Talk:Lysanias

I felt the article should make it clearer that Lysanias could be either one or two people, and that there is a debate about it. I've "been bold" and changed it, as it became easier than explaining here what I had in mind; but if anyone dislikes what I've done, please feel free to change it, or, if you disagree, to revert it.Swanny18 14:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

PS.I've just looked at the edit history: I can't believe how much red type is there; I only re-worked a couple of sentences! Swanny18 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved essay

Someone has written an essay to prove that the inscription cannot mean the biblical Lysanias. Interesting tho this is, I think that it fails the 'original research' criterion for inclusion in Wikipedia. Rather it belongs on someone's web page, with a link to it on this one. If there are scholars who have expressed doubts, then a summary with reference would appropriately be inserted under the biblical Lysanias section?

I've also pruned and reorganised the page; it was rather repetitive, full of unreferenced assertions, and too concerned to argue for or against the identity of the two figures. I hope it helps and that I haven't committed the sin of POV either way. What I tried to do was let the data speak for itself. Roger Pearse 16:41, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Critique of the archaeology theory

Let's consider the archaeological evidence for this Lysanias. It is a fragment whose interpretation, it is claimed, talks of Tiberius and his mother Livia as "August lords", Κυριωι Σεβαστωι. The specific phrase in fact only apparently occurs in this fragment, so the evidence breaks down to the term Σεβαστωι. However, coins minted in Smyrna in 10 BCE show images of Augustus and Livia with the caption Σεβαστωι Σμυρναιωι, the "Smyrnean Augusti", ie Augustus and Livia were referred to as Σεβαστωι in 10 BCE, so the fragment could easily refer to a period circa 10 BCE. We also know that during the life of Augustus, a reference to him and his wife as the Θεωι Σεβαστωι, "August gods", was included in the mysteries of Demeter at Ephesus. This means there is no reason to believe that the term Σεβαστωι should be restricted to the time of Tiberius or later, so Nymphaeus, the freedman of Aetus, if the inscription dated to circa 10 BCE, could easily have known of a street that the historically known Lysanias established less than thirty years earlier.

That being the case, the temple inscription is of no use for dating the Lysanias it mentions to a time other than that of the Lysanias known from history. Josephus mentioning the kingdom of Lysanias regarding properties gifted by Caligula and Claudius is nothing strange, given the probable long lasting memory of this friend of the Jews. Such long lasting associations between people and places was not uncommon: one need only think of Caesarea Philippi, named after the tetrarch Philip II who died in 34 CE, yet preserved in the New Testament.

The only issue left to be dealt with is the reference in Luke to a Lysanias, tetrarch of Abilene, at a time when Philip II was tetrarch of the region of Iturea and Trachonitis according to the gospel of Luke. It is interesting that Iturea once contained Abilene, though it may have been separated out in one of the various land redistributions.

The issue cannot be resolved due to insufficient evidence to support this second Lysanias, though on face value it would seem difficult for the gospel account to reflect history. It is unlikely that an otherwise unheard of Lysanias of the same name as a well known ruler appeared 60 years later.

Returning Lysanias to history

The editor who has removed evidence from this entry seems more interested in apologetics than in getting at the history of the matter. The attempt to put the figure mentioned in Luke on the same level as the verified Lysanias shows no historical methodology. Repetition of errors does not make the error any more correct. The conjectures on the fragment from Abila mentioning Lysanias has been shown to be baseless from the coin evidence cited in the article. Removing it only seems to show a desire to hid facts. If you cannot check the evidence leave it alone. F.F. Bruce is a Christian text scholar and apologist who shows no interest in history. He has no place in an article with pretensions of history. --Doktorspin (talk) 12:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

• I have this page on my watchlist - please keep discussion here.
  
• Doktorspin
  

1. When I went to http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/augustus/i.html, I didn't see a coin such as you described to support Augustus + Livia = Augusti. Please update the link.
   
2. Your first cite of Wildwinds isn't supportable ("you should be able to find one"). You need to find a specific example that can be examined for veracity, and cite it with "Retrieved on XXXX date and time."
   
3. If Wildwinds is really that variable (i.e. you can't count on a cite staying up for any length of time), you should try to find other sources. Using Wildwinds not only opens your cites to later challenge if the cite goes down, but also borders dangerously close to WP:SYNTHESIS (to cite coins as evidence rather than historians).

• Roger Pearse
  

1. Per http://www.worldinvisible.com, Bruce does come across as an apologist. That doesn't mean he should be excluded altogether, but it does indicate his reliability is open to question unless backed by neutral sources. Doktorspin seems to concur in this regard; I haven't seen him remove anything based on Bruce. Please provide examples if he has, and I'll take a look.
   
2. Stylistically, Doktorspin's wording is cleaner and easier to follow. On sentences where the meaning is not in dispute, you should probably defer to his wording.
   
3. Please note that putting line breaks after every sentence is not a particularly good way to format a page.
   

arimareiji (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2008 (UTC)