Talk:Iraq War

Pending tasks for Iraq War:

Use <s> and </s> (aka. strikeout) when each of these are done: convert "200x in Iraq" articles (x==2...7 e.g. 2007 in Iraq) to Wikipedia:Summary style Wiki link the various Iraq War articles to relevant sections in this article Give full information for references that are currently only links to sources Keep the article NPOV by equally including material that both supports and doesn't support the Iraq War. A concise paragraph that includes all justifications for the war from American top officials as well as keep it NPOV by giving space to rebuttals.

Opening statement about WMD Intelligence

This statement "This assessment was supported by the U.K. intelligence services, but not by other countries such as France, Russia and Germany." is contrary to what I have heard. Even Scott Ritter, who is very critical of US policy, has written: "the intelligence services of France, Russia, Germany, Great Britain and Israel were noting that Iraq had failed to properly account for the totality of its past proscribed weapons programs, and in doing so left open the possibility that Iraq might retain an undetermined amount of WMD." Ritter notes that this is less than what the bush Administration has claimed, but it is more (and more accurate) than the information in the article. The article might benefit if it used more information from the WMD commission Report. Gaintes (talk) 01:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Incredibly Biased Article

This article is so biased it is frankly laughable. Among the innumberable lies and distortions in the article, the part that is particularly amusing is how it goes right from talk about how the United States is doomed to failure to talk about the aftermath of the war, i.e. the drawdown of US troops. It completely fails to mention the US victory in 2007. This article is nothing more than ultraliberal propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.226.95.18 (talk) 15:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

If the US was victorious in 2007, then why is a gradual drawdown necessary? Is the US victory similar to the British victory?--99.1.99.177 (talk) 20:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Because you usually drawdown your troops after you win unless your goal was to conquer, which in this case it wasn't? I could cite about 1,000 wars in which an Army went somewhere, won, and then left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.226.95.18 (talk) 21:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I live in the US and I must have missed the victory celebrations? I was here for all of 2007; when was the official victory? I can't believe I missed out on my Iraqi Freedom Party Whistle! csloat (talk) 21:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

If you want the US to lose the Iraq War, then I can see one having the POV which follows this bunk that the 2007 troop surge was ineffective---(incorrect by all responsible estimates). There will be plenty of “media articles” (and “studies”) published for years to support the view that ’07 was unsuccessful though . There was not a "Victory Party" for the Korean war, but the Korean war WAS a huge success, in preventing Communist China and North Korea from doing whatever they wanted (taking S. Korea and who knows what else). Like, Iraq, the Korea situation is an ongoing work -- without a finite victory day. Anyone denying that the US Troop Surge of 2007 was effective is believing brainwash from the left, or the spineless BBC (which is the same thing) rather than the voice of reason. The troop surge had a huge impact on the war. It was surprisingly effective in making the insurgent’s business less effective, and in making the Iraq War “winnable” (something that many contributors to this article do NOT want – A Coalition victory in Iraq). Also Spineless; the American people, with little or zero interest, or concern that the US and coalition turned the tide of a very unpopular war. The general public does not want to hear it (even more so outside US borders). This article will always be garbage, a ugly , terrible piece of junk - vandalized by POV Warriors who are out to prove we are losing this war, when in fact we are winning it. Bwebb00 (talk) 04:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

While I strongly agree with this opinion, this line of discussion (as yet) is not conducive to improving the article. We need to focus on what specifically is wrong with the article, and work to set the record straight one section at a time. On that note, where do you think would be a good place to start off? ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 04:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The average U.S. taxpayer has spent $1930.00 so far to finance the war (enough to pay the salary of every Iraqi for three years), and the U.S has almost lost 5,000 of its soldiers. Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction are no longer a threat to the United States homeland anymore. The U.S. was victorious in its mission, and the Iraqi people and government are now asking us to leave their country. How much more money and how many more lives do we need to spend, and what would be spending them for now? If the American people are "spineless", then why don't you finance and fight the war yourself?--99.1.99.177 (talk) 17:19, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Again, Wikipedia is not a forum for expressing your opinions or reciting your talking points. The purpose of this talk page is to discuss changes to the article. ~ S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 22:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

In that case, I would like to compliment the cost of the war section and suggest that more could be added about the impending US withdrawal.--99.1.99.177 (talk) 00:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Why is the Center for Public Integrity even mentioned in a supposed unbaised article? Most of the financial contributers to this organization are poltically-driven far-left figures (i.e. George Soros, Bill Moyers etc...)? Therefore this is an uncredible group who should not be cited in this work without a balanced reponse from a opposing second source. --Pennsylvania Penguin (talk) 19:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

This article does read like it was written by the "anti-war", I use that term loosely, left, rather than offering unbiased information. The irony of the democrats' talking points is that for a year Iraq has been moving toward self-sufficiency, and the counter insurgency strategy was a success. But Afghanistan and the "good war" is a stalemate with little future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.87.1.204 (talk) 03:07, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the mainstream media focuses on the criticisms of the war, I came here looking to find a fair comparison of the problems with the war as well as the positive effects. I was surprised to see this article also is biased towards the criticisms. Surely some good has, is, or is expected to come from the war, and yet that seems to be completely lacking in this article. Just as a basic example, this article talks about the costs of the war, and yet has no discussion about the economic effects of the influx of some of that money into the private sector, creating jobs for example. Googling for positive outcomes of the war finds discussions such as this: http://community.comcast.net/comcastportal/board/message?board.id=cityhall&message.id=204301 - obviously this would all need to be researched and sourced, but surely some of these would be appropriate for inclusion in this article. Benjam47 (talk) 08:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

George W. Bush on God

I note in this edit that the cause attributed to George W. Bush's beliefs in God has been removed. Why is such removal warranted? I didn't see any reason, so I replaced it along with one of the oil cause sources. Neut Nuttinbutter (talk) 04:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

4 paragraphs for the lead is fine, but some of the paragraphs seem awfully long. Debating the specifics of a quote seems like something that could be done further down in the article, perhaps in the lead the idea could be summarized. I just think it would be beneficial to trim about 10-20% of the lead in to the main article, and I'd welcome any trimmings you or others see.--Nosfartu (talk) 04:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The theme you are discussing is mentioned more in these articles: [1] [2] [3] [4]

I really think it would be best to discuss these and the specific of the Bush quote under the rationale for war section, and to just briefly summarize the theme/idea in the lead. That being said, I would just like to make the lead slightly shorter.--Nosfartu (talk) 06:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

There does not seem to be a rationale for war section, there's just a chronology followed by troop deployments, etc. The reasons for the war are summarized in the intro. Is it fair to include some but exclude others? Neut Nuttinbutter (talk) 08:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is the tail end of what is currently footnote 64, the Washington Post article:

"This time there is a response: "We checked contemporaneous notes from the meeting with President Abbas and did not find a single reference to God," a senior administration official told us. "The closest thing we could find that the president said is: 'My government and I personally are committed to the vision of a Palestinian state.' "

Back in 2004, a White House spokesman told Mennonite Weekly columnist Brubaker that Bush "likely talked about his own faith," as he often does, but did not say God speaks through him.

Brubaker, in a follow-up column, said he checked with his source, an Amish reporter, who rechecked with attendees and had gotten different wording from several of them. "But Bush has said similar things on other occasions," Brubaker noted, citing Bob Woodward's "Plan of Attack," where Bush says he's "surely not going to justify the war based on God . . . Nevertheless . . . I pray I be as good a messenger of his will as possible."

" 'Messenger of his will [or] God speaks through me,' " Brubaker wrote. "The difference seems rather fine."

The question is, how is it that Bush so confuses groups as diverse as the Palestinians and the Amish? Is it the Andover-Texas accent?"

The article earlier says,"Substantially different, we felt. Moreover, this is Abbas's account in Arabic of what Bush said in English, written down by a note-taker in Arabic and then put back into English."

There's nothing wrong with reporting the "story" as weak as it is. It is unconscionable to report only part of the story. And WP:POV.Student7 (talk) 11:34, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

And what is this doing in the lead anyway?Student7 (talk) 11:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The lead starts with the names and a brief description of the war, lists its officially-stated causes, and then closes with a paragraph on its effects and status. Is there a more informative structure for the intro than names-start-causes-effects-status? That seems fairly standard for lengthy current events articles. Inspiration from God is sourced as one of the officially stated causes. Neut Nuttinbutter (talk) 18:14, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Since this has been removed again, without discussion, here was the original text:

Palestinian leaders have claimed George Bush said "God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did".(The Independent: "Bush: God told me to invade Iraq" by Rupert Cornwell, 7 October 2005.) Bush may have actually said, "God inspired me to hit al Qaeda, and so I hit it. And I had the inspiration to hit Saddam, and so I hit him."(Washington Post: "George W. Bush and the G-Word")

What exactly is the objection? Is divine inspiration one of the reasons for the war or not? Neut Nuttinbutter (talk) 15:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The objection is that there is some rather substantial doubt as to whether Bush did, in fact, say what the article claims to have said. The Washington Post article at least makes clear that Bush may or may not have said this. It is not reporting that he did say this, contrary to the sentence in the article. Since the statement is completely unconfirmed, I believe it should be removed from the article entirely. Anyway, I have flagged it as {{failed verification}}, since the current wording suggests that the Post confirmed this statement, which is false. siℓℓy rabbit (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Really? Then why was it moved to the "Criticisms" section? There are plenty of sources which indicate that Bush seeks answers from God, and acts when he believes he is inspired. Calling that a criticism is biased towards atheists and against divine-interventionists. Neut Nuttinbutter (talk) 20:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I found this reference which discusses four different translations of the same phrase: by Nabil Shaath, Haaretz's translation of Mahmoud Abbas's recounting of Bush ("provided a translation of Bush's words into English that was remarkably similar"), Arabic speaker at The Washington Post (whose quote is in the article now), and Mahmoud Abbas's subsequent revision of his comments. Spring Back (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I have adjusted the attribution to be congruent with the first three quotes. Neut Nuttinbutter (talk) 20:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

This has stood for more than a week as Rationale for the Iraq War#Divine inspiration:

Nabil Shaath told the BBC that according to minutes of a conference with Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, Bush said, "God inspired me to hit al Qaeda, and so I hit it. And I had the inspiration to hit Saddam, and so I hit him." Haaretz provided a similar translation of the minutes. When an Arabist at the Washington Post translated the same transcript, Bush was said to have indicated that God inspired him to, "end the tyranny in Iraq," instead.

But clearly that is too long for the intro paragraph which tries to list the entire rationale, so I am replacing it with this: "Bush said either that God inspired him to end the tyranny in Iraq, or to hit Saddam.(ref>Kessler, G. (October 9, 2005) 'Interpretation of Bush's Comments Reignites Debate Washington Post</ref>" Neut Nuttinbutter (talk) 02:24, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The article currently states that G. Bush told the "Palestenians" that the Iraq war was inspired by God. I would bet that this is a distortion of his actual words. Most churches, including G. Bush's, were against the invasion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.31.43.225 (talk) 00:30, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Orphans

Some sources with credibility claim that the number of orphans cannot be estimated. The UN appears to have no such reluctance. An editor has quoted a figure of 5 million. That is, 5 million underage children have lost both parents. While there is leeway here for abandoned children, children "effectively" orphaned, "around" 10 million dead parents does not square with the total number of dead, which is supposedly 1 million, and probably not right either. Remember that the 10 million does not include those who died whose children are adults or who had no children. There are around 29 million people in Iraq. So by this figure, 1/3 of everybody has died. This does not make sense. No matter how many "sources" say it, it does not compute. Student7 (talk) 01:34, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Some families have multiple children and sometimes parents abandon their children. The sources are reliable, and I question a) whether you have read them and b) what sources you use to support your reasoning. Anyways, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is attributed verifiability, not truth. Just because the war was a failure, it doesn't mean the article should be whitewashed.--99.130.168.83 (talk) 04:23, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

"Abeer Chalabi, head of the state orphanages section of the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs, estimates more than 4 million orphans and says the number may be exaggerated "but to have so many is a catastrophe." Iraqi orphanages have the capacity to look after no more than 26,000 children, but the government says it has only 700 children in its institutions. This is due mainly to the Iraqi tradition that obligates relatives to take in orphaned or abandoned children, but many of these families cannot afford to care for them and send them out during the day to beg or gather scrap metal"

That is in the orphans section. Where did you see 5 million? Were you the one that fixed that, or does it mention that number elsewhere in the article? Then it needs to be fixed. Either way, you were absolutley right student7. 99.130.168.83, you seem to overinterpret the verifibility policy. It means that you can't add statements just because you know them to be true; they still have to be verified with a source. A source that mentions something that obviously isn't correct is in no way considered reliable. When verifying a statement, the source has to be reliable. Use common sense. Most people prefer an unsourced true statement to an sourced, false statement.

--Abusing (talk) 07:12, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I concede that there were already orphans or children who had lost their father already as the result of the disastrous Iraq-Iran War. A cap on orphans can be made from those casualty figures I would assume. Student7 (talk) 13:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

If the number is 4 million instead of 5 million, this is fine as long as the information is attributed. This still wouldn't tally with your basic math which makes way too many simplistic assumptions.--99.130.168.83 (talk) 15:13, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's say that all the 1 million estimated civilian deaths (same place as the "orphans" estimate?) were all parents. And putting aside murders by Saddam (I know - they never had it so good) and their war with Iran. 500,000 families. Each with ten children. Still seems like a lot to me. The problem is the figure doesn't stand up to any cursory analysis at all. It's a "top of the head" figure from somebody. Not based on any known population sampling or anything. Student7 (talk) 12:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, if you would actually read the articles which cite the statistic you would see that they are official governmental statistics from the Iraqi Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs. If your "top of the head" arithmetic/analysis appears in a reliable source, then by all means add it. Otherwise you are leaving out many things such as runaways, abandoned children, families with multiple children, ...

Wikipedia is predicated on reliable sources, so it would be good if you searched for an outside expert who also wants to minimize the number of reported orphans.--70.236.79.188 (talk) 03:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Not trying to minimize it. Trying to rationalize it. Whatever its faults, Arab society is known neither for runaways nor abandoned children. And the figures suggest wholesale something: abandonment? Runaways? The "ten children per family" remains. Not really likely, is it? I'm getting the same figure everyone else is, which has to be used. This is my first experience with obviously poor data that is properly sourced. Student7 (talk) 18:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. It's of course a very high figure, but maybe we could try again to rationalize: The first assumption "That is, 5 million underage children have lost both parents" might be incorrect. According to my Collins, an 'orphan' is "a child, one or (more common) both of whose parents are dead". You assume here it must be both. According to my Arabic dictionary, and that's consistent with what I recall being used by Iraqis, a yatim (=orphan) is "a child whose father is dead". So all children who lost their father are called orphans. That could be a true figure: the first statistic I came across gives average fertility rate in Iraq as 5.3 children. Assume a million people have been killed - that's the figure Student7 said is given, even if it's also quite high, assume that most of those killed were men, not women - and you reach the number, or at least the 4.5 million, which seems to be more accurate. Any Iraqi there out who could confirm this use of the Arabic term orphan? If you agree I suggest we introduce a note into the section saying that "'orphans' may refer to children who lost their father or both parents" or something like this. --Ilyacadiz (talk) 21:22, 14 October 2008 (UTC

Now I've added the clarification in the text, sourcing to Muslim orphans and the shari’a.... By the way, it's not only shari'a but common Arabic use, but I couldn't find a dictionary to link to. Hope it's okay with all.--Ilyacadiz (talk) 19:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Infobox about occupation only?

The infobox at top right seems, in its chart of belligerents, only to show the balance in the counterinsurgency, and not in the original invasion. Obviously, it hasn't always been USA et al and Iraq on the same side, and perhaps there should be a split infobox or multiple sections. Despite the common use of the phrase "Iraq War", there really have been several different wars--one leading into another--since 3/19/03. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.10.172 (talk) 07:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

An excellent point. The problem, of course, is to ensure no WP:OR which is difficult since its easier for the media to treat it as the same thing and therefore everyone else to blindly follows as they always do. Student7 (talk) 13:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

If the article is broken down so that each of the conflict's stages are listed with an infobox, that should be alright. Since Iraqi deaths in 2003 can be mainly attributed to allied forces and now Iraqi deaths are mostly contributed to foreign fighters, insurgents or terrorists. Since the conflict evolved from what it was in in 2003 (or even 2005) it should be broken down by (and not limited to) The 2003 Invasion, The Occupation of Iraq (2003-2005), The Iraqi Transitional Government (2005), The first elected government (2006), The Surge (2007-2008), Coalition Troop Drawdowns (2008-Present). Iraqis who fought in 2003 fought for the Baath regime, today they fight for their elected government. Its seems more fair, informational, and accurrate. --Pennsylvania Penguin (talk) 13:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Penguin, that kind of infobox breakdown would be pretty difficult to edit--WWII had a lot more phases and theatres and that article only has one infobox. So, I think we can work with the main infobox to reflect the different phases/combatants efficiently and clearly. The current infobox does have a kind of separation with just a line, but something clearer could probably be designed. Publicus 20:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes but the WWII article never deals with the insurgencies that took place in Japan and Germany after the war. Many American troops still died even after the Japanese surrendered due to insurgents. The same holds true with Germany, via the The Nazi Werwolves. Iraq is an unconventional war unlike WWII, meaning it focuses mostly on nation building and making sure Iraq is stable before declaring victory. Plus during each phase of the war, the combatants and generals are different. Which makes the war more confusing. That's why it's probably more accurate to use various infoboxes. --Pennsylvania Penguin (talk) 18:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

PKK

Pkk is a terrorist organization by Turkey,USA and European Unıon and other countrıes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.252.200.60 (talk) 11:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

as far i know neither the pkk nor the turkish government are involved in this war the pkk has no connection to the war in iraq and has even supported the actions of the united states and stated several times that it wont attack us troops or positions the pkk and the turks fight their own war in turkey only in the border region thre is sometimes fighting but to link this up with the iraq war is plain wrong and i suppose politically motivitated to kill the kurdish question in turkey and to change the fact that there is a civil war in turkey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.220.46.25 (talk) 16:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. I wouldn't enter into political motivations, but I think that the PKK-Turkey conflict is not at the right place here, we could establish a separate entry. When I came across the PKK's flag at the header I was very much confused, because you expect to find there groups that fight for power in Iraq and connected with the USA-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. And that's not the case for the PKK, I think they had bases in Iraqi Kurdistan well before the 2003 Iraq war. Do you agree to move that part to a separate entry? Ilyacadiz (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

The PKK and Turkey are very involved in this war. Currently, there are Turkish military operations in Iraqi Kurdistan and the PKK is using Iraqi Kurdistan as a safe haven to attack Turkish forces across the border. Several hundred PKK and around 50 Turkish troops have been killed fighting in Iraq or on the border-that certainly qualifies as inclusion into the overall Iraq War. Publicus 20:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

There is no doubt about these facts. But I still doubt that that can be adscribed to the Iraq War. Very similar battles between Turkey and the PKK were going on in Iraq well before 2003: see [5] So that is a feature which has not very much to do with the 2003-until present war. It's misleading, at least in the header, to put Turkey on the US-side, as Turkey was not and is not part of the Coalition (even if it is of course a staunch US-Ally) and the PKK does definitely not fight on the side of the Insurgency, Baath Party, Mahdy Army or whoever is putting roadside bombs there. The PKK is quite close to the Kurdish peshmerga (Barzani etc.) (which are allied to the US); they do not fight each other and there is no evidence of US-soldiers fighting against PKK (even if the PKK is labelled s terrorist by the US). Let's give them a separate entry, of course linked here (and linked to Turkey–Kurdistan Workers Party conflict)--Ilyacadiz (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC).

Ilyacadiz, I do agree with you--the Turkish-PKK conflict is an older one that doesn't necessarily fit into a neat box on either side of this overall conflict. The main reason for putting PKK on the side of other insurgents, has to do with a couple of basic points: 1) the PKK is classified as a terrorist organization by both the U.S. and the E.U.; 2) Turkey is a member of NATO. I'm not trying to make a value judgment on the rights of Kurds or the sovereignty of Turkey, but with those two points in mind--it seems pretty clear to me which side to place the PKK and Turkey. Now, the point about whether to even mention the PKK-Turkey conflict at all is another difficult one. Basically, I'm going on the premise that any conflicts within the borders of Iraq, during the Iraq war, should be somehow covered in this article. As I'm sure you know, the Iraq war is a difficult war to place the various combatants--for instance, should the Mahdi Army be placed on the same side as the Sunni insurgents? Also, what about the Awakening Councils? A couple of years ago, many members of the Awakening councils were part of the greater Sunni insurgency, now they're listed as an important ally with the coalition forces. Technically, they are supporting the current coalition goal, but they are also not "allies" of the coalition--merely stabilizing forces who have agreed to stop fighting the coalition so they can fight other tribes, or al Qaeda, or Shia, etc. So you see it is a difficult conflict to determine which side to place the various combatants. I do agree that within the current info-box, the PKK-Turkey conflict is not clearly defined, but they do need to be included since Iraqi Kurdistan is a very important power within Iraq and these Kurdish issues are becoming more important all the time. Publicus 21:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Difficult indeed, it's all so mixed up in Iraq... Obviously, even different groups of the Insurgency might fight occasionally against each other, but at least for the moment being they share a common enemy and a common goal (to expulse the Coalition troops), so they can be listed on one side of the info-box. For the PKK I think it's different and I'm not convinced that your point 1 is too tight: the PKK is labelled as terrorist, but that does not mean it must be anti-US, nor is the Iranian PMOI. There is even a small Kurdish guerrilla, the PJAK, in the Iraqi mountains which is fighting against Iran in much the same way as the PKK fights Turkey. Essentially, they are a branch of the PKK (a friend of mine published recently a good report about that). But as Iran is an enemy of the USA, they are definitely pro-US... Now, of course I'm not suggesting to reverse the sides of Turkey and PKK in the info-box, that would be absurd, but I think putting them just in line with the rest is oversimplifying. I would just put a link telling: 'For the Turkey-PKK conflict, please see there' or something like that, because the article states clearly: "This article is about the war that began in 2003" and the PKK-conflict doesn't fit into that. Another option would be to put them into a kind of separate box (I'm not too good with these details). In the article itself there is a short and correct section about 'Tensions with Turkey' as there is also one about 'Tensions with Iran', both are necessary, but Iran is definitely not labelled as a belligerent in the info-box. Give it another thought... --Ilyacadiz (talk) 10:22, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Since the goal seems to be avoiding confusion, I'll play around with some formatting and search around wikipedia for any other examples we can copy/use for the PKK-Turkey issue. Also, I did have PJAK and Iran in the infobox awhile back, around the end of 2007 when they had their border skirmish--but too many people had issues with that and it was taken out, which had more to do with Iran's nuclear program than the PJAK-Iran conflict, which was my intention. Ah well. If you can think of suggestions on separating, let me know. Cheers. Publicus 21:34, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at my sandbox, I've tried to copy something I saw here, that may help. Thoughts welcome. Publicus

I think that looks almost great. Anyhow, as the conflict goes on and will surely become even more complicated than that Italian one you took the idea from :) we better start trying right away. I think we could introduce some white spaces to have all belligerents neatly opposite their enemies; to do that I've copied your design into my Sandbox, lines don't match exactly, but I don't know why, I fear it's the flags which probably aren't all the same heighth. Have a look, maybe you can improve it further. Thanks!Ilyacadiz (talk) 00:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I like it. Your version is a little cleaner. Let's try it and see how it does. Publicus 22:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Coalition Members

Poland has now pulled out of the country completely to my understanding. LA Times article. Perhaps we need to put a (2003-2008) next to them in the info box? (SSJPabs (talk) 23:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC))

Date of the start and end of the conflict

If nobody minds I will put in the date section of the article in the infobox three distinct periods just like it is in the article Second Chechen War:

Active battle phase: March 20, 2003 — April 30, 2003 Insurgency: May 1, 2003 - May 11, 2008 Sporadic fighting: May 12, 2008 - Present

I think everybody understands the date of May 1, 2003 (the day Bush famously said Mission accomplished) as for May 11, 2008, that's the day a cease-fire was signed with the Mahdi army, after that there were no more large-scale battles between the Insurgents and the Coalition. If the war flares up again we will revert it to just March 20, 2003 - ongoing. Hope nobody has a problem with this.89.216.235.26 (talk) 12:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The reasoning presented is understandable, however it could be stated better and may be overly simplistic. More importantly, it would need to be well-sourced.--134.68.77.116 (talk) 17:50, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice job,

I don't see how anyone can call this an encyclopedia article in seriousness. It's articles like this that are the reason professors explicitly instruct their students not to use wikipedia as a source. Kellenwright (talk) 07:25, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is indeed written from a conservative POV, and most professors would thus tear it to shreds.--69.208.141.201 (talk) 22:41, 29 October 2008 (UTC)