Talk:Fractal cosmology

I have created this page as a summary of the subject, to replace the re-direct to Infinite Hierarchal Nesting of Matter, which is only one of the many examples of what can be called Fractal Cosmology. Scale Relativity, for example, has an equal claim to be the right re-direct, in my opinion. Both are limited examples as there have been so many appearances of Fractals, and Fractal-like structures, which have appeared in the study of Cosmology. I intend to expand this entry, to include much more, especially summarizing what Baryshev and Teerikorpi have to say about the history of the subject.

Please do not attempt to merge this entry into the above referenced subjects, or their articles, as this would be horribly misleading. If the authors of one of the above articles want to add content here to more fully document their topic, that is all to the good. I'll get around to folding some of that in, once I complete the references, and such.

JonathanD (talk) 19:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello JonathanD,

I don't have time to contribute much, but I'd like to see this article not degenerate into the Survey of Random Crackpots that showed up on Infinite Hierarchical Nesting of Matter. Regarding the intro, there is no truth whatsoever to the idea that we "see fractals" at particle physics scales. AFAIK the only actual naturally "fractal" processes are those seen on chemical to landscape-y scales (snowflakes, broccoli, clouds etc.) and in some sense of large-scale structure (megaparsecs to gigaparsecs). Atomic, nuclear, and particle physics is emphatically not "fractal" in any way, nor are planets, galaxies, or galaxy clusters for which there is very particular scale-dependent physics. Even the "large scale structure" is not scale invariant---there are thought to have been scale-invariant primordial density fluctuations in the early Universe, but the large-scale structure formed after highly-scale-dependent processes (mostly acoustic waves in the pre-CMB cosmos) had left major imprints. Be careful when citing pre-WMAP (and especially pre-COBE) papers on cosmology, as this data flushed away a lot of 70s and 80s speculations. I haven't read Baryshev's book, I don't know how much of it has held up.

Good luck, Bm gub (talk) 20:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Bm gub ,

I want to be a good wathchdog, and to be somewhat inclusive of alternative views, as well. I think the entry on "Infinite Hierarchal..." included some useful information, but was largely unscientific, or perhaps was too opinionated about a Fringe or Alternative view. I'd like to be more even handed, but do the subject justice. As to the issue of ultra small fractals, there is some debate among theorists. In Causal dynamical triangulation theory, and Quantum Einstein gravity theory, the universe is 2-d at or below the Planck scale and evolves into 4-dimensional space-time at conventional scales. They suggest that "discrete time slices show fractal structure" of space, in their (Monte Carlo) simulations. This echoes some of what 't Hooft said in his landmark Holographic Universe paper (2-d at Planck scale), quite a number of years ago. But it's only more recently that theorists have taken the idea of the universe transiting through fractional dimensions (as an allowable physical result) seriously. Observable fractal processes in Particle Physics? Probably not.

All the best, JonathanD (talk) 21:35, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello to All,

I am pretty much done here, for now, except for fine adjustments, including adding more links, and so forth. The entry could be expanded, but I'm thinking to invite review, at this point, and submitting this piece for Good Article verification. If anyone knowledgeable cares to comment, please speak up about any details which might raise concern.

JonathanD (talk) 01:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Just a quick comment. I just wanted to express my pleasure at whoever wrote the introduction to this article. It is well written using minor literary devices to capture the infinite nature of fractals. Thanks. FluxFuser (talk) 02:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Multiple Issues

This article has multiple issues, and I have tagged it appropriately. If you feel you can address these issues, please edit the page to do so, or bring any concerns or ideas here for discussion. Verbal chat 17:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

• Please provide particulars for each of these issues. The article is too large for us to be guessing what they refer to. Colonel Warden (talk) 17:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Reference details added

I have added the details about what journals published cited papers, and when, for the first several missing entries. If what's desired is a demonstrable connection to reliable sources, this can be accomplished. It's simpler to use the arXiv reference, but for the purpose of correctness I'm filling in the details, as most of the papers cited were actually published in peer-reviewed journals.

JonathanD (talk) 21:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Please use only top-ranked Physics and Astronomy journals, please. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:25, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

"The utility of fractals" section

This section is about the history of fractals, not fractal cosmology. This is dealt with in the appropriate article, and should only have a single sentence with a link here. This section should either therefore be removed and replaced with a sentence and link in the lead, or replaced with a section on the utility of fractals in cosmology, or/and the utility of fractal cosmology. It should also probably be renamed. Verbal chat 11:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Page protected

Page sysop protected due to recent edit warring. Tan | 39 16:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The blanked paragraphs, and especially the blanked "See also" and "External links" sections, should be restored. Some cleanup, re-writing and filtering may be necessary, but wholesale blanking of material (i.e. removing over 10k from this 17k article) is not a sensible way to improve the article. Gandalf61 (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Diagree. The external links in particular failed WP:EL. Starting again from a solid stub is indeed the best way to improve this article. Accusing others, as some editors have, of vandalism when their edits are not vandalism is not a way to progress.Verbal chat 17:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The "External links" section included a link to an NRAO page, several links to papers at arxiv.org and a Wikiversity link. Clearly not every link failed WP:EL, so pruning would be more reasonable than wholesale deletion. And you haven't given an explanation for blanking large amounts of content and the "See also" section too. Finally, I don't think I have accused anyone of vandalism. If by "some editors" you mean someone else, then that is hardly a relevant response to my point. Gandalf61 (talk) 18:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)