Wikipedia talk:Deletion reform/Proposals/Uncontested deletions: Difference between revisions

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As the originator of this proposal (although it is far from original - Radiant! suggested something similar recently) can I ask that this be a discussion, not a poll at this stage. --Doc (?) 21:38, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

General Comments

Good idea. No code changes needed. Let's do it. JesseW, the juggling janitor 19:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. This also avoids the problem with proposals for early AFD closing - that some people may not show up until late, or some good argument may not be made until too late. ~~ N (t/c) 20:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a good way to make the process more efficient, while not causing any problems. Martin 21:19, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

A relatively small number of AfD articles are ever truly contested. Most are either overwhelmingly slated for deletion or overwhelmingly slated to be kept. I think we need a process to filter both kinds out quickly - this helps for those that are obvious (but not speedy) deletes, I'd also like to see a proposal for accelerated retention of obvious (but not speedy) keeps. BDAbramson ^talk 21:42, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This does not solve quick 'keeps' - but most uncontested nominations are 'delete'. However, it may help the 'keep' cases, as if someone nominates for deletion under this system, if the tag is subsequently removed - and a good reason given on the talk page (i.e. 'yes he is notable, you've missed this ...' or verifying references are added) there is good chance that the nominator will not push the point and take the matter to afd/contested deletions. --Doc (?) 21:56, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, I hope it works out exactly that way. BDAbramson ^talk 22:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. I like it but - if there are articles on AfD that are overwhelmingly voted for one way or the other, it strikes me that it would be better for CSD to be expanded, instead of introducing another class of potentially deletable articles. By extension, we could have an unlimited number of "categories" for articles ranging from "speedy deleted within minutes of creation" to "kept after 7 months of arguing", each with varying rules and thresholds. Would you consider expanding on why the purpose of this proposal cannot be accomplished by a widening of CSD?--inks ^T 23:07, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with speedy deletion is that there is almost no double-checking. I have seen many articles nominated for AfD where the nominator seemed to believe that it was an obvious band vanity or dicdef or whatever, but to have someone jump up and point out how important the subject is (or better, improve the article to the point where it is a clear keep). The waiting period and central location for people to review the reasons and votes give an easy way to ensure that every article gets at least some second scrutiny before being deleted. — brighterorange (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
- Double/triple/quadruple checking would be easy enough to implement - e.g. A Speedy article needs to have the signatures of 2/3/4/N number of admins who agree it is a speedy candidate before it can be deleted. Perhaps more importantly, the current proposal only deals with articles that are clearly deletes, and if they are that clear, we should make it easier to delete them by making use of the systems already in place, instead of creating new ones if at all possible. Also note that expanding CSD does not eliminate AfD - something Speedied in error can always be undeleted and put on AfD instead. I'm just against the extra layer of procedures, because I think we can accomplish these objectives without them.--inks^T 04:49, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - I actually considered 'scrutinised speedies' for a while, but I rejected it for three reasons. a) It is actually quite bureaucratic to implement when you think about it. b) It still gives too little scrutiny for possibly valid articles - three admins agree and it is gone - no chance for others to point out some value (they can go to AfU, but only if they know the article exists in the first place. c) Paradoxically, it is too much effort for bad articles (created in a click - but needing the form to be signed in triplicate to get rid of them). The proposal here has the merit of 'one tag and it's gone in a set number of days', yet still visible and several days for any user to halt the process - and by putting the article in a deletion category for those days drawing attention to it. --Doc (?) 08:11, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    - Hmm. I note the concern regarding deleted articles that shouldn't have been. But how extensive is the problem? Are there any studies showing proportion of speedy deletes subsequently restored? (excepting "Oops, I hit the wrong button" type mistakes). Similar to MGM's comment below, I'm also concerned that the proposal as it stands makes it too easy to push it to AfD, and then we're back where we started. Alternatively, just have people note on the articles talk page if they disagree with the speedy, and the admin can check there before deletion.--inks^T 21:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      - Most proposals to futher broaden speedy categories were roundly defeated - your idea may make sense, but it unfortunately won't get a consensus --Doc (?) 21:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        If it doesn't make consensus, it just means it didn't make enough sense :)I'd also like to say that we are both working towards the same goals, we just differ on the methods. I appreciate your responses to my comments.--inks ^T 21:37, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        
        This proposal would be very helpful for pages that don't meet the criteria for speedy deletion, but no reasonable person would want to keep (hopefully, this proposal will also take care of those articles people don't want kept, but are too lazy to vote on). Some admins fudge the CSD criteria on the very worst of these, but sometimes even those articles undeleted for not technically being speedies, and it's not good practice to bend the rules for half the articles nominated. It may not be exactly how I, or other users, want it, but quibbling over details causes a lot of good proposals on Wikipedia to fail. It can always be modified, or even abandoned, later. Still, one thing I would change is that anyone can remove the tag, except the main author. New users/anons frequently remove the AfD tag without comment or a lame excuse. Or, even the author can remove it but he has to give reasonable explanation or the tag is replaced/it goes to AfD. However, I'll support it unchanged. -- Kjkolb 10:19, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Changes

Excellent. I'd say we do this post haste, or at the very least give it a trial run for a couple of weeks; it would really help to alleviate AFD pressure (and associated wikistress).

Some ideas to consider...

An objection to this proposal has been that vandals can abuse it. While that is true, it's hardly a reason to oppose this, since vandals can abuse just about anything else (including the present deletion system) and we have pretty good systems to deal with vandals. Surely nobody would oppose the page moving feature just because it's abusable.
Another objection to this proposal has been that putting a deletion tag on an article is not very nice to the author of that article. Once more, while this is true, it's hardly a reason to oppose this, since the plain fact is that people write articles that do not belong in an encyclopedia. Unless we want to abolish deletion entirely, there will be some way of tagging articles, and this may be perceived as unfriendly. On that account, the present system is worse.
I'd prefer a syntax of {{subst:pd|reason}} and getting a bot to modify the template each day at midnight to get the correct date in there. Otherwise, the category system may be hampered by various ways of spelling the date (03-20, 20-03, 20/3, March 20, etc).
It would be best if the tag could not be added multiple times by the same user, but it could still be removed multiple times by the same user. It should be obvious that any revert warring regarding PD should immediately be cut short and superseded by AFD.
To counteract the fact that "obvious keeps" sometimes end up on AFD, it may be useful to propose that if you PD an article, you cannot AFD it, but instead must get someone else to do it. This effectively means that any motion to delete an article must be seconded before the community will discuss it. According to Wikipedia:AFD_100_days, 5.7% of AFDs are "unanimous keeps" and thus wouldn't have had someone to second the nomination.
The template should be worded so that it encourages people to edit - e.g. if an article is PD'ed because it lacks sources, people should, if they're editing it anyway to remove the tag, be encouraged (but not required) to add a source or two.

R adiant _>|< 08:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

How long should the time be?

I think the time time should be just as long as the regular AFD lag. You don't want material lying around for longer than absolutely neccesary when it's going to end up being deleted without being contested. Also, I think it may be effective at first, but when creators and vandals catch on they'll find a way to flood AFD with the nominations again. - 131.211.50.137 10:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC) (MacGyverMagic who's too lazy to sign in)[reply]

Yeah, I agree. In fact, something like 14 days means that linkspammers and advertisers can get their pages on wikipedia for 19 days (by moving to AfD on the last day before deletion). That's a lot of advertising on the 47th post popular site in the world for very little work. — brighterorange (talk) 13:28, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

One downside

I nominate a lot of stuff for AfD, so I'd like to see a way for that to become easier (even after memorizing the templates, it's still a lot of edits..). These category-based solutions are a nice way of getting the computers to do some of the mechanical work. One thing that bums me about this proposal, though, is that there is no way to record one's "vote to delete" when browsing the proposed deletion category. This means that if the discussion is moved to AfD, there's no record of that scrutiny. It's not a deal-breaker, but it does mean that the work for contested deletions becomes a bit more redundant. — brighterorange (talk) 13:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Opposed to this scheme

This will make it much harder to follow what is going on. It assumes that every article is seen by someone who knows about this process in any given period of a few days, which may often not be the case. Most new articles are probably seen by very few people so this system will expose them to bad faith nominations which may not be spotted. It will also take much more effort to review the category for inappropriate deletionist activity than to scan the articles for deletion page, as nothing but the titles will be visible at first glance. I don't accept that afd is overloaded in any case. There is still an adequate level of voting on the nominees, unlike on Categories for deletion, which is rather neglected. CalJW 19:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 44: / Line 44: @@
 I nominate a lot of stuff for AfD, so I'd like to see a way for that to become easier (even after memorizing the templates, it's still a lot of edits..). These category-based solutions are a nice way of getting the computers to do some of the mechanical work.
 One thing that bums me about this proposal, though, is that there is no way to record one's "vote to delete" when browsing the proposed deletion category. This means that if the discussion is moved to AfD, there's no record of that scrutiny. It's not a deal-breaker, but it does mean that the work for contested deletions becomes a bit more redundant. <font size=-2>&mdash;&nbsp;[[User:Brighterorange|<font style="padding : 0px 1px 1px 1px; border : 1px solid #FFE7B0; background: #FFFFFF ; color: #FF9600">brighterorange</font>]] ([[User_talk:Brighterorange|talk]])</font> 13:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
+==Opposed to this scheme==
+This will make it much harder to follow what is going on. It assumes that every article is seen by someone who knows about this process in any given period of a few days, which may often not be the case. Most new articles are probably seen by very few people so this system will expose them to bad faith nominations which may not be spotted. It will also take much more effort to review the category for inappropriate deletionist activity than to scan the articles for deletion page, as nothing but the titles will be visible at first glance.
+I don't accept that afd is overloaded in any case. There is still an adequate level of voting on the nominees, unlike on [[Categories for deletion]], which is rather neglected. [[User:CalJW|CalJW]] 19:05, 14 October 2005 (UTC)