Talk:14th Dalai Lama/Archive 7

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partial cleanup of list of publications

I did a partial cleanup on his list of publications, removing wikilinks to books without articles--please add back the links if the book is notable enough to justify an article--and the article is written. However, the list seems a bit of a jumble--dates should be added, and it then sorted either by date or alphabetically by title. DGG (talk) 17:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Article protected

... for a week, due to edit-warring. WP:RFPP request. Guys, try to resolve this on the talk page - you know the drill. When something has been hashed out, just ask or put in a request and it will be lifted again - Alison ^❤ 07:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Unresolved problems with the article

Criticism by religious figures

For me, the main unresolved issue is the question of anti-Chinese bias, as reflected in the deletion of the quotes from Dorje Phagmo on the grounds that two editors claim that she is some sort of Chinese agent, and also the lack of a mention in the lede that the Chinese government considers the DL to be a symbol of an outmoded theocratic system[1]. --Terrawatt (talk) 21:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This has been discussed, above. Four people, including yourself, have expressed an opinion. All were in favour of adding a section on the Dorje Phagmo's criticisms. Strettolicious and Marvin Diode stated that if the Dorje Phagmo was notable enough to have a Reuters article covering her views, this was notable enough to be included in the WP article. Nat Krause and John Nevard spoke about the limitations of her notability in an biographical article about the Dalai Lama (i.e., she is a religious figure, not a historian). Nat Krause qualified his support in the following way:

"I do think it would be a good idea to have a brief section on criticism of the Dalai Lama by religious figures in Tibet, which could include a mention of the Samding Dorje Phagmo's criticism."

I agree with this and would further suggest that, in order to prevent any further edit warring, we agree to the wording of the section on this page—such wording would thus be completely defensible as a consensus decision. How about we work out the wording of that section in the few days we have until the article is unprotected? Sunray (talk) 23:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. Do we have religious figures other than Samding Dorje Phagmo who have criticized him? --Marvin Diode (talk) 06:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I have seen a Xinhua article in which they quoted several "living Buddhas" (i.e. tulkus) denouncing the Dalai Lama for his role in supporting Gendün Chökyi Nyima as Panchen Lama. Unfortunately, the links to that article seem to be broken now and I can't find another copy of it on Google.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 15:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Exclusion of PRC view

I object to the exclusion of the views of the PRC. There are many editors who seem to think that it is entirely natural to reflect the anti-Chinese slant of the western press, but this is WP:BIAS. Western press organs have their own axes to grind, whether it be a desire to return Tibet to the colonial status it had as a British "protectorate," of whether they simply want to use Tibet as an excuse to engage in cold war brinksmanship against China. There should either be a mention of the Chinese views in the lede as in this edit, or a paragraph on the subject later in the article. --Terrawatt (talk) 21:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

There already is mention of the relations between the PRC and the Dalai Lama in the "Tibetan independance movement" section of the article. It seems to be a fairly balanced approach and it does put the PRC's views:

"The Dalai Lama has on occasion been denounced by the Chinese government as a supporter of Tibetan independence."

There is also a statement on the feudal character of Tibet:

"There has been criticism that feudal Tibet was not as benevolent as the Dalai Lama had portrayed."

I think that some additions could be made to this section. As to putting something in the lead, Sure, if we can work out appropriate wording so as not to give undue weight to his opponents. This is, after all, an article about the Dalai Lama. Sunray (talk) 23:56, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

My original edit was one sentence: However, the government of the Peoples Republic of China regards him as the symbol of an outmoded theocratic system. [2] I don't think that would be undue weight. --Terrawatt (talk) 14:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

In the lead? That does give it considerable weight. But it is an accurate statement of the PRC's views. Let's see what others think. Sunray (talk) 14:26, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Since the main notability of the subject would seem to be his conflict with China, a brief mention of the PRC view should appear in the lede. --Marvin Diode (talk) 14:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Hardly. He is notable as the legitimate leader of Tibet. John Nevard (talk) 15:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

This would appear to be a useless proclamation of your personal POV. If what you say were true, he or his representative would have a seat at the U.N. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the good old British-fighting United Nations. Didn't see that coming. John Nevard (talk) 07:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• Tibet couldn't be a member of the UN because China has a veto on new members.
• Wikipedia shouldn't assert that the Chinese government, or any other politicians, actually believe what they say. Peter jackson (talk) 17:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

According to the Wikipedia article Central Tibetan Administration, "The CTA is not recognized as a government by any country." The opinion held by Mr. Nevard may be shared by many private individuals, but it has no legal standing. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Dalai Lama Owned Slaves

Another problem with this article is, it is more like an eulogy of Dalai Lama. From what I have read in history documents over the years, Dalai Lama indeed was a slave owner, given slavery was commonplace in old Tibet. Dalai Lama perhaps the biggest slavery owner at the time (still needs verification on this). Even George Washington's article has a section about his slave ownership. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxhunt99 (talk • contribs) 15:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

But the current Dalai Lama was a child when Tibet was incorporated into the PRC. George Washington owned slaves his entire life.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 17:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to end neutrality dispute

I propose the two following edits:

1. The addition of this sentence to the lede: However, the government of the Peoples Republic of China regards him as the symbol of an outmoded theocratic system. [3] I think that even the most die-hard PRC-haters must admit that Dalai Lama's conflict with China is important to his notability, and therefore the PRC view deserves a mention in the lede.

2. Here is my proposed version of what Nat Krause suggested, under the heading of "Criticism by Tibetan religious figures":

Several tulkus or "living Buddhas" have criticized Gyatso. Most recently, the twelfth Samding Dorje Phagmo, considered to be Tibet's only female living Buddha, was quoted saying that "The sins of the Dalai Lama and his followers seriously violate the basic teachings and precepts of Buddhism and seriously damage traditional Tibetan Buddhism's normal order and good reputation." She told Xinhua that "Old Tibet was dark and cruel, the serfs lived worse than horses and cattle." [4]

My suggestion would be to add these two edits, and then I would consider the article neutral. --Terrawatt (talk) 21:12, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Endorse. --Strettolicious (talk) 06:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm wary of creating a criticism section. Could this be worked into another section? Perhaps a much-needed section on HH's religious positions and reforms. Until such a section is made though, this seems like a good solution. --Gimme danger (talk) 10:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The comments from the Samding can go in the section called "reception." I also agree with adding one sentence on the PRC view to the lede. --Marvin Diode (talk) 13:25, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm not hearing objections, I will make these two edits and remove the neutrality tags. --Terrawatt (talk) 21:16, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's correct to call him Gyatso: it's not a surname. The standard practice is to write Sanskrit names as 1 word, but their Tibetan translations as 2 (in most cases). Eg Vajrasattva becomes Dorje sempa. Peter jackson (talk) 16:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I changed it to "Tenzin Gyatso." --Marvin Diode (talk) 20:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Apparently Binguyen and Relata Refero have objections, as they have both deleted the section on the living Buddhas. This discussion started 10 days ago, and no one has opposed that section on this page. So, please state your objections. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm basically okay with the text in question remaining in the article, although I think it should be expanded a bit to include a survey of religious criticism of the Dalai Lama inside Tibet, which would allow the Samding Dorje Phagmo's specific comments to reduced and de-emphasised. However, we don't seem to have the sources we need for that at the moment. In the meantime, I think we should avoid the term "living Buddha", since it normally appears in only one kind of literature: mediocre-to-bad translations from Chinese. I suggest substituting the explanation (reincarnate lamas) for the benefit of readers who don't know the jargon term tülku (they aren't going to know what a living Buddha is, either).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 00:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The sections in question seem stable now. Should we remove the neutrality tag? --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

OK by me. Sunray (talk) 23:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Removed. --Terrawatt (talk) 07:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Links to Tibet severed?

This article rather surprisingly contains no hyperlink to the article on Tibet at present. I would fix this, but it is locked. Can an administrator fix this, please? Elroch (talk) 19:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Addition of information

In May 2008, the Dalai Lama received an honourary doctorate of philosophy from the London Metropolitan University. The LMU doctorate is in recognition of the Dalai Lama's outstanding achievements in promoting peace globally and for his inspirational spiritual guidance and leadership.

(AdamD123 (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC))

Yes I added it with 2 links: * [Honorary Doctoral Degree]] of Philosophy from London's Metropolitan University on 21 May, 2008.hellomagazine.com, Dalai Lama receives honorary doctorate of philosophy in Londonnews.bbc.co.uk, Dalai gets honorory doctorate --Florentino floro (talk) 13:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Controversy Section

Hi everyone, I've added a controversy section to address the issue of neutrality on this article. There are two very big issues, the Dorje Shugden controversy and the Karmapa controversy that shouldn't be ignored and not referenced. I have endevoured to give both sides of the arguments and to include as many objective references as I can. If any editor feels they can improve on the content, please feel free to do so but also please bear in mind that the article should be NPOV in accordance with Wikipedia policy. Thank you very much --Truthsayer62 (talk) 10:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

note to Blnguyen. It seems evident that you don't want this article to include criticism of the Dalai Lama, yet such controversy and criticism exist and need to be included to make the article more balanced. You've reverted criticism a few times now. The material on controversy is well referenced, including BBC news reports - the fact is the Dalai Lama HAS been protested against. The article needs to reflect current news facts. --Truthsayer62 (talk) 01:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

It looks, from the edit history, like Blnguyen often deletes material with no explanation, either in edit summary or on the talk page. I believe that this is poor Wikiquette. --Terrawatt (talk) 06:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that the last version of the paragraph on the Karmapa issue, added by User:Iheartmanjushri (oṃ namo Mañjuśrī) was well-cited and should remain in the article.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 03:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, friends. Can anyone please provide a valid reason why the short paragraph added about the Karmapa issue was deleted? --Iheartmanjushri (talk) 16:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The citation used is not a reliable source according to WP:VER which states: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." The source used does not meet this description. Sunray (talk) 06:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point -- obviously the open letter written by this group of Kagyu people was not neutral and was taken from the organization's website. However, the paragraph I added only said, "Here is what this group of Kagyu people think. Here is what they stated in their open letter." This was merely a reporting of one group's disagreement with the Dalai Lama, and did not attempt to state any "facts" about the Dalai Lama, other than the fact that there are some known controversies surrounding him. As this section is a section on controversies, and as this is a well-known, well-documented controversy, it seems only fair to include this group's point of view. Furthermore, if I am going to state, "This group of disaffected people feels they have been wronged because of XYZ," isn't the best, most "reliable source" for such a statement that group of people's own words? Your statement that it is a reliability issue does not make sense in this particular context. It is illogical to say that it is "unreliable" to represent a group's opinion by quoting that same group's own document!

In the spirit of compromise and consensus building, I would be happy to accept a re-write about the controversy surrounding the Karmapa. If you prefer to use a different source than the open letter I quoted from, I would be happy with that, too, as long as someone fairly and accurately represents this controversy.

Truthsayer62 said earlier that there are two main controversies currently around the Dalai Lama: One of them is the Shugden issue, which is currently included in the controversies section. The other is the Karmapa issue, which I attempted to insert and which was promptly removed. Let's put it back in the section in some form; I believe it deserves at least a short paragraph. Thanks. --Iheartmanjushri (talk) 05:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I think Iheartmanjushri is right. A letter from IKKBO is a reliable source for the fact that a controversy exists.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 16:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Would anyone else like to take a shot at putting a paragraph in about the Karmapa issue? If no one does, I will put mine back in within the next day or so. Thanks. --Iheartmanjushri (talk) 06:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Surely a letter does not a controversy make. Anyone can write a letter. The thing about writing letters is that one is not required to do any fact checking. So no, the source is not good enough. However, if this is notable, there should be a source that meets the requirements of WP:VER. Since this is a biography of a living person, we do have clear standards to meet. If someone can a) find a reliable source, and b) write it up in a neutral manner then we can defend it and avoid edit wars! Sunray (talk) 07:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the IKKBO isn't just anybody. And it can hardly be in doubt that there is a genuine controversy: there is even a Wikipedia article on the subject. However, you're right that we can provide better sources. I have three books on the subject, so I suppose I can cite them. Now, you have brought up an additional point: NPOV. Can you elucidate?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 07:20, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the merits of the IKKBO, the letter by H. Luehrs is a political tract full of highly charged language. It would be hard to quote from this letter in a neutral manner. Moreover, this is an ancient conflict that has little to do with the present Dalai Lama. I think a paragraph from the WP article about the Karmapa controversy sets the situation in perspective:

Of the two 17th Karmapas, Ogyen Trinley Dorje has been recognized by Situ Rinpoche and Gyaltsab Rinpoche. In July 1992, both asked the Office of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala to confirm their recognition. The 14th Dalai Lama confirmed the recognition of Ogyen Trinley Dorje. The head of the Sakya school, H.H. Sakya Trizin and the future head of the Nyingma school, H.H. Mindroling Trichen Rinpoche also recognised Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the reincarnation of the 16th Karmapa and composed long-life prayers for him. The government of the People's Republic of China has also accepted him.

A neutral account would have to reflect that the heads of each of the other lineages and the People's Republic of China all recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje. However, as stated above, this controversy is not about the Dalai Lama. The account of it belongs in the article on that subject, rather than here, IMO. Sunray (talk) 08:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

But Sunray, what makes it controversial as regards the Dalai Lama is that it is not his school -- and therefore not his place to recognize a recognition of the Karmapa. Why would a Nyinmapa, Sakyapa, and Gelugpa get involved in the recognition of a Kaguypa? Prove to me that this has a historical precedent. If it has no historical precedent, after centuries of Karmapas, Sharmapas, and Dalai Lamas, then one certainly must question why the Dalai Lama got involved -- especially given the consideration that the previous Karmapa opposed the Dalai Lama's attempts to consolidate the different schools of Tibetan Buddhism into one. These points indeed make it an interesting question, as well as a controversy about the Dalai Lama.

What's more, you're talking about a significant group of people who are stating that the Dalai Lama had no business in involving himself in this matter, including the Sharmapa, for heaven's sake. The Sharmapa is no splinter bit of the Kagyu school: when one of the major figures of the Kagyu school stands opposed to THE major figure of all contemporary Tibetan Buddhism, this is certainly a noteworthy controversy!

Finally, open letters are quoted in other articles to represent one side's particular point of view, and no one has removed them as an "unreliable" source. I don't see why this open letter should be treated any differently.

Nat: Perhaps you will draft a new paragraph based in your sources so that we can include this controversy in this section once more. Thanks, Sunray, for bringing up your concerns. I hope that we can create something you will be happier with. --Iheartmanjushri (talk) 15:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Iheartmanjushri:You make a strong case for the notability of the Dalai Lama's involvement in the Karamapa controversy. In particular, you argue that the fact that it is precedent-setting, along with the Dalai Lama's fame, both serve to make the Dalai Lama's actions notable.

With respect to the H. Luehrs letter: it does not meet the requirements for verifiability, has been challenged, and therefore cannot be used.

However, the policy on Biographies of Living Persons dealing with well-known public figures gives us some guidance, I think:

In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Wikipedia biographies should simply document what these sources say...

As Nat has said, there should be plenty of sources we can use. Sunray (talk) 04:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking back at the original paragraph in question, it occurred to me that the average reader would get the impression from the reference to "International Karma Kagyu Buddhist Organisation" that this is the Kagyü sect speaking (it's actually the representative of one of the two sides in the controversy). Being familiar with it beforehand, I didn't notice the potential for misunderstanding. If nothing else, we should make sure that gets corrected.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 04:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable source?

This link was removed by Tdudkowski as an "unreliable source." What exactly makes it unreliable? It is evidently from a book which has been published in German and English. --Marvin Diode (talk) 21:27, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This citation is not suitable for a biography of a living person, IMO, particularly since the source has been challenged by an editor. We must bear in mind that "exceptional claims require high-quality reliable sources." The policy defines reliable sources thus: "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks." Sunray (talk) 07:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Coordinated Stealthy defamatory attacks by NKT organization

The marketing propagation and defamatory attacks by New Kadampa Tradition's formidable organization is against Wiki rules. Furthermore they try to hide this coordination. They are a sectarian group against the Dalai Lama. The following users who edited this page can be easily seen by their contributions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Truthsayer62

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Iheartmanjushri

other members are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Dspak08

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Emptymountains

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Atisha%27s_cook

They have ensured biased versions of the following articles with concerted illegal methods:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Kadampa_Tradition

Can someone tell me which section of Wiki is the right place to report this coordinated organization campaign so they can be watched?

I had previously pointed out a sockpuppet successfully (GlassFet-who gave me multiple warnings before being exposed). I suspect one or more of the editors above are sockpoppets of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Wisdombuddha

I don't want to take it to admin forum since it might not be the right place. Thank you in advance. Thegone (talk) 02:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

These are heavy accusations. This is certainly not the right place to take this, an admin forum would be. You'll need to present some evidence instead of tarring several editors. Gimme danger (talk) 03:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

They propagate the sectarian Shugden cult fronted by NKT as can easily be checked with a little effort. As for my suspicion regarding sokpoppets it has basis due to their concerted effort which I started to uncover in the Rime article's talk page[5] and followed the leads from there to other articles where the coordinated pattern is easily seen. The only real accusations which are false are against real people like the Dalai Lama and the main body of Tibetan lamas (non-sectarian) by them (cyber nicknames) who act like a stealthy pack as can be seen by checking their contributions which is against Wiki rules (hidden coordinated organizational campaign). Thanks for your comment. I thought there might be a special section (watch-board) for possible sockpoppets. I'll wait for a few other suggestions before I take it there just to make sure. Thegone (talk) 03:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

There is. Gimme danger (talk) 04:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thank you Sir/Madam Thegone (talk) 04:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

This is very true, a few months ago, for example the article on Dorje Shugden was a delicate balance between pro and cons of the practice, then this edit war supposedly by NKT supporters started. If you look at it now, even the controversy section does not cite any sources against this practice anymore... Users like Kt66 have been trying to do something to balance this kind of disintegration of these articles, but had to give up in despair. Not sure what can be done about this kind of stuff though.rudy (talk) 11:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

If you believe there are coordinated attacks on this or other articles, the best course of action would be to involve more editors through Requests for Comment. I would caution, however, against excessive speculation about the motives of the editors you don't like. Wikipedia policy is to focus on the merits of the edits, not the editors. --Marvin Diode (talk) 14:10, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

_________________________________________________________

Dear all,

I am in the process of also calling into question the NPOV status of the following articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden_controversy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorje_Shugden

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelsang_Gyatso

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Kadampa_Tradition

1- Can someone tell me how to do that also?

2- Is there an admin section to complain against organized marketing effort of an organization enforcing bias?

Thank you in advance. Thegone (talk) 23:47, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I beg your pardon! I am certainly not part of any "coordinated attack" or "organized marketing effort"! I will very happily state that I am a student of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's, but this is no different than kt66/Tenzin Peljor very happily stating his affiliation with the Dalai Lama. Therefore, if my point of view is biased, then so is his. I would imagine that there are few completely neutral editors in this "edit war", because it is unlikely that many would get involved in a relatively obscure Buddhist debate other than Buddhists themselves who already have some stake in the matter. If I am guilty of bias, then so are many others.

At any rate, I must use the term "edit war" quite loosely, because before recently deciding to step into the fray, the articles mentioned above were *heavily* biased against the New Kadampa Tradition. From my side, all I have ever done is strive to give the "other side of the story" where it has been lacking. You can see this for yourself by examining what I have written and in what context -- I have never once deleted anyone's opposing point of view, even though others have erased changes of mine they did not like. Contrary to what you accuse, I have acted utterly independently and am no "representative" of the NKT. I have been polite, I have accepted advice, and I have followed all the Wikipedia guidelines as I understand them.

The only thing I would agree with you on is that there are more students of Geshe Kelsang's who are beginning to speak up and make their voices heard. For many years the NKT's good name has been dragged through the mud all over the internet, and NKT students have by-and-large remained silent. Where was your concern then, when people like kt66/Tenzin Peljor blatantly, intentionally, and admittedly tried to steer this site and the opinions of those reading it against the NKT? Where was your concern then, that both sides of the story were not being told? Now, due to the current controversies and peaceful demonstrations against clear acts of religious discrimination, many more NKT students are choosing to break their silence. This is no "coordinated attack". This is a group of individuals who are tired of watching the tradition, the teacher, and the practice they love get unjustly dragged through the mud.

And you know what? They have a right to their say, too. The anti-NKT people have had their say, with negligible opposition, for a long time. Now more voices will be heard. Your unjust accusation, rather than deterring me, silencing me, or embarrassing me, only strengthens my resolve to be one of those voices. Congratulations -- you have awakened my stubborn streak, and will likely be seeing much more activity from me on Wikipedia in the future.

I do not know who you are, but your agenda to have only one side of the story told is overwhelmingly obvious. Good luck with your witch-hunt; you will find no more "real" evidence than Salem ever did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iheartmanjushri (talk • contribs) 04:05, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to agree mostly with Iheartmanjushri. Clearly, some editors will always be biased and will only be interested in promoting a certain view. Collaboration is discouraged if it tends to promote that sort of behaviour. However, that doesn't mean that all editors who agree with a particular viewpoint are therefore disruptive. For instance, Thegone includes Iheartmanjushri in his list of suppressive persons, but I found Iheartmanju to be quite reasonable in my brief interactions with him or her. Iheart is also correct in saying that "there are few completely neutral editors in this 'edit war', because it is unlikely that many would get involved in a relatively obscure Buddhist debate other than Buddhists themselves who already have some stake in the matter." Personally, I don't have a dog in this race, being neither a followers of NKT or of the Dalai Lama's, and I find myself with little stomach for involvement in these disputes.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 05:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Iheartmanjushri is a member of the NKT cult. A sockpoppet with many names has been identified. Some in his team of editors are the same sockpoppet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Wisdombuddha

They vandalize the Wiki articles on their cult and Dalai Lama as part of their daily appointed chores scheduled by their cult centers around the US and Europe. We will seek a general Wiki policy to watch out for them and blacklist them as predatory organized mass marketing serial vandals. This is made worse as many former members who have been abused have managed to classify NKT as a cult. Shugdenpa have been linked to the murder of Gelug lamas in India as testified by the Indian police, , sexual abuse as self confessed by its top leaders and much more. http://www.antishugden.com/component/content/article/35-organization/49-dharamsala-murder-linked-to-shugden-group http://www.antishugden.com/interview-with-prithvi-raj-chief-police-of-kangra/1-latest-news/48-interview-with-mr-prithvi-raj-superintendant-of-police-kangra-district http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/CTA-book/chapter-5-1.html It is very unlucky to support the Dolgyal (Shugden) cult not only for this lifetime but for many lifetimes to come, many of which could be in hellish realms for extremely long times according to ancient texts. All schools of Tibetan Buddhism have expelled them including the monastery of their leader. Read tibet.com or http://www.antishugden.com.

If you don't know what you are dealing with when it comes to Dolgyal, I advise you to research first. Good luck. Thegone (talk) 00:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Iheartmanjushri is a member of NKT, apparently. So what? The other editors in this discussion have been suggesting that you discuss the quality of the edits rather than the qualities of the editor. This is not the appropriate forum from which to air your grievances about the NKT or Dorje Shugden.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 02:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Nat, that is very kind of you.

Thegone, I am afraid that what you are doing constitutes a "Personal Attack" by Wikipedia standards. If Wikipedia Administrators look into your behavior and find it to be a "Personal Attack", they can give you a warning, and if you persist, they can even block you from making edits. I am sure that you would like to remain a participant on Wikipedia, so please consider this definition of "Personal Attack":

Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse. (Emphasis mine)

You have every right to believe that my religious beliefs are not legitimate, and you have every right to practice your own form of Buddhism as you see fit. However, at least according to Wikipedia standards, you do not have the right to continue to use this kind of abusive language towards practitioners of Dorje Shugden. Please be aware that I will use the proper Wikipedia channels to report this behavior if you continue. Thanks. --Iheartmanjushri (talk) 13:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)