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November 9

Willy on wheels

What did he do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.44.196 (talk) 01:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

See User:Dcoetzee/Willy on Wheels:A Case Study, Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Willy on Wheels and Wiki wars. Nanonic (talk) 02:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Drying a down jacket

I have a down jacket which ended up getting very wet yesterday in the rain. I hung it over the back of a chair last night, and it's now dry, but parts of it no longer feel like they have much down in - they're less "puffy" - presumably due to the feathers packing together.

1. Should I have dried it in some other way than just hanging it over a chair? 2. Any suggestions for puffing it back out again?

Note that I'm not looking for instructions on *washing* the jacket, just drying it out after rain.

I guess a further question might be whether down jackets are generally considered OK in the rain, or if one should avoid it where possible.

Thanks. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 11:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Getting a down jacket wet will not hurt it as long as you dry it ASAP. The down has now matted together, and may not be really dry. Simply put it in the dryer for a bit— it will ensure it is dry and the tumbling will free the matted area. I have down jackets and sleeping bags that I machine wash and dry with no ill effects. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 12:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

An old trick is to tumble dry (at a low temp) with a pair of clean tennies to help break up the clumps. Saintrain (talk) 15:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

The OP's ISP shows him/her to be in the UK, so perhaps it should be said that "tennies" = "trainers." Deor (talk) 17:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I have tried the tennis shoe trick; tennis balls are also recommended. It is supposed to keep the down from matting and help to restore the loft. I have tried it both ways with the same results. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 17:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Why use tennies? Because elevenies are too big and ninies are too small. --Trovatore (talk) 08:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Where did the tradition of 3 cheers come from

Three cheers for this - three cheers for that. You see it at sporting games, political rallies, movie reviews, etc.

Where did the tradition of three cheers originate from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rob schellenberg (talk • contribs) 14:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

We have an article, cheering, that discusses origins on cheering in general, although it doesn't seem to mention the tradition of 3 cheers specifically. --Tango (talk) 16:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

There is some info in our article on Hip Hip Hooray but not much. Nanonic (talk) 16:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Sell home

Which saint is buried in the yard of the home to be sold to help sell the home?68.105.134.134 (talk) 15:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Mary's husband, Saint Joseph. See Burying Saint Joseph to Sell Your Home. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 15:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

He is supposed to be buried upside down, but facing the house or facing away from it? Edison (talk) 22:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I added the missing m from the above link. This site which also sells home burying kits, sorry that's home sellers kit, says he should face the house, though the Straight Dope says either way is fine. Anyway there is plenty of information available and it turns out you don't even need a statue, check out the bald stuff. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 01:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Why hasn't Missouri declared yet?

After all, it is now 3 days since the presidential election? 92.20.38.93 (talk) 16:45, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

They are still looking at provisional ballots. It is close enough that they could matter even though it is unlikely they will tip things (Obama would have to win over 80% of them to pull ahead). Provisional ballots are those that are cast by people whose voting status wasn't clear on election day. It takes some time. Normally it isn't close enough to worry about them. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 21:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I imagine that their enthusiasm for going hell-for-leather in counting/verifying these other votes is greatly reduced by the knowledge that it doesn't matter a damn what the result actually is. SteveBaker (talk) 21:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary - our status as the Missouri bellwether is of great pride to Missourians, we'd hate to lose it! -Elmer Clark (talk) 02:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Um..."A bellwether is any entity in a given arena that serves to...presage future happenings." - you can't presage future happenings a week after they've happened! (Also - a 'bellwether' was originally a castrated goat...no, really!) SteveBaker (talk) 05:24, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Crime in New York City

Hi, I'm moving temporarily to New York City and am searching for an apartment. Do anyone know of a site that shows registered crime levels in different parts of the city? I've heard that problems can be quite localized to specific streets etc, but anything that show (violent?) crimes by district/area/etc (perhaps linked with an online map solution) would be great. Thanks! Another European (talk) 18:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This (a google-maps map of murders) is a couple of years old, but seems to fit the bill. Fribbler (talk) 18:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! (any other hints appreciated as well...) Another European (talk) 20:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if this is true for NY, but in some jurisdictions there is a lot of crime recorded as geographically happening in police stations - e.g. bringing a suspect in for something, emptying his pockets and finding drugs, so charging him with possession. So perversely and counter-intuitively, the areas around police stations look unsafe -- a statistical anomaly. BrainyBabe (talk) 18:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Pancreas

I'm researching the pancreas but cannot find any interesting facts. Could anyone with any facts of info please help me, Jenny —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.105.177.45 (talk) 19:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll suggest that many people, even college-educated baby boomers like myself, are only vaguely aware of this organ's function ("produces insulin") till their family physician informs them they've got high blood sugar and are at risk for adult-onset Type 2 diabetes and its complications. Perhaps this isn't "interesting" per se, but I assure you it's quite relevant and may help people become aware and even spare them suffering in the long run. -- Deborahjay (talk) 19:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Does our article on the pancreas help? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:59, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link to the pancreas in Gray's Anatomy if that helps. [1]. Richard Avery (talk) 07:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

pancreatic cancer has a bad prognosis, look it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.220.53.59 (talk) 11:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Hah, I did this in biology! The pancreas also produces digestive enzymes. Doesn't sound interesting but you'd be up shit creek without the pancreas. -- _{Escape Artist Swyer} ^Talk _{Contributions} 17:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Vampires

Is there a list of real-life vampires? --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 22:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Not a factual one. Edison (talk) 22:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, there are vampire bats, of course, and mosquitoes of various kinds. There's even a moth species that drinks blood, but I don't recall which one. You may be interested in our articles on clinical vampirism and the even sadder vampire lifestyle. Matt Deres (talk) 22:13, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 22:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Also see Category:Vampirism_(crime), which lists people like Vlad the Impaler and Elizabeth de Bathory. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

There is List of vampires in folklore and mythology - some of those may have been based on real people. SN0WKITT3N 11:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It all depends on what you specify as the defining qualities of a vampire. I was thinking of the Bram Stoker/Bela Lugosi canon. People who think they are vampires are not vampires in that sense, nor are mosquitos or bats. Edison (talk) 20:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I saw a TV program last night about a real life case in Wales where a young man killed an elderly widow, removed her heart, squeezed all its blood out into a saucepan, and drank the blood. He was obsessed with vampirism etc. Whether this grotesque behaviour makes him a vampire or simply a loony is a moot point. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Golf

What is better in golf, an albatross or a hole in one? An albatrosss is less strokes under par, but a hole in one is less strokes overall. So which is better? JCI (talk) 22:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

For those pars for which it is meaningful to talk about scoring an albatross (i.e. with a par of 4 or more), an albatross is either equal to a hole in one, or more strokes overall (and so fewer strokes under par). Consequently, a hole in one is never inferior to an albatross, and typically superior. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 23:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Further, if I understand our article correctly, it's only an albatross if it's on a par 5 or higher, so as to avoid the possibility of scoring both a hole in one and an albatross, meaning that an albatross is always inferior to a hole in one. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 23:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess the question is how does a hole in one on a par 4, say, compare with an albatross on a par 5, say? I think the only way to answer it is statistically - does anyone have any statistics on how often these things are achieved? --Tango (talk) 23:30, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

One way might be to compare is how often someone gets an eagle on a par four (a two) versus on a par five (a three). In other words, is it easier to get the distance to a par 4 in one shot or to a par 5 in two shots (and then, following it up by holing the next shot)? I would guess that the latter is easier for good players; then, the business of making an albatross is simply the luck of holing that second shot (or, first shot for the par 4) compared to merely getting the distance. But a quick search online doesn't turn up any statistics about this. zafiroblue05 | Talk 00:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what "An albatrosss is less strokes under par" is meant to mean. An albatross is 3-under-par; a hole-in-one is 2, 3, or 4 under par depending on the par of the hole.

The best proxy for "better" would be rarity, since both are on the "good" side of "average". On this measure, an albatross is better. I don't have figures, but relative frequencies are as follows (here [x,y] means "par x, covered in y shots"):

[3,1] > [5,2] > [4,1] > [5,1]

On major golf tours, there is a hole-in-one in a good percentage of tournaments, but maybe one albatross per season. Below pro level, few players have the ability to reach a par-5 gren in 2 shots, so the figures are even more skewed. There have been very few par-4 holes-in-one at any level of golf, and none on par fives. jnestorius^(talk) 23:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

November 10

Verification of snopes.com opinions

A recent research of social security issues on snopes.com showed that a claim that congress had voted to grant social security benefits to illegal immigrants was false. A friend who I referenced this query to send me the following:

"For the past few years www.snopes.com has positioned itself, or others have labeled it, as the 'tell all final word' on any comment, claim and email.

But for several years people tried to find out who exactly was behind snopes.com. Only recently did Wikipedia get to the bottom of it - kinda makes you wonder what they were hiding. Well, finally we know. It is run by a husband and wife team - that's right, no big office of investigators and researchers, no team of lawyers. It's just a mom-and-pop operation that began as a hobby.

David and Barbara Mikkelson in the San Fernando Valley of California started the website about 13 years ago - and they have no formal background or experience in investigative research. After a few years it gained popularity believing it to be unbiased and neutral, but over the past couple of years people started asking questions who was behind it and did they have a selfish motivation? The reason for the questions - or skepticisms - is a result of snopes.com claiming to have the bottom line facts to certain questions or issue when in fact they have been proven wrong. Also, there were criticisms the Mikkelsons were not really investigating and getting to the 'true' bottom of various issues. I can personally vouch for that complaint." My question: Is this fact? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.63.170 (talk) 01:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place to soap-box. David and Barbara have never hidden the fact that they run the site themselves; if you pay extra-close attention, you'd note that they sign the bottom of the articles they write and that only one of two names are ever present. They are as prone to having biases and making mistakes as anyone else, but personally I think they do a better job investigating things than 90% of news services. Matt Deres (talk) 01:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I mean, duh. Internet sites are run by people. The Mikkelsons both sign all of their pages quite explicitly and explain exactly where they are getting their information from. They make their reasoning transparent. Still disagree with it? Feel free! It's just another site on the internet. It happens to be a pretty good one. Don't believe everything you read—but places that make their reasoning and sources transparent allow you, the reader, to verify it for yourself. Your friend doesn't seem to have done that—alluding vaguely to things he/she knows that you don't, and that you should trust him/her on—so if it were up to me, I'd trust the Mikkelsons. The people asking the questions about the site have as much as a selfish motivation as anyone else. Just demand they make their logic and information transparent and straightforward, and the truth will come out. The Mikkelsons do this—which is one of the reasons their site is considered so authoritative. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 04:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

See here and here for the Mikkelsons' warnings against relying on the authority of Snopes. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh snap. Plasticup ^T/C 16:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

One thing Snopes does that some may take issue with is that they often conclude some Internet rumor is false simply because they can't find any evidence that it's true. This is poor logic. However, I see what they're trying to do. If someone who hates somebody else makes up an unverifiable rumor about them, like that Dick Cheney likes to torture babies for fun, it's unreasonable to believe such an extraordinary claim without extraordinary proof. However, their shorthand statement that the rumor is false seems likely to upset those who would prefer a more formal application of logic. I would like to see them add a category of "unreasonable to believe such an extraordinary claim without extraordinary proof" and change many of their "false" results to that. "False" should only be used when proof can be found that the rumor is, indeed, false. StuRat (talk) 16:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

They also qualify rumors as "undetermined" or if it's particularly complicated or sticky, it can be called "multiple, see details below". - Mgm|^(talk) 19:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• And like the others said: They are human and people can make mistakes. They were transparent about their sources so anyone can check their information. I've also seen them update entries with new information if they found out they were incomplete or wrong. - Mgm|^(talk) 20:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The nice thing about Snopes is that, unlike the authors of internet rumors, they cite their sources. Users should double-check the sources they provide to verify that they do prove or disprove any given story. Most of what they do doesn't require the skills of a professional researcher; any well-trained high school student can use reliable sources to verify whether or not Barack Obama took his oath of office on a Koran, or whether any cases of kidney theft have been verified by medical officials or law enforcement. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

From our experience here on the WP:RD, it's clear that a very small number of people with a very VERY large Internet behind them can do an amazing amount of research in a short time. People ask the most difficult questions and between the dozen or so "regulars" here - we find the answer most of the time. So two full-timers who have become particularly expert at doing this could easily cover the handful of new items that pop up on Snopes each week - especially with the help of tens of thousands of readers who - I'm sure - send them a lot of leads. As for labelling something as "false" because there is no evidence - that's a little 'iffy' - but since it's almost impossible to prove a negative, it would be almost impossible to label anything as definitely false. In the case of urban legends, if you can't find a source after a long and diligent search - the odds are very high indeed that it's bogus. SteveBaker (talk) 20:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The laws of irony are strictly enforced when you choose this of all places to ask such a question! --Sean/76.182.94.172 (talk) 00:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Snopes grades rumors or urban legends on a 5 point scale:"True, false, multiple truth values, undetermined, and unclassifiable veracity." If it is simply a case of "no sources found to prove or disprove" the could use "undetermined." Wikipedia should evaluate a source such as Snopes on the basis of whether other sources judged reliable in turn give Snopes credit as a reliable source, or if they judge Snopes to be partisan or careless. In fact, Snopes gets very high marks for accuracy, per a Google News Archive search:[2]. "The Internet's Snopes.com site is indispensable to those questioning the veracity of information. It isn't perfect, but it works very hard at verifying or debunking urban legends, misinformation, and separating the true from the false. When it is unable to do so, it says so. It also cites its sources and explains its reasoning." per Times & Transcript . It is "The invaluable myth debunking website" per The American Spectator . Sites of unknown reliability, which like to believe unfounded swiftboating of Obama, do not like Snopes [3]. Another site [4] notes that Barbara Mikelson is Canadian and not a Democrat at all, that Snopes did confirm that an exhausted Obama once claimed to have visited 57 states, and that Snopes debunked a hoax quote from Palin about God creating dinosaurs so when they became petroleum we would have vehicle fuel. The Modesto Bee recommends Snopes to check out the truth of political smears which arrive in your email inbox, along with www.factcheck.org , www.opensecrets.org , www.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker , and www.PolitiFact.com . To this list I would add Wikipedia, particularly the talk pages for the relevant article. Edison (talk) 01:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

And I'll just point out... nobody's perfect. The WashPost fact checker had a major error after the VP debate (see this blog post) which they silently removed after it became clear that it was simply factually wrong. Snopes, unlike the Post, at least has the gallantry to make its updates and corrections known. Never trust a site that claims it is always correct—trust those that give you transparency of sources, reasoning, and corrections. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me give an example of where Snopes concluded a rumor was false because they couldn't find proof that it was true:

Claim: Illinois senator Barack Obama is a "radical Muslim" who "will not recite the Pledge of Allegiance."

Status: False. [5]

Reason given: "...no evidence supports a claim that Obama is currently, or ever has been, a Muslim (radical or otherwise)."

This is one of those cases which should have a status of multiple or undetermined, but they stated that the entire claim was false. I fully understand, again, that they mean that no reasonable person would believe such an extraordinary claim without any proof, but that's not what they said, they just outright said it was entirely false. StuRat (talk) 05:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

old glass factory sites on pacific coast of california and old dump sites

Where can I find references or maps or addresses of old glass factory sites alone the coast of california, I am also looking for old dump sites along the california coast. time frame 1900-1975 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.145.172 (talk) 02:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Check sources in Long Beach, California and vicinity, such as current local manufacturers or reference staff in the public library there. A Web search brings up info like "Long Beach Glass Company, Long Beach, CA (1920-1933)" so you can continue along those lines. -- Deborahjay (talk) 20:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

What makes a work a "mood piece"?

In art, what qualities make a work a "mood piece"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.49.9.57 (talk) 03:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In visual art I suppose it's to do with evoking feeling through techniques that can range from effects of mystery and softness or depth that makes a work subtle, slowly entered, moving. Mood also comes from chiaroscuro or high contrast (see Caravaggio the painter) where the artist initiated using light and dark for dramatic effect. Chiaroscuro can be found in two and three-dimensional works including photography, cinematography (film noir eg), sculpture. You could say a wall of remembrance using curved surfaces and dark granite is a mood piece – like the ethereal looking Vietnam Wall. In music there's Albinoni's Adagio where adagio means a piece is meant to be played slowly, evoking deeper feelings. Jeff Buckley's treatment of the song Hallelujah is maybe, a mood piece. There are many other, different examples. Just my pov, Julia Rossi (talk) 10:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to be confused with a work performed by cattle,which is of course a "mooed piece" Lemon martini (talk) 13:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Song title

What is the song that starts playing at 2:20 in this video? Thanks. Nadando (talk) 05:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know but would like to get the name of the music in the beginning of the video.Lova Falk (talk) 15:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have an iPhone, you can use Shazam to identify it. Wonder if there is a similar Windows app? --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 16:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It's the Prelude in E minor, Op. 28, No. 4, by Frédéric Chopin. It was one of the pieces played at his funeral. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Driving as mandatory for a job offer

Looking for jobs, and a lot of them say that I need a driving license, which I don't have. Obviously, these are not driving jobs, like freight or anything, but jobs in which I might be required to drive.

After getting a bit frustrated at the amount of jobs where this was mandatory on the person specification, I was wondering why this isn't classed as discrimination of some sort? Maybe I'm not allowed to drive because of epilepsy or some other medical condition.

Moreover, in modern times where driving is becoming more of a choice than a necessity ^{(original research?)}, what with carbon footprints, the environment, war on oil, etc, then will this practice be allowed to continue?

Thanks a lot. Fenton Bailey (talk) 10:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It is obviously going to depend upon the laws in the country you are in. However many jobs require staff to be able to visit a customer, perhaps carrying tools or equipment and arrive within a short period of time. This means that public transport isn't viable. Should the company hire a chauffeur? I work in the UK and recently visited a customer in Germany with a large box of equipment - I flew to Germany and hired a car to drive the 2 hours to the customer. How else could this be done in a timely fashion? -- SGBailey (talk) 10:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm in the UK, and the jobs I was looking at were not service jobs like plumbing or delivery, they were office jobs that perhaps needed the employee to drive to see clients, etc. Driving was not the point of the role is my point. 90% of my time would be in the office, so can they demand that I need to be able to drive? Fenton Bailey (talk) 11:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If you need to be able to reach clients then you need to be able to reach clients, it doesn't matter how often it comes up. I don't know of any laws against requiring certain qualifications for a job that only rarely uses them (unless, possibly, that requirement indirected discriminated against a protected group - say, it was a qualification that ethnic minorities are unlikely to have for some reason). --Tango (talk) 12:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

(i'm not a lawyer etc.) The guidelines for companies to follow is something like 'employer fails to make reasonable adjustments'. It could potentially be argued that this portion of the role could be taken-up by a more suitably able colleague which is considered a resasonable adjustment. Similarly it could be argued that the role of driving to see clients is vital and so it would be unreasonable to not be able to to drive to clients (regardless of % of working week spent doing that task). The difficult part is...what is a 'reasonable' adjustment? 194.221.133.226 (talk) 12:54, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

We could take this to a ridiculous extreme by saying that a certain job would require the employee to eat a handful of peanuts on a fortnightly basis. Most people would have no problem with that, but the remaining few people who had a nut allergy would take umbrage for sure. It’s not that they don’t want to eat peanuts; it’s that they actually can’t. So by the employer saying that it is a requirement of the job, they are discriminating against people with nut allergies. It’s not that they don’t want to drive; it’s that they actually can’t. So by the employer saying that it is a requirement of the job, they are discriminating against people who can’t drive. That’s how I’m seeing this situation anyway. Obviously I’m not comparing a big sign saying “No Blacks” on the application form to saying you need to be able to drive, but there must be some similar elements?Fenton Bailey (talk) 13:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The difference is that there almost certainly isn't actually a need for the employee to eat peanuts, there is a need for the employee to drive. If you lost both your hands in a car accident, you're not going to be able to get a job as a surgeon, it is discrimination, but it isn't unfair discrimination. The same applies even for explicitly protected characteristics - a women's refuge looking for a counsellor is perfectly within their rights to discriminate against male applicants since there is a legitimate reason for preferring a female counsellor. --Tango (talk) 14:09, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I see your point. Good talk. Fenton Bailey (talk) 14:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If it was vital to my business that one of my employees eat a pile of peanuts every two weeks, I think it'd be pretty unreasonable to expect me to hire someone allergic to peanuts. APL (talk) 16:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you have simply not yet learned to drive (ie. you are not barred from driving through either a medical condition or by a legal ban), why not apply for the jobs and explain at the interview that you intend to learn to drive within the first few months of your employment. Astronaut (talk) 17:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a difference between "can drive" and "actually does drive". Sure, you may decide not to actually drive because of global warming, etc - but that doesn't really prevent you from learning. The amount of fuel you use while learning is pretty tiny and it's a useful skill from an employer's perspective. As for discrimination - your employer is allowed to pick employees on the basis of their skills - even if he does not require to you to actually use them. If he demands that you be able to speak Japanese - then that's OK - even if (as it happens) you are never called upon to use that skill. So it's certainly not illegal to require that you are able to drive. However, he's only allowed to discriminate against disabilities when the disabled person cannot perform the task required. So if you were unable to drive (eg because you have periodic epilepsy) - he cannot discriminate on the grounds of epilepsy - but if the job actually requires driving skills, he can. SteveBaker (talk) 20:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In business we call these "bona fide job requirements". Useight (talk) 22:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Suck it, Brittanica!: Bona fide occupational qualifications. --76.182.94.172 (talk) 00:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Should an employer be able to make it mandatory for the prospective employee to consume alcohol, pork and beef, neglecting those whose religious requirements would be violated, and thereby excluding the observant of those denominations?? If it wre a restaurant he could call it "menu familiarization." Edison (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If the consumption of those foods was an essential part of their job (a Maître d' or Chef), then yes. If they're just washing the dishes, then no. FiggyBee (talk) 02:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

There's some dubious comments here. Disability laws (at least in the uk) are set so that it is about whether or not accomodating the limitations of a disabled candidate is reasonable. The fact that a job 'requires' X doesn't make exclusion of disabled people unable to perform X legally acceptable. If reasonable adjustments could be made to the role that would allow a disabled candidate to be able to perform their duties they must be considered on an equal standing with those who wouldn't require the adjustments. I'll try dig out the relevant information/links to post. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Here in Canada there have certainly been court cases about whether something was a bona fide job requirement. I remember one where people wanting to work for a major railway were required to be able to lift and carry a certain weight unassisted -- I think it was 80 pounds (35 kg) -- on the grounds that they might be asked to move a coupler. It was argued that carrying a coupler around by hand was a task that hardly ever came up, and if it did, the employee could find someone else to help; and that what this was really about was the railway trying not to hire women. The court agreed. There have also been similar cases involving firefighting, where the arguments are less clear-cut but the courts have also sided with the women trying to be hired. Of course, I am not saying that any of this is relevant to the original poster's question, and this is certainly not legal advice. --Anonymous, 20:12 UTC, November 11, 2008.

million/crore value

how many crore is a million?.amillion has how many digits(eg 1000000) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.95.124.242 (talk) 12:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

How about you check out crore and million and tell us? Nil Einne (talk) 13:09, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Old Full Bottle

I have a bottle of Old Forester that was my fathers and I know it is 30 years old or more and has never been opened. Is it worth anything ? Thank you for your time.Brungard (talk) 13:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Whisk(e)y, unlike wine, does not age after it's been bottled. An unopened 30-year-old bottle of whiskey is not going to taste much different from one that was bottled yesterday, and nor is it going to be worth much more, unless there's something particularly collectable about it. FiggyBee (talk) 14:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Assuming it was kept in reasonable conditions - no direct sunlight, no massive temperature changes. Bad conditions could well cause the whisky to deteriorate over 30 years. --Tango (talk) 14:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

unanswered question

Where are all the blue foods? There are foods the color of all the primary colors...except blue.Where are the blue foods? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coquett20 (talk • contribs) 15:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I would advise looking over the article Blue and also Blueberry. Whilst blueberries aren't blue in the children's view of primary colours sense, they seem to get called indigo which is considered blue. Interesting Blue and green in language is worth a look (if i've got the title of that article correct). It is interesting how there are lots and lots of red and green fruits but less 'blue'. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 15:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

See Fruit Roll-Ups, Skittles, Curaçao liqueur, and Brilliant Blue FCF. 'tis the bounty of the artificial world! Plasticup ^T/C 16:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Random related thought: In Australia there are birds called Satin Bowerbirds that build fairly elaborate mating displays (see example) out of blue objects. It must have been very hard once upon a time to find blue shells, flowers, feathers, etc., but now they build these bowers largely out of blue plastic trash. It's quite amusing. Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:17, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Blueberries just look purple to me! I knew they were called blueberries for a reason but I just wonder why there are so many fruits the other colors and blueberries are the only ones thats blue! Where are all the blue foods? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coquett20 (talk • contribs) 16:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

IFAIK, there are no naturally occurring blue foods (I couldn't call blueberries, "blue"). Some foods, like those mentioned above (plus blue Smarties) have been coloured by the addition of a blue food colouring. Astronaut (talk) 17:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The OP knows that, the question was "why?". --Tango (talk) 17:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This guy may have the answer, and he published the results of his study. Here is a transcript of the lecture he gave on the matter. I hope that clears things up... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

"Purpleberry" doesn't have the right feel for a fruit, or for anything really. Has anyone mentioned blue cheese? (OK, I have now). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but are you all nuts? OF COURSE blueberries are blue! They come in different hues, but does this look frickin' purple?! No, it's BLUE! Belisarius (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 06:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC).

Come get your blue food here!

Other ideas: Bilberry, Lactarius indigo (edible blue mushroom), blue potatoes (and Terra Chips), and blue corn. No idea why blue foods are less common. Pure speculation: maybe making blue pigments is energetically costly compared to other pigments. Or maybe it's an accident of evolution - other colors were popular pigments first, then animals' sensory systems evolved to be attracted to those colors because they indicated good sources of food, and then blue fruits/berries/etc. were bad evolutionary strategies because animals weren't predisposed to eat them. Calliopejen1 (talk) 21:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, blue flowers are uncommon because bees don't like them. I couldn't tell you why, though. Steewi (talk) 23:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

My own personal theory: all the prehistoric blue foods got depressed and lost the will to live. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Loads of blue flowers here[6] to cheer up the blue foods. :) Julia Rossi (talk) 07:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Schott's Miscellany claimed some parrot-flesh was blue. Yum! jnestorius^(talk) 23:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Borage has very blue and edible tasty flowers. When I grew it I would also eat the leaves in a salad. -84user (talk) 11:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suspect that the reason for a lack of blue foods is that for most people blue food is the same as spoilt food. Take a slice of bread and put it in a plastic bag for a few days past it's best by date. It will eventually turn blue with mold, Penicillium chrysogenum. While that particular mold has quite the taste, it is harmless to eat, as are the molds used in blue cheese. Other molds are not and most are seen as indications that the food has gone off. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Van Buren accent

Did Van Buren speak with a dutch accent? In my head he does, but I guess it's quite likely he spoke English just like any other New Yorker... TastyCakes (talk) 18:57, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably not, given the fact that his family had been in North America for generations... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm not sure if that convinces me, keeping in mind the Quebecois ;). Was Kinderhook a Dutch enclave at all, or was his Dutch speaking family an anomaly? Incidentally, do the Amish speak English with an accent? TastyCakes (talk) 20:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic enclaves sometimes retain their languages. Not ethat our article on Martin Van Buren says in the lead: "he is also the only president not to have spoken English as a first language, having grown up speaking Dutch". Rmhermen (talk) 20:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If one goes back 50 or 100 years to old phonograph recordings of average Americans, the acents are distinctively different from what is common today (and not just because of the limited fidelity of the recordings. Speech of people in Van Buren's era doubtless would sound strangely accented today. If the folks of Kinderhook still spoke Dutch at home during Van Buren's childhood, there would likely have been traces of it in the English spoken in the town, even though Van Buren's ancestor of the same last name had immigrated 151 years before the birth of the future president. Edison (talk) 20:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is a book that says(p214) Van Buren spoke with a slight Dutch accent.This book [http://books.google.com/books?id=fywlrT6VI3oC&pg=PA623&dq=accent+%22kinderhook+new+york%22+date:1730-2008&lr=&as_brr=0 says his wife "never lost her Dutch accent." OK(Old Kinderhook)? Edison (talk) 20:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense. One could have gotten around New York on Dutch in 1800 at least as well as in Spanish today, maybe better. - Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Many of the Amish still speak German, specifically Pennsylvania German or Alemannic German. Their accent in English is considered distinctive - see their potrayal in films like Witness (1985 film). But note that such portrayals are often exagerated (like the accent in the movie Fargo). Rmhermen (talk) 20:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Or like the accent of a politician from Alaska? You betcha! Edison (talk) 00:55, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Neat, thanks guys TastyCakes (talk) 20:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Self cleaning ovens

I did not get a manual for the GE kitchen stove when we bought the house. Can anyone tell me how to clean the oven using the self-cleaning feature? There is a lock lever above the door and a "Clean" setting on the control panel, but how long should I run it? Do I need to do any prep work to the oven? RTRtqueen (talk) 20:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

My GE self-cleaning oven has a timer and a thermostat that prevents the oven from being opened during the cleaning cycle. Basically, once the oven reaches the cleaning temperature, the lock remains "locked" until the cycle has completed and the temperature has cooled off. You could always call GE or look on their website at http://www.ge.com for information on requesting a new manual. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:02, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

See http://www.geappliances.com/service_and_support/ . The first link is titled "Use and Care manuals". I would bet you could find what you are looking for there. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

You don't need to do prep work but if you have standing puddles of grease or anything like that it's a good idea to clean them up (or else they'll catch fire—which isn't a huge problem but it can make smoke and stink). Don't use chemical cleaners for this, just wipe up anything liquid or easy. Usually you run it for like 4 hours or something like that—it takes a long time to really clean it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 22:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If you keep a thermometer in your oven, be sure to remove it before cleaning. (BT,DT.) -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

November 11

Body language

Does anyone know any possible interpretations of the body language here? [7] Thanks for info.--AlexSuricata (talk) 01:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

In the cited image, Bush looks perhaps a bit more open and Obama a bit more tense, But check out Image number 5: Is there some Michelle show through? This portends a great 8 years. Edison (talk) 02:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks like two men pretending to have a frank and relaxed conversation while reporters swarm behind them and the whole world watches. Plasticup ^T/C 03:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course Obama looks more tense - which one has to clean up the godawful mess created by the other? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Trying to keep away from political fights, am I the only one who, till the end of that sentence, thought Clarityfriend was going to say "puppy"? :-) Hopefully, he'll be potty trained in a couple months, though. :-)Somebody or his brother (talk) 14:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If he hasn't been potty trained in eight years he won't be in the next couple of months. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

lol, good one!Somebody or his brother (talk) 13:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Renegade, Renaissance, Radiance, and Rosebud

What good is it for the US Secret Service to give code names to the president and his family if those code names are released to the public? For those readers who left their scorecards at home, Renegade, Renaissance, Radiance, and Rosebud are respectively Barack, Michelle, Malia, and Sasha Obama's Secret Service code names. Also, wouldn't it be better to have shorter words? Renaissance is three syllables, of which the third is rather long. And finally, does anyone happen to know why they are all 'R' words? Dismas|^(talk) 04:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

So why bother with "code names" if you tell everyone what the codes are on practically the first day you plan to use them?! (I'm guessing that they want names that are distinctive over a noisy radio connection - I agree that they don't really sound much different from each other - but they don't sound much like other words that might be said over the radio in an emergency.) SteveBaker (talk) 04:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Exactly; they're telephony codes, designed to enhance communication rather than obfuscate it. We have an article on Secret Service codenames for what it's worth. FiggyBee (talk) 04:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

(Oh - of course there's an article about it! How silly of me!) So...it looks like using the same initial letter for all of the first-family members is a standard choice - but there doesn't seem to be any particular method to choosing a first letter to go with...they aren't picking consecutive letters of the alphabet or anything. SteveBaker (talk) 04:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I really should have looked for the article first. And the reasoning behind them being public is kind of confusing. One of the sources for the code name article says: "These days, though, the code names have little to do with actual safety; instead they play a more ceremonial and logistical role, letting agents bark easily understood directions into their sleeves as a protectee is moving from location to location." And it goes on to say: "Anymore, though? It's really just for convenience -- and tradition". Well, maybe not 'confusing' really but it seems it's 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Dismas|^(talk) 04:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Or, to look at it another way; the Secret Service has to refer to the people they protect somehow. Titles or real names can be a mouthful or ambiguous (there may be two "President"s in the building, or multiple people with the same name - it's not unusual in America, after all, for a child to have the same name as their parent). Since the codenames are in constant day-to-day use, secrecy is pretty pointless. When the guy who just escorted the President to the helicopter announces "Bigears has boarded Marine One", it's not too hard to work out who "Bigears" is.

As for the initial letter, I expect they select an apt name for the principal protectee, and then the relatives get names beginning with the same letter. FiggyBee (talk) 06:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Which causes me to ask, Renegade? What were they thinking[8]? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you're using a definition which is too strict. I know what the wiktionary page says and I'm assuming that any other dictionary would say something similar but I generally don't hear 'renegade' used in such a negative way. Dismas|^(talk) 09:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Most people would see "renegade" as a synonym for "maverick", so highly appropriate. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

And why is 'Rosebud' the only recycled name? Richard Avery (talk) 08:04, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

@Dismas, I take your point yet looking over the names, many are or could be seen as disrespectful if not politically incorrect, even satirical and the choices hint at some kind of closet humor at the WHCA. Contextualising the code name with Obama hints further at some scepticism within. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

@ Richard Avery, someone might have been keen on Citizen Kane? Julia Rossi (talk) 09:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I agree with you that many of them sound like someone at WHCA is having some fun, e.g. Sawhorse for Al Gore who is so... stoic. There were a couple others that were rather interesting as well. On a side note, I wonder why only one of Dubya's daughters was listed. Maybe we couldn't get a source for the other daughter. Dismas|^(talk) 09:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I missed that one – that is funny. I wonder that anyone hasn't objected yet. ("Hey! Waddaya mean, calling me tumbler?!") How do security people keep a straight face? <hand shooting over head> Julia Rossi (talk) 10:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The codenames are probably used so often that the security people stop associating them with the original meaning, so keeping a straight face wouldn't be a problem. --Tango (talk) 13:42, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I would have voted for "Potus," (President of the United States, a cable code of long standing, back to at least F.D. Roosevelt), "MsPotus," "Big girl Potus" and "Little girl Potus." Edison (talk) 06:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it not possible that there is a element of politeness? It could be seen as disrespectful to refer to the president by their first name and you can't call the entire family by the last name. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

How much music is there?

Does anyone have a clue how I could get some sort of estimate for the number of music CD's have been produced? I don't mean the actual number of plastic disks - I'm wondering about the number of unique music albums. I presume there are more than enough to require an entire human lifetime to listen to them all - but I wonder by how much.

SteveBaker (talk) 04:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If you haven't found this page, it's an incomplete answer, but the Library of Congress claims to have over 3 Million recordings. But it's not clear to me what percentage of those are spoken word. Recorded Sound Reference Center Hope this helps. APL (talk) 05:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

For reference, 60 minutes per hour times 24 hours in a day times 365 days in a year times 75 years gives 39,420,000 minutes. At 70 minutes per CD, that means 563,143 CDs could be listened to disregarding time for sleep and other luxuries.--droptone (talk) 11:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

There are 311 thousand torrents on what.cd; it is amazing that someone has the availability of listening to so much in a lifetime. Mac Davis (talk)

Hey, did you try checking Amazon? If you search Amazon's "Music" category for "Audio CD" it returns 1,686,010 items. (Only a small percentage of them are in stock.) If accurate, that, at least, could provide a lower bound for the number of published CD albums. APL (talk) 14:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Picking up on Droptone's helpful maths calculation - he is basing his reckoning on listening to one piece of music at a time with BOTH ears. Why not train the brain to listen to TWO pieces of music simultaneously - one in each ear? I feel sure the brain would fight back at first but would eventually "learn" how to do it. I can listen to my wife, her mother, our 3 daughters, and our 5 grand-children all at the same time without any difficulty - all while watching a football match. 92.23.190.27 (talk) 19:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

You mean you can ignore your wife, her mother, your children, etc... while watching your football match, don't you? I know I pretend to listen, but that's quite different from actually caring... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I must be slow or something but I've been listening to Mozart's stuff for decades and I'm still not done. Saintrain (talk) 19:36, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I would have thought that Amazon might also include books on CD, possibly increasing the number by a large extent. But that being said, allmusic.com has a similar count: 1,544,354 albums. zafiroblue05 | Talk 07:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Amazon seems to classify audiobooks under "books" and not under "music". APL (talk) 14:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

However, Amazon often has different editions of a given album, sometimes five to ten . You must also discard "best of"s, compilations and single releases. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 13:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Official Obama title?

Radio shows I've been listening to have been flipping back and forth between "Senator Obama" and "President Elect Obama". Is it really the case that either title is OK? I'd have thought that "President Elect" would be the correct form of address - on the grounds that given a choice of title, one should pick the more senior position. SteveBaker (talk) 04:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

While I would tend to agree with you that "President Elect" should be preferred, I don't feel it's a more senior position since a P-E doesn't really have any power to do anything except name people to a team or cabinet that also doesn't have any real power... yet. Dismas|^(talk) 04:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, while the term obviously is commonly used, he's not technically the president-elect until the electoral college actually votes. I don't know if anyone's usage is being influenced by that. 05:15 UTC, November 11, 2008.

And even after he's formally elected, he still remains a senator until he resigns from the Senate (unless he's already done so by then). He might be President elect Senator Obama for a period. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:01, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

"President elect" is not really a title; it's a description. Obama has appeared in some photos with a placard that says "Office of the President Elect" but there's actually no such "office"; it seems to be mostly a PR thing. --Trovatore (talk) 15:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Um, if the president-elect sets up an office for himself, that is the office of the president-elect. What else? --Anon, 20:15 UTC, November 11, 2008.

I take it you're punning here. Sure, if he sets up an office, in the sense of a room where you go in and shut the door and work or have work-related meetings, then that's the office of the president-elect. It's not an office in the sense of an office of state. --Trovatore (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm not punning. I'm saying that just because you saw a placard with that phrase in it, that doesn't mean he's claiming it is "an office of state" as you put it. And therefore it's not appropriate to respond that "there's no such thing". Sometimes an office is just an office. --Anon, 06:35 UTC, November 12, 2008.

Ah, you didn't see the picture, then. Google it; you'll see what I mean. --Trovatore (talk) 09:15, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I did eventually. My comment stands. --Anon, 05:22 UTC, November 16, 2008.

Well, you're just wrong, then. --Trovatore (talk) 23:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Tipper Gore, teasing her husband, once said that he was so dull, the Secret Service code name for him was "Al Gore." --- OtherDave (talk) 16:12, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The truly picky want to call him the "presumptive president-elect" until the [[Electoral College votes and the votes are officially counted, but so far Wikipedia is following the usage of the news media, who since at least the 1840's have used the term "president-elect" as soon as a winner emerges in November. Edison (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

A 24-hour news radio station in Toronto today, in referring to the meeting between Bush and Obama, called them "the Presidents Bush and Obama". This is not an RS for anything, but it was interesting to note. ៛ Bielle (talk) 05:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

NYPD Crack

In the late '80s, early '90s, there was a NYPD officer who began smoking crack. He ended up smoking on-duty. At one point, he sold his city gun and badge ... I remember seeing it the story on shows like 20/20 and Dateline NBC.

Does anyone know this guys name and is there a Wiki page on it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JelloTube (talk • contribs) 05:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

See this special report in The New York Times. Louis Waweru  Talk  05:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Soccer World Cup Qualifying

In the World Cup,the host nation automatically qualifies for the finals-but what happens if they have to switch the host country due to some natural disaster or violence(like the Chile tidal wave of 1960 or the Mexico quake of 1985).Does the new host country automatically qualify too or do they still have to battle through the rest of the qualifying stages? And does the old host country still entitled to its automatic qualification even though it's no longer the host? Lemon martini (talk) 13:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't think there has been an actual instance of this happening, but as you say it could. If two nations are sharing the world cup, they'd both get to qualify - so I don't see how this situation would be treated differently. FIFA World Cup qualification might help you more. -- WORMMЯOW  08:45, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Currently there is a two year qualifing period. So, I would have thought that if the disaster was to happen now then there would be time for either South Africa to recover or to change the host nation and go ahead with a different set of qualifing. However, if the disaster was to happen in early 2010 then it would be hard to run a set of qualifing matches for South Africa, ignore the fact that for the first time ever they are playing qualifing matches, sort of. Also you would need to go with a country that has already qualified to keep the correct numbers of teams. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The 1986 World Cup was originally scheduled to be hosted by Colombia. Around 1982, it became clear that the armed conflict in the country made it unsuitable as a host, and FIFA designated a new host in 1983 (Mexico, winning out over bids from the USA and Canada). Colombia did not participate in the 1986 World Cup: Mexico occupied the host nation slot, and Colombia failed to qualify on its own. If the decision to switch venues had been taken later (i.e. after the qualifying rounds were well under way), FIFA could take one of two decisions: either allow both host countries, or only one; it is also possible that the last-minute host would be a large football nation and thus already qualified, making the decision easier. There is no strict ruel that only one spot os for the host: in 2002, for example, the two co-host nations (Japan and South Korea) got spots as host countries. In other tournaments (the 1992 European Cup, e.g.), a participant was replaced at the last minute, so a number of options are available to deal with the situation if it ever were to occur. --207.236.147.118 (talk) 17:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Dearth of Information

I've read in Wikipedia, as well as other anime blogs and websites, that a second season of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya was announced, but none of the places actually have any information about them. I live in Kolkata, which means I've to download my anime episodes to watch them and I don't know whether the Season 2 has started airing yet. Does someone have any information about this?? Thanks in advance. 117.194.230.224 (talk) 16:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The infobox on our The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya (anime) article suggests there's currently only one season. However, the "New season" section of that same article seems less clearcut - though it sounds like an elaborate joke to me. Astronaut (talk) 18:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Meaning of black flag in USA

Today as I walked past US embassy I noticed a black flag flown next to their national flag. I assumed it is sign of mourning since it is anniversary of the end of WWI, but as far as I know it is usualy marked by lowering flag not by flying a black flag. Can someone explain what that flag means ? 78.84.222.177 (talk) 21:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Was it possibly the POW/MIA flag which is mostly black? Rmhermen (talk) 21:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The third item on List of black flags says: "Black flags are often associated with funerals in the West, particularly state funerals and public mourning." --Tango (talk) 21:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the anarchists have taken over. Edison (talk) 22:15, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Well if they have there are easier places to start. 86.4.187.55 (talk) 22:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I knew about POW/MIA flag before, but I'm quite sure it was plain black (I looked carefully, acctualy for a moment I hoped to see a skull on it XD). As I said it is more common to lower the national flag in case of mourning and there is no public mournig in USA as far as I know. I noted they had Veterans Day, but that article dosen't say anything about black flags, nor does Flag of United States and related articles (November 11 apparently isn't day of mourning judging from what that article says about display at half staff) and black flag also dosen't say anything relevant. I think it was flown as sign of mourning, because of the end of WWI/Veterans day, but why in this manner ? Do they have some sort of tradition in USA ? 78.84.222.177 (talk) 11:21, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Part of the function of US Embassies is to educate people about the USA, its culture, and traditions, so you could always go in and ask. Depending on how many security guards they have out the front, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maltelauridsbrigge (talk • contribs) 12:52, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

lol, I saw one guard, but... usualy when I happen to pass by I'm on the other side of the street once I walked on their side - it looks very intimidating (barred windows high fence and thiny sidewalk with concrete blocks along the edge) I'd rather avoid even walking there ever again. I looked in their homepage - it dosen't say anything about this78.84.222.177 (talk) 14:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

pas@usembassy.lv and/or http://riga.usembassy.gov/contact-us.html would probably be a safer option than storming the front gate. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:35, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks, I don't want to e-mail them, I guess it most likely had something to do with Veterans Day, I think, if there was something more to it, someone here would have known 78.84.222.177 (talk) 18:14, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

No idea if this helps: Latvia celebrated Lāčplēsis War Heroes Memorial Day on November 11. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

No it dosen't, if it had someting to do with Latvia, I think I would know given that I am Latvian. Lāčplēsis day is something alike victory day and happens to be just a week before our independence day - whole Riga is decorated with Latvian flags, that's why I payed attention to flags of emabassies in first place. Only US embassy had a black flag 78.84.222.177 (talk) 09:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Maybe they were trying to get rid of ants and roaches, and didn't understand the explanation well enough :-). --Trovatore (talk) 09:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Racist / Gang graffiti on bus?

Resolved

On the back of the bus seat in front of me someone had graffited a star of david with a number "6" in three of the points and what looked like two forks coming out of the star with tines outward. There were some other details I have forgotten. I am going to report the vandalism later, but is it some sort of gang or racial supremecist group symbol? 152.16.15.23 (talk) 23:24, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

We're talking North Carolina? --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Specifically Durham, NC. 152.16.15.23 (talk) 23:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

A guess is a gang associated with (or wannabe associated with) the Folk Nation who seem to have a thing for hexagrams & pitchforks. Hexagram itself is worth a read, for the number of groups that have adopted it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:33, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

There was a prety close match in the link to the gang symbols on the bottom of the Folk Nation. I forgot to mention above that it had a G in the center, which matches up with that gang's symbology/graffitology. I guess I am glad it wasn't some skinhead thing, not that "generic" gangs are any better. You're fast on the response Tagishsimon, nice refdesking! 152.16.15.23 (talk) 23:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

And nice verbing, Friend 152. "Refdesk (v.)" should appear in OED any day now.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 08:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What are the largest projects on wikipedia?

Is there like a list or something of the largest projects on Wikipedia? If so, where could I find it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.108.230.99 (talk) 23:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

How do you define "largest"? Numbers of participants? Work done? Articles within the scope of? Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography, at a little under 600k articles, is a large one which springs to mind. I suspect Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting has also touched very many thousands of articles, and would be amongst those with the largest numbers of members. I'm not aware of any studies done; Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory is a useful link for those who are unaware of the number of wikiprojects in existence --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:48, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I am interested primarliy in number of articles within the scope, but I would be interested in other factors like rate of growth, size of participating body, ability of the project to affect other projects (like if project A adopts x, project B decides to adopt x as well on the assumption that if it worked for Project A it will work for Project B), and so forth. It seems wierd that for all the internal statistics on things like Featured Articles and number of hits a page gets in a day there are apparently no such statistics on the various projects on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.108.230.99 (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It looks like more than the genesis of the stats you're after has been done. I point you to Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index. As far as I can see, this is the hub of a bot which produces tables of article quality by wikiproject, such as Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/.NET articles by quality statistics. If you poke around at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment or Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide you might find some more work or someone interested. Given that the stats are available in a regular form from Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index you might find someone at Wikipedia:Bot requests who would fancy building a table or two for you from the raw data. With enough cycles, you could generate the history for the last 2.5 years or so. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index/Comparison - comparison by FA, unassessed & total article count to June 08. --Tagishsimon (talk) 00:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

November 12

What is the subconscious of the subconscious?

We all know that we have a subconscious. It's been a psychological staple since Freud discovered it. It was there all along leaving clues. Even in those days people knew that, at times, they did things impulsively, they dreamed, and they knew logically that every action wasn't preplanned. And now we're aware of it. We simply gave it a name. And once you're aware of something it can no longer completely control you. The jig is up, subconscious.

I had a guy tell me once that he literally asked his subconscious for a sign when he wanted to make a tough decision. It sounded a little crazy, until I realized that we dream and have bursts of inspiration all the time. The strange thing is, sometimes a solution will appear in a dream. My point here is twofold. 1. Since we've become aware of our subconscious, we can somewhat manipulate it, and not just let it roam around free, creating unconscious havoc 24/7. 2. Something is driving that. The subconscious "runs" on something. And once we figure out what it is we will have total control!....I think. I have a sneaking hunch that that something is being run by something as well. But, I'm getting a little ahead here. One step at a time. The thing is- something is running our minds. Nobody can pre plan every moment of thier life. Because there are outside forces and variables, some say. Then, please explain how a even a person in isolation can't predict the exact thoughts he'll be thinking in exactly 3 days, 1 hour and 14 seconds from now. And even if he's a smart ass and says I'll think the word "cat" at that exact time, he is now only focused on that time! There's the 3 days plus where his mind is more or less on automatic pilot and thinks what it wants (with some conscious(?) interruption, of course.) As I said earlier, we're aware of our subconscious and can now (somewhat) manipulate it. So now that people like me are aware of this force that runs the subconscious, it seems to have gone into hiding. It seems to be some sort of inifinite regress. We discover what that is, and then we try to discover what it is that runs that, and the next thing you know, you have wet finger touching a livewire hair.

With all the cutting edge brain studies out there there must a word for it, or a "concept", if you will. But maybe there isnt. However,- I feel that eventually, with your help, we can discover what "it" is. And I figure since Wikipedia is constructed with some of the most brilliant minds on Earth (educators, scientists, etc.) we may be able to discover it by the time this thread is archived. And if you're not from Earth, that's okay, you don't have to tell me that (dont wanna make trouble for anyone, Zoltar16-~***). Just let us in on what's really going on. It would be worth your while, because here we have something called a Nobel Prize, and it pays big bucks so you can enjoy the many comforts here. And if The Big Secret happens to be a mind machine planted in a crater on Mars, so be it. We can handle the truth.

So,-who will step forward and help me solve the greatest neurological mystery of all time? Dr. Carefree (talk) 01:58, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

While imaginative, your proposition is a bit far fetched, in my opinion. It automatically assumes that something drives the subconscious, while it's possible that it's autonomous. Has it been demonstrated definitively that something lies beneath the surface of the subconscious?CalamusFortis 02:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Sadly - the available science points in 180 degrees the opposite direction. From all we know and can measure and observe - it appears that everything we do and say is ENTIRELY driven by our subconscious and there is simply no such thing as 'free will'. Our conscious minds are merely observers of the results who justify the things that have already happened. There are some very elegant experiments that we will often take action several seconds before we consciously "decide" to do so - and our subconscious mind is 'editing' reality and skewing our conscious impression of time passing in order to 'cover up' these peculiarities. SteveBaker (talk) 05:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

There are examples extrapolated from "subconscious", two are Collective unconscious and Superconscious which redirects to the same article, though I had the impression it was a step beyond it yet again. Filters upon filters it seems. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

A wonderful read is Blink (book) by Malcolm Gladwell. In particular there is a section about a card-game experiment. The game is such that it becomes apparant to most people after about 50 hands that choosing one of the suit-colours is more likely to result in a 'win' than the other. What is interesting is that after a much smaller number of hands people's betting pattern has changed. That is to say that people have changed their behaviour to result in more wins but they are not 'consciously' aware of the change in tactic. The book is all about how decisions made in the 'blink' of an eye are sometimes better, and how to harness when that kind of 'thinking' works and also how it has limitations. Very interesting stuff. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 11:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't heard that one...I'll go and grab a copy of the book. Do you have details about the rules of this card game? SteveBaker (talk) 15:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

http://www.gladwell.com/blink/blink_excerpt1.html is the best I can find without buying the book/lending it from the library. I would highly recommend any of Malcolm Gladwell's work he's a very enjoyable read and his TedTalks are great - the one about ragu sauce is wonderful. ny156uk (talk) 23:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Wow! That's a cool link - thanks. SteveBaker (talk) 03:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

How much music can fit on a CD-R?

How much music is it possible to fit on a standard CD-R? That article says "The 120 mm disc has a storage capacity of 74 minutes of audio or 650 MiB of data. CD-R/RWs are also available with capacities of 79 minutes, 59 seconds and 74 frames (marketed as 80 minutes) / 736,966,656 bytes (702 MiB), which they achieve by molding the disc at the tightest allowable tolerances specified in the Orange Book CD-R/CD-RW standards." There is also this FAQ. Now, the CD-Rs that I normally buy have got "80 mins" written on them, and sure enough, when I try and burn some music to one using iTunes, I can't get more than 80 mins on it, regardless of the file format the songs are in. But, someone just gave me a CD-R with 80 songs on it and over 10 hours of playing time, although the total data is only about 600MB. (The file format is MP4, if that makes any difference.) It looks just like a standard CD-R to me. How has he done this? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Your friend has written the CD as an MP3 CD and you as an Audio CD. In iTunes you get to specify which way you want to burn CDs (preferences/options area). An audio-CD will work in 99.9% of CD players. An MP3-CD will only work in MP3-enabled CD players (more and more of them these days are mp3-cd enabled). The MP3-cd stores the files as MP3s (or preseves the format), the Audio-CD takes the MP3 format and when writing to disc writes it in a format that 99.9% of CD players can read (as in like normal CDs you'd buy in the shop). If he has found a way to burn 10hours of music onto an 80-minute CD that will work in 99.9% of players then he has developed/found a very very clever piece of kit. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

No, he's obviously made an MP3 CD like you say. Many thanks for that comprehensive response. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Scientist killed by ruling class

I remember vaguely a story about a scientist who claimed that the ground is round like a ball but the king at that time believed that the ground should be square covered by a hemisphere of the sky. As a result, the king killed the scientist. QUESTION: Is there any record of such incidence? Is so, please let me have some pointers to such story or related stories. I did a search with key words: scientist killed by king but nothing showed up. Thank you in advance. twma 11:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The sky would be in the shape of a cloister vault rather than a hemisphere if the earth is a square, maybe that's where the term the vault of the sky came from? Haven't heard of any such story. Dmcq (talk) 12:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Just a suggestion: perhaps you should try other words instead of "scientist." In a culture where the ruler believed in a square earth, "science" wouldn't be a widely used term. A mathematician, maybe? A philosopher? Possibly a heretic. --- OtherDave (talk) 13:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not aware of anyone dying over the cause of round versus flat earth - but plenty of scientists have died for their beliefs. Giordano Bruno for example - claimed that the sun was the center of the universe and that the universe is infinite...and as a result was burned at the stake (bizarrely - with his tongue "clamped" so he could neither recant nor make a final statement of his beliefs!). Yes - we've all heard the story of Galileo...he was relatively lucky! SteveBaker (talk) 15:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

He may not have been a scientist, but in a similar vein, how about Socrates? Mac Davis (talk) 22:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, a "flat earth" has never been the prevailing view amongst educated Europeans. The modern myth that "Columbus proved the earth is round!" is all Washington Irving's fault. A "square earth" covered by a domed sky sounds like it may be early Chinese astronomy. FiggyBee (talk) 03:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Don't know the reference but saw a comment that there were people who knew better, but it wasn't the official view. Similarly a vacuum was controversial (horror vacui) in those times[9]. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As shown by the heading, SHORT stories of scientists killed or suppressed by ruling classes are what I am interested to know. They do not have to be about astronomy or mathematics. Thanks for the names of Galileo Galilei and Giordano Bruno. twma 08:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

See Lysenkoism. The Soviet Union adopted a crackpot scientific idea as official dogma and scientists who disagreed were suppressed and sometimes executed. --Anonymous, 10:48 UTC, November 13, 2008.

Where to buy onycha

Where could i buy the onycha perfume? Not the essential oils? or the perfume with onycha ingridients or perfume from the onycha(and other) essential oil blending

Hi, I see this same question at yahoo answers and blurtit. Have you tried googling "Onycha perfume"? A lot comes up. It's confusing too, because some say it's the sstuff from the Onycha mollusc's operculum; others that it's labdanum and still others, that it's something to do with benzoin resin. Happy searching, Julia Rossi (talk) 10:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Missouri Election Results - again.

Taking on board earlier comments about the lateness of the result, I can't help noticing the gap between the 2 leading contenders is about 5000 votes or 3% of the lowest of them. Forgiving my ignorance about the eligibility of those (provisional) votes still being counted (I am in the UK where such issues don't arise IAIAA), isn't it about time this result was declared given the significant margin already counted? Or - could it be that the Returning Officer (UK expression) knows the result but doesn't like it and so doesn't want to publish it? Only asking. 92.21.183.83 (talk) 14:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

So long as their are votes being counted the elections officers cannot certify a final number of votes which is what their job requires them to report. "Declaring" the result is something that news agencies do based on their own formula and inclinations. And the whole 2000 election process showed some limits to that process. There are good reasons to expect that Obama may have won a large majority of these provisional votes due to the campaign's attracting occasional voters who may have more registration issues than regular voters and the Democratic Party's large voter registration efforts, some of which had issues (ACORN). (Also 5000 does not seem to be 3% of 1.4 million) Rmhermen (talk) 14:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

My apologies - you're quite right - it seems my third-world calculator's floating decimal floated too far to the Right - unlike John McCain's popular vote. Thanks for the answer though. But what exactly IS a provisional vote? In the UK you are either ON the Electoral Register before Election Day - or you're NOT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.183.83 (talk) 15:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Provisional vote, provisional voter, provisional voting - found it: Provisional ballot. Not that it is a great article. Basically provisional ballots are given to voters with issues like no matching name on the election roll, incorrect identification, etc. In my state, you have to swear an oath in front of the poll worker that you are who you claim to be and that you are registered in that precinct to get a provisional ballot. These then must be checked to ensure you weren't lying or voting multiple times, etc. Rmhermen (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Provisional ballots are a way to mitigate vote suppression efforts on election day, where one party has their people at the polling places to try and reduce the number of voters likely to favor the opposition by a variety of challenges. If someone does not cast a ballot on election day, there is not provision for their doing so later. This way the vote is cast, and the decision whether to include it in the total can be made later if it makes a difference in the outcome (as in Florida 2000). Evidence can be presented later to prove the person is entitled to vote, when someone challenges their right to vote. Edison (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

where one party has their people at the polling places to try and reduce the number of voters likely to favor the opposition by a variety of challenges. Sorry Edison, am I to understand from what you have written that party workers are allowed to stand at the polling stations and deter potential voters from doing so? Sounds like Zimbabwe to me. 92.21.183.83 (talk) 19:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Allowed? No -- though there's a natural limit to the law that can be exploited. If there's a 100-foot no-politicizing zone, for instance, you can set up camp 105 feet away and heckle. That's a natural consequence of the First Amendment. Does stuff happen? Sure it can, and no democracy is immune to such chicanery. — Lomn 19:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I just read the article suggested by Rmhermen - thanks. Clear as mud if you ask me. I am in the UK and I get a ticket from the Electoral Registration Office to PROVE I have a vote. Strange thing is - when I turn up at the polls without my voter's card, I still get to vote simply by saying who I am and where I live. Strange. 92.21.183.83 (talk) 19:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Vote suppression efforts may be done by official election judges or accredited poll watchers, who challenge the voter's right to vote. The grounds might be that their reported address has changed (but still in the voting district) or that they have the same name as a convicted felon who is in reality a different person. Or that their identification card has a different address or different spelling of the name ("Wurzelbacher" versus "Worzelbacher"). One party reportedly planned to challenge, at the polling place, the right to vote of those whose homes had been foreclosed [10]. The goal is to strike a balance between preventing stuffing the ballot box with votes from phony voters, versus preserving qualified citizens' right to vote. Edison (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

In the UK, either your name is on the list or it isn't. Taking the polling card you receive through the post (after sending back the electoral register registration form you receive through the post some time before) can speed things up, but it isn't required. Oddly, you don't generally need ID, although where I live the polling station only serves a very small area and the people running it know everyone anyway, so that may be why. --Tango (talk) 22:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

We also receive voter's registration cards - but it is mainly to tell us where are precinct votes at and which districts we are in. I have never needed it to vote - in my state I now need a photo ID (a driver's license or legal equivalent) but that is a recent development. Rmhermen (talk) 00:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of a provisional baptism whereby an adult gets baptised on the basis that he/she has not previously been baptised, but it is conditional to the extent that if he/she has, then this attempt is null and void. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Coins in toilet bowls

Does anyone know why in some homes in the UK (and possibly abroad) the dwellers drop a small coin (usually copper) into the toilet bowl and leave it there until it is eventually flushed away only to replace it with another? Is this perhaps serving the same function as throwing money into other water constructs and making a wish, some strange feng shui belief or someone just spending a penny? Nanonic (talk) 16:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm in the UK and have never heard of anyone doing that. It sounds like a strange superstition to me. --Tango (talk) 16:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Ditto - never come across it. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep - it's a new one to me too (and I'm also a Brit). Maybe someone in the household just as a problem with coins falling out of their pockets? Once one is in there, it might take a long time to flush away because the water can't easily get under it and it's pretty dense. Perhaps that gives the impression that the coin is continually replaced - when in fact it's just the same unflushable coin. The expression "to spend a penny" relates to the old coin operated public toilets that took a pre-decimalisation 'penny' - more recently, they went up to 10p. Hence the frequently found graffiti: "Here I sit, all broken hearted - I spent 10p and only fa..." ...OK, nevermind. SteveBaker (talk) 18:23, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Line two is "But that's not the worst of it/I thought it a fart, but instead I shit..." --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

10p? You visit cheap public conveniences - the toilets at London Waterloo station have been at least 20p for several years. --Tango (talk) 22:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

20p? It's a while since you've been. Network Rail charges 30p at Euston, Birmingham New St, and Manchester Piccadilly these days! -- Arwel Parry _(talk) 00:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

people in england charge you to go to the bathroom? weird —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.101.182.76 (talk) 02:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The charge is mostly to keep the homeless from inhabiting the toilets. 86.4.187.55 (talk) 18:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

A handful do, but it really isn't the norm. The only ones I've personally encountered are at Waterloo Station. 81.187.153.189 (talk) 08:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Here I thought I was a tyrant for putting a 10-cent charge on my bathrooms when playing Roller Coaster Tycoon. I didn't know there were actually public bathrooms that charge money! Is that just a UK thing, or do other countries do it too? Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 07:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Pay toilet. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 07:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I discovered one in Western Australia, there was an attendant and small towels available, so maybe it was towards costs of upkeep. It was a railway station public "restroom" by the way. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Many of the public toilets in India and Sri Lanka have attendants, who hand you a towel to wipe your hands, and then put their hand out for a tip, and scowl fiercely if you decline or if you want to but have no change, so they may as well be pay toilets. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Many toilets in Austrian cafés and restaurants have an old crone hanging around them to keep them clean, with a table by the door on which is placed a plate for tips. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

One of the malls in Yellowknife has free toilets but you need to get a key from one of the stores. The other has a pay toilet which was a quarter, profits go to a charity. The free ones at the Yellowknife Tim Hortons and the hospital don't have a changing table in the mens. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a gingerbread house Richardrj. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Would it surprise anyone that we have an article on the pay toilet? I'm old enough to remember these in the U.S., usually at bus stations. I also encountered these in Germany in the mid-1980s (usually with some little old lady mopping the floor in the background) as well as pay showers at campgrounds. I really am glad to see that Paris has stalls: the last time I was there, there must have not been any public toilets, given the number of guys peeing in the alleys. --—— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk - 11:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, no, it wouldn't surprise us, since jpgordon kindly provided it above. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Harrods was about £3 the last time I splashed out. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Only time I've ever seen 'em was in Bali. I found it really weird. Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 00:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Most Bus and Train stations have Pay Toilets in Serbia. These usually have an attendant (called "Baba sera" which translates to something like "granny shit" or "shitty granny"), you have to pay before entering the toilets and can take several sheets of toilet paper from the attendant if you need it. Also, in some places the toilets are often poorly maintained and dirty. And male toilets are almost always equipped only with urinals and squat toilets. — Shinhan < talk > 21:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Amelie's soundtrack

How difficult is it to learn how to play Amelie's soundtrack on the piano?--Mr.K. (talk) 18:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Someone I knew with nil piano experience learned to play the score from The Piano (film) to impress a boy. It took her three months. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That's awesome. I hope it went well and they're happily together. Romance isn't dead, it seems. Belisarius (talk) 17:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It was complicated, but you're right, heartfelt romance is not dead. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Main page featured articles

I asked this at Wikipedia talk:Featured articles, but I don't know how often that page is checked, which is why I'm posting this here as well. If you know of a better place where this can be posted, then please respond below.

The following question may seem rather trivial, but I wanted to inquire about it anyway. I'm wondering in what manner the intro of a main page featured article is constructed on the actual Wikipedia main page. I'm only asking because I noticed that the introductory content on the main page portion of a featured article doesn't always match the introductory content on the actual featured article itself. For example, in today's (November 12, 2008) main page featured article, Joe Sakic, the main Wikipedia page mentions that Sakic has Croatian origin; yet, in the actual article itself, there's no mention of it in the intro. Directly before the article was displayed on the main page (as in the day before the article got on the main page), there was no mention of his Croatian origin either. It may have been mentioned in the intro of the article a while back, which is why I'm wondering just how the introductory content on main page featured articles is constructed. From what point in the article's edit history is the introductory content taken? -- Luke4545 (talk) 21:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

It is based on some recent version the article's intro, but edited for length and main page style requirements. This is virtually always done by User:Raul654, so you might consider asking him. APL (talk) 22:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I actually found out about User:Raul654 shortly after I posted this, and he basically answered my question. Thanks anyway. -- Luke4545 (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The principal author of the article actually writes the first draft of it (at least, I did for my two FA's) - that's a part of the nomination procedure. But the final editing comes down to Raul. It's worth bearing in mind that the extra notoriety that a new FA gets shortly after passing the FA process - and again as it's about to appear on the front page - means that there is a flurry of last-minute editing that may well change the intro of the actual article between Raul snagging it and the page actually appearing on the front page. One of the ironies of the WP:FA process is that the most attention and improvement an article ever gets happens AFTER the FA process has already said what a great article it is! It would really be much more productive if people would look at the articles that aren't quite of FA quality yet - rather than focussing on articles that are pretty much perfect already. SteveBaker (talk) 23:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

November 13

Can you help me find the original projections of social networking sites such as Facebook and Myspace

--Bustenai (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)I am seeking the original projections of social networking sites - Facebook and Myspace are quintessential examples. The original business plans would show usage projections (how many eyeballs per month for the first year)and how they expected to monetize that audience. I am crafting my business plan for a unique site and need respectable numbers for the business community.Is is possible to locate the first or early businessplans of the companies mentioned or perhaps others? My one day owning my own island is in your hands.Bustenai (talk) 01:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In many cases, they didn't start out with the intent of being businesses. Facebook was originally a guy who wanted to organize his college year-book photos online - then the software was used by more colleges, high schools - and eventually, it got to be such a drain on his servers that he had to sell advertising to pay for it. THEN it was a business. This is not uncommon. I remember the first day the Google engine came online - there was ZERO advertising - it was a free service provided by people researching into search engines - only later did they "incidentally" decide to make money out of it. Ditto Craigslist...ditto loads of others. It's mostly geeks doing things for fun and for free that are slowly forced into becoming businesses. I doubt that any of those 'big name' services ever had a business plan until they were already making money. It's interesting to note that Wikipedia started the same way - but never did go the route of switching over to a business model. SteveBaker (talk) 14:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

And even if those sites did produce business plans, they're not going to make them publicly available. Such figures are invariably commercially sensitive. Also, you shouldn't be looking at those figures anyway. If you're serious about producing a robust business plan, you should be able to make your own projections without referring to any that have gone before. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 14:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The first such site up was CampusNetwork at Columbia College of Columbia University. Might check that article or contact the founders of the now-defunct social networking site. Edison (talk) 20:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Even if you could find such numbers, they may not be very useful. The reason such sites work is because they are somehow different from everything that has gone before. For your site to work, it also needs to be different, which means it may not be comparable to the existing sites. --Tango (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Chinese FDA

Is there a Chinese equivalent to the Food And Drugs Administration? Is there any Chinese group that performs a similar role? My focus is on the food aspect. 63.229.215.199 (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

They have a quality watchdog, if that helps. --Tagishsimon (talk) 02:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably the General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 05:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

And judging by the recent scandals, almost as effective as the FDA. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

But the consequences have been much more dire. [[11]] The administrator was executed last year. NByz (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

importing

This might seem like a dumb question, but why do we get products imported from China and other countries rather then manufacturing them in our own countries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vagamber (talk • contribs) 07:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

• Sometimes it's cheaper to import it than to make it here. After all, imported products need to be transported only once. If you made something yourself you probably need to important the stuff it's made off and then pay for all the man hours to get it produced. - 131.211.151.245 (talk) 07:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The biggest reason is the cost of labour. People in China generally have significantly lower wages than people in western Europe or the US. Think of it like this: say you want to make like, 50000 pencils. You could either pay a king's ransom to have it done where you live, or you can just hire a bunch of people in China, pay them a lot less, and ship them over really cheaply (the cost of transportation is much lower than the increase in cost to pay higher salaries). Belisarius (talk) 08:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Check out List of minimum wages by country - many factory workers are earning exactly that. It doesn't have a figure for China - but I found elsewhere that the average Chinese factory worker pulls in $2,520 per year. In the USA, the minimum you can pay anyone in the USA works out to $12,168 per year. So if the cost of shipping the product of one person's labor for a year is less than around $10,000 - it's cheaper to get the work done in China. [12] says that you can ship two 40' containers from China to the USA for $10,000.

So let's take a concrete example - the one everyone always talks about - sneakers. How many pairs of Nike's can you fit into two 40' shipping containers? A pair of shoes is maybe a 9" by 4" inches by 4" inches - and a 40' shipping container is 40'x8'x8' - so you can ship 2x40x8x8x12 = 62,000 pairs of shoes from China for $10,000 - the savings you make in wages from one worker over a year. The cost of shipping a pair of shoes from China to the USA is therefore around 16 cents...not really very much. I read some amazingly turgid papers on the net and the best I could estimate was that a typical US shoe worker turned out 107 shoes per hour in 1986. So around 50 pairs an hour. If they are working 1600 hours a year (I believe that's the average with sick days, vacations and holidays) - then each worker makes 80,000 pairs a year for $12,000 in the USA or $2,500 in China - that's 15 cents a pair in the US and 2.6 cents a pair in China. But the shoes cost 16 cents to ship - so it looks like you save 3.6 cents a shoe by doing the work in the USA. But that's not all - there are other factors at work here. Overseas, land is cheaper, taxes are lower, employer healthcare payments are not required, workers have to put in longer hours and the environmental laws are not so strict - overheads for managment, HR, etc are also lower. All of those factors shave more pennies off the cost of shoes.

This also assumes you could pursuade people to work in a shoe factory for minimum wage in the USA - I think that's a tough sell. www.payscale.com says that an average production line factory worker earns $15 per hour - which is 30 cents per pair of shoes - not 15 cents as a minimum wage worker would cost.

Some people will argue that people would "buy American" if shoes were (say) 50 cents or even a dollar more expensive than the Chinese-made version - but that's simply not the way people behave. They go to WalMart - which relentlessly pushes down on price - and doesn't show you anywhere in the shoe aisles where each shoe was manufactured. Hence, if there are two almost identical pairs of sneaker, people will go for the cheapest one - and WalMart won't waste shelf space stocking the "all American" one. So that's not going to work.

The solution for the US is to keep production in high-tech areas where labor costs are a tiny fraction of the cost of the product and the benefits of keeping the technology local outweigh the tiny price difference. But every high-tech product gradually gets understood well enough to be made overseas - so in order to maintain high wages, US workers have to push the technology envelope all the time. That means better education - more mid-life retraining - companies who spend BIG money in R&D. People should not expect to earn $15 per hour when their education is no better than someone in China who makes only $1 per hour. The US can't make money making shoes...or even computers or cars...the work needs to be in biotechnology, nanotechnology, advanced design services that the 2nd and 3rd world countries will pay money to use. Then, in 20 years - it'll have to be in orbital power stations or delivering helium from the moon - and in 20 years after that...I don't know - but it had better be something else because India will be able to do those things at a tenth the price the US can!

Sadly, the state of education here is utterly lamentable...and it's getting worse. Let's teach creationism instead of evolution...yeah - that's REALLY going to make a biotechnology industry that's a world-beater. Let's have all of the workers pray for god to make them a new bacterium that can convert grass into ethanol for us...that'll work.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

See especially comparative advantage. - Jmabel | Talk 17:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The cool thing about Comparative advantage, is that even if a country is absolutely more efficient at producing ALL goods, they still maximize their utility (fancy word for happiness or usefulness) by producing more of the item that they are relatively most efficient at producing and trading for the other(s).NByz (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The only quibble I have with Steve's wonderful explanation is that I think 9" x 4" x 4" is a better size for a shoe rather than a pair of shoes. I suppose it would also depend on whether the shoes are boxed overseas or shipped in bulk (I believe it's the latter). Matt Deres (talk) 21:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I have heard it said (although there is some debate about the truth of the statement) that the major sneaker companies ship left shoes and right shoes in separate containers so that organized crime cannot benefit by hijacking container trucks. That being the case - pairs of shoes can't be shipped in their boxes - so they must be being re-united and boxed somewhere more locally. But I'm not going to argue about the size of a pair of sneakers...the point remains that a $10,000 per year difference in worker salary (or more like $22,000 difference per average employee) pays for an awful lot of shipping. If you're a factory worker and the amount of 'stuff' you personally produce in a year would fit into four 40' shipping containers - then you'd better start worrying. Add in the other savings with overseas manufacturing and it's truly no contest. If Americans want to make their living making things like shoes - they need to get the minimum wage laws repealed and downsize their living standards accordingly - that's not going to happen - so plan on those businesses dying. SteveBaker (talk) 03:19, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Not all shoe manufacturing is in the country that can provide it cheapest/best value, there are some specialist shoe manufacturers in the US. Additionally moving your work 'off-shore' to the cheapest production countries is not without risk. Many companies that consider that risk too high (regardless of the cheaper labour costs, lower regulatory requirements). There are also infrastructure costs which can often put-off companies moving off-shore. Having a handful of custom-built mulit-million dollar machines in the US and trying sourcing/building replacements in another country requires a notable strategic input - in investing in off-shore they need to be confident that the medium-to-long term benefits of offshoring outweigh the short-term investment costs. Of course plenty of companies don't have this 'specialisation' issue and can simply contract-out there work, which makes moving work around much easier. In essence whilst the lure of lower production costs is a big one, there are also many reasons why companies retain production 'on-shore'. Without delving deeping into these moving manufacturing must consider: Strategic reduction in staff, Impact on PR in local (and potentially wider) community because of moving production, training of staff, stability of production/off-shore economy, financial implications of offshore (budget, auditing, reporting etc.), moving of control to less 'instantly' accessible area, quality of staff available, historic corporate philosophy, security of production/trade-secrets off-shore etc. etc. Often it will be worth it, but it isn't a case of just saying "It costs $1 per unit to make it in the US and 10 cents in China, move it" there's more to it. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Austrians and Marxists

Were the economists of the Austrian school really the first to critically engage significantly with Marxist economics? [no wiki articles needed, thx] the skomorokh 09:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you don't want Wikipedia articles,then I don't see how we can help you,unless you're expecting us to answer what sounds like a homework question for you,in which case we would all want a share of our grade.We can certainly point you in the direction of articles that will help you,but we don't do your homework for you. Also if you want to sign your name just type four tildes-these things ~ and it will do it for you. Lemon martini (talk) 11:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Lemon martini—Skomorokh is a serious user who has made a number of edits to Austrian school. And he signed his question. I think he's saying that he already knows what the Wikipedia articles in question say and is looking for some input from the desk. Darkspots (talk) 12:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep, Darkspots has it exactly right. The question refers to an unsourced claim in the article that sounds like it could be true but that I have been unable to verify myself. I should have made that clearer. Thank you both for your interest in helping. Regards, the skomorokh 17:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This won't be much help but: could be. As far as I know, earlier classical economists mostly didn't take Marx seriously enough to bother engaging. - Jmabel | Talk 17:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you read German I suggest this [13] reference, a treatise of Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk who was a major figure of the Vienna School. Chapter 4 would seem to be relevant. An English version is linked to at the bottom (1st of the external links) of the WP article on him. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:13, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Aye, I'm familiar with the piece, but I can't exactly cite a prominent first wave Austrian's engagement with Marxism as an RS for the claim that the Austrians were the first in the door. Thanks for the link, I appreciate it. the skomorokh 18:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That is of interest and lends credibility to the claim, thanks Joe. the skomorokh 18:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Belgium/paedophiles

Does Belgium actually have more child abuse/paedophiles than other European countries? If not, how did this myth develop? If it does, have there been any postulated explanations for it? It's a bit of a weird question, but thanks in advance for any answers. 86.7.238.145 (talk) 11:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

These kinds of question are tricky. If you find a statistic about the number of convicted Belgian paedophiles and it seems like a big number - that might be just that they are better at catching and prosecuting them than other comparable societies. If you find a statistic that says that more of these crimes are reported than elsewhere - then that may simply mean that Belgian society is uniquely open about that kind of thing with little of the shame that so often prevents the victims from coming forwards to report problems. Doubtless we could come up with some statistics - but in such a sensitive matter, I doubt we could infer much about actual abuse in Belgium as a result. However, that's not to say that we couldn't come up with some numbers for you - I'm sure someone here will be able to do that. SteveBaker (talk) 12:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, the stereotype is very recent, having it's roots in the Marc Dutroux case. During the trial, there was a conspiracy theory that suspects had been protected by a shadowy group of top government officials. A "paedocracy" if you will. I don't recall hearing anything about Belgians and paedophilia before that. Fribbler (talk) 12:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. Across any large group of people, there is likely to be the same percentage of people with any random trait, positive or negative, as there are in any other random group of people. As noted, there may be aspects of Belgian society that cause more pedophiles to get caught and prosecuted, but it doesn't mean that there are more in that society. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That's a dubious assumption. If we are to assume that (Belgian) society can be the reason for more people being caught/more reporting, what is to stop there being societies where X is more prevelent? Nature is impacted by 'nurture', and characterstics such as culture and society will impact the likelihood of X or Y occuring. I can't see why paedophillia would be exempt from cultural impacts (I'm not suggesting this is the case for Belgium). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 16:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In the original question, child abusers and paedophiles are mixed, but these categories are not synonymous. Not all child abusers are paedophiles, and not all paedophiles are child abusers. I would guess that just like Jayron32 said, that there is likely to be the same percentage of people who are paedophiles. However, the amount of people who abuse children is greatly different between societies, due to factors such as how well the society protects its children, what the society defines as "child abuse" etc. So it is not all impossible that there are certain factors in Belgian society that lead to an increase of sexual child abuse. Lova Falk (talk) 14:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. If peadophilia or child abuse are driven by cultural factors as well (I believe they are) then we shouldn't expect their likelihood to be the same in different cultures. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't a paedocracy be a country run by children? Sounds like a far more effective method of rule than a country run by paedophiles! --Tango (talk) 20:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Some people might say some countries are run by... *sigh*. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:19, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

girls

how can i get girls to undo their skool blouses so i can see there bras and boobs? wen i try it, they ether hit me or if theyre my frends just giggle and run off? i even tried doing it like truth or dare but they wouldnt do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.111.185.226 (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe our article on sexual harassment has a how-to section, but you might find the other info useful. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 12:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It can't be any worse than our uni anti-harassment video which was set in a cheesy 80s office and consisted mainly of some guy stuffing a shuttlecock down his pants.It was so bad it was laughable.Maybe having the faculty in hysterics and deciding the video was brilliant wasn't the message they wanted to convey... Lemon martini (talk) 12:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh egads!We really do need some sort of trapdoor on the way in here which removes the lesser species,but nevertheless...I'm assuming from your spelling abilities you're still at school.If you're really good friends with some of the girls,you may find if you sit down and talk to them when they're in a good mood,they may very well consider your request.When they are asking what you want for Christmas or birthday presents,you could drop some hints that a few undone buttons would be well appreciated.If all that fails,try becoming a naturist.You will find quite a few females who have no objections to you seeing their body unclothed.If you get arrested,Wikipedia will not post bail for you... Lemon martini (talk) 12:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This is evolution in action. Nature: red in tooth and claw. The terminally lame demand that girls undo their blouses. As a direct consequence they totally fail to 'get off' with them. Zero chance of sex ensures that their genes do not survive into the succeeding generation. Problem solved. Trust Darwin, he knew his stuff. SteveBaker (talk) 12:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that this sort of approach actually gets results some of the time when attempted by beautiful, charismatic guys—in no way disproving Darwin. The rest of us have to behave less like assholes if we want the chance to reproduce. Darkspots (talk) 12:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I've heard anecdotal evidence of the approach working via sympathy as well - remember, looking at a girl's breasts is very unlikely to impregnate her! --Tango (talk) 20:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I know its going to come as a shock to the OP, but girls are human beings too! They are complex and have desires and aspirations and life goals no less complex than guys. You could try establishing a real relationship with them! You know, like care about them in ways that don't involve sex right away! Well, plus there's the issue that breasts aren't "where its at" for the discerning connoisoir. Sure, they are wonderful accessories, but the real action happens elsewhere. But then, if you actually cared about the pleasure of your partner, you would learn how to please her. But then again, that would require you to get to know girls, and care about them in more ways than just as sexual objects. Which returns us to the original point. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

You're a real downer, you know :) You're right, but a real downer... Belisarius (talk) 17:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's try a more helpful response: Being interested in seeing what breasts look like is a natural part of puberty, however most of the girls you associate with will probably be rather shy about showing you them because it goes against cultural norms (there are cultures where nudity is perfectly normal, ours just isn't one of them). The easiest breasts for you to see would probably be those of glamour models, try buying a newspaper or magazine which includes glamour photographs (in the UK, The Sun's page 3 is a well known example and you could even claim you were buying for the articles!). If buying such material at your age is illegal where you live, then, of course, I do not recommend or condone violating the law. --Tango (talk) 20:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Of course, glamour mags may only be helpful if you enjoy ogling bags of salt water. FiggyBee (talk) 03:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Plenty of glamour mags are natural only, as is Page 3. --Tango (talk) 10:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I reccommend the badcop-goodcop routine: insult her, then complement her. Works every time*. Example - "That lipstick makes you look like you should wear a red nose and juggle for a living. But look on the bright side: your [boobies or other body part] make you look great, even though you look like you put a baby in a blender and wiped it on your lips." * = results may vary flaminglawyer^cneverforget 03:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Your post reads like something from Beavis and Butthead – highly unsuccessful girl-impressors. I guess you'll find a solution (in your library, books on drawing have naked models in them) or in your dreams, but most real girls have boundaries (no-go zones) as to the limits of socially acceptable behaviour. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Strip poker was popular when I was in school. As, at an earlier age, were lingerie catalogues. This video also contains useful information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Maltelauridsbrigge (talk • contribs) 12:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Tea Tree Oil

This question has been removed. Per the reference desk guidelines, the reference desk is not an appropriate place to request medical, legal or other professional advice, including any kind of medical diagnosis or prognosis, or treatment recommendations. For such advice, please see a qualified professional. --Darkspots (talk) 13:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Such as your pharmacist. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Casual Lofa

Does anyone know where i can find information on the Casual Lofa and other similar contraptions? It is famous as being previously the world's fastest sofa. Simply south (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

"World's fastest sofa"??? Like, in the couch races on the Bonneville wall-to-wall carpet flats?

(We used to have adult soap box derby races in Seattle, until they got stopped for insurance reasons. One person did put an entire couch on his racer). - Jmabel | Talk 18:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Google returned over 6000 results, that should be a good start. --LarryMac | Talk 18:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Google seemed to work for me. The sofa in question is pretty damn cool. ~ mazca ^t|c 18:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Found it was by Edd China and also found www.cummfybanana.com which unfortunately at the mo currently undergoing refurbishment. (Wow, bathtub and office). Thank you. Simply south (talk) 18:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This UK paper [14] has a lengthy article on the 220 HP Rover V8 mobile sofa. Googling is a bit tricky, as you get results on Amish handcrafted organic furniture. I suspect that these are not motorised but have 220 donkeys built into the upholstery :o) --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Are Assumptions important

i am really annoyed time and again to hear from my managers, please stop assuming as our work largely depends ont he customer behaviour, so i sincerely thing assumptions plays a major role and however, we cannot rule out the importance of assumption , can any one help me explain the importance of assumption to my managers.Vikram79 (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

In economics, assumptions are important to theories because they let you simplify the world. In this way, ideas formed with assumptions usually only reflect one aspect of the situation being studied. To get a full view, you'd need many theories with many assumptions.

For example: A good theory might be that output per worker is a function of worker effort. An assumption of this theory might be that customer behaviour is an independent variable. Using this theory to predict output might work really well.

Another theory is that output per worker is a function of the rate of growth of the industry (more demand = more output). An assumption here, is that worker effort is independent (they won't harder in the "good" or "bad" states of the world). This theory may predict output even better than the first one. Or it may not. Both are valid theories. NByz (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks NByz at leat i have some perspective to go ahead with Vikram79 (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What your managers may be trying to do is get you to question your assumptions. Are you assuming your customers are a certain kind of people? Maybe they are not. Are you assuming that sales will grow? Maybe they won't. Are you sure that the things you are assuming are correct? Can you show that they are? While some assumptions are usually necessary, it may be that you are assuming more than your managers want. Contrary to what some popular comics would have you believe, managers are often smart people. DJ Clayworth (talk) 21:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Christians think assumptions are VERY important - after all - we are told that Jesus Christ's mother Mary was assumed into heaven.92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

is OCD curable

I have friend who has serious obsessive cleanliness disorder, he even wash his hand if you give him a pen or shake hand with him. any ways i can help him rid this? or is this OCD at all.?Vikram79 (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The best we can do is refer you to obsessive compulsive disorder, however we cannot give medical advice here. If you are concerned for your friend, encourage him to see a physician who specializes in treating patients like him. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The easiest way to find a specialist would probably be to go and see his General Practitioner (or whatever the equivalent is where you live) and get referred. (At least, that's how you would do it in the UK.) --Tango (talk) 20:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Another issue would be: who is looking for a cure here? Does your friend suffer because of his compulsion? Does it keep him from doing things he would like to do? or Is it you who feels uncomfortable because he's not "normal", doesn't suit your standards? In the latter case I'd take a long hard look in the mirror asking what is so threatening or disturbing about s.o. who's different? Remember that humans would never have made it out of the cave were it not for the occasional odd one out. Who knows, in a huge epidemic your friend might just be the last one standing ;-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.97.245.5 (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC) oops76.97.245.5 (talk) (one day I'm going to kill this bot=:(

Who will fill vacated seats?

Who will fill Obama and Biden's vacated Senate seats? Bikingshaun (talk) 19:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The governors of their states will appoint replacements. The names have not yet been announced. Edison (talk) 20:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What if the sitting governor was not of the same political party? Is there a requirment to fill the position with someone of the same political affiliation? Bikingshaun (talk) 20:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it depends on the state, some have laws requiring the replacement to be from the same party. I think the others at least have conventions to do so. --Tango (talk) 20:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

There is no national rule to handle such a situation. This topic has been covered extensively in the archives over the past few weeks, but to summarize, each state is left to its own devises as to how it will fill the vacant seats. In some states, the governor appoints a replacement, in others they are elected by the state legislature, and in still others a by election is held. In states where the replacement is appointed, some require it to be from the same party, and some do not. In some cases, the sppointed replacement is only approved to serve until the next statewide election day, and in others they serve until the end of the prior senator's term. If you can come up with a scenario, there is likely a state that does that to replace its senators or representatives. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Just by the by, as it were, we don't have "by elections". We have "special elections". --Trovatore (talk) 22:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

To-may-toe, to-mah-toe/po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:04, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It just sounds really odd, when you're discussing an American election. Next you'll be telling me that, as you drove to the by-election, you stopped in at the petrol station, put air in your tyres, and re-read the campaign materials you were keeping in the boot. --Trovatore (talk) 06:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Special election. Click it. Really. Oh look, it redirects... Damn... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 13:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yep. And petrol redirects to gasoline. I really think "by-election" is unidiomatic in American English, unless discussing elections held abroad. --Trovatore (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is a discussion of the issue: [15]. In Illinois, the governor may appoint an interim replacement, but must also hold a by election within 180 days if there is not already a regularly schediled election within that time. The date of the election must be announced within 5 days of the vacancy occuring, which means that Governor Blagojevich must announce an election date to fill the position by January 25, 2009. In Delaware, the Governor is given complete control to appoint a full-time replacement, though its an uncertain situation since Delaware will swear in a new governor the same day that the U.S. swears in a new President and Vice President, it is uncertain how the replacement will be appointed. If Biden resigns before being sworn in (which he may do) then the responsibility will fall to the current governor. If Biden resigns the day he becomes Veep, then the responsibility will fall to the governor-elect... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 20:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If anybody watches DirecTV........

Could someone please explain the sudden change in the XM channel lineup? All of a sudden Ethel is now Alternative Nation, Lucy is Lithium, Hip-Hop nation replaces the City, Octane replaces Squizz, Chrome has been removed from the lineup among other channels being removed........Does that mean that the stations change content? And why did they remove some channels? --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 21:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

See Xm_sirius_merger. As of November 12, 2008 Sirius and XM radio stations merged content. The new stations you are seeing are the Sirius stations that fit the same genre. Bikingshaun (talk) 21:26, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

As was said, Sirius and XM merged their music channels. Here is XM's press release, and here is the new channel lineup.--Zerozal (talk) 14:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Hyla

When I visited the combined Fashion+Beauty & Health+Wellbeing fair at the Helsinki Fair Centre, after I had finished my main purpose for attending the whole fair in the first place, taking pictures of the models in the Finnish body painting championship at the Fashion+Beauty part, I wandered about the fair and found an interesting display at the Health+Wellbeing part. It was a new air filtering and room cleaning system called Hyla. The presenters offered me a home demonstration, so I signed up for one. The home demonstration was at my apartment this Tuesday, and I must say the salesperson won me over with her demonstration. But when she showed me the price, my feeling changed completely. I am very wary of paying over 1600 € for an air filtering and room cleaning system, no matter how brilliant it is. So I have to ask here, has anyone else had any experience with this Hyla system? Does it work as well as advertised? Is it worth paying so much for it? JIP | Talk 21:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I know nothing of Hyla, but I think you may have found yourself in kirbyland. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Hyla does not use vacuum bags, it uses water. The water binds the vacuumed dust more efficiently and avoids the system getting clogged up by dust, and in addition, helps to moisten the air, which is good for people with allergies. The salesperson demonstrated this very well, and she also (very cleverly, I think) had me fill up and empty the water myself instead of doing it herself. This makes me convinced this Hyla system actually works, but not convinced it works well enough to justify the price. It's all a very nice system that actually works, but is it really any better than a plain old vacuum cleaner? JIP | Talk 21:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I expect a HEPA vacuum cleaner is better than the Hyla system, and I'd be concerned about two things with the Hyla: 1) How fast does it dry out after use? Water + dirt + time = mildew. 2) How does it handle larger particles (food crumbs, dead ants, small toys)? --Carnildo (talk) 00:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Haven't tried one either. Sounds expensive. At that price I'd look into other options like a central vacuum system or a vacuum robot that empties itself. In both cases you would minimize your exposure to dust. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 01:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Water, eh? You may have found yourself in RainbowLand. That article is a stub, but from what I know, those are very expensive vacuums. I did notice that "rainbow vacuum scam" was a suggested search phrase when I started googling. Make of that what you will....--LarryMac | Talk 01:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's easy to get overwhelmed by an impressive demo. But ask yourself this: Before you ever heard of this system - were you in such a desperate state of dissatisfaction with your vacuum cleaner that you were looking to spend 1600 euro to fix the situation? I suspect not - I suspect you never really gave the problem a moment's thought. So why now? It doesn't matter whether it works or not - what matters is whether you NEED it. Yeah - so it humidifies the air...if your air is too dry - buy a $20 humidifier. If your air ISN'T too dry (and you didn't rush out and buy a humidifier - so I presume it wasn't) then something that FORCES you to pump humidity into the air whenever you clean the carpet is a terrible idea. Excess humidity promotes mold and dust-mites...the very things you'd hope your vacuum cleaner would help to eliminate. So no...I don't think you need it...if you have 1600 euro's to burn - find your biggest debt (car loan? house loan?) and pay it down. If you have no debts - the stock market is amazingly low now. Hint: "buy low...sell high". SteveBaker (talk) 02:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

These things are impressive, but as above, hardly necessary unless you're desperately trying to find new ways to empty your ever-filling pockets. Try the article luxury good, followed by Veblen good and commodity fetishism. Do these people live longer or spend faster with these goods? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Everybody has missed the most important part of this, "...taking pictures of the models in the Finnish body painting championship at the Fashion+Beauty part..." JIP, where are the pictures? CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I recall some years ago having a Kirby Cleaner demo in my home (I have just read the article link mentioned above). The salesman did ALL the tricks written therein but also, he asked if he could demonstrate his cleaner on one of the children's beds. He showed us the piles of "dead skin cells and hair" he extracted which we thought amazing (but we don't as a matter of course normally vacuum our beds - hmmm, maybe we should). I digress. We were still reluctant to spend such a vast sum on what is essentially a vacuum cleaner - SO - he pulled an A4 photograph out of his briefcase which depicted the most horrendous, monstrous, elephantine, multi-tusked creature, with horns and a scaly, slimy body armour, and announced that this was an enlargement of the microscopic bedbugs that we were forcing our children to sleep on and how could we possibly be so cruel etc., etc. Needless to say, we ejected him and his cleaner from the house but we could not, under any circumstances, stop our 7 year-old daughter from screaming when bedtime came. In the end, we had to buy a new mattress, but even that was a fraction of the price of the Kirby Cleaner. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I had that demo too. It worked on me, though. I used our Kirby to paint my fence and give my family massages, among other things. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

@CambridgeBayWeather, maybe we nicely side-stepped it because of the ins and outs of who owns copyright of the artwork, can they be reproduced blah blah etc etc... Still it's worth another question. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Does HR and BP drop while sleeping

For the average human, does the heart rate and blood pressure drop while one is asleep? Acceptable (talk) 23:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Heart rate drops[16] during sleep. Blood pressure falls on average 20%[17], though the first article says bp rises during REM sleep.--Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 13:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

That all depends on who what I'm dreaming about. :-) StuRat (talk) 04:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

November 14

Is it illegal for a minor to purchase alcohol?

Y'all know how it's illegal in Canada and USA to sell alcohol to minors 'ight? But is it illegal for a minor to purchase alcohol if someone accidentally sells it to him or her? If dem coppers find out, will they charge the minor or just the seller? Hustle (talk) 00:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

In the UK AFAIK, the law is constructed such that it is illegal to sell alcohol to a minor. The miner in the transaction has not of itself committed an illegal act. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's nearly impossible to say what the case is "in the US" because each state has its own laws regarding alchohol. But in most places I've lived, I am almost positive that selling to a minor is verboten. --LarryMac | Talk 01:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

In many U.S. states it is illegal to be a "minor in possession" of alcoholic bevs, exclusive of the crime of selling or otherwise providing alcohol to a minor. Here is a Washington state website: [18]. In some Christian churches minors get to drink a bit of alcohol as part of the Eucharist. Sometimes parents give minors alcohol with a meal, and I'm not sure how legal that is in various jurisdictions. This is a complex legal question and we cannot provide legal advice. Edison (talk) 01:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Huh? That's not a request for legal advice; it's a question of what the laws are. Quite different. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure? Signs at bars usually say it's illegal for a minor to attempt to buy alcohol, in my experience.AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:31, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed different from state to state. For example, in Delaware, where I went to college, it was illegal for a minor to enter a liquor store at all. I have several friends who were arrested and have a misdemeanor on their records for merely being inside a liquor store while under 21. In other states, there are vastly different laws. In some U.S. states, for example, all hard liquor (i.e. everything except wine and beer) is sold through state owned "ABC" stores; in other states hard liquor is regulated but sold through liscenced private stores, and in others you can buy hard liquor at the 7-11. Remember, everyone, the phrase "In the U.S." is pretty useless with regards to laws; most laws and regulations are managed on a state-by-state basis. It is a product of the federal nature of the U.S. See federalism. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Defining whether something is legal or illegal always requires giving legal advice. 'Law' is just the collection of norms, and needn't be codified by a legislative body. To determine if something is legal or illegal requires interpretation of statutory laws, recorded precedents and even, when no such things exist, the interpretation of "understood social norms." I don't mean to get technical about it, but I think people often forget about this sort of thinking. Lawyers have lots of work to do.NByz (talk) 03:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Under any understanding of the word "law" by any person who is NOT a lawyer, it means "written statutes as passed by the government". Any finer shades of meaning are generally taken to be obfuscations by lawyers, and not in the general idea of questions. When I ask "what is the law about" what I am asking is "What has the government written down in the books that say I can..." --Jayron32.talk.contribs 04:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I just meant that as a more general answer to the "Is x illegal or not?" questions that often come up 'round here. If someone asks if something is legal or not and someone else tells them that it's not statutorily illegal, but then some case law or regional precedent exists that allows someone (the "Crown" or Attorney General etc.) to press charges successfully, they'll be like "Hey! What gives chet?"

If some kid was buying or possessing tons of booze in my county, and the parents weren't doing anything about it and the source was somehow protected or unknown, I'd find some charge to lay... some way get it in front of a judge.NByz (talk) 07:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

More "minor in possession laws references in U.S. states: Minor in Possession , Colorado: [19] . Michigan: [20] , Massachusetts: [21] , California: [22] , Alabama: [23] , Oregon: [24] , Arkansas: [25]. For a general reference, see the blacklisted article at ezinearticles.com/?Minor-in-Possession-of-Alcohol-by-Consumption&id=1075300. Edison (talk) 06:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The impression I get from Liquor stores caught in underage-buying sting, Six Allston liquor stores busted in sting and Montgomery's Underage `Sting' Has Liquor Sellers Reeling is that it's up to the retailer to check and if they don't they will be charged. Strange though the underage sting seemed to get mor hits from Australia and New Zealand than anywhere else. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 13:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In Michigan, we had the situation we 19- and 20-year olds could go over to Canada to drink legally and come back home and be charged for MIP for having alcohol in their bloodstream. The court found that the statute's definition of "alcoholic liquor" included the words "which are fit for use for beverage purposes" and slightly alcoholic blood didn't fit that definition.[26] Rmhermen (talk) 14:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Archie Van Winkle

In your write-up of this MOH winner, you should include the fact that there is a monument to him in Juneau, AK —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhysphillips (talk • contribs) 03:54, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT. You have as much ability to add this information as anyone. You should also cite a source where this information can be found, to verify that it is true. But you are quite invited to fix it yourself. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The article on Archie Van Winkle already mentions the monument, and has done since the day it was created. FiggyBee (talk) 05:37, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The article says "A bullet shattered his arm and an enemy hand grenade exploded against his chest." I am calling B.S or a failure to understand the nature of hand grenades. Edison (talk) 06:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Call BS if you like, but that seems to be what the citation says... FiggyBee (talk) 08:24, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The citation [27] does read a bit different. ...he rushed through 40 yards of fierce enemy fire to reunite his troops despite an elbow wound which rendered 1 of his arms totally useless. Severely wounded a second time when a direct hit in the chest from a hostile handgrenade caused serious and painful wounds... A hit from a handgrenade = shrapnel from the grenade hit him. A grenade exploding against his chest = the grenade was next to his chest when it exploded. I suggest copying out the citation text. (I don't think they are copyrighted.)76.97.245.5 (talk) 12:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The full citation is already in the article. FiggyBee (talk) 13:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The Matrix and Religion

Is it true that there is a religion based on the movie The Matrix? 206.188.60.177 (talk) 06:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, according to the second paragraph of The Matrix (series)#Reputation and influence? Also check out the references in that article. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 06:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

(Every once in awhile someone comes on here and asks questions like this with the hope and intention of someone creating an article on the subject or legitimating their creation of an article on the subject. Such articles have been deleted many times, and the topic is at the moment ghettoized as a small section of the general Matrix series article. Just giving some backstory...) --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And it's usually someone from the 206.188.*.* range. [28] (Although, someone from 71.2??.*.* seems to ask from time to time, as well. [29]) APL (talk) 04:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Mission row extension

What does mission row extension mean?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.19.240.200 (talk) 08:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm out of my depth here, but no matter – there's Mission Row, a street in Kolkota/Calcutta, and Mission Row Extension information is found here[30]. According to the article, it is/was the centre of various motor vehicle industries: “The motor spare parts business began here in 1958-59. Ninety per cent dealers opened shop here,”... Julia Rossi (talk) 09:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Where? In California it might be short for an extension to a mission style row house or an extension to a row of mission style houses. If you ask for a definition it helps if you give us some context. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 10:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Spending on advertising

I've heard that the correlation between spending on advertising and sales is lead by sales (that is, that sales rise before advertising spending rises) but since all this economic turmoil I've noticed more adverts from businesses that usually advertise infrequently. Have companies for which advertising is a significant expenditure lowered costs (as would be expected from past behaviour due to decreased custom) while other companies have decided to undergo advertising campaigns? Is there an explanation for this? Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks 86.7.238.145 (talk) 12:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Advertising and sales go hand in hand rather i.e it is established as one important component of the pre production processes but though your statement contradicts it can hold true for little mushrooming companies which do not have much revinue to spend in advertising which is later leveraged from the sales and profits earned to advertise further hence their graphs of sales and advertising go parallel, which do not ideally happen for the large established companies as a little less or more spending woulfd not effect their existance. May hold otherwise for companies with large manufacturing units and product release to coincide with the global meltdown or recession like this time they have no choice but to still be hopeful to atleast be able to rech the masses to introduce a product.this happens when the forcasting machenism is not effective within the company.Vikram79 (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Part of the answer may be in who decides what a company does and how flexible the internal structure is. In good times, Marketing departments are not seen as a "cost" department, but rather as a "revenue" factor, because their task is to bring in sales. (Tech, R&D and After Sales Service on the other hand are always considered "cost".) So Marketing managers usually have a lot of power and influence in executive boards. When times get lean executive boards decide to cut costs and tend to do that in the departments they consider "cost". Marketing departments throw themselves into overdrive to show that they can do what they are said to do (i.e. increase sales). Nicely plotted graphs will convince the other board members to increase spending on advertising, to keep sales at least stable. If the economy picks up again (as it usually does) after a while Marketing will get all the credit for stable/ increased sales. In case the company cut vital positions in their "cost" departments and can not recover from that loss, no one will blame them for putting all their money in advertising (current Apple vs Vista ads non-withstanding).76.97.245.5 (talk) 10:34, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Who fixes foreign currency exchange rates - and how?

I bought some Euros a couple of weeks ago for a winter trip to Spain and I got 1.25 Euros to the British Pound. Last week the rate fell to about 1.19, and today it stands at 1.13 (all at tourist rates). So is someone trying to tell me that the British economy fell by about 10% in 2 weeks compared with the rest of Europe, when the Irish, Spanish, Greek, German and other Eurozone economies are in a mess? I find that such a collapse is so hard to believe so any enlightenment will be gratefully received. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 16:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Currency exchange rates are driven by what the market will bear. I personally don't buy into the notion that a market change has a one-to-one correspondence with a real world change (your 10% fall example), though opinions as to what the correspondence actually is vary wildly. — Lomn 16:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The quote "In the short term the markets are a voting machine, in the long term they are a weigh machine" comes to mind. You are assessing a current price that changes by the second against a measure that doesn't. If a listed company's share price increases 20% it doesn't mean its output has increaesed by 20%, it doesn't mean the company will make 20% more profit, it is an indication of growing confidence in that share. The buyers are factoring in vast amounts of information (or just following the herd/taking a punt). The same is true of currency markets. The change is not necessarily related to real-change in the currency (or stock) so much as pricing in of knowledge, assumptions, factors etc. ny156uk (talk) 17:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

A more direct answer is that the pound sterling used to be a favorite of investors because UK interest rates were higher than in the euro zone, United States, Japan or Switzerland. Investors could borrow a foreign currency at a low interest rate and invest in Sterling to earn a higher interest rate (plus a good chance of Sterling rising as others did the same). This is known as the carry trade. The Bank of England has signalled its intention to cut interest rates and recently did so dramatically. The Bank of England's base interest rate is no longer much higher than those of competing currencies. It is now slightly lower than the discount rate for the euro. As a result, carry trades that yielded a profit now generate losses. Furthermore, the Bank of England has signalled an intention to cut rates further. This has led investors to liquidate their Sterling investments, selling Sterling to repurchase the currency in which they borrowed money to repay loans in order to cut their losses. The further Sterling drops, the more investors are motivated to cut their losses. It is something of a vicious cycle, and it reveals little about the relative health of the British versus the euro-zone economies. Marco polo (talk) 04:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Selling strategy

I have recently been interviewed to take charge of the sales bit of a telecom firm as a manager though, to one far flung areas, as these areas are predominently occupied by business families or the farmers, which in percentile is 20-80 % approx. Are there any strategy to go about reachng the masses to have them buy this product? i do also have a hand in the marketing and sales department to work to the benefit of the project.any "out of the book" comment would be appreciated greatly.Vikram79 (talk) 17:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you are trying to sell phone services to (mostly) farmers, which means convincing them to switch from their old company. I would imagine farmers would need to communicate to suppliers and customers quite some distance away, so some plan without individual long distance charges for each of these calls might be in order, perhaps with a higher monthly charge instead. Farmers also tend to have a rather uneven income throughout the year, with most of it coming in at harvest time. Thus, a plan that only requires one yearly payment, after harvest time, might be a good selling point. Finally, if you could offer a free number where they can call in and punch in a code to get relevant current commodity prices (corn, wheat, etc.), that might be a nice gimmick, too.

For the business/family portion of the market, the first item (no long distance fees per call), would also be important, as they will likely also need to communicate with employers, stores, etc., at long distances, as well. One of your biggest challenges will be to convince the potential customers that they will get the same quick repairs as they currently do, with a new provider. For those in isolated communities, especially those which lack cell phone towers to provide a back-up, land lines are absolutely essential. Thus, when the lines go down those people are totally isolated until they are fixed. Another problem you are likely to encounter is that people in those communities will be very reluctant to change. You might want to offer free or very low cost service to, say, the local school or church, to help convince the residents that you offer a good service and are reliable and part of the community. StuRat (talk) 04:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There are two questions that might influence what strategies you can employ. Where are we talking. and What does the competition offer. If they offer free long distance with a higher monthly base rate, then you'd have to offer s.th. else to convince people to switch. Other factors like e.g. who owns the lines (cables) or how much would it cost to put in new satellite links and a local network also come into play. "telecom" is a broad description. It describes a company that sells Voip just like one that offers a whole range of products to compete with the likes of AT&T or Telefonica. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 11:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Free Spam

Is there a place where I can sign-up my e-mail address to receive bulk spam mail? Acceptable (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Try posting the email here for screen scrapers to see maybe? Also try clicking on banner ads and signing up for things like free credit checks or whatnot... You could always respond to some spam mail you get on another address with your spam one by sending a one word email or the like so they will know your address is active. Just be wary of malware. Try googling for mailing list signups and signing up to as many as you can find. This person tried to get as much spam as he could for an experiment—Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.16.15.23 (talk) 20:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If you respond to spam by telling them to stop sending it to you, that will assure the sender that the address they reached is a "live one" and they are likely to increase the amount of spam you receive and sell your name to other spammers. Edison (talk) 23:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There are strategies that will increase the amount of spam you'll get - and others have indicated some of them. But there isn't a single place to sign up to get the stuff. Companies that specialise in spam-elimination use honeypot accounts that they know will never receive any real mail to collect spam messages. SteveBaker (talk) 06:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

This discuss what letter of the alphabet to choose when trying to attract spam or perceived spam. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

'Shillong'

Hi all, is there a reason why Shillong is called the Rock Capital of India...Vikram79 (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This should help you out. Tomdobb (talk) 20:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Chickens and there eggs

what came first, the chicen or the egg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.111.45 (talk) 21:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The egg, by a very long time indeed. Dinosaurs had eggs. Algebraist 22:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

It's usually assumed that the question refers to chicken eggs, in which case the answer depends on your definitions. It probably doesn't surprise anyone that we have an article on subject: Chicken or the egg. --Tango (talk) 22:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

and the science prize goes to Algebraist here[31] though there are other views. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There are indeed several ways to constrain the question to make it hard to answer. If you change it to "Which came first: the chicken or the chicken-egg?" - then you can't answer it. But if you don't change the question - which only mentions an egg - without restrictions - then you have to say this:

• At some point in the past there were no chickens - they had not yet evolved.
• Sometime later there were chickens - which evolved from some other kind of bird (a "proto-chicken").
• We may safely assume that proto-chickens laid eggs.
• So when the first bird that had the appropriate genetic makeup to be called a "chicken" appeared, it hatched from an egg laid by a proto-chicken.
• However - since we're NOT modifying the question - then the very first creature that we'd formally define as "a chicken" definitely hatched from an egg. It wasn't a "chicken egg" because it was laid by a proto-chicken...but that's OK because the question does not mention that restriction.

So - the egg came first - no question. It's not difficult or ambiguous.

SteveBaker (talk) 06:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Where does the Easter Bunny come into the picture? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Party Bus

Okay, so a couple of my friends and I have decided that it would be awesome and very convenient (don't ask why) if we had some type of bus or large van. After searching around craigslist, we came across this. It looks pretty good, and we've also talked to the owner top establish it is in good running condition and that we're interested in buying it.

My question has two parts. The first is what would be the real value of said vehicle? I asked the owner how he came to his asking price of $1500, and he said he just estimated (it has approximately 150,000 miles on it). Bluebook doesn't have an entry for a vehicle like that to my knowledge after a quick search...so I'm asking you guys what you think it would be worth.

Secondly, we come to the actual purchase. I'M NOT ASKING FOR LEGAL ADVICE. All of my friends as well as myself are under 18, which presents a problem as far as I'm aware due to our age. As far as I know, none of us can legally purchase this vehicle because we're minors, so we are planning to get one of our parents to hold the title and do the signing, etc.. So I'm curious about possible solutions to the insurance problem. I think that Wisconsin requires some form of basic/minimal insurance by law, but I don't know. What possible solutions are there to this problem of insurance? We're all new to the real world so we are not very well versed with this, a good answer here may teach all of us a valuable life lesson and help secure our future ;-). But I wouldn't expect a premium to be too high on a bus like that, so let's pretend cost is not an issue. Thanks for the help and suggestions! --71.117.41.17 (talk) 22:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about valuing such a vehicle, much less about insurance costs where you are - but I do know that you are correct in describing yourselves as "not very well versed" when it comes to the subject of insurance versus vehicle value. You see, it has far less to do with the value of the vehicle concerned than the risk that YOU pose to other vehicles, property, and people. Where I live in the UK we see oodles of young drivers who have just passed their driving test (age 17 in the UK) who then go out and buy a "Banger" for a couple of hundred pounds sterling; they then do a home paint and chrome job on it for another couple of hundred pounds or so; and then they approach an insurance company who will only offer "Third-Party, Fire and Theft cover", which basically covers the other person's car but not yours regardless of who caused the accident. Of course, if the other person DID cause the accident you would have a claim on their insurance but your own car would be out of action or unrepaired until that claim was settled. And at 17 with no driving experience behind them, such minimal cover will cost well over £1000. Which goes towards explaining why about 10% of all British cars are on the roads without ANY insurance. 92.22.212.56 (talk) 23:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, at age 18 getting minimal insurance for my absolute turdmobile of a car would have cost me about £1050. At age 23 it's down to £280. Inexperienced drivers (and most distinctly inexperienced male drivers) cause a huge proportion of accidents and insurance companies reflect that. ~ mazca ^t|c 00:08, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Auto insurance comes in two major varieties: insurance against loss or damage to the vehicle, and insurance against other people suing you after an accident. You probably don't want to insure the bus against loss, but you'll want as much liability insurance as you can afford.

The traditional solution to the insurance problem is to add your bus to your parents' insurance, with you listed as a driver. The insurance bill will usually list how much of the bill is for which vehicle, so you pay your parents for the insurance on your vehicle, and then they pay the full bill to the insurance company. Since you're under 25, insurance isn't going to be cheap. --Carnildo (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest that you check into your states laws with respect to the class of drivers licence required for a multi-seat vehicle. You may be required to have some sort of taxi/chauffer licence. In Northern Canada I need a class 5 to drive a regular vehicle but a class 4 to drive a 15 seat school bus or a taxi and a class 2 to drive the 40 seat bus. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:49, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please verify the following info using a knowledgeable source before acting on it. As I suspected "location, location" makes all the difference. If I read this page correctly it's not the auto that gets insured in Wisconsin, but the driver [32]. If the auto is bought by one of your parents then you as a family member are covered under their liability insurance, your friends are covered if your parents permit them to use their vehicle. (For safety sake I would put a written permit with the insurance details in the glove compartment.) Premiums are based on how much of the bill for an injured party the insurance will pay in case you have an accident. (Not on the value of your vehicle.) In general your parents will have to pay for whatever portion of the bill the insurance doesn't cover. If they prove they can't because they are broke there's something called uninsured driver coverage. Ask s.o. how that works. As far as the bus is concerned: "...Collision premiums are based on the make and model year of your car. You should evaluate the current market value of your car and your ability to afford a similar car should it be destroyed before you purchase this coverage. You may not need this coverage if your car has decreased in value or if you can afford to replace it." Vehicle price: Wisconsin doesn't exactly have an arid climate, so rust is an issue. If non of your parents is auto savvy, get a workshop to have a look at the vehicle before you take it. (Either have the sellers cover the cost or split the bill.) The guys in the ad don't strike me as people who tended to such things as transmission fluid and filter changes. The fact that they didn't paint it (recently) is actually more reassuring than if they had, because you can see what would otherwise have been covered. [33] [34] These sites should give you some basis for negotiating a price. (Sounds a bit high by comparison. You'll have to decide how much value you place on the bus modifications.) Keep in mind that with a used car the purchase price is not the final price. You will have to budget repairs. The transmission may still be the first one, which means it may or may not have some miles of life left. It has reached an age where the way it has been treated can mean it has another 50,000 left or is way past due for rebuilding. Another things to keep an eye on with a van is your battery. Make sure the dealer checks the connecting points of the bus body and the frame. Since it doesn't sound like you want to start taking up van maintenance as your new hobbies, nor have a lot of buddies / parenting bodies that are car savvy, you'll have to get everything done by a workshop. That can get expensive in a hurry. On the other hand it doesn't sound as though you will have to rely on this vehicle as your only mmeans of transportation. So if you do encounter a repair bill that exceeds the purchase price you can just junk it. Couldn't find anything on fuel consumption for the base model. Good luck with your plans. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 14:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your excellent responses thus far. 76.97, the links you gave me were particularily useful in determining a ballpark price, thank you for that! And also thank you all for the responses to my insurance question. It appears I am indeed a true n00b when it comes to matters of insurance, but at least now I understand it better! --71.117.36.200 (talk) 15:23, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you need a special license to drive a bus? Louis Waweru  Talk  16:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

November 15

It's snow much harder to shovel

I find myself with a gravel driveway for the first time this winter, and don't quite know how to clear the snow off it. A snow blower would send gravel flying at high speeds, and shoveling seems likely to result in large quantities of gravel tossed on the lawn, as well. So, what do other people with gravel driveways do when it snows ? Don't worry, there's snow wrong answer. StuRat (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There's really nothing you can do, other than attempting to get as much off as possible with a shovel. Usually just driving over it enough will help by compacting it, and since it's gravel anyway, you won't have to worry too much about traction. This came up from a quick Google search. --69.146.230.243 (talk) 05:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Forget the snow blower for now. If the winter where you live is long then the best thing is to drive over it now until it gets packed down. It will then resemble and feel like a regular cement roadway. Then with the next snowfall you can use the snowblower. Of course you should have treated it like a runway and put down a binding agent combined with regular packing and watering during the summer month. This would then have allowed you to grade and use the snowblower during the winter. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Scatter Rock Salt over the drive, especially where the wheels will drive so as to create traction - and drive it into the snow - literally, by driving over it several times. And repeat the exercise until the snow stops falling. But scrape your shoes clean on a doormat, or better still, remove them, before trudging the salt through the house. 92.21.135.184 (talk) 13:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Except that Halite your car, the reinforced concrete in the garage and other steel don't mix too well. Plus there is a limited temperature range and it's not good for plants and lawns. Save your garden from salt damage seems to say that it works to -9C but I have seen other sites (commercial) that indicate it works to -30C. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 14:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the diff may be that dry salt only works to -9C, but, if you "get it started" by adding some water, it can work down to -30C. However, I don't want to destroy my lawn, car, and the concrete portion of my driveway, though, and salting the driveway seems to do just that, as you've noted. StuRat (talk) 15:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well Stu - it seems you're stuck between a Rock(salt) and a hard place, which might just mean you're going to have to park your car out on the street, which will probably be gritted and salted by your local Traffic dept., anyway. And as a regular "salter" for 30+ years living in the icy wastes of central Scotland, and given the quantities and relatively short periods of use, in my experience, I can only say that the resilience of my verdant lawn and the concrete base of my garage must be infinitely superior to yours. Only saying..............92.21.135.184 (talk) 16:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Watching porn before an exam

I have heard that having sex before an important game helps sportsmen perform better. Does watching porn before the day of a VERY important exam have a similar effect? Thanks. This is very important. 122.161.173.212 (talk) 09:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought that the axiom was the other way round? Anyway it appears that either way it makes no difference, Sex Before Sport?, Sex Before Competition, The myths of sex before sport and Sex before the big game?. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 09:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Aw what a bummer :-/ 122.161.173.212 (talk) 09:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Could be worse, you might think these are (work safe) porn links. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 10:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

They did this on braniac and found that that people (specifically men) perform better in sport after sex. This is because there will be more testosterone in the bloodstream and it will increase muscle protein synthesis. However, the effects of that would not been seen immediately, so it is probably more psychological than anything else, ie increased confidence. I would guess that watching p0rn before an exam would just distract you and make you less able to concentrate on the exam. SN0WKITT3N 12:38, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Agree with snow. i tried oncejust to realise what a bl;under it was as i could not switch my head off the"oh my god, harder" to the american civil warVikram79 (talk) 12:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There is recent research that suggests that market traders' success is correlated with their level of testosterone. How much you want to extrapolate from one study is another matter. Does sexual activity "use up" the hormone, or lead to more production, for example? I don't know. But you may wish to learn more here. BrainyBabe (talk) 12:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

One obvious flaw in the theory that sex before an exam will improve performance is that higher testosterone levels only help with activities where physical strength and aggressiveness are needed. Not only won't these attributes assist you on a test, they may make it difficult to sit still and concentrate (as in Vikram79's example). So, the only way sex before an exam could help your grade is if it's with the teacher/instructor/professor. StuRat (talk) 14:51, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If you were totally unprepared for the exam, the added testosterone could make it easier for you to scrunch your exam paper up into a ball, throw it and hit the examiner right between the eyes. Fribbler (talk) 14:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Forcasting

How far can we compare forcasting as an element of assuming in general or financial point of view? and if they are synonymous "to a certain extent" which is the element of which? any suggestions would be gladly ambraced..Vikram79 (talk) 12:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't follow your question. Do you mean weather forecasting, stock market forecasts or something else ? StuRat (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Names of parts of the body

List of human anatomical features doesn't answer this question. What is the name of the silver snake-like marking under the skin that represent sudden growth, e.g. during adolescence, or on pregant women's bellies? And does Wikipedia have a list of names for these odd parts of the body, like the philtrum or the hairline on the nape of the neck or all the individual toes or the frenulum under the tongue? Gather and label the obscurities, and bring order to the universe! BrainyBabe (talk) 12:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Stretch marks, or striae, aren't usually considered to be anatomical entities. They are a physical manifestation of rapid growth. Like wrinkles are signs of ageing. Fribbler (talk) 13:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

getting jobs when under 18 (really pissed off under 18 year old)

Im only after a part time job to make a bit of money, however i am finding it increasingly difficult. I am 17 and from the UK and had a job before (however it was working for the family business - i still got paid though!) and the only opportunities availible are all unpaid work experience placements (i've had plenty of those over the years!) and im not after that, what advice can you give me to be able to get a part time job (i constantly look everywhere & send CV's in and never get a reply)?, why is so hard in the UK to get one? i seriously gonna pretend to be 18 because it is getting annoying —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.2.92 (talk) 14:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm in the UK, and I worked at a McDonalds part time when I was 16-18. Pretty horrible job, but they have no problem employing 16-17 year olds and the hours are very flexible. I had friends that got jobs at supermarkets at the same age. Where have you been trying? ~ mazca ^t|c 15:55, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What skills/abilities do you have ? What sort of job would you like ?86.202.29.124 (talk) 15:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)DT

I agree with Mazca above. OK, we are having a recession and there may not be as much dosh being splashed around by the consumer public - but we are only 6 weeks away from Christmas when most of the supermarkets and fast food chains will be hiring younger and cheaper casual staff. What about working in a garden centre or behind the scenes in Argos. What about being an usher or cleaner in a multi-plex cinema. All those jobs in my area of the UK seem to be filled by people your age. Mind you, at my age, all the policemen and doctors seem to be your age too !!! 92.21.135.184 (talk) 16:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)