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October 21

What does one call the term that causes the emergence of a complementary retronym?

When the term "electric guitar" became nearly as popular as the original unmodified word "guitar", the term "acoustic guitar" emerged because "guitar" (unmodified) was considered ambiguous. "Acoustic guitar" is labeled the retronym. What is "electric guitar" labeled?

Certainly, both "electric guitar" and "acoustic guitar" are neologisms. But I think it would be useful to have a word to denote the neologism ("electric guitar") that caused the retronym to come into being. I looked around and didn't find any such word. Before I coined one myself, I wanted to make sure that there wasn't one already out there. So I am asking here.

Thanks. --Nick (talk) 03:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

electric g. is the top neo log, acoustic g. the bottom neo log? terrible joke, i know--Radh (talk) 07:42, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

There must be stacks of similar examples but I'm racking my brain to think of one. In the classical world, there's no need to disambiguate "guitar", because works are almost always written for acoustic guitars, and that's the default assumption. Occasionally, composers include an electric guitar in an orchestra, and in that case it's spelled out. Electronic keyboards have become so common in popular music that I wonder if people ever feel the need to refer to a traditional piano as an "acoustic piano". (I'm just waiting for the day when someone refers to Rachmaninoff's 3rd Piano Concerto as "Concerto No. 3 for Acoustic Piano and Orchestra by Sergei Rachmaninoff".) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

JoO, do you mean artistic musical composer Rachmaninoff's Musical Concerto numerically No. 3 for Aurally Acoustic Instrumental Piano and Combined Musical Instrumental Orchestra? I epistemically know it well enough, but approvingly like his numerical number 2 better.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:09, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How remiss of me, Noetica; of course that was what I meant! Maybe I was just coming out of a hypnotic trance.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 00:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what they're called either but I can certainly think of two examples used in Texas (where I grew up): "snow skiing" (to distinguish it from "water skiing", which is often called simply "skiing" there) and "hot tea" (to distinguish it from "ice tea", which is often called simply "tea" there). —Angr 06:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Compare field hockey, which is apparently what Norteamericanos call what the rest of the English-speaking world refers to as hockey. And compare ice hockey, which is what the rest of the English-speaking world calls what Norteamericanos refer to as hockey. (See Hockey. Hokay?)

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Going back to the world of music, I once heard someone on TV being asked what their hobbies and interests were. He said "Oh, I really love music, I have it on all the time <yada yada>. I also like listening to classical music when I'm in the mood". -- JackofOz (talk) 09:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

When a newly fashionable word, a loan word or something is used, the normal word in a culture suddenly looks old fashioned: chill-out for ruhen, Kids for Kinder, Kietz for Stadtteil. There might be a linguistic term for that?--Radh (talk) 11:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks all. I'm more confident that there is no existing word, so I think I'm going to coin one on my blog. See my similar question (and the two neologisms that are my current front runners) at alt.english.usage: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/browse_thread/thread/b5af8adbc86cbaae/20261279ee832707?#20261279ee832707 . --Nick (talk) 04:42, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Latin initials

What do the initials "P.f." and "L.n." stand for in Latin names? For example:

• P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Lentulus
• L(ucius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Dolabella
• P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. L.n. Scipio Africanus
• P(ublius) Ventidius P.f. Bassus
• P(ublius) Cornelius P.f. Pn. Scipio

(None of those articles say anything, by the way.) — The Man in Question (sprec) · (forðung) 08:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Answered on the Humanities desk. It means "Publii filius" and "Lucii nepos", i.e. "son of Publius" and "grandson of Lucius". Adam Bishop (talk) 11:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The Romans had a way of abbreviating many praenomina to one or two letters -- and Gaius was abbreviated to "C" (for reasons having to do with the early history of the Latin alphabet), which has given rise to the pseudo-form "Caius" (something which is pretty much guaranteed to be bogus wherever it occurs, other than in the name "Gonville and Caius", where it's actually just a fancy-shmancy pseudo-Latinate way of spelling "Keyes")... AnonMoos (talk) 12:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Frequency of Initial Letters of the Alphabet worldwide & on wikipedia

I am interested in finding out the frequency of initial letters of the alphabet used in words in various languages worldwide on the internet.

Some information is available for English, for example on wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_analysis) BUT this only covers the general frequency of the letters NOT the frequency of initial letters in English.

It does refer to a web page here (http://pages.central.edu/emp/LintonT/classes/spring01/cryptography/letterfreq.html) which provides general frequencies and also the 10 most frequent initial letters:

Start of Word Letter Frequencies Letter t a i s o c m f p w Freq 0.1594 0.155 0.0823 0.0775 0.0712 0.0597 0.0426 0.0408 0.04 0.0382

From this several questions:

1) Is it true Wikipedia does not have info on the frequency of initial letters In English (ie I would like to initial frequencies of ALL 26 letters not just the top 10 in English) ?

2) You article has some interesting comparisons on general letter frequencies across several languages, any idea where I might find a similar comparison for initial letters?

3) My ultimate goal is to investigate the frequencies of ALL initial letters in ALL languages used on the internet. Sounds like a BIG project right? But maybe there is a way to arrive at an approximation for wikipedia... ie what are the most common Initial letters in ALL articles on wikipedia in ALL languages used on wikipedia and their frequencies? This would provide a data set for Wikipedia which would be interesting and might reflect the frequencies on the web in general...

Anyway, not sure if there is someone out there who can help with this or knows the answers, but I thought I would try as these are some interesting questions you may be able to shed light on.

If so I would be very curious to know the answers.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Careyz (talk • contribs) 14:21, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Calling all linguists... Does anyone have any thoughts, leads, or feedback on this question? Inquiring minds want to know...

A particular apostrophe problem

There is a UK Government Department called the Department for Children, Schools and Families. What is the correct way of showing this in the possessive? Is it acceptable to write e.g. "The Department for Children, Schools and Families' logo is colourful"? This makes it 'look' as though the logo belongs to plural families. Writing "The Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo is colourful," looks plain odd. There is a clear way around this ("The logo of the Department for Children, Schools and Families is colourful.") But in more complex (or just different) sentences this might be an unappetising formula. So if an apostrophe is the right way to go, where should it go? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.195 (talk) 14:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

In formal writing you would avoid it and use the "of" formation. In informal usage you can do it exactly as you suggested. It only looks odd because you don't often form possessives of phrases that long. But possessives of phrases that long's formation is just like possessives of anything else. (Grin.)

Since possessives of singulars ending in S can take either a 's ending or a bare apostrophe (boss' and boss's are both correct), and "The Department of..." is singular, another choice is to put 's at the end: "The Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo..." Personally, even though I normally use the 's form, I think this looks hideous. --Anonymous, 16:47 UTC, October 21, 2008.

I'm not sure what you mean by:

• "The Department for Children, Schools and Families' logo is colourful"? This makes it 'look' as though the logo belongs to plural families. (my bolding)

"Families" is already plural. Adding an apostrophe to the end makes it a possessive, not a sort of super-plural. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:54, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The possessive does not belong to "Families", it belongs to "Department for Children, Schools and Families"; just as in "the King of Spain's daughter", it is the King who has a daughter, not Spain. The questioner's problem is that this seems less obvious for the longer example with a plural final element.

Taking a slightly simpler example of the same type, Google "and the * first album" and pick professional-quality matches:

• Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers’ first album Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
• Bob Marley and the Wailers' first album New York Times
• Siouxsie And The Banshees' first album The Guardian
• Sioux and The Banshees’ first album Popular Music (Cambridge University Press)

so the convention seems indeed to be to form the possessive of the noun phrase by forming the possesive of its final noun. This more-or-less matches the Chicago Manual of Style, §7.25:

In compound nouns and noun phrases the final element usually takes the plural form. If plural compounds pose problems, opt for of.

jnestorius^(talk) 22:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Rewriting to sidestep such a problem is usually (though not always) an option. Nevertheless the problem still demands a solution, if only for theoretical completeness. The article Apostrophe deals pretty thoroughly with these matters, I think. I cannot agree that The Department for Children, Schools and Families's logo is a realistic option. Written form should follow spoken form, and for that reason I reject also my boss' demands are reasonable unless one would actually say that.

Here is an interesting case. Suppose there were a band called Mommy and Me. We would not want say:

• Mommy and My new drummer.

We would say:

• Mommy and Me's new drummer.

Another one, with a band called Theirs and Ours. Which would we say, and write? This:

• Theirs and Ours' new lead guitar.

Or:

• Theirs and Ours's new lead guitar.

Or:

• Theirs and Ours new lead guitar.

To sidesteppers I issue this challenge: suppose that you had simply to write from dictation, without any alteration, the spoken words Theirs and Ours new lead guitar. You do have to supply appropriate punctuation! The apostrophe in English is not omnipotent, and some cases have no comfortable solution. Why should we expect it to be otherwise?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks all for the comments, and sorry if my original question caused some confusion. I have asked colleagues here what they would say (out loud) and almost all - save one oddball - said "families" not "families's", as it were. So I'll take that as my answer. Of course, in writing, the convention of referring to Gvt departments by initials - so "DCSF" - helps too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.195 (talk) 15:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Symbols on Wiki globe

Are all the symbols correct on the Wiki globe?

-- Wavelength (talk) 14:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Apparently not. The symbol labelled as ה (he) on the chart actually shows ר (resh). Neither fulfills the demand that it be "a symbol used for the first letter of Wikipedia in a language or character set", as Wikipedia is called ויקימדיה in Hebrew and װיקיפּעדיע in Yiddish, both of which start with the letter ו (vav). — Emil J. 15:02, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, the symbol labelled as В does not remotely look like one. It seems to me to come from some Indian or other south Asian script. — Emil J. 15:10, 21 October 2008 (UTC) It could be Kannada (kn): ವಿಕಿಪೀಡಿಯ. — Emil J. 15:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Continuing with the Semitic examples, the symbol labelled by a يا ligature in a fancy font actually shows just ي, and Arabic Wikipedia "ويكيبيديا" starts with a و. Similarly for Persian (fa). — Emil J. 15:31, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Japanese ワィ would be pronounced 'wai', but this character combination (with the small イ) is impossible. If the イ was normal size it would be 'wai'. The Wikipedia one is purely fictional. 'Wi' should be 'ウィ'.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

For added info: The nrm Wikipedia starts with "v" in one dialect, and with "ou" in another dialect (a digraph). The Jade Knight (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

And Occitan does not use "o", but "w". This makes the Norman Wikipedia (in Jèrriais dialect), the only Wikipedia (so far mentioned) to start with O (in the form of the digraph "Ou"). The Jade Knight (talk) 19:08, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

And the Klingon Wikipedia was shut down years ago. jnestorius^(talk) 22:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

You might try on Image talk:Wikipedia-logo-en.png or meta:International logo contest/Final logo variants/Nohat; or even on User talk:Nohat, the user who created it (no longer very active). jnestorius^(talk) 22:47, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I just realized that there is a detailed discussion of the logo on WP:Wikipedia logos, which in particular implies that the description given in the image posted by Wavelength is wrong, it is an outdated attempt by somebody to decipher the logo, and should not be taken seriously. A discussion of errors in the logo can be found in meta:Errors in the Wikipedia logo, and a proposed fix at Image:Wikipedia-logo thue.png. — Emil J. 10:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Apropos of nothing... but it strikes me as strange that no-one has ever seemed to have pointed out the striking similarity between the Wikipedia logo and the album design for Do It Yourself (The Seahorses album). Nanonic (talk) 15:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm ... very interesting. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

الموسيقى

'لو سمحتو ضروري اعرف جواب هذا السؤال ما هو الفرق بين السماعي الثقيل و البشرف ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟ من فضلكم تجاوبوني بسرعة ايضا اريد تعريف كل من الدف و الرق و المزهر ان لم اخطأ في كتابتهم ..... واذا هنالك فرق بينهم ما هو الرجاء الاجابة باقصي سرعة شكرا شكرا' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mayf (talk • contribs) 20:15, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps. But can you re-phrase the question?

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

The section header is "Music" (al-muusiiqaa), but the question is not easy for me to understand, and Google Translate doesn't help too much (except of course, the final two words, شكرا shukran previously discussed here). AnonMoos (talk) 03:05, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

October 22

word derivation/history

I'm trying to find the origin of the name KENMORE. It appers in a large number of products & places, but I have been unable to find anything on its origin.

Dave, (former student of Kenmore High School) < email removed to prevent spam > —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.235.122.89 (talk) 02:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The original Kenmore is in Scotland. The etymology is Scots Gaelic for "large headland". FiggyBee (talk) 03:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Since you mention "products", see also Kenmore Appliances. —Tamfang (talk) 03:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Spanish translation

Could someone tell me what 'viéndose' means? Google translate returns 'to be', but I don't see where this is coming from- what does it mean? 70.162.28.222 (talk) 04:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Coming from ver meaning "to see", when you add the -endo it makes it progressive like english -ing. Se is a direct object for el...so put it all together and roughly you get "he's being seen". Grsz^Review! 05:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Or [he is] seeing himself [in the mirror], or he is seeing [=finding] himself [in a difficult position], etc. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 18:46, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Grsz11's statement that "se is a direct object for él is a bit off: the ordinary object form of él is lo, se is the reflexive object, used (for all genders and numbers) when the object is the same as the subject – or when the subject is unspecified; as Grsz11 hints, in Romance languages the reflexive form very often has a passive meaning. Note that viéndose is not a finite verb unless it has an auxiliary (something like está viéndose, "he is being seen"); without that, it would be used in a subclause to show context: "(while or because of) being seen..., he [does something]." —Tamfang (talk) 03:27, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It could have the meaning "seeing each other" as well. It can be reflexive or mutual. Steewi (talk) 05:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Parental warning

In what English words do parents usually tell their children "This is not suitable for you." (E.g. alcoholic beverages, brutal/horror/sensual movies...)? --KnightMove (talk) 09:48, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"That's for grownups only"? The exact wording and vocabulary probably depends on the age of the children. —Angr 09:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thx. Age? Hmmm... say 8-10 years. --KnightMove (talk) 10:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"You're too young." "Maybe when you're older." "That's not for children." --bodnotbod (talk) 18:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"That is not appropriate for you."Thomprod (talk) 16:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Writing on Indian Rocket Chandrayaan-1 (Hindi)

In this video http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7680865.stm you can clearly see the writing on the Indian moon rocket. I am pretty sure it says "PSLV C-11" as Pee-es-el-vee then se-11. What I am not sure about is the character used for the "e" of es and el. I would have expected ऐ, but it is clearly something different. What is the character, and why is ऐ not used? Sorry for this ignorant question, my total knowledge of Hindi is from the first two lessons of a teach yourself book.

Also, why give it an English name, take the initials and then represent them phonetically in Devanāgarī? I know this is bordering on a cultural rather than a language question, but why not just name it in Hindi? -- ~~

It's ए, which is /e/, as opposed to ऐ, which is /ɛ/. I'm afraid I can't answer your "why" questions, though. —Angr 10:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the image (low res screen shot, fair use) Image:Chandrayaan.jpg. It doesn't look like ए, which would I have thought made "es" "el" sound a bit like "ace ale"! Of course I am so inexperienced with Devanāgarī that I am not familiar with all the alternative forms and styles. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you can't use fair-use images outside of article space, but if you look closely and use a bit of imagination you can see it's ए. You're right about the pronunciation, though; that's why I said I can't answer the "why" part! —Angr 11:03, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, with a bit of imagination I can see it! I will "bend" the rules and leave the image up for a while to see if anyone can answer the "why" -- Q Chris (talk) 11:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

As for the 'why' part... it is not necessarily an English 'name'. As you already know, it is the Hindi transliteration of the letters 'PSLV' which is the original name of the rocket. You question begs the counter-question, 'why give it another name when it already has one?'--ChokinBako (talk) 11:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I understand that PSLV stands for the English name [Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle]. -- Q Chris (talk) 11:23, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Right, so I'm sure they couldn't really write all that in Hindi on the small space where the sign is, so they opted for the initials - the name of the vehicle.--ChokinBako (talk) 11:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

But couldn't they have given it a Hindi name and then labelled it using the initial Devanāgarī characters? Is that something that is done in Hindi? Or could it be "publicity" factors, like giving it a name that is easily usable in the Western press? -- Q Chris (talk) 11:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

My contact in Bangalore has told me that acronyms do exist in India, though they use a whole syllable from each word rather than a letter. —Tamfang (talk) 03:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes that makes sense because devanagari is syllable based -- Q Chris (talk) 06:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

As are most of the scripts used in India. —Tamfang (talk) 01:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

That possibly is the reason. I mean, if it's already called Chandrayaan, why not call it Chandrayaan? I see your point.--ChokinBako (talk) 11:45, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In India, by the way, the language used for scientific studies or research is English, and this is probably the reason why the vehicle has an English name, not just because of Western media. 'Chandrayaan' will be a nickname, like 'Challenger' or whatever for the shuttle. 'PSLV' actually states the purpose of the rocket, and, being scientific, is in English. Also, bear in mind, Hindi is not the only language in India. There are many more, so a lingua franca is needed. English, Hindi, and Sanskrit are the three official languages, with English doubling as the language of higher education. --ChokinBako (talk) 11:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I realise that official language is a complex issue in India, Official languages of India shows that it it is not at all clear cut. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Chandrayaan is the lunar orbiter, whereas PSLV is the rocket which launched it into space. They are not the same thing, that's why they need different names. — Emil J. 13:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - that's interesting

Help with a Latin language British title

Am I right in thinking "Rex Britanniae" means king of Britain. If so what is "British monarch" in Latin? Thanks, --217.227.78.76 (talk) 12:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about "Rex Britanniae". "British monarch" is presumably "monarchus Britanniae". —Angr 12:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Or if you really prefer "British" to "of Britain", "monarchus Britannicus". Adam Bishop (talk) 13:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Literally, yes, of course, but it can also depend on the context. When Æthelbald of Mercia styled himself Rex Britanniae, which he did at least once, he meant more by it than his plain title of Rex Merciorum or his bolder one of Rex Suthanglorum. It translated Bretwalda, but the reality of that title was roughly 'King of England'. However, when George I of Great Britain is called Rex Britanniae (or Rex Britanniae et Hiberniae), it translates into English as 'King of Great Britain' (or 'King of Great Britain and Ireland'). Strawless (talk) 15:53, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Latin question 2

What is Edward the Confessor known as in latin? Our latin wikipedia says "Eduardus Confessor", is that correct? What is "The Confessor" in Latin? Thanks for your help! ;) --217.227.73.158 (talk) 14:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the Latin Wikipedia is right. Latin has no word for "the", and the English word "confessor" is borrowed directly from Latin. —Angr 14:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

What is the Chinese term "金童玉女" in English?

I am a Chinese student whose major is English,and I find it hard to translate this Chinese term into English, If I translate the term word by word, it means "Golden boy and jade girl". The term means that a boy and a girl who can match very well, just like Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake in the late 90s.I beg any great ones who can help me come up with a more native way for this term.Of course, in English.Thank you very much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eastmanxie (talk • contribs) 14:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The most common similar phrases in English would be "made for each other", or "a match made in heaven". I can't think of any English phrases which mirror the Chinese phrase more closely, except possibly to refer to the couple metonymically by the names of famous lovers; Romeo and Juliet, Posh and Becks, etc. FiggyBee (talk) 15:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Romeo and Juliet, however, are better known for being star-crossed lovers, so maybe they're not the best example of a golden boy and a jade girl. —Angr 15:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhpas the phrase Soulmate would be an appropriate translation. --Zerozal (talk) 19:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Golden couple" gets a fair number of ghits. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I had that thought too. It seems to refer mostly to famous or celebrated couples though (including a lot of sportspeople, with "golden" being less metaphorical than it otherwise might be), rather than to couples who are especially well matched. FiggyBee (talk) 22:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Ack. You're right. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:21, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

A common acronym among the fanfiction community is "OTP," One True Pairing, but I'm not sure if it would apply here. bibliomaniac15 22:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In America there is "Ken and Barbie" a reference to dolls--Digrpat (talk) 16:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That usually refers to a couple that is attractive but vapid. —D. Monack ^talk 02:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

... and therefore not remotely attractive (except to some people). -- JackofOz (talk) 22:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Overlapping subsets

Aloha. I'm trying to reword a phrase in an article that has proven problematic, but my English is not the best. The current wording is of the form "A and B are the two types of C". The intended meaning is, in gonzo set theoretic terms, "For all x, if x is an element of C, x is either an element of A or B", or more precisely "A intersection B is the null set, and A union B is C".

The problem with the original wording e.g. "Big and small are the two types of dogs", is that it's also (roughly) accurate to say "male and female are the two types of dogs". So how do I express the claim "all C's are either A's or B's" in the style of an article lede, i.e. "A and B are____C"? Sorry if this is confusing, any help appreciated. the skomorokh 15:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You could say that Anarcho-capitalism and minarchism (let's use the actual article title, as precise context may make finding an appropriate wording easier) are two major factions within Libertarianism? Two main schools of thought? I don't see how the claim that "All Libertarians are either Anarchists or Minarchists" is important to the article. Just say that these are two major ideas which are in conflict. FiggyBee (talk) 15:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The point is that they are exhaustive of libertarianism, not just two factions among others. This is important as it attests to the notability of the topic, which has been in doubt. I appreciate your suggestions, but it's not what I am looking for. Regards, the skomorokh 15:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure you can say they are exhaustive of libertarianism. As libertarianism is a broad-reaching political philosophy, there are bound to be many nuanced types of libertarianism out there. To imply that there is only two exact "types" of libertarianism is to make the No true Scotsman fallacy... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 16:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I can't claim certainty about the precise connotations of the English words, but I think I have it right: no matter what kind of libertarian you are, you either a)believe the state is morally justified or b)do not. The claim is staked on the law of excluded middle, which if we are going to be Aristotelians about it, allows for no nuance. And on a side note, you are quite the Renaissance admin, thank you! the skomorokh 16:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

How about giving it a different structure altogether? I'd suggest something like: "A fundamental division within libertarian political thought is the division between anarcho-capitalism and minarchism." It would not imply that there may not be other ways of dividing libertarians, but it would convey that this is a meaningful division and not a trivial one. Also it would leave open the question of whether a "third way" is possible, while the text of the article itself would still make it clear that essentially all libertarians are either one or the other.--91.153.157.140 (talk) 18:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You could just as easily state that libertarianism exists on a continuum, with "anarchocapitilism" being at one extreme end, and various states of allowable state-intervention (some of which could be termed "minarchism") along the continuum, all the way towards full state-socialism on the other. You could just as easily state that while some libertarians believe in no-state intervention in any aspect of life; and believe only in pure market forces as regulating social interactions, while others believe in some limited forms of state control. That makes it sound more "either-or". The problem with using obfuscatory terms like "anarchocapitalism" and "minarchism" is that they sound like very narrowly defined terms that refer to small distinct groups, and its the words themselves that hide the real nature of the binary choice: either believing in state intervention or not... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems from my reading of the articles that "minarchism", rather than being a specific ideology, is a term used by anarchists to describe all libertarians other than themselves. Thus whether it is a useful description - outside anarchist arguments - is debatable. I don't think we're going to come up with anything that would both be satisfactory to skomorokh and address the "problematic" nature of the statement, so perhaps we should just leave it for the article's talk page? FiggyBee (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I have known people who described themselves as minarchists – possibly because they were acquainted with Sam Konkin, the flaming anarchocapitalist who (i believe) coined the word! —Tamfang (talk) 03:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

how does english sound to others?

I find French a very musical language to listen to (like many others) while German, on the other hand, sounds harsh and forceful (and seemingly well suited to Adolf Hitler's speeches, if I'm allowed to say that, if not, oops, sorry to German speaking folk). How does English sound to outsiders? Are there any typical observations they tend to make? It's been emotional (talk) 18:07, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Braindeadism bargain basement antifascism- Hitler was an Austrian you f***.--Radh (talk) 18:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Tru dat, but he did speak The german language. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

He may have been born in Austria, but he had become a German well before but certainly by the time he became Chancellor of Germany in 1933, and even more certainly after Austria was incorporated into Germany in the Anschluss in 1938. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

It's probably very subjective. For instance, I don't much care for the sound of French, but I do like the sound of German, probably because I speak a little of it. 68.230.71.24 (talk) 20:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

To attempt to actually answer the question rather than debating Hitler's nationality; apparently, to other Europeans, the sounds that stand out most are the big rounded vowels ("like talking with a potato in your mouth") and the unrolled r's. So "Rar Rar Rur Rur". To people from other parts of the world, other sounds stand out (generally, the sounds that aren't found in their native language). It's considered quite a rhythmic language, less harsh than German but less flowing than French. Incidentally, Peter Sellers on the Goon Show did a very convincing facsimile of *American* English using the syllable hern. FiggyBee (talk) 21:06, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it's very subjective. I don't have particular feelings for French, but I find German to be a very musical language - but that's probably because I learned enough German to be able to read poetry in German, and it sounds supreme. As it does in any other language you know well enough, I presume... TomorrowTime (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

You can find a lot of videos of "fake English" on Youtube by searching for it. The results probably depend on the native language of the person who is imitating it, as it will determine what different bits of English they are likely to pick up on and imitate. Steewi (talk) 05:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

And german from the south of the country and from Austria is very mellow--Radh (talk) 10:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The question from the OP is about English to others, not German to others, so I'll answer that. Being French, to me English spoken by Brits sounds like it is being spit. English spoken by Americans sound like it is being chewed. Unless it is being sung, it is not particularly musical to my ears. --Lgriot (talk) 12:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting some unusual images in my head. A little like the Schmidt Sting Pain Index. bibliomaniac15 03:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, one of Mark Twain's complaints in The Awful German Language was that German is too gentle. "Would any man want to die in a battle which was called by so tame a term as a Schlacht? Or would not a consumptive feel too much bundled up, who was about to go out, in a shirt-collar and a seal-ring, into a storm which the bird-song word Gewitter was employed to describe? And observe the strongest of the several German equivalents for explosion – Ausbruch. Our word Toothbrush is more powerful than that." That was in 1880. The wonderful polylingual glossolalia scene in The Court Jester shows that the modern "harsh" perception was well established in 1956. It's pretty easy to guess what caused that change. All I'm saying is, check the mustache on your prototypical German speaker, and watch out for stripy shirts. -- BenRG (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Not answering the OP, but BenRG nails it in his edit summary: Symphony_No._9_(Beethoven)#Vocal_parts (and the whole final movement) is one of the most musical bits of language (and pieces of music) I've ever heard. Franamax (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

To the French, English tends to sound nasal and quacking. I have read that Russians compare English to whistling and fluting. Rhinoracer (talk) 14:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe I've heard or read the phrase, "Italian is sung, French is spoken, English is spat, and German is vomited." I've also heard "Spanish is for lovers, French is for diplomats, and English is for Geese." I'm a native English speaker, with only a rudimentary exposure to German, French, Latin, and Inuktitut (roughly in that order and even in German I barely qualify as being a beginner) and I don't think English is a terribly pretty language. Even academic Latin, which is presumably stripped of any beauty it might have had in order to make students hate taking it, has a kind of clipped yet lilting quality to it, almost a specific meter in which it needs to be spoken, that English lacks. Matt Deres (talk) 20:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a Polish comedy movie where an airport employee is supposed to make an announcement in Polish and English. Since all of her English vocabulary consists of "mister" and "fank you", she first reads her announcement in Polish and then puts a spoonful of mashed potatoes in her mouth and pretends to talk in English. This should give you an idea what the slurred, gargling language that English is sounds like to Polish ears. As for other languages, German is often compared to a dog's barking in Poland, Czech and Slovak are considered childlishly amusing, while Russian and Italian are among the languages thought to be most melodic and beautiful. — Kpalion^(talk) 14:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Past tense uses of the verb "to text"

Is there agreement on how to use this relatively new verb - meaning "to send a text message" - in the past tense? I say, "I texted him last night," and, "I have texted him already," while most of my acquaintances say, "I text him last night," and "I have text him already." (Of course, I sometimes also say, "I sent him a text last night.") I think people think they can get away without the "ed" because the "t" gives something of an "-ed" sound. But it's nonsensical to me. Your views?86.139.236.224 (talk) 20:21, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Another argument could be that what they're actually saying is 'texed', past tense of 'tex', which is how they pronounce TXT (possibly without realising). 'kst' is a clumsy combination of sounds. /Coffeeshivers (talk) 20:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Along these lines, it could simply be back-formation; "Text" /tEkst/ gets reinterpreted as "texed", which would be a past-tense form already, making "texted" sound awkward. The Jade Knight (talk) 21:53, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Trying to find an analogous word, I checked a couple of online rhyming dictionaries. I didn't find a verb that rhymed perfectly with text that wasn't already a past participle. The pp of "telex" is "telexed", however. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary says "texted" (ref). The Cambridge Learners Dictionary doesn't show a past tense. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 21:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

In spoken dialogue, "text" may have become normish, but in formalish writing I don't think you could get away with less than "texted", if only because "text", while it sounds like a past tense (of the verb "to tex"), does not have the form of a past tense (it lacks an -ed). -- JackofOz (talk) 22:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I use "sms" as a verb (pronounced as a word, not an initialism), with the past tense "smsd". Although it takes me so long to type a message on the damn thing that I usually just call. :) FiggyBee (talk) 22:41, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

"Texted" gets lots of google hits - such as this rather enlightening document. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Celtic/Irish/Welsh Symbolism Sign Language

Looking for possible historic reference on the V_sign that may mean anything in secret society language, and/or mythic lore stories of the Celtic region, something to do with Snakes? Like maybe something like Fang style? This is way way out there, but there was a Fred Flinstone & Barney Rubble episode where they in their Loyal Order of Water Buffalos Lodge and being members of the Loyal Order of Dinosaurs do the Peace sign, with accented Fang-Puncturing-Motion. I thought it was so funny as a kid, and just wanted to know if there were any historic significance to this cartoon art medium. Cheers. --i am the kwisatz haderach (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Try at the Social Science desk, if no one knows here. Personally, I doubt a connection. The Jade Knight (talk) 21:57, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

October 23

Ballots and votes

I keep hearing "Cast their ballot" instead of "Cast their vote". Is this correct? The way I see it, you can cast a vote but, unless you're throwing the piece of paper, you can't cast a ballot. Dismas|^(talk) 05:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it's okay. In a lot of places, you're literally casting a paper ballot into a metal ballot box, and even in the places where it's done differently, you're still metaphorically casting your ballot. —Angr 07:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There may be a confusion between the different meanings of ballot. In Angr's example, it's the physical piece of paper the voter puts into the ballot box. If you're talking about the physical action of walking over to the box and inserting the piece of paper into the slot, that's casting a ballot. But if you're talking about the general concept of having your say, then it would be casting a vote. In other words, you can cast/have a vote by casting a ballot. Ballot also refers to the general method of choosing a representative or deciding a question, e.g. a secret ballot, which does not necessarily involve any paper ballots. If it were entirely electronic, you'd cast/have a vote by pressing a button or pulling a lever, not by casting a ballot. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:30, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Thanks both of you. I hadn't thought of the "casting it into the ballot box" form of casting. Dismas|^(talk) 13:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

And in most elections, you're dealing with more than one office or more than one issue, so you have many votes (e.g., your vote for president, your vote for senator, your vote for city councilman, your vote in the sewer-bond referendum), all of which you cast by means of the collection of choices on the ballot. --- OtherDave (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Except that, in many countries, there are separate ballot papers for each such election. jnestorius^(talk) 17:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The Casting vote article might be of interest to people in this discussion. (I'm not suggesting it answers the OP's question, just that it seems related. ) 16:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Wanderer57 (talk)

October 24

Russian spam

Lately my spam-filters see this a hundred times a day: Только наши телочки так сладко стонут... (usually with at least one misspelling). This seems to mean Only our телочки moan so sweetly; what's that one word? —Tamfang (talk) 14:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Calves. DAVID ŠENEK 16:40, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Calves or calves? —Angr 18:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Calves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 10:41, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

So it's a bestiality spam? —Tamfang (talk) 02:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

If you do a Google Images search (with Safe Search turned off) for the word телочки you will get lots of non-safe-for-work images, none of them relating to bestiality. I think the word must have some other meaning as well. —Angr 06:40, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

My Oxford Russian-English dictionary doesn't have any such word as телочeк/телочкa/телочки. It does have the colloquial word for calf, телок, and the more standard word телёнок. Телочки would be a perfectly normal way of deriving a diminutive (pl.) of телок; and Russians are fond of using diminutives for things that are already relatively small, thus making them sound even smaller - e.g. маленький мальчик is the usual way of referring to a boy of any age, but considered word-for-word it means "little boy". So, телочки could mean a young calf, even a baby calf, or it could just mean a calf of indeterminate age. Looking up "calf" in my English-Russian dictionary, I get only телёнок. But looking down the page, my eye espied "calflove", a word I'd never heard of before. It translated it as ребяческая любовь, or юношеское увлечение. The first means "childish or infantile love", the second "youthful passion". The sense I get is that they're talking about a young person exhibiting feelings for another person. So far, so good. Turning now to my trusty English-English dictionary, I find that calf love is a "temporary infatuation of a young boy or girl for a person of the opposite sex". In the context of the question, I guess телочки could be some sort of code for the subjects of pedophiliac attention, but on the face of it, it seems to be related to the reverse of pedophilia, i.e. a young person having a crush on an older person, quite a natural and common phenomenon. These days, though, you never know what words mean to initiates. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Тёлочка is the hypocoristic form of тёлка, that is, "little cow". Тёлочки may be loosely translated as chicks. Only our chicks moan so sweetly. I like that :) --Ghirla^-трёп- 08:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Map of world languages

Does anyone here know of a map of the world with the countries colour-coded along the lines of Image:English-as-Official-Language.png but for multiple languages? I don't think I've seen one before but I'd like to. — maestrosync ^talk — 16:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

There's Image:Human_Language_Families_(wikicolors).png (and several variants of it, I believe). -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Template for this Article needs to be copyedited by a native English speaker" ?

There is a Wiki template (or something similar) to say: this Article needs to be copyedited by a native English speaker ? I'm not English mother tongue and I would like to flag temporally an Article in order to have some other editor to check its readability (for example Lives of the Prophets I've developed from a stub). Thanks. A ntv (talk) 17:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps one of those at Wikipedia:Template_messages/Cleanup#Translation, most likely Template:RoughTranslation or Template:Cleanup-translation. You can also drop a message to an available proofreader who is proficient in your mother language (Category:Available proofreaders in Wikipedia) or leave a proofreading request on Wikipedia:Translation. Nanonic (talk) 17:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Quick question [agreement of verb with compound subject]

Is it "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) is acting silly" or "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) are acting silly"?

I thought that I could write "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) is ..." because Jack was the subject. Apparently, I'm wrong, even if I put brackets around "and his ever present sidekick John". I was thinking that because I intend John only to be incidental that I could take Jack as the subject instead of "Jack and John". 203.217.43.170 (talk) 18:01, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd recommend changing and to along with. Then nobody—one would think—could deny that the parenthetical material does not affect the number of the subject, and you could use is with impunity. I'd also hyphenate ever-present. Deor (talk) 18:46, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If John is ever-present, then he's not incidental, is he? What about "Jack and John (his ever present sidekick) are acting silly" ? --LarryMac | Talk 19:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

A "parenthetic" subject is traditionally excluded from deciding the number of the subject for the purposes of agreement with the verb. What constitutes a "parenthetic" subject is fuzzy (e.g. phrases like "as well as", marking off with commas) but if it's in parentheses then it's definitely parenthetic. jnestorius^(talk) 21:35, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

[Ah, yes. Edit conflict with Jnestorius. I'll post it exactly as I had it anyway:]

I agree with Deor: change and to along with. That's one perfectly sound way of keeping a singular form of the verb. But the brackets complicate things, since in cases like this what's inside them ought not to affect the syntax of what's outside. Acceptable solutions therefore include these:

• Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly.
• Jack, along with his ever-present sidekick John, is acting silly.
• Jack (along with his ever-present sidekick John) is acting silly.

I have added a hyphen, and managed commas carefully. In each case another comma is possible before John, but it would clutter things needlessly.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Without wishing to gainsay the ever-correct Noetica, are the commas necessary - or even desirable - in "Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly"? The form is "A, and B, are doing X", which seems fairly non-acceptable to me. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

With all due deference to my esteemed antipodean colleague JackofOz, I point out that I wrote "acceptable solutions therefore include these". I do not claim that those commas are necessary or even desirable, in most situations in which the sentence would be deployed. But the question was put in terms of some such parenthetic structure, and there are indeed contexts in which this very interpolation would be parenthetical. Consider:

• "How is Jack behaving today?" "Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, are acting silly."

See? The main point is to respond to a question about Jack; and the information about John, being a gratuitous amplification, is parenthetical.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 22:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. I'm not convinced. If "and his ever-present sidekick John" is truly parenthetical, it would have to be "Jack, and his ever-present sidekick John, is acting silly", wouldn't it? Seems to me the choices are: commas and "is", or no commas and "are". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

The point is that sometimes there is a rhetorical reason for setting off part of a compound subject with commas, but doing so doesn't necessitate the use of a singular verb. As a style guide I happen to have handy (Words into Type) says, "The copy editor should not be misled by punctuation that makes a plural subject appear to be a singular subject followed by a parenthetical phrase"—an example given being "The great diversity of the risks covered, and the complex nature of the business, introduce production problems of an unusual character" (emphasis mine). Deor (talk) 00:10, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

JackofOz, we might distinguish semantic and syntactic parenthesis.

Brackets (or "parentheses", in the Vespuccian patois) isolate the syntax of the included material much more trenchantly than other devices. A pair of commas has little isolating effect; a pair of sentence-level dashes (em dshes, or my preferred spaced en dashes) has an isolating effect intermediate between commas and brackets.

Semantic parenthesis is a more fluid affair than syntactic parenthesis. In suggesting that and his ever-present sidekick John may in some situations be parenthetical, I mean semantically parenthetical.

Then there is prosodic parenthesis. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:57, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm ill-equipped to engage in discourse of such abstruseness, being a mere dilettante who thinks he generally knows good grammar and bad grammar when he sees them. So I won't argue any more. But I know what I'd be writing if I were writing the sentence in question, and anyone who dared question me would have a fight on their hands. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 07:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Jack and his sometimes-present sidekick Noetica do not agree on the matter! But does Jack know much about punctuation? I think that Jack, and his friend Noetica, are quite knowledgeable, really. I would even say that Jack – and of course, Noetica – is generally pretty good on these matters. One might always assume that Jack (with the Great Noetica) is always worth listening to. Gwinva (talk) 08:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

[Gwinva! I said I would contact you, not edit conflict with you! Anyway, clever self-referential use of parentheses. Or should that be self-parenthetical use of references? I can't be sure any more. Still, let us bluff ever onward:]

And modest, too, JoO. I like that! :)

Actually the terminology is up for grabs. It pays to bluff, and to assume an air of authority whether it be warranted or no. (I did – a bit, at least.)

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 08:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Everyone who has posted any response other than a decisive MAKE AGREEMENT AS THOUGH THERE ARE NO PARANTHESES (AS THOUGH YOU'RE READING OUT LOUD) is WRONG. There is one and only one way to continue a sentence after you've included some parentheses: as though the things in parentheses weren't in parentheses.

It is:

• "Jack (and his ever present sidekick John) are acting silly"
• "In all our storied past (and currently, and in all our foreseeable future) we shall remain..."
• "Neither you nor Jacky (nor I) am a good person to discuss this with"

It's that simple. It's a matter of the "correct" or "incorrent" answer to this question. NO EXCEPTIONS. The people above who gave a different alternative are just wrong. Period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.27.170.127 (talk) 23:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Life is certainly simple for the dogmatic. Deor (talk) 23:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) And your authority for this rather dubious and over-assertive assertion is ...? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

One point unmentioned so far is that, to my most English-English of ears, "acting silly" is rather odd. I prefer "being silly" or "acting in a silly way." As to the original point, I think the problem is definitely caused by the use of the word "and", which confuses things terribly. "Along with" is OK, or "as well as". As soon as you have "and", the parenthetical nature of the reference to the sidekick is lost or obscured. Further, as far as I can see, unless John is just one of several sidekicks, the use of a comma before his name is not really optional. Consider the difference between the two sentences: i) "James, as well as his wife Jane, speaks Italian." ii) "James, as well as his wife, Jane, speaks Italian." The former surely suggests James is a polygamist. Wife ought to be restrictive, or defining, so a comma is needed. But as with all these things, much depends on the reader. Writing is there to be read, not to be written. A careful writer will know the audience and put together a text accordingly. In many circumstances, these intricacies can be safely glossed over.-86.139.236.224 (talk) 13:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Question

How can 「（日付）を以って（動詞）」 be translated? Same as 「（日付）に（動詞）」？--ChokinBako (talk) 18:03, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

(日付）を以って can be translated as 'as of 日付'. Oda Mari (talk) 18:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm amazed you didn't check Eijirō, the one dictionary I would take to a desert island if I was planning to do Japanese-English translation work there. It suggests "as of" or "effective". -- BenRG (talk) 18:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I use Eijiro all the time, lar, on www.alc.co.jp, but it only gave two examples of the use of '以って', and both translations did not seem applicable to the context of the text I am working on. Oda Mari's translation was perfect.--ChokinBako (talk) 23:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Accents of Hitchcock and Karloff

Boris Karloff and Alfred Hitchcock were born in London a few years apart, but had quite distinctively different accents, but both sound British to American ears. Was this difference of dialect or accent due to the different neighborhoods they were from, or to different social class of their parents? Is there a name for the typical British English of each of these celebrities? Karloff sounded (except when he was doing a dialect role) a bit upscale from Hitchcock.Here is a 1964 interview with Hitchcock: [1] , and here he is introducing a TV episode [2]. Here is Karloff, at 1:30 introducing a TV show:[3] , and at 2:30 [4] introducing another episode. Edison (talk) 21:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

"British English" as a term refers to the way in which the form of English used in Britain differs in spelling, vocabulary, grammar and punctuation from that used elsewhere. It shouldn't really be used to describe accents. People in Britain don't have "British accents"; they have English, Scottish, Welsh accents etc as applicable. What Americans tend to think of when they talk about a "Bridish accent" is almost invariably an English accent, either RP or some godawful version of cockney.

I'd agree that Hitchcock has a slightly lower-middle-class drawl compared to Karloff, but bear in mind that actors often undergo vocal training to speak with a kind of RADA accent, whereas directors do not. Malcolm XIV (talk) 16:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Kamikaze

Why do people insist on translating 'Kamikaze' as 'God of the Wind', when 'Kaze' is the main part of this word, therefore meaning 'Wind of the Gods'? If it was 'God of the Wind', it would be 'Kazekami'. Historically, 'Wind of the Gods' would make sense, considering it referred originally to the typhoon that repelled the Mongol invasion in the 13th Century. Any thoughts on this?--ChokinBako (talk) 23:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I've always seen it translated as "divine wind." Who are these people who translate it as "God of the Wind"? Deor (talk) 00:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I've heard people say it, and seen it on the odd TV documentary - admittedly, old ones.--ChokinBako (talk) 10:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Merchant Ships

What is the meaning of 'maru', the word that comes after the name of practically every merchant ship in Japan? One of my friends who is a sailor asked me this tonight, and I couldn't answer. 'Circle' did not quite convince him. Any ideas?--ChokinBako (talk) 23:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

For some theories, see Japanese ship naming conventions#Maru. Deor (talk) 00:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Difficult question. The oldest citation is from an 1187 text. There are a number of suggested etymologies, but no general consensus:

1. maro (麿, "I") > maru; originally used to refer to oneself, gradually changed to refer to things near oneself as a term of endearment
2. personification (again from maro (麿, "I"))
3. from maro (麿), a suffix to a boys name
4. from the word for stripped wood (maruta 丸太) used in boat construction
5. from toimaru (問丸), medieval tradesmen on boats

Nothing definite, but FYI. Bendono (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow! I can't believe it's such a mystery! Thanks!--ChokinBako (talk) 10:13, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

October 25

Japanese translation

I feel I understand what is being said, but I would like a second opinion. In the sentence 『CLANNAD』は自分の中でもシナリオではもう行き着くとこまで行っちゃって二度と越えられない壁になってます。 (which references Clannad) I believe it says, "Clannad has already become, among all my scenarios, an impassable wall that I will never reach again." or so. The speaker is Jun Maeda, the main scenario writer for Clannad.--十八 06:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

How about this? Inside of me, the scenario of 'Clanned' was developed to the full extent and now I found a brick wall that I could never break through. Oda Mari (talk) 06:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

That still conveys the same message, right? In that Maeda is saying he reached the limit of his writing ability with Clannad, and now he believes he'll never write something as ambitious, or more ambitious, than what he did with Clannad, right?--十八 08:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he is saying he got to a wall that I will never be able to get over again. --ChokinBako (talk) 09:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the responses.--十八 20:53, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

A note on masculine as default grammatical gender

I just wrote something about this, but then the section was archived from under me: see my scintillating contribution here.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 08:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation [in Charade, and in Shakespeare?]

This line from Charade has me in a quandry: "Well, wasn't it Shakespeare that said, 'When strangers do meet in far off lands, they should e'er long see each other again'?" Assuming that the "Shakespearean" line is complete, should there be a period after "again" or is there some rule against having two punctuation marks one after the other (sort of)? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Certainly nothing closely resembling that line occurs in Shakespeare. But even if it did, there would be no point in consulting such a source. Shakespearian punctuation is variable and illogical by our standards.

Anyway, no: there should not be such a period. See WP:MOS, where this is dealt with quite well.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 08:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Not relevant to your question, but that line doesn't even make sense. e'er should probably be ere. Algebraist 10:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

That line was just part of a joke (hence the quotation marks) to allow Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn the opportunity to be charming (and they are). Clarityfiend (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Kde domov muj? [Czech pronunciation]

How is "muj" pronounced? Once again, I am pretty illterate in IPA, so avoid using it. Come to think of it, where is the diacritic that's supposed to be on the u? I could only find the ring for the a, the one that looks Swedish. Vltava 68 (talk contribs) 09:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you are referring to František Škroup's song Kde domov můj? Where is the diacritic? There is the diacritic! I believe můj is pronounced /muj/! That is, like Spanish muy. The u is roughly pronounced like the u in English put, or in German Mutter.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact you can find that ů in the "Latin" options below the Edit Box:

Á á Ć ć É é Í í Ĺ ĺ Ń ń Ó ó Ŕ ŕ Ś ś Ú ú Ý ý Ź ź À à È è Ì ì Ò ò Ù ù  â Ĉ ĉ Ê ê Ĝ ĝ Ĥ ĥ Î î Ĵ ĵ Ô ô Ŝ ŝ Û û Ŵ ŵ Ŷ ŷ Ä ä Ë ë Ï ï Ö ö Ü ü Ÿ ÿ ß Ã ã Ẽ ẽ Ĩ ĩ Ñ ñ Õ õ Ũ ũ Ỹ ỹ Ç ç Ģ ģ Ķ ķ Ļ ļ Ņ ņ Ŗ ŗ Ş ş Ţ ţ Đ đ Ů ů Ǎ ǎ Č č Ď ď Ě ě Ǐ ǐ Ľ ľ Ň ň Ǒ ǒ Ř ř Š š Ť ť Ǔ ǔ Ž ž Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū Ȳ ȳ Ǣ ǣ ǖ ǘ ǚ ǜ Ă ă Ĕ ĕ Ğ ğ Ĭ ĭ Ŏ ŏ Ŭ ŭ Ċ ċ Ė ė Ġ ġ İ ı Ż ż Ą ą Ę ę Į į Ǫ ǫ Ų ų Ḍ ḍ Ḥ ḥ Ḷ ḷ Ḹ ḹ Ṃ ṃ Ṇ ṇ Ṛ ṛ Ṝ ṝ Ṣ ṣ Ṭ ṭ Ł ł Ő ő Ű ű Ŀ ŀ Ħ ħ Ð ð Þ þ Œ œ Æ æ Ø ø Å å Ə ə

And yes, můj (alternatively múj) is indeed pronounced like /muy/, but with a longish and more rounded u than the unadorned letter. (Source: Routledge Czech Grammar.)

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 09:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

It is pronounced muːj. There is nothing more rounded about it than <u>, and there's no such alternative spelling as "múj". — Emil J. 10:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Does a word/phrase exist for this type of "getting caught"?

Is there a specific word or common phrase in any language for this kind of situation?

Example 1) You are a law-abiding driver and always have been. In your small town you have never seen a police car, ever, in your many years of living there. That one time you ever consider rolling through a stop sign and do it, you see the lights and sirens in your rear view window.

Example 2) You're at your office cubicle and have an itch in your nose. You think to yourself, "someone will see me if I scratch it and they'll think I'm picking my nose". You wait and wait for the itch to hopefully go away on its own. Ten minutes later, nobody has walked by your cubicle and your nose feels like it is crawling with fire ants, so you go for the gold. Within the exact same second or two that you put your finger in your nose, your boss comes around the corner out of nowhere to talk to you.

Example 3) You're playing a first-person shooter, with a sniper rifle to keep an area clear for your teammates. You keep a reputably-troublesome hallway scoped for a few minutes when you don't see any action at all there the entire time. You figure the frontline action moved forward in the game, and staring at a wall is boring, so you proceed toward that hallway to reach wherever you think your teammates are... the moment you enter the hallway and almost reach the end, a superiorly-equipped enemy comes around the corner and destroys you without blinking.

With things like the second example, I always used the word "Seinfeldian", but that's an adjective :)

Also I wonder if Statisticians have studied this phenomenon. It kind of nullifies the idea of patience being a virtue. --75.165.11.199 (talk) 17:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I remember it discussed by Scott Adams years ago, but he didn't have a name for it either. Seems to be a corollary of Murphy's law. jnestorius^(talk) 17:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

See Murphy's laws. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

sod's law ?hotclaws 07:02, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, Spear of Destiny put out the Sod's Law album and there seems to be a spear of destiny operating in this kind of dumb luck, often enough to seem precisely planned. Karma? in the sense that what you avoid most gets you without warning. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation guide

Can you please use a pronunciation guide like "The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language" pronunciation guide, or at least a pronunciation guide that divides a word into syllables. All American children were taught learn the pronunciation of a new word by this means in elementary school. Please do this. The pronunciation guide that you use is difficult and it is not helpful. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.118.229.108 (talk) 18:28, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The AHD pronunciation guide won't be helpful to non-Americans who didn't learn it at school. IPA has the advantage of being an international standard. Moreover, any English-specific pronunciation guide will be useless at accurately describing the pronunciation of words from other languages which may have sounds that don't exist in English. If IPA is difficult for you, you may try Wikipedia:IPA and Wikipedia:IPA for English to start learning it. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Phobia name

I realise this is a bit of a silly question, but does anyone know what the Latin name would be for a phobia of dropping one's keys into the gap between a lift car and the floor? Something we'd been arguing about in the pub, but nobody knew the answer. — FIRE!^{in a crowded theatre...} 18:50, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, this is medical advice. Grab your car keys, hop into the elevator and drive to to your physicia - ooops, drat - walk to your physicians surgery.

Unfortunately, it will be locked as the good doctor dropped her keys into the storm water drain when she climbed into her car through the side window. The reason for her unusual boarding maneuvre can easily be guessed, but the terminology currently escapes me... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not even going to try to pretend to go Greek for this -- using Latin stems, one possibility might be Clavirimophobia (clavis, rima). AnonMoos (talk) 21:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

See The Phobia List. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

How about ptosikleisophobia? (from ptosis, falling, and kleis, key) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 09:55, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Kleis is a case form (nominative singular if with an acute accent, nominative/accusative plural if with a cicumflex accent), not the stem used for compounding. The stem is kleid- ... AnonMoos (talk)

October 26

Magazine name

hi every one! i'm gonna start a new magazine! suggest me short stylich meaningful names of any language............... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.103.140 (talk) 07:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, what's the magazine about? You want a name that's actually relevant to the topic, not just some random word, right? (If you do just want some random word, try hitting Special:Random or wikt:Special:Random a few times till you find a word you like.) —Angr 07:32, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Will the name express something of your magazine's purpose or intent? Though it's a typo, "Stylich" sounds catchy for a mag about style, say. Julia Rossi (talk) 21:41, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Especially if the intended audience is liches. Or maybe it's Style-itch? —Tamfang (talk) 01:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Truck driver who likes to drive in stocking feet

I am a truck driver who likes to drive in stocking feet; is this legal to do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.147.28.1 (talk) 13:18, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Could you tell us what jurisdiction you are driving in? and how this is a language question? Dismas|^(talk) 14:48, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Weird Al Yankovic has a song like that. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

We can't answer legal questions here anyway. —Angr 19:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Who would ever know? The X-ray-equipped fashion police? Clarityfiend (talk) 19:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

If he gets stopped by the police for something else, and is in his stocking feet when they ask him to step out of the truck, he could get in additional trouble if it turns out to be illegal. At any rate, I'd consider it a bad idea, even if it's not illegal in your jurisdiction. —Angr 20:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Me too. The core question has nothing to do with socks, sockings etc. It's really about whether the driver is wearing footwear or not (e.g. shoes). I was taught to always wear shoes when driving ( I sometimes ignore this advice), but it was more a question of safety than being illegal per se. That's in my jurisdiction; the law may be different where you live. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

"a question of safety than being illegal" - why would it be less safe to drive without shoes? I would have thought it would be just as safe unless you're wearing unusually slippery socks. Bare feet can easily grip the pedals, and if you were to wear socks that couldn't grip the pedals and expected to do this often, you could get grips for the pedals. - So I don't really see a safety issue...or am I missing something?

Also if he gets stopped by the police knowing that it is illgal, he could quickly slip on some loose shoes before they even get out of their car or tell him to.W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 23:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

I've driven with and without shoes, but either way feels safer than with slippers, btw. —Tamfang (talk) 01:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I think it depends on what type of shoes you normally wear. Sometimes, it can be a better idea to take them off and just wear socks. I once knew a Japanese girl who was short even by Japanese standards and she wore platform shoes. She had to take them off to drive.--ChokinBako (talk) 01:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

But there is a difference when it comes to women because they wear platforms (as in your picture) and high-heels. They don't drive in these shoes because it wouldn't be practical so they usually take them off in their car and put on driving shoes, that's why a woman driver at a petrol station wearing high-heels won't just get in her car and drive off(after paying), but will take 5 minutes before she pulls away. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 01:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Subject / verb agreement

I received an email, and I was typing my reply. My very first sentence was this: Your email brings two thoughts to mind. I continued on, typing the rest of the email. Then, I went back to the very first sentence and I added in the following parenthetical: (and its accompanying questions). Now, my first sentence read: Your email (and its accompanying questions) brings two thoughts to mind. Mentally, I went back and forth 100 times, wondering if the verb should stay as singular brings or should be changed to plural bring. I was taught (I think?) that a parenthetical is absolutely irrelevant to sentence structure. The sentence should be able to stand alone if the parenthetical were completely removed. This leads me to believe that the correct verb should remain singular brings. However, at the same time, introducing the parenthetical seems to make the subject of the verb change from singular to plural. And hence require plural bring. No? So, here are my questions. (Question 1) In the new and revised sentence, with the added parenthetical, what exactly is the subject? Is it merely "your email" or is it "your email (and its accompanying questions)"? And, thus, what is the subject's appropriate verb? (Question 2) Would the answer to Question 1 change in any way if I rewrote the sentence by simply deleting the parentheses symbols and doing nothing else? In other words, is there any semantic / grammatical / linguistic difference between Sentence A and Sentence B below? Certainly, their substance and what they are communicating are exactly identical ... or no?

Sentence A: Your email (and its accompanying questions) brings two thoughts to mind.

Sentence B: Your email and its accompanying questions bring two thoughts to mind.

I understand that I can change words around, etc., to fix this problem. My question, though, presumes that I do not want to do so. Help! Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC))

I suggest that you start by reading this thread above, so that folks don't have to repeat the responses they made there. Afterwards, if you have any remaining questions, let us know what they are. Deor (talk) 16:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks. I had not seen that above thread from a few days ago. But, on certain levels, neither did I find it helpful. Maybe some "language ref type" can help? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:19, 26 October 2008 (UTC))

The only difference I see is that A makes the questions a bit more subordinate. Clarityfiend (talk) 18:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

In this case, it sounds like it's not even necessary to refer to the accompanying questions. If you received a letter, you wouldn't respond with "Thank you for your letter and its content". Whatever your response is, "your letter" refers not to the physical object that arrived in your letter box, but to the content of the communication. Same principle with an email, where the content can include the main message plus attachments. In some cases you may, in the body of your reply, need to refer to a specific attachment to identify a particular sentence you're commenting on, but your introductory thank you is all inclusive, whether there are attachments or not. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, you MUST formulate your sentence to read correctly when read out loud (i.e. where parenthetical marks are not possible). So it MUST be Your email (and its accompanying questions) bring two thoughts to mind. Hope this helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.90.101 (talk) 22:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

It would help even more if you weren't quite so categorical in your responses. Please let your words speak for themselves, without the need to emphasise them unduly. If you believe there's one and only one correct answer to a controversial question, please provide your authority. (Btw, your answer to the thread above has been questioned as well.) -- JackofOz (talk) 01:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

And, by the way: a sentence containing a parenthesis needs to make sense with the parenthesis deleted. Keeping this rule in mind can help you not put the closing ')' in the wrong place. —Tamfang (talk) 01:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Laugh(ing) like a drain

Where does this expression originate?--GreenSpigot (talk) 20:16, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

This [5] says: "This is a UK phrase, from around the time of WWII. It is first recorded by Eric Partridge in A dictionary of forces' slang 1939–45, 1948. He describes it as 'Ward-room and also Army officers’ slang'". The etymology / sense seems unclear. The link speculates on some implied onomatopoeic gargling gurgling pun. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Could it be refwerence to the gurgling sound as when pouring water down the drain pipe?--GreenSpigot (talk) 22:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Oops, it´s them gargoyles gurgling at the dentist´s spitoon I was laughing about in my Freudian slippers. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

And possibly an open mouth/throat like a drain to produce the uninhibited noise? Julia Rossi (talk) 01:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Good name?

I met this guy (from India) a while ago on holiday and he asked me what my good name was, I had no understanding of what he meant until someone explained it to me, at which point I responded. When he said "good name" I thought it might be a type of name such as forename and surname.

When I went on holiday in summer, on the plane I saw a movie called Outsourced, in it, a man meets this Indian guy who asked him what his good name was, he also seemed quite confused. Why do some people ask "What is your good name?" and not just "What's your name?"?

I understand that they are complimenting your name, but that seems kind of wierd as they haven't even heard it yet - so how can you compliment it if you haven't heard it (the compliment seems almost insincere).

I live in the UK and have never heard this phrase used there, and I concider myself a well-travelled man and have only heard it the one time. I have never heard this phrase used in America either. So is this just a phrase used in India, or is it used anywhere else in the world? Thanks. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 23:46, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

"Your good self" and "your good name" have a certain colonial/post colonial ring to them. Some things just become the uninspected bedrock drift of customary phrases, perhaps. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for putting it like that, because I have heard "Your good self" many times before, but never thought about it like that (i.e. associated it with the oddity that is "your good name").W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 01:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

In The Namesake (film) (about an Indian family in New York) the son's "good name" is mentioned several times. If I remember right, the son is given an informal name at birth, and later a "good name"; and in his teens he says he wants to change his "good name" from one of his given names to the other. —Tamfang (talk) 01:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

So is that just the name they prefer to be called, like a nickname? W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 02:00, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I got the impression that it's a formal or ceremonial name. (It's best to indent by one more than whatever you're responding to.) —Tamfang (talk) 05:06, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

"Your good name" in the Indian context is the same as saying "your honorable name;" it is just an old way of being polite. In the other sense, your good name is your reputation, and this usage is quite common in American English. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

American 'save the world' films

Why is it that the 'President' on all films where America saves the world talks big but always speaks a type of English that makes him sound like he dropped out of school when he was 16? I know for a fact that educated Americans (and even American presidents!) do not talk like that. I am talking about Impact Earth and Independence Day, as well as others. Watching this stuff is like reading the Sunday Sport - full of emotive language and cliches.--ChokinBako (talk) 23:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Well I would guess that films portray American presidents as ignorant ill-educated fools is because they (usually) are! You say American presidents don't talk like that, I can't comment on Impact Earth or Independence Day as I havn't seen either, but they don't talk as if they are educated either. Generally, American presidents talk rubbish. I have never read the Sunday Sport, so I can't comment on that.

Generally fiction needs some realism - aliens, time travel and other obsurdities are within the realms of one's imagination, but an intellectual American president - now that's going too far. I suggest if you wan't something so impossible to be depicted in film, you make your own. Please don't take this paragraph too seriously!

It is believed by many people (not including me when talking about Americans in general) that Americans (especially American presidents) aren't very intelligent *understatement of the year*. Clearly the makers of the films you mention believe that playing on this cliche of a stereotype enhances their film in some way - this stereotype can be (and often is) exploited for great comic effect.

Hope that helps.W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 00:28, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Cheers, you are making sense. Also (at the risk of this question becoming unrelated to language), why is it that the nuclear bomb is the answer to everything? Haven't the directors of these farcical films realised yet that the end of their stories are so incredibly predictable, with a President talking like a teenager and a nuke at the end? Oh, no, of course, these films are aimed at the uneducated masses (of which we have our fair share here in the UK, so this is not a dig at the US)....--ChokinBako (talk) 00:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

One doesn't watch a show like Independence Day for sophisticated writing. (Sophisticated visual effects, yes.) —Tamfang (talk) 01:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, most people aren't very intelligent as you've outlined, and so the fact that most films share the same plot and are unbelievably predictable means nothing because most people are to stupid to notice. Quantum of Solace for example is coming out in 4 days and I'll probably go to see it (mainly for conversational purposes), even though I'm sure it will have a similar plot (if not the same) to every other Bond film made. It will probably also have many factual errors and continuity errors, none-the-less it will undoubtedly be a major success (just like Casino Royale).W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 01:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

One doesn't watch a movie such as Independence Day for the erudite dialogue because of the lack of erudite dialogue. Though I do wonder why one would watch a show like Independance Day at all.W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 01:41, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Bill Pullman's speech in Independence Day (film) is one of the greatest by any president real or fiction. Grsz^Review! 01:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

In what way? I'm not saying you're wrong (as I haven't seen the film), I'm just enquiring. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 01:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

(EC)Right, and the aliens' computer just happens to be able to understand DOS, or whatever other human computer language the virus was written in. Oh, and they also used a USB or some such other human interface. Total crap.--ChokinBako (talk) 02:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

From that statement, It does sound as if it is "total crap"! W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 03:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Independence Day does use the Hollywood OS and yes, it is rather predictable. But it's a fun movie. It's mental bubble gum and visually pretty cool for its time. It wasn't supposed to be the next Citizen Kane but it's a long way from Ishtar. As for Bill Pullman's speech, I don't remember it word for word but given that the speech was impromptu, not written by speech writers on the president's staff, and directed towards a bunch of refugees in their own country assembled on the tarmac who were portrayed as everyday Joes (I don't recall right now whether they were able to broadcast the speech at that point in the movie), I don't think that they did that bad with it. I wonder what the OP's opinion of Air Force One is... Dismas|^(talk) 05:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

"full of emotive language and cliches" That's the way most politicians talk when they're making speeches for general consumption, regardless of nationality. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The main problem with the speech is that he claims July 4 will now be the world's Independence Day. Lame. There is a radio program from the British point of view that discusses that (Independence Day UK). By the way, is "Impact Earth" supposed to be Deep Impact? I would say Morgan Freeman is a better president than Bill Pullman but I don't recall his speech at all. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The speech is reminiscent of the President's speech in the final movie of Battlestar Galactica - very emotive and patriotic. And, it wasn't Deep Impact - although I do have the misfortune to have seen that, too. Impact Earth was a docudrama on Discovery Channel. As for Air Force One, I have not seen that, but was intending to until it came up in this thread. If there is any relevance at all to the theme of this thread, then I may give it a miss.--ChokinBako (talk) 09:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

October 27

Itinerant job?

"After growing up in Liverpool, the brothers, following their father's itinerant job,......"

This is from Red Flag (band).

A person moving often to find work is "itinerant". Is it a) reasonable or b) over-reaching to talk of an itinerant job? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CBHA (talk • contribs) 02:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Itinerant...

• ...as a noun - One who travels from place to place
• ...as an adjective - Habitually travelling from place to place

From this I wouldn't think that you can say itinerant job, but I may be wrong. W.i.k.i.p.e.d.i.a - Reference desk guy (talk) 03:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Jobs don't travel from place to place; people do. I would rephrase it as "...the brothers, because of the itinerant nature of their father's job,..." (However, if an eccentric billionaire paid you to to move around a lot, I'd call that an itinerant job.) Clarityfiend (talk) 06:10, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

In the globalized era, jobs do indeed travel from place to place. If people in one place aren't sufficiently experienced, educated or expert; happen to be too expensive; or have the bad luck to live in an unstable or high tax jurisdiction, that job is going to hit the road if it possibly can. Pay attention to your productivity and those jobs will stick around. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Swimming halls and pools

What is a building containing indoor swimming pools called in English? Is it just a swimming pool? In Finnish, it is called "fi:Uimahalli", literally meaning "swimming hall", and it's the same in Swedish: "sv:Simhall". JIP | Talk 06:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

"Aquatics Centre" is a common fancy name, as in Beijing National Aquatics Center, but I can't think of a common name that people would actually say. A "swimming pool" is either in someone's backyard, or it is a single outdoor public pool, or a single pool in one of these buildings. Maybe "swimming centre"? I've never heard anyone say "swimming hall". Adam Bishop (talk) 07:57, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• I'd agree with that answer. Indoor swimming pools don't really have a special name (in Dutch or English) Aquatics centre is the word people use for such a building, but it in day to day life, it still tends to be called simply a pool. -- Mgm|^(talk) 08:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

For me, the answer would probably depend on what the place called itself. If I was going to the YMCA to swim, I'd probably say "I'm going to the Y". If, when I was an undergrad at the University of Texas, I had ever gone to the Lee and Joe Jamail Texas Swimming Center, I probably would have said "I'm going to the swimming center". And so forth. I don't think I'd have a single generic name for a building containing an indoor swimming pool. In German, though, I'd use "Schwimhalle" (like Finnish and Swedish above). —Angr 08:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

For indoor swimming pools specifically, we, in the North West of England, use 'swimming baths' or just 'baths', while for an outdoor pool, if there was one, we'd say 'the swimming pool'.--ChokinBako (talk) 09:43, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

For others of us, saying "I'm going to the baths" means something quite different, which probably doesn't involve swimming at all. Then there's the option of going to The Baths, which probably involves swimming outdoors in the ocean for most people. —Angr 09:48, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

In eastern Oz we tend to say we're going to the pool (which includes any number of pools available), or more specifically, use the name of the leisure or swim centre (eg, I'm going to "Bubbles" or whatever). We use baths in the term "ocean baths" rather than "ocean pool", though they may be a built up swimming area around the beach and ocean, or a cemented tidal pool. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to be Latinate, you can call it a natatorium. That's what the building containing the swimming pool at my high school was named. Deor (talk) 10:39, 27 October 2008 (UTC)