Talk:September 11 attacks

An event mentioned in this article is a September 11 selected anniversary.

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Wow, that's a lot of templates. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

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For older discussion, see archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12

See also

• Hijackers Talk
• Casualties Talk *US governmental response Talk
• Talk:September_11,_2001_attacks/Title & comma archive (Some felt the title should be changed, as it is grammatically incorrect. Others wanted the title to stay as-is. Consensus was not reached.)
• Talk:September_11,_2001_attacks/"Terrorist" archive

Talk:September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks/Footer template - moved out of main namespace.

Please keep this notice at the top of the page, right here, so people will see it more easily. A sitewide policy on the words "terrorist" and "terrorism" is under discussion at Wikipedia:Use of the word terrorism (policy development). There is a truce on the words for this article. For details, see Talk:September 11, 2001 attacks/"Terrorist" archive. Maurreen

Clarification: The truce terms are roughly this: Keep the word "terrorist" in the first paragraph to give immediate concise information, leave in the couple of general references to "terrorist" (or variations of the word) and don't add any further description or labeling of the attacks or attackers as terrorist. Maurreen

9/11 - U.S. Candour?

What about the fact the administration allowed the attacks to continue as an excuse to attack the Middle East. Like the U.S. allowed Pearl Harbour attacks for an excuse to invade the eastern Asia’s and Japan.

-G

OT: Pentagon + Boeing?

http://lepszyswiat.home.pl/bimi/pentagon.swf

I don't know what the hell exacly happened there, but can anyone explain this video to me? Ek8 23:07, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Responsibility... (needs a fix)

Thank you to all who have contributed to this extensive article; but can someone explain the logic behind the September 11, 2001 attacks#Responsibility section. I was reading through the article (start to finish) and the flow was drastically changed after the paragraph To date, no convictions have been made in association with the attacks. and then on start of Civil engineers and the official report concluded that the collapse of... -- can we have an explanation on why the collapse of the WTC is under the heading of RESPONSIBILITY???

Sorry if this question has been raised before, but it seems that the talk about the WTC collapse is totally inappropriate -- under the current heading of course -- and also, it be best to wrap up the section on financing (such as, Osama did or did not plan the attacks but financed-or not, the attacks). I'd do my part, but seems this article and issue(s) is far beyond this rookies scope. Hey, I may have just completely missed the point, either way, if I'm wrong or do have some logic in my concern, let me know. PEACE ~ RoboAction 07:59, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

WTC buildings were unadequately protected against fire and this contributed to the collapse. This should be moved to another article, although I believe that is still relevant. BTW someone has vandalised the site I would correct it myself but do not know how. It has yet to be proved that Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda was behind the attacks. Further Al-Qaeda was only accused not found responsible of the Kenya and Tanzania bombings. --Courageous 09:04, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I remember seeing on the news that Osama bin Laden did claim responsiblity for the attacks. I can't prove it, but I do remember this happening. It seemed like it was a longer period of time, but I can't remember exactly how long. Rt66lt 01:50, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

Hilarious attacks?

Just clicked on this article and the first line reads...

The September 11, 2001 attacks were a series of hilarious attacks carried out against the United States on Tuesday, September 11, 2001.

Can someone please rectify this, I'm not sure how the article got to be this way but I wouldn't describe the attacks as hilarious.

<addendum> This article needs to be seriously edited... the titles of each section have all been changed to terms of racism.

There has been a lot of vandalism on this page today, it was reverted many times but somehow the bit about the 'hilarious attacks' was in one of the versions that others reverted to. This has been fixed, and the page has been locked now, so it will be protected against vandalism. --JoanneB 14:24, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

I imagine there's also unreverted vandalism in the "Public response around the world" section, that's empty (I don't have time right now to check the article's history to see what it was like). RodC 14:47, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

That section seems to have always been empty. I'll remove it.-gadfium 20:01, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

In Memorium

To the about three thousand folks, sixteen palm trees (in the Winter Garden), countless other living things, etc., that perished on 9/11/2001, I dedicate this section in your memory. Amen. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:55, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Editing lock?

I thought that this article was supposed to be locked against edits? Nick L. 21:32, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

"All your Base are Belong to Us"

The transcript of the fourth flight, flight 93, is listed in quotes boxes as the transcript of All your base are belong to us. It may be hacked, since I couldn't find a way to edit it out. Looking at the edit page, the real article is underneath.

disappointing article for Wikipedia

There are two sides to every story and discerning, and writing, the truth takes great effort, but on reading this article my impression is that it falls disappointingly short of the judicious, evolved, balanced presentation of facts and theories that is the hallmark of a good article. Are people scared off by the controversy, by fear of the conspiracy theory label? There is no shortage of wild, easily debunked conspiracy theories out there, just as there is an abundance of disturbing, persistent questions about the official narrative. In brief, it didn't satisfy my search, sparked by reading a controversial article, and wondering "hmmm, what does good old Wikipedia have to say about this?".

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. You can edit almost any article on Wikipedia by just following the Edit link at the top of the page. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. . Linuxbeak | Talk | Desk 16:06, September 12, 2005 (UTC)

You might look at 9/11 conspiracy theories before adding conspiracy theories on this page (which would undoubtably be reverted immediatley). I disagree that this page isn't balanced -- the truth is that none of the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 tie together the known events as well as the "official" version. However, I encourage you to check out 9/11 conspiracy theories for a discussion of alternate theories, from the absurd to the mildly absurd.  ;-) --Quasipalm 16:22, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Image:WTC7-B4-Colaps.gif

I have removed Image:WTC7-B4-Colaps.gif because:

1. Animation is inconsistent with Wikipedia Image use policy.
2. The image lacks Image copyright tags. --Kmf164 00:17, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Fourth Plane shot down theory

I have removed the newly added sentence saying that the fourth plane was shot down by the USAF and moved this claim to the 9/11 conspiracy page. There is not enough support, proof, or even murmer to add it to this main article. If it has not support at all it might be removed from the conspiracy page as well. - Tεxτurε 14:56, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Collapse theories

"There has been much speculation on the 'performance' of the Twin Towers after the impacts, and the reasons for the collapse are under active debate by structural engineers, architects and the relevant U.S. government agencies." Probably it is too much of a speculation (hence I have not edited anything yet), but since I read lots of reliable (!) technical information about this event, the main reason for the collapse ought to be fairly clear actually: HEAT. If you expose a steel construction to several thousand degrees celsius of heat emitted by that engine, even robust steel can fluidize and get a chemical consistency like lava. -andy 80.129.100.99 00:44, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

We've had this debate quite a bit on other pages. Actually, jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough for steel to melt -- however, steel doesn't actually have to melt to cause the buildings to weaken enough to collapse. So, in short, it was the initial impact damage (which some speculate blasted away fire-proofing on the steel supports), mixed with fuel and debris burning hot enough to weaken the surrounding structure until it finally gave way. There are sources on this on the 9/11 conspiracy theories page under in the links section that are skeptical of con. theories. (Some people actually think that the buildings were destroyed with explosives.) --Quasipalm 02:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Fifth plane?

In the History Channel program "Grounded on 9/11" (which detailed the Air Traffic Control and United Airlines internal traffic control involvement in the day's events, from the initial hijackings through the grounding of all commercial aircraft in U.S. airspace) there was mention of a United airliner that returned to the terminal before takeoff when the pilot was notified of the other hijackings. Several belligerent and uncooperative men of middle-eastern appearance rushed off the aircraft, abandoning their baggage, which was later found to contain "Al Qaeda materials".

Can anyone provide confirmation, further details and references for this "fifth plane" that appears to have been an aborted hijack? It should probably go in the main article if it can be confirmed...

-- Jhardin@impsec 03:01, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

anti-Bush sentiment?

I don't like the assertion in the Alternative Theories section that "[t]here is a strong linkage between radical anti-Bush...sentiment and belief in alternative theories..." Wording of this is perjorative and not at all NPOV. It seems to imply by proximity that staunch opponents of the Bush administration are likely to believe unsubstantiated theories. I'm therefore removing that sentence.

-- Sacxpert 09:25, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Three revert rule - Truth in our time

I would like to remind User:Truth in our time, User:Lamrock, User:Jimmywalter of the Wikipedia:Three revert rule. If you continue to restore your additions despite being reverted by multiple other users you can be blocked. Please use this talk page to make your case and gain consensus for your changes. - Tεxτurε 18:09, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

See also James W. Walter...sockpuppet accounts may or may not be same as person in article, but the message is the same.--MONGO 18:15, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

I do not know this James W. Walter person and do not see how his message is the same as mine. Truth in our time 09:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Changes to the introduction

The means employed by the hijackers, and their surprising efficiency, are, I think, of a paramount importance in order to understand what ensued.

Obviously, it is humiliating for a country like the United States, always ready to mock or invade smaller countries, to see that hundreds of their fellow countrymen and women were subdued by a handful of people armed with box cutters. This humiliation called for some decisive political action — and president George W. Bush did a dramatic U-turn on foreign policy (he had been elected on an isolationist platform, denouncing Bill Clinton's using the military to try to establish democracy etc. in distant countries; now, that's exactly what he pretends to be doing, big time). I don't think it is possible to understand recent US politics and foreign policies without the above elements.

Since this is a very important issue, it should be reflected in the introduction. I understand that some nationalistic "POV-pushers" are out there to remove such unsavory details, but we should not accept such censorship.

(I had to file a complaint for a bogus "3-revert blocking", by the way.) Truth in our time 09:13, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

The "Bogus" blocking performed, along with the "Rfc" are at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Golbez. Clearly, you performed an initial edit, followed by 4 reverts of essentially the same material, was subsequently blocked after being reverted by at least 3 different editors and upon the return from the block, proceeded to reinsert essentially the same material.--MONGO 09:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I contend that the fourth alleged "revert" was not a revert, since it heeded the comments by other editors. And, yes, I think this material should be inserted, as demonstrated by my talk message, and I do not approve of you, with the help of a friendly administrator, trying to censor it.

But we are here to discuss the contents of the article, not the RfC. Until you bring convincing arguments why this information shouldn't be in the introduction, I'll consider that you're trying to impose your political point of view, and act accordingly. Truth in our time 09:54, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Referring to unarmed civilians as "surrendering" is ridiculous...box cutters or not, evidence shows the terrorist also claimed they had bombs, which certainly put a damper on any possible atempts to retake the planes initially. Passnegers had no idea they were going to hit the WTC towers until it happened...they couldn't see out the front of the planes afterall. Claiming that the U.S. was "humiliated" is also POV on it's face and has no business in this article.--MONGO 10:09, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

You make the interesting comment that the unarmed civilians aboard the planes did not know (at least, not until it was too late to act) that the airplanes would be used as fuel bombs. This is probably true. Instead, they just did what was expected of passengers (at the time) in hijacking attempts — that is, not resist. That's called surrendering. See on dict.org: to give up one's self into the power of another; to yield.

The United States was also humiliated, that's evident (and is also reflected in a wide variety of commentaries, just go on Google). And it definitely has business in this article, for this humiliation explains the following policies of bravado and invasion pursued by the United States in the following years. Truth in our time 10:45, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Regardless, at least 3 editors feel that your data was not in compliance with WP:NPOV and that is why it was reverted. In the extreme liklihood that similar edits of such nature are also going to be seen as a violation of neutrality, you may wish to pursue an Rfc on said comments, achieve a consensus for the inclusion of such material, and then you'll have that to back it up. Your useage of the words "surrender" and "humiliated", along with the curious manner of the rest of the sentences don't add much to the article aside from appears to be an attempt to insult. Perhaps an Rfc on the wording should be the route you should take.--MONGO 10:59, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Revert war

Neither of the two versions are complete, we should set up a temp page, craft a consensus version, and then move to the main page. Stirling Newberry - Bopnews 16:30, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Alternative theories

Sections I don't like from Alternative theories of 911:

Because of the gaps, omissions and speculations in the public record, and because of political preferences, there are groups that actively promote the theories of the 911 attacks which vary significantly from the most widely believed narratives.

1. The expression "because of [...] political preferences" makes me think that the writer wants me to believe that who supports these theories is always politically biased.
2. Why do we speak about "groups"? There are also single individuals which write books to promote this theories.

These theories generally rest on evidence which has been (scientifically?) debunked, such as erroneous theories of the collapse of the Twin Towers. However, gaps within the public record, the lack of explanation for particular details, contradictions which have later come to light, including revelations of Able Danger, continue to fuel speculation.

1. Really "these theories rest on evidence... such as..."? Why can't we think that these false "evidences" are not essential to these theories? It looks like the writer (using the word "rest") wants me to believe that these theory are false because rest on falsehoods.
2. And what about the word "generally"? The writer says that "these theories generally rest on ...". The use of the word "generally" makes me think that the writer wants me to believe that such theories are almost always connected with these "evedences" in order to make them look less believable.

--Pokipsy76 16:01, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree, the wording of the section should follow along the lines of:

These theories have not been accepted by the investigative, scientific and or engineering communities because all the known evidence which was collected does not support the hypothesis presented by the theories. Like other scientific studies done on Bigfoot, UFO's and the Loch Ness Monster, there appears to be little or no credible evidence to support the psuedo-science presented.

That would look and sound better, I think.--MONGO 17:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

I don't know of any scientific community taking position about 119. Science has nothing to do with politics.--Pokipsy76 17:51, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

There certainly are well-respected individuals in the scientific community that have publicly said that 9/11 conspiracy theories are nonsense. 9/11 wasn't just a political event. --Quasipalm 18:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Even if it's true it would be a personal opinion having nothing to do with the scientific knowledge of these individuals. --82.53.169.101 19:34, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Speculations and alternative theories

When it's written:

These theories generally rest on evidence which has been contested by most experts in the scientific, engineering, and journalistic community.

is not clear what the writer is referring to (what kind of evidence???). I think someone who knows what it is referred to should attach some explanation.

--Pokipsy76 18:57, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

9/11 Television Archive

There used to be a page that archived the television coverage of 9/11. You could just choose a channel and watch the news. Do you have any idea where it has gone? Lapinmies 20:22, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

20th hijacker

This section kind of makes a lot of assumptions - where is the proof of all this?