Hindi, and Sanskrit are the three official languages, with English doubling as the language of higher education. --ChokinBako (talk) 11:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I realise that official language is a complex issue in India, Official languages of India shows that it it is not at all clear cut. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Chandrayaan is the lunar orbiter, whereas PSLV is the rocket which launched it into space. They are not the same thing, that's why they need different names. — Emil J. 13:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - that's interesting

Help with a Latin language British title

Am I right in thinking "Rex Britanniae" means king of Britain. If so what is "British monarch" in Latin? Thanks, --217.227.78.76 (talk) 12:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about "Rex Britanniae". "British monarch" is presumably "monarchus Britanniae". —Angr 12:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Or if you really prefer "British" to "of Britain", "monarchus Britannicus". Adam Bishop (talk) 13:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Literally, yes, of course, but it can also depend on the context. When Æthelbald of Mercia styled himself Rex Britanniae, which he did at least once, he meant more by it than his plain title of Rex Merciorum or his bolder one of Rex Suthanglorum. It translated Bretwalda, but the reality of that title was roughly 'King of England'. However, when George I of Great Britain is called Rex Britanniae (or Rex Britanniae et Hiberniae), it translates into English as 'King of Great Britain' (or 'King of Great Britain and Ireland'). Strawless (talk) 15:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Latin question 2

What is Edward the Confessor known as in latin? Our latin wikipedia says "Eduardus Confessor", is that correct? What is "The Confessor" in Latin? Thanks for your help! ;) --217.227.73.158 (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the Latin Wikipedia is right. Latin has no word for "the", and the English word "confessor" is borrowed directly from Latin. —Angr 14:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What is the Chinese term "金童玉女" in English?

I am a Chinese student whose major is English,and I find it hard to translate this Chinese term into English, If I translate the term word by word, it means "Golden boy and jade girl". The term means that a boy and a girl who can match very well, just like Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake in the late 90s.I beg any great ones who can help me come up with a more native way for this term.Of course, in English.Thank you very much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eastmanxie (talk • contribs) 14:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The most common similar phrases in English would be "made for each other", or "a match made in heaven". I can't think of any English phrases which mirror the Chinese phrase more closely, except possibly to refer to the couple metonymically by the names of famous lovers; Romeo and Juliet, Posh and Becks, etc. FiggyBee (talk) 15:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Romeo and Juliet, however, are better known for being star-crossed lovers, so maybe they're not the best example of a golden boy and a jade girl. —Angr 15:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhpas the phrase Soulmate would be an appropriate translation. --Zerozal (talk) 19:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Golden couple" gets a fair number of ghits. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I had that thought too. It seems to refer mostly to famous or celebrated couples though (including a lot of sportspeople, with "golden" being less metaphorical than it otherwise might be), rather than to couples who are especially well matched. FiggyBee (talk) 22:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ack. You're right. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

A common acronym among the fanfiction community is "OTP," One True Pairing, but I'm not sure if it would apply here. bibliomaniac15 22:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In America there is "Ken and Barbie" a reference to dolls--Digrpat (talk) 16:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That usually refers to a couple that is attractive but vapid. —D. Monack ^talk 02:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

... and therefore not remotely attractive (except to some people). -- JackofOz (talk) 22:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Overlapping subsets

Aloha. I'm trying to reword a phrase in an article that has proven problematic, but my English is not the best. The current wording is of the form "A and B are the two types of C". The intended meaning is, in gonzo set theoretic terms, "For all x, if x is an element of C, x is either an element of A or B", or more precisely "A intersection B is the null set, and A union B is C".

The problem with the original wording e.g. "Big and small are the two types of dogs", is that it's also (roughly) accurate to say "male and female are the two types of dogs". So how do I express the claim "all C's are either A's or B's" in the style of an article lede, i.e. "A and B are____C"? Sorry if this is confusing, any help appreciated. the skomorokh 15:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You could say that Anarcho-capitalism and minarchism (let's use the actual article title, as precise context may make finding an appropriate wording easier) are two major factions within Libertarianism? Two main schools of thought? I don't see how the claim that "All Libertarians are either Anarchists or Minarchists" is important to the article. Just say that these are two major ideas which are in conflict. FiggyBee (talk) 15:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The point is that they are exhaustive of libertarianism, not just two factions among others. This is important as it attests to the notability of the topic, which has been in doubt. I appreciate your suggestions, but it's not what I am looking for. Regards, the skomorokh 15:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure you can say they are exhaustive of libertarianism. As libertarianism is a broad-reaching political philosophy, there are bound to be many nuanced types of libertarianism out there. To imply that there is only two exact "types" of libertarianism is to make the No true Scotsman fallacy... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't claim certainty about the precise connotations of the English words, but I think I have it right: no matter what kind of libertarian you are, you either a)believe the state is morally justified or b)do not. The claim is staked on the law of excluded middle, which if we are going to be Aristotelians about it, allows for no nuance. And on a side note, you are quite the Renaissance admin, thank you! the skomorokh 16:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How about giving it a different structure altogether? I'd suggest something like: "A fundamental division within libertarian political thought is the division between anarcho-capitalism and minarchism." It would not imply that there may not be other ways of dividing libertarians, but it would convey that this is a meaningful division and not a trivial one. Also it would leave open the question of whether a "third way" is possible, while the text of the article itself would still make it clear that essentially all libertarians are either one or the other.--91.153.157.140 (talk) 18:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You could just as easily state that libertarianism exists on a continuum, with "anarchocapitilism" being at one extreme end, and various states of allowable state-intervention (some of which could be termed "minarchism") along the continuum, all the way towards full state-socialism on the other. You could just as easily state that while some libertarians believe in no-state intervention in any aspect of life; and believe only in pure market forces as regulating social interactions, while others believe in some limited forms of state control. That makes it sound more "either-or". The problem with using obfuscatory terms like "anarchocapitalism" and "minarchism" is that they sound like very narrowly defined terms that refer to small distinct groups, and its the words themselves that hide the real nature of the binary choice: either believing in state intervention or not... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems from my reading of the articles that "minarchism", rather than being a specific ideology, is a term used by anarchists to describe all libertarians other than themselves. Thus whether it is a useful description - outside anarchist arguments - is debatable. I don't think we're going to come up with anything that would both be satisfactory to skomorokh and address the "problematic" nature of the statement, so perhaps we should just leave it for the article's talk page? FiggyBee (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I have known people who described themselves as minarchists – possibly because they were acquainted with Sam Konkin, the flaming anarchocapitalist who (i believe) coined the word! —Tamfang (talk) 03:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

how does english sound to others?

I find French a very musical language to listen to (like many others) while German, on the other hand, sounds harsh and forceful (and seemingly well suited to Adolf Hitler's speeches, if I'm allowed to say that, if not, oops, sorry to German speaking folk). How does English sound to outsiders? Are there any typical observations they tend to make? It's been emotional (talk) 18:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Braindeadism bargain basement antifascism- Hitler was an Austrian you f***.--Radh (talk) 18:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Tru dat, but he did speak The german language. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

He may have been born in Austria, but he had become a German well before but certainly by the time he became Chancellor of Germany in 1933, and even more certainly after Austria was incorporated into Germany in the Anschluss in 1938. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's probably very subjective. For instance, I don't much care for the sound of French, but I do like the sound of German, probably because I speak a little of it. 68.230.71.24 (talk) 20:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

To attempt to actually answer the question rather than debating Hitler's nationality; apparently, to other Europeans, the sounds that stand out most are the big rounded vowels ("like talking with a potato in your mouth") and the unrolled r's. So "Rar Rar Rur Rur". To people from other parts of the world, other sounds stand out (generally, the sounds that aren't found in their native language). It's considered quite a rhythmic language, less harsh than German but less flowing than French. Incidentally, Peter Sellers on the Goon Show did a very convincing facsimile of *American* English using the syllable hern. FiggyBee (talk) 21:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it's very subjective. I don't have particular feelings for French, but I find German to be a very musical language - but that's probably because I learned enough German to be able to read poetry in German, and it sounds supreme. As it does in any other language you know well enough, I presume... TomorrowTime (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You can find a lot of videos of "fake English" on Youtube by searching for it. The results probably depend on the native language of the person who is imitating it, as it will determine what different bits of English they are likely to pick up on and imitate. Steewi (talk) 05:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

And german from the south of the country and from Austria is very mellow--Radh (talk) 10:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The question from the OP is about English to others, not German to others, so I'll answer that. Being French, to me English spoken by Brits sounds like it is being spit. English spoken by Americans sound like it is being chewed. Unless it is being sung, it is not particularly musical to my ears. --Lgriot (talk) 12:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting some unusual images in my head. A little like the Schmidt Sting Pain Index. bibliomaniac15 03:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, one of Mark Twain's complaints in The Awful German Language was that German is too gentle. "Would any man want to die in a battle which was called by so tame a term as a Schlacht? Or would not a consumptive feel too much bundled up, who was about to go out, in a shirt-collar and a seal-ring, into a storm which the bird-song word Gewitter was employed to describe? And observe the strongest of the several German equivalents for explosion – Ausbruch. Our word Toothbrush is more powerful than that." That was in 1880. The wonderful polylingual glossolalia scene in The Court Jester shows that the modern "harsh" perception was well established in 1956. It's pretty easy to guess what caused that change. All I'm saying is, check the mustache on your prototypical German speaker, and watch out for stripy shirts. -- BenRG (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Not answering the OP, but BenRG nails it in his edit summary: Symphony_No._9_(Beethoven)#Vocal_parts (and the whole final movement) is one of the most musical bits of language (and pieces of music) I've ever heard. Franamax (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

To the French, English tends to sound nasal and quacking. I have read that Russians compare English to whistling and fluting. Rhinoracer (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe I've heard or read the phrase, "Italian is sung, French is spoken, English is spat, and German is vomited." I've also heard "Spanish is for lovers, French is for diplomats, and English is for Geese." I'm a native English speaker, with only a rudimentary exposure to German, French, Latin, and Inuktitut (roughly in that order and even in German I barely qualify as being a beginner) and I don't think English is a terribly pretty language. Even academic Latin, which is presumably stripped of any beauty it might have had in order to make students hate taking it, has a kind of clipped yet lilting quality to it, almost a specific meter in which it needs to be spoken, that English lacks. Matt Deres (talk) 20:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a Polish comedy movie where an airport employee is supposed to make an announcement in Polish and English. Since all of her English vocabulary consists of "mister" and "fank you", she first reads her announcement in Polish and then puts a spoonful of mashed potatoes in her mouth and pretends to talk in English. This should give you an idea what the slurred, gargling language that English is sounds like to Polish ears. As for other languages, German is often compared to a dog's barking in Poland, Czech and Slovak are considered childlishly amusing, while Russian and Italian are among the languages thought to be most melodic and beautiful. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Past tense uses of the verb "to text"

Is there agreement on how to use this relatively new verb - meaning "to send a text message" - in the past tense? I say, "I texted him last night," and, "I have texted him already," while most of my acquaintances say, "I text him last night," and "I have text him already." (Of course, I sometimes also say, "I sent him a text last night.") I think people think they can get away without the "ed" because the "t" gives something of an "-ed" sound. But it's nonsensical to me. Your views?86.139.236.224 (talk) 20:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Another argument could be that what they're actually saying is 'texed', past tense of 'tex', which is how they pronounce TXT (possibly without realising). 'kst' is a clumsy combination of sounds. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 20:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Along these lines, it could simply be back-formation; "Text" /tEkst/ gets reinterpreted as "texed", which would be a past-tense form already, making "texted" sound awkward. The Jade Knight (talk) 21:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Trying to find an analogous word, I checked a couple of online rhyming dictionaries. I didn't find a verb that rhymed perfectly with text that wasn't already a past participle. The pp of "telex" is "telexed", however. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary says "texted" (ref). The Cambridge Learners Dictionary doesn't show a past tense. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In spoken dialogue, "text" may have become normish, but in formalish writing I don't think you could get away with less than "texted", if only because "text", while it sounds like a past tense (of the verb "to tex"), does not have the form of a past tense (it lacks an -ed). -- JackofOz (talk) 22:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I use "sms" as a verb (pronounced as a word, not an initialism), with the past tense "smsd". Although it takes me so long to type a message on the damn thing that I usually just call. :) FiggyBee (talk) 22:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Texted" gets lots of google hits - such as this rather enlightening document. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Celtic/Irish/Welsh Symbolism Sign Language

Looking for possible historic reference on the V_sign that may mean anything in secret society language, and/or mythic lore stories of the Celtic region, something to do with Snakes? Like maybe something like Fang style? This is way way out there, but there was a Fred Flinstone & Barney Rubble episode where they in their Loyal Order of Water Buffalos Lodge and being members of the Loyal Order of Dinosaurs do the Peace sign, with accented Fang-Puncturing-Motion. I thought it was so funny as a kid, and just wanted to know if there were any historic significance to this cartoon art medium. Cheers. --i am the kwisatz haderach (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Try at the Social Science desk, if no one knows here. Personally, I doubt a connection. The Jade Knight (talk) 21:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

October 23

Ballots and votes

I keep hearing "Cast their ballot" instead of "Cast their vote". Is this correct? The way I see it, you can cast a vote but, unless you're throwing the piece of paper, you can't cast a ballot. Dismas|^(talk) 05:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's okay. In a lot of places, you're literally casting a paper ballot into a metal ballot box, and even in the places where it's done differently, you're still metaphorically casting your ballot. —Angr 07:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There may be a confusion between the different meanings of ballot. In Angr's example, it's the physical piece of paper the voter puts into the ballot box. If you're talking about the physical action of walking over to the box and inserting the piece of paper into the slot, that's casting a ballot. But if you're talking about the general concept of having your say, then it would be casting a vote. In other words, you can cast/have a vote by casting a ballot. Ballot also refers to the general method of choosing a representative or deciding a question, e.g. a secret ballot, which does not necessarily involve any paper ballots. If it were entirely electronic, you'd cast/have a vote by pressing a button or pulling a lever, not by casting a ballot. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Thanks both of you. I hadn't thought of the "casting it into the ballot box" form of casting. Dismas|^(talk) 13:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

And in most elections, you're dealing with more than one office or more than one issue, so you have many votes (e.g., your vote for president, your vote for senator, your vote for city councilman, your vote in the sewer-bond referendum), all of which you cast by means of the collection of choices on the ballot. --- OtherDave (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Except that, in many countries, there are separate ballot papers for each such election. jnestorius^(talk) 17:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The Casting vote article might be of interest to people in this discussion. (I'm not suggesting it answers the OP's question, just that it seems related. ) 16:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Wanderer57 (talk)

October 24

Russian spam

Lately my spam-filters see this a hundred times a day: Только наши телочки так сладко стонут... (usually with at least one misspelling). This seems to mean Only our телочки moan so sweetly; what's that one word? —Tamfang (talk) 14:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Calves. DAVID ŠENEK 16:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Calves or calves? —Angr 18:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Calves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 10:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Map of world languages

Does anyone here know of a map of the world with the countries colour-coded along the lines of Image:English-as-Official-Language.png but for multiple languages? I don't think I've seen one before but I'd like to. — maestrosync ^talk — 16:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There's Image:Human_Language_Families_(wikicolors).png (and several variants of it, I believe). -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Template for this Article needs to be copyedited by a native English speaker" ?

There is a Wiki template (or something similar) to say: this Article needs to be copyedited by a native English speaker ? I'm not English mother tongue and I would like to flag temporally an Article in order to have some other editor to check its readability (for example Lives of the Prophets I've developed from a stub). Thanks. A ntv (talk) 17:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps one of those at Wikipedia:Template_messages/Cleanup#Translation, most likely Template:RoughTranslation or Template:Cleanup-translation. You can also drop a message to an available proofreader who is proficient in your mother language (Category:Available proofreaders in Wikipedia) or leave a proofreading request on Wikipedia:Translation. Nanonic (talk) 17:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Quick question [agreement of verb with compound subject]

Is it "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) is acting silly" or "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) are acting silly"?

I thought that I could write "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) is ..." because Jack was the subject. Apparently, I'm wrong, even if I put brackets around "and his ever present sidekick John". I was thinking that because I intend John only to be incidental that I could take Jack as the subject instead of "Jack and John". 203.217.43.170 (talk) 18:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd recommend changing and to along with. Then nobody—one would think—could deny that the parenthetical material does not affect the number of the subject, and you could use is with impunity. I'd also hyphenate ever-present. Deor (talk) 18:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If John is ever-present, then he's not incidental, is he? What about "Jack and John (his ever present sidekick) are acting silly" ? --LarryMac | Talk 19:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A "parenthetic" subject is traditionally excluded from deciding the number of the subject for the purposes of agreement with the verb. What constitutes a "parenthetic" subject is fuzzy (e.g. phrases like "as well as", marking off with commas) but if it's in parentheses then it's definitely parenthetic. jnestorius^(talk) 21:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

[Ah, yes. Edit conflict with Jnestorius. I'll post it exactly as I had it anyway:]

I agree with Deor: change and to along with. That's one perfectly sound way of keeping a singular form of the verb. But the brackets complicate things, since in cases like this what's inside them ought not to affect the syntax of what's outside. Acceptable solutions therefore include these:

• Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly.
• Jack, along with his ever-present sidekick John, is acting silly.
• Jack (along with his ever-present sidekick John) is acting silly.

I have added a hyphen, and managed commas carefully. In each case another comma is possible before John, but it would clutter things needlessly.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Without wishing to gainsay the ever-correct Noetica, are the commas necessary - or even desirable - in "Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly"? The form is "A, and B, are doing X", which seems fairly non-acceptable to me. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

With all due deference to my esteemed antipodean colleague JackofOz, I point out that I wrote "acceptable solutions therefore include these". I do not claim that those commas are necessary or even desirable, in most situations in which the sentence would be deployed. But the question was put in terms of some such parenthetic structure, and there are indeed contexts in which this very interpolation would be parenthetical. Consider:

• "How is Jack behaving today?" "Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly."

See? The main point is to respond to a question about Jack; and the information about John, being a gratuitous amplification, is parenthetical.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm not convinced. If "and his ever-present sidekick John" is truly parenthetical, it would have to be "Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, is acting silly", wouldn't it? Seems to me the choices are: commas and "is", or no commas and "are". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The point is that sometimes there is a rhetorical reason for setting off part of a compound subject with commas, but doing so doesn't necessitate the use of a singular verb. As a style guide I happen to have handy (Words into Type) says, "The copy editor should not be misled by punctuation that makes a plural subject appear to be a singular subject followed by a parenthetical phrase"—an example given being "The great diversity of the risks covered, and the complex nature of the business, introduce production problems of an unusual character" (emphasis mine). Deor (talk) 00:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

JackofOz, we might distinguish semantic and syntactic parenthesis.

Brackets (or "parentheses", in the Vespuccian patois) isolate the syntax of the included material much more trenchantly than other devices. A pair of commas has little isolating effect; a pair of sentence-level dashes (em dshes, or my preferred spaced en dashes) has an isolating effect intermediate between commas and brackets.

Semantic parenthesis is a more fluid affair than syntactic parenthesis. In suggesting that and his ever-present sidekick John may in some situations be parenthetical, I mean semantically parenthetical.

Then there is prosodic parenthesis. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm ill-equipped to engage in discourse of such abstruseness, being a mere dilettante who thinks he generally knows good grammar and bad grammar when he sees them. So I won't argue any more. But I know what I'd be writing if I were writing the sentence in question, and anyone who dared question me would have a fight on their hands. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 07:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Jack and his sometimes-present sidekick Noetica do not agree on the matter! But does Jack know much about punctuation? I think that Jack, and his friend Noetica, are quite knowledgeable, really. I would even say that Jack – and of course, Noetica – is generally pretty good on these matters. One might always assume that Jack (with the Great Noetica) is always worth listening to. Gwinva (talk) 08:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

[Gwinva! I said I would contact you, not edit conflict with you! Anyway, clever self-referential use of parentheses. Or should that be self-parenthetical use of references? I can't be sure any more. Still, let us bluff ever onward:]

And modest, too, JoO. I like that! :)

Actually the terminology is up for grabs. It pays to bluff, and to assume an air of authority whether it be warranted or no. (I did – a bit, at least.)

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 08:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Everyone who has posted any response other than a decisive MAKE AGREEMENT AS THOUGH THERE ARE NO PARANTHESES (AS THOUGH YOU'RE READING OUT LOUD) is WRONG. There is one and only one way to continue a sentence after you've included some parentheses: as though the things in parentheses weren't in parentheses.

It is:

• "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) are acting silly"
• "In all our storied past (and currently, and in all our foreseeable future) we shall remain..."
• "Neither you nor Jacky (nor I) am a good person to discuss this with"

It's that simple. It's a matter of the "correct" or "incorrent" answer to this question. NO EXCEPTIONS. The people above who gave a different alternative are just wrong. Period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.170.127 (talk) 23:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Life is certainly simple for the dogmatic. Deor (talk) 23:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) And your authority for this rather dubious and over-assertive assertion is ...? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Question

How can 「（日付）を以って（動詞）」 be translated? Same as 「（日付）に（動詞）」？--ChokinBako (talk) 18:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

(日付）を以って can be translated as 'as of 日付'. Oda Mari (talk) 18:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm amazed you didn't check Eijirō, the one dictionary I would take to a desert island if I was planning to do Japanese-English translation work there. It suggests "as of" or "effective". -- BenRG (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I use Eijiro all the time, lar, on www.alc.co.jp, but it only gave two examples of the use of '以って', and both translations did not seem applicable to the context of the text I am working on. Oda Mari's translation was perfect.--ChokinBako (talk) 23:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Accents of Hitchcock and Karloff

Boris Karloff and Alfred Hitchcock were born in London a few years apart, but had quite distinctively different accents, but both sound British to American ears. Was this difference of dialect or accent due to the different neighborhoods they were from, or to different social class of their parents? Is there a name for the typical British English of each of these celebrities? Karloff sounded (except when he was doing a dialect role) a bit upscale from Hitchcock.Here is a 1964 interview with Hitchcock: [1] , and here he is introducing a TV episode [2]. Here is Karloff, at 1:30 introducing a TV show:[3] , and at 2:30 [4] introducing another episode. Edison (talk) 21:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

"British English" as a term refers to the way in which the form of English used in Britain differs in spelling, vocabulary, grammar and punctuation from that used elsewhere. It shouldn't really be used to describe accents. People in Britain don't have "British accents"; they have English, Scottish, Welsh accents etc as applicable. What Americans tend to think of when they talk about a "Bridish accent" is almost invariably an English accent, either RP or some godawful version of cockney.

I'd agree that Hitchcock has a slightly lower-middle-class drawl compared to Karloff, but bear in mind that actors often undergo vocal training to speak with a kind of RADA accent, whereas directors do not. Malcolm XIV (talk) 16:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Kamikaze

Why do people insist on translating 'Kamikaze' as 'God of the Wind', when 'Kaze' is the main part of this word, therefore meaning 'Wind of the Gods'? If it was 'God of the Wind', it would be 'Kazekami'. Historically, 'Wind of the Gods' would make sense, considering it referred originally to the typhoon that repelled the Mongol invasion in the 13th Century. Any thoughts on this?--ChokinBako (talk) 23:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I've always seen it translated as "divine wind." Who are these people who translate it as "God of the Wind"? Deor (talk) 00:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I've heard people say it, and seen it on the odd TV documentary - admittedly, old ones.--ChokinBako (talk) 10:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Merchant Ships

What is the meaning of 'maru', the word that comes after the name of practically every merchant ship in Japan? One of my friends who is a sailor asked me this tonight, and I couldn't answer. 'Circle' did not quite convince him. Any ideas?--ChokinBako (talk) 23:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

For some theories, see Japanese ship naming conventions#Maru. Deor (talk) 00:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Difficult question. The oldest citation is from an 1187 text. There are a number of suggested etymologies, but no general consensus:

1. maro (麿, "I") > maru; originally used to refer to oneself, gradually changed to refer to things near oneself as a term of endearment
2. personification (again from maro (麿, "I"))
3. from maro (麿), a suffix to a boys name
4. from the word for stripped wood (maruta 丸太) used in boat construction
5. from toimaru (問丸), medieval tradesmen on boats

Nothing definite, but FYI. Bendono (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow! I can't believe it's such a mystery! Thanks!--ChokinBako (talk) 10:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

October 25

Japanese translation

I feel I understand what is being said, but I would like a second opinion. In the sentence 『CLANNAD』は自分の中でもシナリオではもう行き着くとこまで行っちゃって二度と越えられない壁になってます。 (which references Clannad) I believe it says, "Clannad has already become, among all my scenarios, an impassable wall that I will never reach again." or so. The speaker is Jun Maeda, the main scenario writer for Clannad.--十八 06:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

How about this? Inside of me, the scenario of 'Clanned' was developed to the full extent and now I found a brick wall that I could never break through. Oda Mari (talk) 06:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

That still conveys the same message, right? In that Maeda is saying he reached the limit of his writing ability with Clannad, and now he believes he'll never write something as ambitious, or more ambitious, than what he did with Clannad, right?--十八 08:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he is saying he got to a wall that I will never be able to get over again. --ChokinBako (talk) 09:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses.--十八 20:53, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

A note on masculine as default grammatical gender

I just wrote something about this, but then the section was archived from under me: see my scintillating contribution here.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 08:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation [in Charade, and in Shakespeare?]

This line from Charade has me in a quandry: "Well, wasn't it Shakespeare that said, 'When strangers do meet in far off lands, they should e'er long see each other again'?" Assuming that the "Shakespearean" line is complete, should there be a period after "again" or is there some rule against having two punctuation marks one after the other (sort of)? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Certainly nothing closely resembling that line occurs in Shakespeare. But even if it did, there would be no point in consulting such a source. Shakespearian punctuation is variable and illogical by our standards.

Anyway, no: there should not be such a period. See WP:MOS, where this is dealt with quite well.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 08:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Not relevant to your question, but that line doesn't even make sense. e'er should probably be ere. Algebraist 10:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

That line was just part of a joke (hence the quotation marks) to allow Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn the opportunity to be charming (and they are). Clarityfiend (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Kde domov muj? [Czech pronunciation]

How is "muj" pronounced? Once again, I am pretty illterate in IPA, so avoid using it. Come to think of it, where is the diacritic that's supposed to be on the u? I could only find the ring for the a, the one that looks Swedish. Vltava 68 (talk contribs) 09:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you are referring to František Škroup's song Kde domov můj? Where is the diacritic? There is the diacritic! I believe můj is pronounced /muj/! That is, like Spanish muy. The u is roughly pronounced like the u in English put, or in German Mutter.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact you can find that ů in the "Latin" options below the Edit Box:

Á á Ć ć É é Í í Ĺ ĺ Ń ń Ó ó Ŕ ŕ Ś ś Ú ú Ý ý Ź ź À à È è Ì ì Ò ò Ù ù  â Ĉ ĉ Ê ê Ĝ ĝ Ĥ ĥ Î î Ĵ ĵ Ô ô Ŝ ŝ Û û Ŵ ŵ Ŷ ŷ Ä ä Ë ë Ï ï Ö ö Ü ü Ÿ ÿ ß Ã ã Ẽ ẽ Ĩ ĩ Ñ ñ Õ õ Ũ ũ Ỹ ỹ Ç ç Ģ ģ Ķ ķ Ļ ļ Ņ ņ Ŗ ŗ Ş ş Ţ ţ Đ đ Ů ů Ǎ ǎ Č č Ď ď Ě ě Ǐ ǐ Ľ ľ Ň ň Ǒ ǒ Ř ř Š š Ť ť Ǔ ǔ Ž ž Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū Ȳ ȳ Ǣ ǣ ǖ ǘ ǚ ǜ Ă ă Ĕ ĕ Ğ ğ Ĭ ĭ Ŏ ŏ Ŭ ŭ Ċ ċ Ė ė Ġ ġ İ ı Ż ż Ą ą Ę ę Į į Ǫ ǫ Ų ų Ḍ ḍ Ḥ ḥ Ḷ ḷ Ḹ ḹ Ṃ ṃ Ṇ ṇ Ṛ ṛ Ṝ ṝ Ṣ ṣ Ṭ ṭ Ł ł Ő ő Ű ű Ŀ ŀ Ħ ħ Ð ð Þ þ Œ œ Æ æ Ø ø Å å Ə ə

And yes, můj (alternatively múj) is indeed pronounced like /muy/, but with a longish and more rounded u than the unadorned letter. (Source: Routledge Czech Grammar.)

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Does a word/phrase exist for this type of "getting caught"?

Is there a specific word or common phrase in any language for this kind of situation?

Example 1) You are a law-abiding driver and always have been. In your small town you have never seen a police car, ever, in your many years of living there. That one time you ever consider rolling through a stop sign and do it, you see the lights and sirens in your rear view window.

Example 2) You're at your office cubicle and have an itch in your nose. You think to yourself, "someone will see me if I scratch it and they'll think I'm picking my nose". You wait and wait for the itch to hopefully go away on its own. Ten minutes later, nobody has walked by your cubicle and your nose feels like it is crawling with fire ants, so you go for the gold. Within the exact same second or two that you put your finger in your nose, your boss comes around the corner out of nowhere to talk to you.

Example 3) You're playing a first-person shooter, with a sniper rifle to keep an area clear for your teammates. You keep a reputably-troublesome hallway scoped for a few minutes when you don't see any action at all there the entire time. You figure the frontline action moved forward in the game, and staring at a wall is boring, so you proceed toward that hallway to reach wherever you think your teammates are... the moment you enter the hallway and almost reach the end, a superiorly-equipped enemy comes around the corner and destroys you without blinking.

With things like the second example, I always used the word "Seinfeldian", but that's an adjective :)

Also I wonder if Statisticians have studied this phenomenon. It kind of nullifies the idea of patience being a virtue. --75.165.11.199 (talk) 17:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I remember it discussed by Scott Adams years ago, but he didn't have a name for it either. Seems to be a corollary of Murphy's law. jnestorius^(talk) 17:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

See Murphy's laws. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

sod's law ?hotclaws 07:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide

Can you please use a pronunciation guide like "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language" pronunciation guide, or at least a pronunciation guide that divides a word into syllables. All American children were taught learn the pronunciation of a new word by this means in elementary school. Please do this. The pronunciation guide that you use is difficult and it is not helpful. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.118.229.108 (talk) 18:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The AHD pronunciation guide won't be helpful to non-Americans who didn't learn it at school. IPA has the advantage of being an international standard. Moreover, any English-specific pronunciation guide will be useless at accurately describing the pronunciation of words from other languages which may have sounds that don't exist in English. If IPA is difficult for you, you may try Wikipedia:IPA and Wikipedia:IPA for English to start learning it. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Phobia name

I realise this is a bit of a silly question, but does anyone know what the Latin name would be for a phobia of dropping one's keys into the gap between a lift car and the floor? Something we'd been arguing about in the pub, but nobody knew the answer. — FIRE!^{in a crowded theatre...} 18:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, this is medical advice. Grab your car keys, hop into the elevator and drive to to your physicia - ooops, drat - walk to your physicians surgery.

Unfortunately, it will be locked as the good doctor dropped her keys into the storm water drain when she climbed into her car through the side window. The reason for her unusual boarding maneuvre can easily be guessed, but the terminology currently escapes me... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not even going to try to pretend to go Greek for this -- using Latin stems, one possibility might be Clavirimophobia (clavis, rima). AnonMoos (talk) 21:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

See The Phobia List. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

October 26

hi every one! i'm gonna start a new magazine! suggest me short stylich meaningful names of any language...............