Talk:Battle of Megiddo (15th century BC)

I have two printed works that say 1479, but twice as many online references say 1469 (tho many are WP-derived), and there are a few websites that use both 1469 and 1479 on the same page(!). Which should it be? Stan 04:33, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I have moved the page to Battle of Megiddo (15th century BCE), a. to reflect the uncertainty as to the precise dating of the event (though noting that by far the best accepted date amongst Egyptologists is currently 1457 BCE); b. to remove the BC and make it BCE "before Christian era" - far more acceptable overall Pjamescowie 18:08, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Should siege of Megiddo be merged into this? I don't think there is really enough information to warrant to separate articles, and they are part of the same event. Adam Bishop 20:32, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Unstubbed

I've done my duty. Finding this a stub, I researched what I had. I found the German Wikipedia version pretty complete. I merged that with what little this article started with, added bits from my sources. Others can take it from here.

This also covers the Siege of Megiddo, what little there is. I don't think there will ever be enough for a separate article on that. I will redirect Siege of Megiddo to here.

Chronologically, this is the first ancient battle article; only about 1500 more to go. --A D Monroe III 22:55, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You did an excellent job. But according to Hittite tablets, found in the last century, the battle might have actually have been a stalemate. The expansion of Egyptian territory might have come more from diplomacy than from battle. The accounts taken in this article are from the Egyptian side only. The truth is, the archaeological and historical evidence is too scant to determine if this was truly an Egyptian victory on the battle field, I think that should be mentioned. --User: Diggerjohn111 17:52, 13 Apr 2007 (UTC)

Egyptrivia

Dupuy's Evo says Egyptian scribes (under Thutmose III) were the first to do body counts after battles ended. --Trekphiler 23:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed copyvio by Egyptos

I've reverted his edits as they were basically copyvios from http://touregypt.net/battleofmegiddo.htm and http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/megiddo.htm -- as are many of his edits on other articles.--Doug Weller (talk) 20:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Eighteenth and Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt conflicts with Kadesh in and around Megiddo

• In the reign of Thutmoses I, as the third ruler of the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt from c 1506 to 1493 BC, Thutmoses I pursued the Hyksos expelled from Avaris north into Canaan and Palestine with the furthest extent of his penetration going north into Syria. There is no mention of his having attacked Megiddo.
• In the reign of Thutmosis II c 1493- 1479 neither he nor his wife Hatshepsut pursued any substantive campaigns north.
• In 1479 BC, not long after Kamose expelled the Hyksos and Ahmose founded the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, Tuthmosis III moved against the king of Kadesh at Meggiddo. In the reports to Thutmosis III when hes at Yenhem or what the Bible calls Yenoam before the battle he is informed that the King of Kadesh has allies to include Syria, the Nahrin and the people of Kode. His advisors point out that he has a choice of courses to go toward Meggiddo, he can take the narrow Aruna road or the easier kings highway which comes out at the north. Thutmosis III choses the narrow southern route which comes out at the brook of Kinon south of Megiddo.

• The events of Judges may or may not come after the Exodus; they are two separate books.

• The Hyksos are likely more than one people. The earliest arrivals at Avaris go back to c 2500 BC, and foreign power in the emporia there dates to the 11th and 12th dynasties. By the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, in the four centuries since their arrival, all the foreign kings of the Hyksos have spread out throughout Egypt pursuing trade from the Red Sea emporia at Elim as well as from Sais and Avaris.

• Some of the first Canaanite Hyksos are portrayed entering Egypt in the Twelfth dynasty tomb of Knuhmhotep at beni hasan. The dynasties from the Twelfth to the Eighteenth exist during a period of disruption possibly associated with the eruption of There c 1621 BC.

• There may well have been two separate expulsions with the expulsion of the Hyksos from Thebes coming slightly later, in the reign of Hatshepsut c 1479-1458 BC than the victories of Kamose agaist Avaris.

• If you allow that the Exodus of Moses leaves from Thebes in the time of Hatshepsut because her commentaries on the Hyksos show some familiarity with and intense dislike of them, and that they leave from Thebes to cross the Red Sea from Thebes port of Elim to Elat at the head of the gulf of Aqaba, while those defeated at Avaris are pursued north by Thutmosis I then the total span of time of the expulsion and pursuit is about eighty years.

• The story of the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt and the expulsion or Exodus of the Hyksos begins when there has already been a semitic presence in Canaan and Palestine going back several centuries to the time of Abraham. Clearly some parts of the events in the north are told separately from the events of the Exodus in the south.

• The events of the Exodus begin with the birth of Moses and the opening of hostilities agaist the Hykso c 1550 BC although the crossing of the Red Sea comes when Moses is eighty c 1470 BC and the entry of the people into Canaan is c 1430 BC. Dated from the building of the temple it comes out c 1450 BC or if you allow that the semitic lunar calender is 11 days shorter than a modern solar calender it comes out c 1436 BC. The events of the Amarna letters follow about 40 years thereafter.

From the internal evidence, the earliest possible date for this correspondence is the final decade of the reign of Amenhotep III, who ruled from 1388 (or 1391) BC to 1351 (or 1353) BC, possibly as early as this king's 30th regnal year; the latest date any of these letters were written is the desertion of the city of Amarna, commonly believed to have happened in the second year of the reign of Tutankhamun later in the same century in 1332 BC.

• In reports very similar to the Egyptian campaign accounts of the ongoing conflict with Kadesh, the papyrus Anastasi I, the Books of Judges and Joshuah, with some of the Amarna letters mention a large chariot battle at Meggiddo. It seems unlikely that there was more than one battle to be described in this way.

• The importance of the Jezreel valley and the Via Maris in campaigns against or through its main cities along the western side, and guarding the various passes from the Sharon: Jokneam, Megiddo, Taanach and Ibleam, between Megiddo and Mount Tabor shows up in the Papyrus Anastasi I where it mentions the battle and provides some details of the participants and routes which were considered

  Sumer, Byblos, Beiruit, Sideon, Zareptah, the river Litani, Usu on the shore opposite Tyre, then Tyre itself on an offshore island, the pass of the cliffs, Ras en Naqurah, Acco and Acshaph, where does the Acshape road come, at what town

• The Account in Judges IV tells of the battle from the side of the king of Kadesh.

Judges 4:4 ...Deborah,...judged Israel at that time. Judges 4:5 she dwelt ...between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: Judges 4:6 she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh naphtali, ...Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun Judges 4:7 I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand. Judges 4:9 ...Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. Judges 4:10 Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him. Judges 4:11 the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh. Judges 4:12 Barak the son of Abinoam was gone up to mount Tabor. Judges 4:13 Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon. Judges 4:14 ...Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him. Judges 4: Jabin the king of Canaan

• The account in Joshua tells of the battle from the sidelies over by Yenoam. Joshua shared in all the events of the Exodus and faced a northern Canaanite king, Jabin of Hazor, whom he defeated at the Waters of Mermon. In the distribution of lands Judah gained the first lot, although they failed to drive out the Canaanites living in Jerusalem. Then the house of Joseph got its territory, Ephraim failing to drive out the Canaanites of Gezer. These are the same places mentioned as fighting with ha ibrw in the Amarna letters.

• Allowing that there is some linkage between Exodus, Deborah the judge, Barak the king of Kadesh, Jabin the king of Canaan, the mention of the routes to Tanaach and battle of Meggido in the Papyrus Anastasi I, the Egyptian campaign literature, the Amarna letters and the books of the penteteuch and that the battle of Meggiddo occurs c 1479 BC while the passage of the Red Sea occurs c 1470 BC, the period of judges is contemporary with the reign of Hatshepsut and that of the Amarna letters ending c 1332 BC and spanning about two centuries until the battle of Kadesh with Ramesses II c 1285 BC.

• Its possible to see the battle of Meggiddo as one battle in a war between Egypt and Kadesh that has yearly campaigns throughout the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, but its hard to find any other examples of a large chariot battle at Megiddo within this window of two centuries where both accounts refer to the Egyptians attacking along the narrow southern route across the brook of Kinon and thus the accounts of the battle of Judges IV should be included in the account of the battle .Rktect (talk) 16:04, 12 January 2009 (UTC)