Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mark Speight/archive2

Mark Speight

Nominator(s): User:How do you turn this on

Failed FAC about 3 weeks ago. Had a peer review, where I got some more advice. Still no free picture, though I am waiting for one from the Speight Foundation.Now has a free picture. Thanks for your comments. – How do you turn this on (talk) 17:49, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support Much improved article. Kudos to HDYTTO for sticking with it and getting it to such a high quality. Best of all, has avoided hagiography. --Dweller (talk) 18:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
• Images I am assuming that a different image than Image:SeeitSawitBBC.jpg will be used for free use, or is this the same image that you are waiting on permission for? If so then you can remove the nonfree image. What's the status on the Speight Foundation? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Check the article. I'm now waiting for permissions-otrs to confirm. – How do you turn this on (talk) 18:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it checks out so far... I have no idea how long it takes to verify permissions on OTRS, but just note here when it goes through and I can check it. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 18:40, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know someone who has access that can verify this? – How do you turn this on (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I have OTRS permissions access. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 19:04, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Great! Can you see if you can find the image. My email should be quite obvious. – How do you turn this on (talk) 19:11, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Um... it might help if you gave me the URL... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 20:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Mark_Speight.jpg – How do you turn this on (talk) 20:23, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, found the ticket and verified. Images check out. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 20:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

For the record. Giggy (talk) 22:58, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment - sources were good at the last FAC, and still look good. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment "Speight regularly toured with Speight of the Art, a series of art workshops he ran for children. He was involved in charity work; he became President of the Muscular Dystrophy Campaign's Young Pavement Artists Competition, originally a one-off year-long project that lasted eight years, and a spokesperson for ChildLine;[2][10] for Comic Relief in 2007, he hosted the Müller Big Art Project in Trafalgar Square." The second line here, is extremely long and has several comma splices and misused [;]-signs. Also the first sentence seems disjointed from the rest, if those workshops were charity, I would start with the first part of the second sentence, if not, I would put the info about the workshops in another paragraph. - Mgm|^(talk) 11:44, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Better? – How do you turn this on (talk) 20:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

You still had too many commas trying to run too many subjects together in one sentences. How about my rewrite? - Mgm|^(talk) 12:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

"He was a spokesperson for ChildLine; and for Comic Relief in 2007 and he hosted the Müller Big Art Project in Trafalgar Square." That doesn't make sense now. – How do you turn this on (talk) 14:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Reworded. – How do you turn this on (talk) 16:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Huh? He presented Comic Relief? With the way you worded it previously I had no idea that is what you meant. Still, I can't find which of your references backs that up. Which one is it? - Mgm|^(talk) 20:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Any better? – How do you turn this on (talk) 21:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support. It took a while, but I think we finally got it right. - Mgm|^(talk) 23:55, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose for prose. Examples:

• Opening sentence is clumsy with its use of "among other programmes" - would it be better to cut that and just say "best known for presenting etc"?
• "Growing up in Tettenhall, Wolverhampton, he left school at the age of 16 to become a cartoonist" - why the strange tense in the first half? "the age of" is redundant.
• "He subsequently gained a degree" - "subsequently" is unnecessary, he obviously didn't do it beforehand. "gained a degree" sounds odd to me.
• Last sentence of paragraphs uses "presenters" and "presented" next to each other - bit jarring.
• Not prose, but is the pantomime notable enough to be in the lead (don't know enough about him to judge)?
• "he was initially arrested" - "initially" is redundant
• "from a stroke allegedly" - "allegedly" is a weasel word - who is alleging this?

Trebor (talk) 16:24, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Fixed these points. I couldn't think of a better way to reword the last sentence of the first paragraph though. It sounds fine to me though. The allegedly was claimed by the family of Speight, if I recall that's what the reference says. If you have any other points, please bring them up. Thanks. – How do you turn this on (talk) 16:38, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

• support - Lovely prose. I'll tune it up as best I can, even further. — Ceran → (Talk) (email) 22:34, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
• I have to say I don't agree with Trebor on all points. Sometimes readability is more important than cutting as many words as possible. In particular: "In January 2008, Speight found the body of his fiancée in the bath of their London flat and he was arrested on suspicion of her murder. Ultimately he was not charged with any offence." These lines are disjointed and by removing the word 'initially' we have no idea when he was arrested or after how much investigation. On the other hand, is there another way to charge someone? I think we could possibly drop "with any offence", but I'm not sure about that. - Mgm|^(talk) 22:44, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion "In January 2008, Speight found the body of his fiancée in the bath of their London flat. Initially, he was arrested on suspicion of her murder, but ultimately he was not charged (with any offence)." - Mgm|^(talk) 22:44, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

"Sometimes readability is more important than cutting as many words as possible" - it's rare that cutting out redundant words will not improve readability. "with any offence" is debatable - if you don't put it in, you are explicitly saying only that he wasn't charged with murder (but he still may have been charged with something else), however it's probably still quite implicit. With use of "initially", what is the difference in meaning between the following sentences?

• "Speight found the body of his fiancée in the bath of their London flat and was initially arrested on suspicion of her murder"
• "Speight found the body of his fiancée in the bath of their London flat and was arrested on suspicion of her murder"

The use of "initially" doesn't give any further idea of when he was arrested or after how much investigation. "Initially" just means first (before something else) but the only thing that happened after was his not being charged, and that clearly couldn't have happened before. Unrelatedly, does anyone know if "Collins's" should be changed to "Collins'" (I'm not sure)? Trebor (talk) 01:16, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

• I changed that sentence, at least the "he" to "was", but as for the rest of the sentence I don't think it really matters whether initially is in there, but I'd prefer it not. — Ceran → (Talk) (email) 12:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

  It's Collins's - this was discussed on the peer review. – How do you turn this on (talk) 12:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

  Is the new version better? – How do you turn this on (talk) 12:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

• Support Excellant work by HDYTTO. My only gripe is that "Speight" should probably be used less often. I think it should be replaced by "the presenter" or something along those lines. It may not be perfect, but it is certainly among our best work. Congrats ~one of many editorofthewikis ^{(talk/contribs/editor review)}~ 02:23, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Variation is a good thing, but "the presenter" is even more clunky. A few well-placed 'he's would work even better. - 131.211.151.245 (talk) 09:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)