Talk:List of British Jews

What about a category for doctors?

I removed Tom Baker as he is not Jewish. I realise that his father was Jewish (though I don't think that in itself is enough to call Baker a Jew), Baker's father was very rarely present during his childhood and he was raised by his mother, a staunch Catholic. He himself was an alterboy and attended a Catholic boarding school.. I see little reason to keep him on this list as he himself is clearly not a Jew. Rje 03:42, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The problem here is that Jewishness can refer to two different of things. One, of course, is religion – by which standard Baker is not at all Jewish. The other is cultural ethnicity, where Baker's mixed heritage does makes him partially Jewish. Simply knowing his father's Jewish origins is likely to have had some effect on Baker while growing up, which is why he was listed here.

A good example is Salma Hayek, which is universaly listed as half-Lebanese (or half-Arab) due to her Lebanese father, despite having chosen to be completely detached from Lebanese culture.

For this reason, I've readded Baker, but with a longer comment emphasising his religion.

Makes sense? -Juko 09:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused as to why the details (that it was his father who was Jewish) has been removed. As a matrilineal culture / religion it is fairly important to know which parent was Jewish.

I realise there was probably an aspect of making his entry in the list conform to the format of the other entries, but perhaps that format is wrong, and the other entries should say which parent was Jewish? sheridan 14:07, 2004 Nov 27 (UTC)

Baker isn't Jewish at all. His father wasn't Jewish either. I read his biography, he even mentions his mother was anti-Semitic.

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Charlie Watts admits to being Jewish in Stanley Booth's "The True Adventures of the Rolling Stones" (1984)

Do you have the exact quote or page reference? Sorry for being so paranoid – it's just that most major figures tend to be spotted by websites such as www.jewhoo.com (who explicitly claim that "No on in the Rolling Stones was Jewish") or some other reputable online source (and I can't find any). Juko 12:15, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also there is no mention of this in Alan Clayson's biography of Watts, or in other biographical Stones references I've checked. Juko 01:03, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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The previous correspondent Rje raised a good point. These lists do raise the question: who is a Jew? Is it anyone who would be regarded as Jewish by rabbinical law? Anyone who would be entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship under the law of return? Anyone who would have ended up in the gas chambers if they had been around during the Third Reich? Or who? I was thinking of raising Helena Bonham Carter anyway, I was aware that her mother came from a family of Jews who had converted to Roman Catholicism, which would make her technically Jewish, but this is the first time I have seen her described as such, and this could come as a surprise to some people in view of her "English rose" image. Another problematic case I suggest is Muriel Gray, whose maternal grandmother was a Jew by birth who converted to Christianity, she made a TV programme dealing with her Jewish identity (or lack of it). What about Catriona Grant, co-chair of the Scottish Socialist Party, whose father was a Polish Jew, but him and her mother only had a brief fling and lost contact, and she was brought up a Catholic (she's gone public on this)? What about the Karaites? PatGallacher 03:08, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This point is discussed extensively on the List of Jews page. General consensus seems to be that due to the various different definitions of Jewishness, having one Jewish parent is of sufficient interest to be listed, but that anyone with only partial Jewish origin should be clearly marked out as such. Weaker Jewish connections (e.g. only one grandparent) are only rarely mentioned – even for people with inherited 'Jewish' names, such as Andrea Levy and Ben Cohen. In my opinion, it is precisely Bonham Carter's aristocratic "English rose" image that makes her, admittedly weak, Jewish origins interesting. Juko 06:38, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

As User:PatGallacher asked - 'Anyone who would have ended up in the gas chambers if they had been around during the Third Reich?' isn't as simple a question as it would appear. Hitler didn't make proclamations like 'all Jews (by whatever definition) should go to the camps', rather he left it up to regional governors. Some were more strict than others. Myself I would have been safe in some areas (not having been raised a jew) but in peril in others (having a patrilineal great-grandmother who was jewish). As far as judaism is concerned I wouldn't 'make the grade', as it was my father's mother, but some people would consider my jewish (even though in terms of religion and culture I'm not). sheridan 17:47, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)

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I see 2 recent additions of mine have been deleted, on the grounds that "people of unproven or distant Jewish heritage belong to list of Jews only" (or words to that effect). That begs the question of how distant is distant? Do we have a consistent policy to include or exclude people with Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers? Do we have a consistent policy on people like Muriel Gray and Helena Bonham Carter, who are technically Jewish according to rabbinical law, but whose Jewish heritage is in practice rather limited? PatGallacher 13:20, 2005, Jan 26 (UTC)

First, sorry. I shouldn't have removed the entries without a proper justification.

In reply to your question: in general, figures with one Jewish parent (or equivalent) tend to be included while those with just one grandparent don't. (The reasoning is that having a Jewish parent is likely to influcence one's upbringing and worldview regardless of religion, particularly since Jewishness is also an ethnic identification. Such partial heritage, though, should always be explicitly noted unless the person clearly identifies primarily as Jewish.)

People with more remote Jewish heritage tend to be listed only if they're particularly prominent and/or have made positive statements regarding their Jewishness. So, for example, Gavin Rossdale is stricly only a quarter-Jewish, but was raised by his half-Jewish father, and sang a Jewish prayer at a recent concert in Austria. Likewise, David Beckham is quoted as saying "I've probably had more contact with Judaism than with any other religion" and is so famous that his Jewish heritage would probably have been of interest anyway. I don't believe Muriel Gray falls into this category.

In the case of Catriona Grant, I don't think she is prominent enough to warrant a listing (she's not even an MSP and in the 2001 elections she came 5th in her constituency with just 4% of the vote). Additionally, I have been unable to confirm her Jewish origins since almost no biographical material exists on her on the Web. Unfortunately, I have the memory of a fish. Your comment from earlier in the month (above) makes it clear that Grant's father is indeed Jewish.

I hope that answers your questions. If not please reply. -Juko 14:26, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

PS Regarding Helena Bonham Carter, I think it is both the fact that her entire maternal family was originally Jewish, and that she is often viewed as the quintessential 'English rose', that make her (foreign) Jewish origins worth noting. Juko

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Is there any reason to suspect that David Crystal is Jewish? I couldn't find anything online. Juko 17:46, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm removing Crystal as I suspect he is most probably not Jewish and couldn't find anything to suggest he might be. If anyone does the please readd him. Juko 11:31, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Robert Simpson (composer)

Was he Jewish?

I may have got this wrong, and if so apologies, but I understood that his father was an eminent Jewish surgeon, whose own father founded the legendary menswear store of Simpsons in Piccadilly. Anybody know anything about Robert Simpson's father? RachelBrown 21:30, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Afraid you are wrong. I know of the surgeon you mean, and his initial was L while Robert Simpson's father was also called Robert Simpson. I'll amend the article. - HF

Charlie Chaplin

Extensive research on Chaplin's ancestry has failed to find any Jewish ancestors. All of his great-grandparents appear to have been baptised in the Church of England. True, Chaplin intermittently claimed to be Jewish, though he also denied it ("I am not Jewish; I am a citizen of the World"). However, his elder brother, Sydney Chaplin, whom he idolised as a youngster, was not the son of Charlie Chaplin Snr (he was born before Chaplin's parents married). It has been speculated that Chaplin knew that Sydney's real father was Jewish and therefore he wanted to be Jewish too.RachelBrown 12:45, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

New category - religious leaders

Bit preposterous not to have people who were distinguished because they were eminent Jews - Rabbis or administrators RachelBrown

Why is that there? I take it the point is that these lists are there because they are famous or well known for something, whats the point of having people famous or well known for being jewish, in a list of famous jews? Cokehabit 02:01, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

If the idea is to have a list of people who are famous or notable, and who are/were Jewish, I see no contradiction in including people who are noteworthy mainly for their contribution to their fellow Jews. And clearly Immanuel Jakobovits, who was a life peer, or people who have articles in the Dictionary of National Biography, have a good claim to being notable. "famous or well known for being jewish" is rather belittling of such people. It might better describe people like Lionel Blue, who although a Rabbi is listed under broadcasters. RachelBrown 12:45, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

65.10.37.127

Please note that this user vandalised by removing several names (has now been blocked) but I can't do a straight revert due to later edits. TigerShark 22:49, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Christopher Hitchens

It is well known that some time in the 1990s (I think) Hitchens discovered he had some Jewish ancestry. I know that he has written about this, probably in several articles and books. I don't know the specifics: which of his forebears were Jewish, how far removed they are in the family tree, etc.

I also don't know if he should qualify for inclusion in this page, considering the concerns raised about others with similar mixed ancestry on this page. Please review this addition and consider removing it.

Olivia Newton John

Max Born and his wife were Jewish so their daughter is (edit comment by User:RachelBrown)

Not quite. According to biographer Nancy Greenspan, Born's wife was only half-Jewish, and made Born convert to Christianity after marriage. ONJ's mother was therefore ethnically 3/4 Jewish (and religiously even less).

The Jewish Year Book lists Born's son Gustav Born as fully halachically Jewish, so Gustav's sister (ONJ's mother) must be too. I assume therefore that Born's wife's mother was Jewish. The family's degree of observance is regarded as irrelevant in this list. RachelBrown 21:09, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

List should be only of British-born Jews

It makes no sense to put Jews who spent a bit of there time in Britain in this list. Those people are ALREADY on other lists. About 3/5ths of this list is of foreign born people. What is the need in repeating names? It's ridiculous and nonsenical!

Also, is Daniel Kessler a jewish name?

Profoundly disagree - where do you draw the line? For example, Michael Marks was foreign born but made no impact till he came here. Something to be said for avoiding duplication, but in that case delete them from their country of birth list, not the British one. RachelBrown 10:38, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Jewish? List

Are they Jewish? Or, Listed in?

• Hermione Gingold (Hermione Ferdinanda Gingold), 1897 - 1987 Already in the list, very Jewish φ(~.^)
• David Samuel Margoliouth Well, there are a few sites that say he was active as a Minister in the Church of England.

Really Jewish??

• Ringo Starr Nope.
• Naomi Watts I would be very surprised.

--User:Sheynhertz-Unbayg/sig 22:27, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Gingold was Jewish, yup. I believe both parents. Starr, not at all, though he is married to a half Jewish American model. Watts, I don't believe so.

Thank you! --User:Sheynhertz-Unbayg/sig 11:26, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Red Links

Do we really need all these red linked people mentioned? If they don't have a Wiki entry it probably means they A. aren't famous enough to be mentioned or B. should have an entry. Would people mind if I remove all red links?