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An '''MSNBC Conservative''' is the counterpart to "[[Fox News Liberal]]" and is a pejorative term used to describe erstwhile conservative commentators, or RINOs, that often agree with liberal candidates and policies. The most prominent examples are [[MSNBC]] host [[Joe Scarborough]] and MSNBC contributor [[Peggy Noonan]]. All were either Republican officials or worked in Republican administrations, yet now take positions in sympathy with the Democratic party and the American left. MSNBC contributer [[Patrick Buchanan]] and former bow-tied host [[Tucker Carlson]] are sometimes considered in this category because they hold [[paleoconservative]] views, that are felt to be out of touch with the neo-conservatives views that are prominent in the modern conservative movement, and cause them to side with modern liberals on certain issues like the Iraq War, free trade, and government jobs programs.
An '''MSNBC Conservative''' is the counterpart to "[[Fox News Liberal]]" and is a pejorative term used to describe erstwhile conservative commentators, or RINOs, that often agree with liberal candidates and policies. The most prominent examples are [[MSNBC]] host [[Joe Scarborough]] and MSNBC contributor [[Peggy Noonan]]. All were either Republican officials or worked in Republican administrations, yet now take positions in sympathy with the Democratic party and the American left. MSNBC contributer [[Patrick Buchanan]] and former bow-tied host [[Tucker Carlson]] are sometimes considered in this category because they hold [[paleoconservative]] views, that are felt to be out of touch with the neo-conservatives views that are prominent in the modern conservative movement, and cause them to side with modern liberals on certain issues like the Iraq War, free trade, and government jobs programs.


The [[Fox News Channel]] is viewed by most to be a channel that appeals to conservatives while MSNBC is a channel that caters to liberals. Each network features such bombastic personalities as [[Sean Hannity]] and [[Bill O'Reilly]] on Fox News and [[Keith Olbermann]] and [[Chris Matthews]] on MSNBC. The networks attempt to feature guests and hosts from the opposite view point, but many believe that the "Fox News Liberals" and "MSNBC Conservatives" are mere foils that advance the agenda of the more aggressive hosts by either offering weak support for their side or by tactically agreeing with the main host's arguements. [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fox%20News%20liberal] [http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0621/p09s02-coop.html] [http://www.newsbusters.org/node/7338]
The [[Fox News Channel]] is viewed by most to be a channel that appeals to conservatives while MSNBC is a channel that caters to liberals. Each network features such bombastic personalities as [[Sean Hannity]] and [[Bill O'Reilly]] on Fox News and [[Keith Olbermann]] and [[Chris Matthews]] on MSNBC. The networks attempt to feature guests and hosts from the opposite view point, but many believe that the "Fox News Liberals" and "MSNBC Conservatives" are mere foils that advance the agenda of the more aggressive hosts by either offering weak support for their side or by tactically agreeing with the main host's arguements. [http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0621/p09s02-coop.html] [http://www.newsbusters.org/node/7338]


==RINO and GOP policy==
==RINO and GOP policy==

Revision as of 14:17, 9 January 2009

Republican In Name Only, or RINO, is a neologism created by Los Angeles conservative activist Celeste Greig. It is considered a disparaging term for a member of the Republican Party of the United States (the GOP) whose political views or actions are perceived as insufficiently conservative or otherwise outside the party mainstream.

Origin

Celeste Greig, a long-time Los Angeles conservative Republican, created the acronym RINO and designed buttons that bear the epithet. In 1994, she named former Los Angeles Mayor Richard Riordan the "chairman" of the RINOs and former Congressman Michael Huffington the "vice chairman" of the RINOs. At this time, she bestowed each of them with the RINO button, which both wore, helping the term to become widely popular.

General criteria

The term implies that, despite party affiliation, RINO politicians are not "authentic" Republicans. The label is usually acquired because a politician's political actions, policies, positions on certain issues or voting records are considered to be at variance with core Republican beliefs. The term is only used by conservatives. They believe that the party's core beliefs are conservative and therefore that politicians are not true Republicans unless they adhere to conservative beliefs. The targets of the term argue that there is no litmus test for being a Republican, but rather a commitment to the party organization, especially support for party candidates. The targets argue that conservatives from outside the party who use the term are not true Republicans because they do not support the whole ticket.[1]

The term does not imply that the Republicans in question are Democrats, Libertarians or independents; they are still recognized GOP members. Note that Senator Jim Jeffords (VT) was called a RINO until he left the party in 2001 and became an independent. The term is often used to describe politicians at the congressional level, but can be applied to members of any governmental branch or electoral constituency.

MSNBC Conservative

An MSNBC Conservative is the counterpart to "Fox News Liberal" and is a pejorative term used to describe erstwhile conservative commentators, or RINOs, that often agree with liberal candidates and policies. The most prominent examples are MSNBC host Joe Scarborough and MSNBC contributor Peggy Noonan. All were either Republican officials or worked in Republican administrations, yet now take positions in sympathy with the Democratic party and the American left. MSNBC contributer Patrick Buchanan and former bow-tied host Tucker Carlson are sometimes considered in this category because they hold paleoconservative views, that are felt to be out of touch with the neo-conservatives views that are prominent in the modern conservative movement, and cause them to side with modern liberals on certain issues like the Iraq War, free trade, and government jobs programs.

The Fox News Channel is viewed by most to be a channel that appeals to conservatives while MSNBC is a channel that caters to liberals. Each network features such bombastic personalities as Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly on Fox News and Keith Olbermann and Chris Matthews on MSNBC. The networks attempt to feature guests and hosts from the opposite view point, but many believe that the "Fox News Liberals" and "MSNBC Conservatives" are mere foils that advance the agenda of the more aggressive hosts by either offering weak support for their side or by tactically agreeing with the main host's arguements. [2] [3]

RINO and GOP policy

With regard to electoral strategy, the Republican National Committee (RNC) will usually lend support to an incumbent member in a primary election, even if their beliefs are outside the Republican mainstream or if they are criticized by some members of the party as being a "RINO". The rationale is that the incumbent is more valuable to the party than the newcomer because he or she already represents a core GOP constituency and may have achieved seniority in office. Conservative activists outside the RNC contend that it is better for the party to lose the seat—and even risk political clout or a legislative majority—rather than retain elected officials who are seen as too liberal.

Regional differences and political history

The word was introduced nationally in an article by Gardner Goldsmith, which appeared in Investor's Business Daily in 1998, and came into widespread usage around 2000, particularly during the election campaigns of that year. While the term is new, the concept of being a member of a party but not representing its mainstream is not uncommon in American political history. In 1912, former President Theodore Roosevelt, then-President William Howard Taft and Senator Robert LaFollette fought for ideological control of the Republican Party and each denounced the other two as "not really Republican." The Taft faction went on to control the national ticket until 1936.

Me-too Republicans

From the 1930s on, another phrase for RINOs has been "Me-too Republicans"; those who ran on a platform of agreeing with the Democratic Party, proclaiming only minor or moderating differences [4] [5]. This was often blamed for Republican losses, because one "might as well vote for the real Democrat":

Let me warn the nation, against the smooth evasion which says, 'of course we believe all these things, we believe in social-security, we believe in work for the unemployed, we believe in saving homes -- cross our hearts and hope to die, we believe in all these things. But we do not like the way the president's administration is doing them. Just turn them over to us. We will do all of them, we will do more of them, we will do them better, and best of all, the doing of them will not cost anybody anything.' [6] -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Nixonians, and Rockefeller Republicans

From 1936 to 1976 the liberal side of the Republican party frequently won the national nomination with candidates such as Alf Landon, Wendell Willkie, Thomas E. Dewey, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Richard Nixon, and Gerald Ford. Indeed, other terms for Liberal Republicans include Nixonian and Rockefeller Republican. The mainstream of the party was generally supportive of the New Deal, and the conservatives were the more marginalized faction. In the 1950s conservatives like Barry Goldwater, who railed against "me-too Republicans",[2] were considered outside of the mainstream of the then-centrist GOP; they seriously considered leaving the GOP and forming a new conservative party in cooperation with conservative Democrats.[3] After 1980 there were few if any open liberals in prominent positions in the GOP, except for numerous "moderates", such as George H. W. Bush, who had run for president on the stance that Reagan's Conservative platform was "voodoo economics".[4]

The term RINO typically comes into play during primary season as candidates vie for the party nominations. Because primaries are usually decided by more active party members, a challenger may employ the tactic of accusing his opponent of being a RINO while positioning himself or herself as a "true" Republican. There have been instances of party discipline being applied in favor of moderate Republicans, especially if the party leadership believes the latter candidate has a better chance of winning the general election (see RINO and GOP policy above).

Putative RINOs sometimes proudly claim to be so, countering critics by saying that they are "Raging RINOs" - Republicans / Independents Not Overdosed (on the Party Kool Aid).[5] The "Kool Aid" in the name is a reference to the mass suicide by members of the Jonestown cult.[citation needed]

"Accused" RINOs and RINO hunters

Rudy Giuliani and Colin Powell have been labeled as Republican In Name Only by some conservatives who denounce them as too liberal.

Michael Bloomberg

An example of someone accused of being a RINO is Michael Bloomberg, Mayor of New York City, who switched party affiliation from Democratic to Republican shortly before he ran for mayor so as to avoid a punishing and expensive Democratic primary between Mark J. Green and Fernando Ferrer that seriously weakened Green's chances in the general election. Bloomberg is a highly successful businessman (estimated to be worth $5 billion) with strong support from Wall Street but, like his predecessor, he holds many liberal policy positions, including support for gun control, opposition to the death-penalty, a pro-choice position on abortion and support for a powerful regulatory system [citation needed], among other liberal positions. In June 2007 Bloomberg changed political affiliations again, this time becoming an independent.

Rudy Giuliani

Bloomberg's predecessor, Rudy Giuliani, was also criticized for his very liberal positions on various key conservative issues (abortion, gun control, etc.).[citation needed] He is a former Democrat who switched to the GOP when Ronald Reagan was elected President, but continued his affiliation with the Liberal Party of New York.

Mike Huckabee

Mike Huckabee has come under criticism for his handling of the case of Wayne DuMond (also spelled Dumond), a convicted rapist who was released during Huckabee's governorship and who subsequently sexually assaulted and murdered a woman in Missouri.[6]

Former Arkansas State Representative Randy Minton (R) has said; "[Huckabee's] support for taxes split the Republican Party, and damaged our name brand."[7] The group has pointed out that Huckabee publicly opposed the repeal of a sales tax on groceries and medicine in 2002, signed a bill raising taxes on gasoline in 1999, and signed a $5.25 bed-tax on private nursing home patients in 2001.[8]

Huckabee supported a 2005 bill by Arkansas State Representative Joyce Elliott to make some illegal immigrants eligible for scholarships and in-state college tuition[9][10][11] while vehemently opposing a bill sponsored by Arkansas State Senator Jim Holt which would deny state benefits to illegal immigrants, calling it "un-Christian."[12]

Lincoln Chafee

Another alleged RINO is former Senator Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island. The most liberal Republican in the Senate during his time in office, he struggled to fend off a more conservative Republican opponent in the 2006 primary, and was ultimately defeated in the general election by Democrat Sheldon Whitehouse. Among the positions he took that were perceived as outside the Republican mainstream were his stances against the Congressional authorization for the Iraq War and against the Bush tax cuts. He was also quite liberal on social issues such as abortion and same-sex marriage. Chafee publicly announced that he would not vote for George W. Bush in 2004, instead casting a write-in vote for the more moderate former President George H.W. Bush. However, the RNC strongly supported his primary battle and reelection attempt in 2006.[13][14] In 2007 Chafee changed his party affiliation to independent, after years of speculation that he would leave the GOP. Former Senator Chafee endorsed Democrat Barack Obama for President in 2008.

Colin Powell

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell has been considered a RINO after endorsing Democrat Barack Obama in 2008.[citation needed]

Arnold Schwarzenegger

Current California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been considered a RINO after encouraging opponents to Proposition 8 to continue fighting against the measure in November 2008, proposing a significant increase in California sales tax, significantly increasing California government spending, siding with 'amnesty' groups over illegal immigrants residing in the state, and aligning with coalitions of state governments seeking 'bailout' assistance from the federal government.[citation needed]

Voluntary RINOs

Those Republicans who are labeled RINOs sometimes counter that the conservatives who call them RINOs are too far right and too politically naïve. They point out that they can and do win in moderate and liberal areas, and they claim that without their votes the Republicans would have lost control of Congress (this argument lost some of its strength when the Republicans did lose control of Congress in the 2006 elections). Moderates in the Northeast and upper Midwest often point out that the GOP is a historically moderate party with roots in the Northern United States, while many of their conservative critics (especially in the South) are recent converts to the party. Examples include Alabama Senator Richard Shelby, and former Louisiana Congressman Billy Tauzin, both of whom began their political careers as conservative Democrats.

Liberal Republicans say the "RINO" term is only a rhetorical device used to exaggerate the importance of several key issues for many conservatives, most notably abortion and taxes. In recent years, conservatives that are liberal on such issues such as immigration amnesty, and the Iraq War, like Lindsey Graham, John McCain, and Chuck Hagel have been labeled RINO's.

Some conservative organizations use the term RINO to help describe some of their activities. For instance, California's National Federation of Republican Assemblies started the "RINO Hunters' Club" and the Club for Growth (which demands more tax cuts) started the "RINO Watch." Both groups say they are committed to party unity.

RINO accusations since 2004

Two Republican senators who have been labeled RINOs by conservatives such as the group Club for Growth and Human Events magazine[15] are Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island.[16][17]

In 2004, Specter drew a conservative primary election opponent in Rep. Pat Toomey. Toomey had significant financial support from the Club for Growth while the Young Conservatives of Pennsylvania provided volunteers. While the Club for Growth opposed Specter's role in increased federal spending, many conservatives focused on Specter's pro-choice views on abortion. Specter was supported by the GOP establishment including President George W. Bush and Senator Rick Santorum. This support helped Specter win by a narrow 17,000-vote margin.

In 2006, Chafee received over $1 million from national Republican party officials, especially the National Republican Senatorial Committee. Chafee defeated Steve Laffey, the mayor of Cranston, Rhode Island. When Chafee was one of six Republican incumbents who failed to be reelected in 2006, (losing to Sheldon Whitehouse), the party indeed lost its Senate majority.

Comparisons of liberal vs. moderate Republicans

John Nichols, a correspondent for The Nation (a left-leaning political magazine) argued in a 2004 article[18] that "Using the measures that progressives might reasonably apply to define a liberal... it is possible to point to just one [current Republican] senator, Rhode Island's Lincoln Chafee, and two members of the House, New York's Amo Houghton and Iowa's Jim Leach... A somewhat larger circle clings to the moderate GOP mantras of a Gerald Ford or a Richard Lugar, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, but they are fading fast as a force in Congress."

It should be noted that the three Republican congressmen whom Nichols considered liberal (Chafee, Houghton, and Leach) are out of office. Chafee and Leach were defeated in the 2006 elections, whereas Houghton did not stand for reelection in 2004.

While Delaware representative Mike Castle claims that there are 40-45 moderate Republicans in the House, Nichols remarks, "That's actually a bit of a stretch — either of the numbers or of the definition of a 'moderate'."

Anti-RINO political groups

Some of these groups have accused Republican politicians of being RINOs:

  • CFG — Club for Growth - Advocates fiscal restraint, tax cuts and limited regulation of commerce.[19]
  • CWA — Concerned Women for America - Advocates restrictions on pornography and opposition to gay marriage and anti-abortion legislation.[20]
  • CWF — Campaign for Working Families - advocates increased border security, repeal of gun control laws, abortion restrictions and support of a flag-burning amendment.[21]
  • NFRA — National Federation of Republican Assemblies - advocates increased border security, repeal of gun control laws, abortion restrictions and support of an anti-flag-burning amendment.[22]
  • RM PAC — RightMarch.com Political Action Committee - purpose is to raise and distribute funds for, to and independently on behalf of conservative candidates, and against liberal candidates (including Republicans), in targeted primary and general federal elections across America.[23]
  • RNC/Life — Republican National Coalition for Life - dedicated to keeping the Republican Party pro-life.[24]

Political groups considered to be RINO

While the term RINO is largely subjective, these groups are often criticized for being RINO:

Individuals claimed to be "RINOs"

Note: The publications and organizations listed below are neither part of nor associated with the Republican Party, although many of them are politically conservative.

Family Research Council's Top 10 RINOs in the House of Representatives

The Family Research Council's list of the Top 10 RINOs in the U.S. House of Representatives (published October 12, 2005). Ranked by an analysis of 13 votes representing a cross section of conservative issues, most of them concerning gay people, abortion, or stem-cell research.[25]

1. Rep. Christopher Shays (Connecticut)
2. Rep. Michael Castle (Delaware)
3. Rep. Sherwood Boehlert (New York)
4. Rep. Mark Kirk (Illinois)
5. Rep. Jim Kolbe (Arizona) (tied for 5th)
5. Rep. Rob Simmons (Connecticut) (tied for 5th)
7. Rep. Wayne Gilchrest (Maryland) (tied for 7th)
7. Rep. Jim Leach (Iowa) (tied for 7th)
9. Rep. Mary Bono (California) (tied for 9th)
9. Rep. Nancy Johnson (Connecticut) (tied for 9th)

Boehlert and Kolbe retired from Congress at the end of their terms in 2006. Simmons, Leach and Johnson were defeated in the 2006 elections. Gilchrest was defeated in the Republican primary in 2008 by Andrew P. Harris and Shays was defeated in the 2008 general elections. After the general election of 2008, three of the members of Congress on this list, Castle, Kirk and Bono, remained in in the U.S. House of Representatives.

National Journal's Top 25 Liberal Republicans in the House of Representatives

National Journal (a nonpartisan magazine) list of the 25 most liberal Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives in 2005.[26] Ranked by a weighted analysis of selected roll call votes by National Journal magazine.[27]

Representative......is more liberal than __% of the House on these issues:
rank Name Economic Social Foreign Average
1Leach, Jim, IA-2 54 58 72 61.3
2Paul, Ron, TX-14 54 55 72 60.3
3Shays, Christopher, CT-4 53 55 53 53.7
4Castle, Michael, DE-AL 51 58 49 52.7
5Boehlert, Sherwood, NY-24 52 54 50 52.0
6Johnson, Nancy, CT-5 51 54 50 51.7
7Kirk, Mark, IL-10 49 57 48 51.3
8Ehlers, Vernon, MI-3 46 55 52 51.0
9Johnson, Tim, IL-15 52 51 49 50.7
10Simmons, Rob, CT-2 51 54 47 50.7
11Wilson, Heather, NM-1 49 55 47 50.3
12Flake, Jeff, AZ-6 47 48 54 49.7
13Gilchrest, Wayne, MD-1 48 53 47 49.3
14Jones, Walter, NC-3 51 44 52 49.0
15Ramstad, Jim, MN-3 52 43 51 48.7
16Biggert, Judy, IL-13 42 52 51 48.3
17Schwarz, Joe, MI-7 45 51 45 47.0
18Bartlett, Roscoe, MD-6 45 49 46 46.7
19LoBiondo, Frank, NJ-2 53 46 40 46.3
20LaTourette, Steven, OH-14 50 45 42 45.7
21LaHood, Ray, IL-18 46 44 48 46.0
22Otter, Butch, ID-1 41 45 51 45.7
23Bass, Charles, NH-2 43 47 45 45.0
24Fitzpatrick, Mike, PA-8 53 47 34 44.7
25Reichert, Dave, WA-8 45 44 45 44.7

Leach (IA-02), Johnson (CT-05), Simmons (CT-02), Bass (NH-02) and Fitzpatrick (PA-8) were defeated by Democrats in 2006 where as Schwarz (MI-7) was defeated in the Republican primary. Boehlert (NY-24) retired from politics and Otter (ID-1) made a successful run for Governor of Idaho. Ron Paul, although ranked as the second most liberal House Republican, is generally considered to hold libertarian or sometimes paleoconservative / paleolibertarian and strict constructionist views (he was the Libertarian Party's 1988 Presidential nominee). His high percentage of liberal votes is likely due to his opposition to the Patriot Act (on libertarian and constitutional grounds), and his opposition to the World Trade Organization, the North American Free Trade Agreement and other major free trade agreements (Paul is not opposed to free trade, he merely opposes foreign organizations regulating it), among other matters; the Congressman's views are actually consistent with the platform positions of the Texas Republican Party, one of the most conservative state parties in the country. The inclusion of Walter Jones, Butch Otter, and Jeff Flake may also pertain to this situation, as they are frequently regarded as staunch conservatives, but hold strict constitutionalist positions, similar to those of Congressman Paul.

Rep. Charles Bass, NH-2, lost his house seat in the 2006 mid-term elections.

See also

References

  1. ^ Richard Skinner, "Interest Groups and the Party Networks: Views From Inside the Beltway" (Paper for the Southern Political Science Association Convention) at [1]
  2. ^ Farewell to a Quartet of Kings of the Hill - TIME
  3. ^ Rick Perlstein, Before the Storm (2001) p 13
  4. ^ http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0760625.html
  5. ^ Raging RINOs, The Politburo Diktat (blog), June 17, 2005. Accessed 27 October 2006.
  6. ^ "Arkansas Times article". Retrieved 2007-02-10.
  7. ^ Another Man From Hope Wall Street Journal October 26, 2007. Retrieved November 26, 2007
  8. ^ Dan Gearino. "Huckabee cites differences in tax increases". Retrieved 2007-10-28.
  9. ^ Blomeley, Seth (2005-02-23). "House panel endorses college scholarship bill". Arkansas Democrat Gazette. Retrieved 2007-11-10. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  10. ^ http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/ftproot/bills/2005/public/HB1525.pdf
  11. ^ Current Bill Status
  12. ^ Thompson, Doug. "Immigration bill un-Christian, anti-life, governor says". Arkansas News Bureau. Retrieved 2007-08-13. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
  13. ^ Dave Nalle, GOP Leadership Backs Chafee for Victory in Rhode Island Primary, BlogCritics.org (blog), September 14, 2006. Accessed 27 October 2006.
  14. ^ John Fleischman, Senator Dole: I will NOT send the NRSC a dime, FlashReport, September 19, 2006. Accessed 27 October 2006.
  15. ^ Top 10 RINOs (Republicans in Name Only), Human Events, December 27, 2005. Accessed online 27 October 2006.
  16. ^ "Specter in tight race as Pa. voters make choice". USA Today. Associated Press. 2004-04-27. Retrieved 2007-12-24. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  17. ^ Katherine Gregg (2006-11-10). "Anger at his own party". Providence Journal. Retrieved 2007-12-24. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  18. ^ John Nichols, Republican Cannibals: Hunting for RINOs, The Nation, 27 August 2004. Accessed 27 October 2006 on the Agence Global site.
  19. ^ Club for Growth home page; page cited for identification only, no directly relevant content.
  20. ^ CWA Legislative Action Committee (CWALAC); page cited for identification only, no directly relevant content.
  21. ^ CWF Issues and Legislation; page cited for identification only, no directly relevant content.
  22. ^ NFRA Statement of Principles; page cited for identification only, no directly relevant content.
  23. ^ RightMarch.com PAC: About Us; page cited for identification only, no directly relevant content.
  24. ^ About RNC for Life; page cited for identification only, no directly relevant content.
  25. ^ Vote Scorecard for 109th Congress - First Session, Family Research Council; page does not contain actual scorecard, but allows user to obtain card if they supply their contact information. Page accessed 27 October 2006.
  26. ^ House Liberal Scores, National Journal Special Report: 2005 Vote Rankings, February 24, 2006. Accessed online 27 October 2006.
  27. ^ How The Vote Ratings Are Calculated, National Journal Special Report: 2005 Vote Rankings, February 24, 2006. Accessed online 27 October 2006.

20. Democrats say McCain nearly abandoned GOP http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/democrats-say-mccain-nearly-abandoned-gop-2007-03-28.html

21. http://www.patrickruffini.com/2007/12/30/flashback-the-real-john-mccain

22. Jonathan Chait. Why John McCain is the Democrats’ best hope. What’s in a Name? New Republic | Issue date 04.29.02

23. GOP USA Forum http://www.gopusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46084