Talk:Khalilullah Khalili

Sources

I've reverted wrong and misleading edits by a new user. Please use the talk-page first. And please do not use wrong or unrelated sources! Tājik (talk) 20:28, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Dear Tajik:

I do not see any reasons for your motives. Perhaps you might consider facts.

I think I did it ok, the previous article on him was confusing and some-times incorrect. I have added sources and because of those important parts specially regarding his origin, as people of whom we Afghans consider "Anti-Afghans" a word famous for its members has alarmed many Afghans. I think it was their work to make sure his bio, get messy please read it again. Its confusion and rises a lot of questions/controversies. Wikipedia is to solves those problems and not ignoring facts. I tried my best to make sure it made sense, next to those facts I placed wiki-Hyper-links, such as connecting with Safi, a tribe of Pashtun origin, and a source to make sure there is no confusion. Safi is a well known famous tribe of the region with over 700 years of history their name has been mentioned, many times, in many history books. Unfortunately people do not see it right to connect such simple facts. He wasn't Persian Which basically refers to a greater linguistic group in Iran, making up 51% of Iran (CIA Factbook), and he wasn't Tajik, another linguistic living in Turkistan (Afghanistan/Uzbekistan/Turkmanistan and their known state driving the word "Tajik" =Tajikistan) [[1]] The Tajiks as you can see from the above map can be found anywhere in Turkistan, which means they also live in Afghanistan, might of immigrated into Afghanistan during 19th Century when Russian Empire was expanding in the region some 500,000 Tajik people moved south, however further during 20th century known as Russian civil war of "1917 to 1921 affected Tajikistan as an estimated 200,000 to 480,000 people, many of whom participated in the basmachi uprising, fled to Afghanistan" [[2]] Anyways that's a different story. What we need here is to prove his origin as "Tajik" a Turkistani linguistic group speaking a dialect close to "Persian", or Iranian Persian. This is important, a greater confusion has been created in Wikipedia, where many not only confuse facts with the ferry tales, but also make-up their own "facts".

Indeed there is a greater difference between a from Turkic race speaking a Persian language (Which they did in their empires such as Suljaks Persian was their main language but their origin was Turkic, which were like people of modern Tajik, and a person classified as "Persian" ie true identified as Iranian ie Pars Province/capital of their Empire is their "true home"e. One speaking a Persian does not mean he/she is Iranian, maybe Iranian by their tongue because of their language and linguistic classification the people of Tajiks are referred by their language Tajiki a form of Persian dialect. Just as over half billion people speak English but that does not mean all of them are of "English" origin, the English came from many races.

We must not be confusing ourselves from a native groups belonging to Afghanistan, Iran and Turkistan. In conclusion all I have to say is that if he considered himself "Afghan", meaning he belongs to Afghan origin, either by a tribe/Clan or linguistic means, and we shell not make-up something for him, just give a little heads up for ourselves and our own selfishness. Simply because I am Tajik and he is also Tajik because we speak a language that share many words here and there., resulting in something which he is not, and it would be an insult, to define him as "Persian" or Tajik, creating a confusion over who is what. When he consider himself "Afghan", therefore he is Afghan... one can easily read one of his books and would notice he mentions the word "Afghan nejat" "Nejat" an afghan word for "Race" over 20 times.

Chi Shoud Afgan Nejat, sarbazan Chi shoud Nago ki pai basta sarbazan chi shoud. Further he goes by finishing Aman Afgan ki padarish, dar yadish bood Bego ki chi shoud afgan nejan, chi shoud

Wasn't he a Afghan nationalist? Yes he was. So why need of mentioning "Tajik nationalist" in his bio? Again Why bother read anything or need of any such source when the whole world knows belonged to an Afghan tribe of Safi. Just open any of his books and see his name, in the front page, and if he didn't his tribe/clan mention "Safi", then it means either its not his book, or a misprint, one of the two.

Please take your time read it again.

Thanks

Alishah85 (talk) 23:43, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

a) Your edits are no improvement at all. The quality of the new version is really poor, as well as its English. Besides that, you do not use any reliable sources. The two articles you have posted (one by NY Times, and another by an unconfirmed private blog with no credibility) are not considered sources by wikipedia (see WP:Source)

I don't understand Tājik's comment here about the NY Times. WP:Source says "In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." The New York Times is usually considered a mainstream newspaper. --Bejnar (talk) 21:41, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

It depends on how you use newspapers. The New York Times is a reliable source when it comes to current events, but not when it comes to biographies. However, this is not the issue in here. If you check Alishah's sources, he has posted some weird links claiming that "the original version was posted" by this or that University, News Paper, etc. Tājik (talk) 22:23, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a source for "not when it comes to biographies"? Libraries regularly use The New York Times Biographical Edition and its replacement The New York Times Biographical Service as research tools. Of course there is a big difference between paid obituaries and professionally done ones. Paid obits are generally so marked. --Bejnar (talk) 22:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Now, go and check Alishah's edits. If you find The New York Times Biographical Service among his provided references, then let me know ... Tājik (talk) 23:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

b) You missunderstand the original version. It does not say that he was a Tajik nationlist, but that he is sometimes associated with Tajik nationalism. Khalilullah Khalili dedicated his most important work, "Hero of Khorasan", to Habibullah Kalakani, the only ethnnic Tajik in Afghanistan's history to rule the country.

c) Khalili's father was not a Safi, but only the family of his mother.

d) Your theories about Tajiks and Persians and so forth is simply pseudo-scientific nonsense and - to a large part - racist. Claiming that Tajiks are not original inhabitants of Afghanistan but "immigrants who moved to the country in the 19th century" is pure nonsense and racist, unsourced propaganda pushed forward by Pashtun ultra-nationalists and the Taliban. Supporting this kind of racist and pseudo-scientific propaganda may get you blocked permanently. So I urge you to remove the text. Anyway, I have reported you to admins. Tājik (talk) 01:33, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Alishah, I agree with Tajik on this one. We need good sources, like newspapers and books, blogs are not something we can use. However, poor English can always be fixed, and correct sources will correct any controversies we have with each other. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 01:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Give Alishah a few days to get his sources. After that, we'll partially revert anything that is not correct. --♥pashtun ismailiyya 01:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

To: Tajik

b) Dear Tajik please try to understand I mean no such offense. I have fully understand that there are Tajiks in Afghanistan (As i mentioned Tajiks are almost everywhere in Turkistan, aside from Turkistani nation of Tajikistan be if its Afghanistan or Turkmanistan, they may be few or more but Tajiks are everywhere This is a fact simple they are more then enough sources to prove this, I as an being myself are aware of their existence and what i gave above (along with a source) was an average Afghan understanding of Tajiks and their existence to Afghanistan, how/when etc etc can be balanced back and forth and maybe i shouldn't of mentioned it. But I was alerted with the word UTajik Nationalist/U, and the question that i ask "If Tajik nationalism exists in Afghanistan" then a source should be provided. Because I know there are Azeri Nationalists in Iran, who are looking for greater Azerbijan, there are Kurdish nationalists exists in Turkey, where they are looking for their greater Kurdistan.

Now since you mentioned Habibullah Kalakani, and he maybe Tajik or not but this is very much of unknown as he has no backround history, clans or any tribal system/names which would consider him Afghan other than "Kalakan" a small village in Afghanistan. The only thing which we do know of him, its his father's lower status in the Afghan army "Son of water carrier" or "Bachi Chaga-how". Since most sources consider him "Tajik" well that's fine. We have Tajiks in Afghanistan as I mentioned above. But Again consider this to be true Amanullah Khan the reformist, who was walking on the steps of Ata Turk such as removing of headscarf, modesty, availability western fashion, etc etc. I mean it was good I personally support him, but not hardcore Muslims, even today when people still fallow Taliban and there are some large number of Afghans who still support Taliban. Imagine what would it be like during 1920s, being modern or even wearing pants were banned during Habibullah Kalakani Why? because his backers and supporters were Islamists and hardcore Sunnis, it has nothing to do with Tajik nationalism and during his time i don't think there would be such function if it did, I am very sure he wouldn't get supporters. Now having said that. If someone really thinks there is a Tajik nationalism going on in Afghanistan, i am very sure today Afghanistan is a free country, under supervision of 35 non-Governmental organizations, and under 100 news and medias from 100s of nations who have members trying to help build Afghanistan, and without any force any nationalist group in Afghanistan can get their voice out into the Air if they want "Greater Tajikistan" etc etc you know what I mean. (Although there is person by the name of Latif Pedram, belonging to Ismaili sact who I think is trying to use this opportunity, even yet still he only gets 1.3 % of the votes, which i think are his religious backers), but other then that I know non, perhaps Mr. Tajik you can help me identify "Tajik" nationalists/organization who are fighting for their "greater Azerbijan" etc etc.

a) Well you have every right to judge it in any ways you like, but again if its English maybe you can help me with that. But someone CAN't CHANGE or HIDE FACTS, just to fit their own made up ideas of who he was etc etc. I had used http://ishkbooks.com/books/QUKK1.html please see http://ishkbooks.com/ stands for INSTITUTE FOR THE STUDY OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE and because they sell Khalilollah Khalili they have give a mini description, and that's fine if you don't consider that have a look at https://www.target.com and search for his book. Same thing has been said. I used this link to point out that he is also considered to be a "Sufi".

The Other source which I used is http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE6DF113CF937A25756C0A961948260 New York Times is also a well known famous newspaper in United States. I have included some useful information which was not available in your version, such as information regarding his family, his documented death date etc.

Another Source Which I used often and made reference to important points such as his origin/tribal name. http://www.afghanmagazine.com/arts/khalili/khalili.html This is one of the well known magazine in United States for the Afghan community. and If you think this has not been used in wikipedia. You be surprised that sometimes this is the only source used.

Look at the one i edited and compare the sources and reference from old one the one you prefer. Speaking of "unconfirmed private blog" you should look at the one you wanted people to see. "Bitter Fruit Falling" by Khalilullah Khalili  ??? It doesn't even exists! God its 100% blog where Afghanmagazine.com is well known and famous among Afghan community, its not blog!!!, Consider another one of your Blogs. An article by Said Ehsan in the Lamar-Aftaab online magazin You consider http://www.geocities.com a confirmed source? Please have a look, just click the link and this is what you see a picture at the bottom [u] (This picture is from the cover of "Deewaan-e Khalilullah Khalili", a collection of Khalili's poems. Published: Erfan Press, Tehran 1378 hejri shamsi. Arranged by Ebrahim Shari`ati, cover design by Musa Akbari. ISBN: 964-330-632-1)[/u] Right and look at the bottom reads [u]* An article by Said Ehsan in the Lamar-Aftaab online magazine [/u] Now can you please click into hyperlinked "Article" that link right ON you see http://www.afghanmagazine.com/arts/khalili/khalili.html isn't same source which I used. Great now we have something in common, now you still deny my work. That's why I said PLEASE HAVE A LOOK AT YOUR OWN SOURCE. What changes did I made? Well I removed that middle link from to An article by Said Ehsan in the Lamar-Aftaab online magazin Lamr Aftaab is from Afghanmagazine.com which you just called a ""unconfirmed private blog"" so which one would it be? Let see another External source http://www.spyoftheheart.com/c2.php [u] The story of one American exploration of Islamic spirituality within the turmoil of Afghanistan!!![/u] another Blog! if not blog what you consider this to be? and finally "Restoring Poetry to Afghanistan" by Steve Coll you consider NPR to be useful and not New york Times???

Anyways My conclusion:

He is an Afghan by root ie he belonged to Safi tribe both from mother and father side, He is not associated with any "tajik nationalism" since it doesn't exist at all, and as an Afghan myself, I make sure I provide you with enough source, so that I am not violating any policies of Wikipedia.

Nothing Personal no need to report me for anything. Indeed we are here for making Wikipedia a better source. It has been given a bad name for all such reason as above, where people with power change stuff without any reason or considering facts etc etc. Anyways I shell come up with something within a Day as Mr. PashtunIsmailhia said, I need some time.

Thanks

bye

Alishah85 (talk) 09:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I have asked you to stop racist slanders, but you continue it. I also asked you to provide reliable sources after reading WP:SOURCE, but you have noting reliable to offer. The links you have provided are not reliable sources. So, it will be deleted anyway. Tājik (talk) 13:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC) Dear Tajik I mean no harm again I do understand which "racist slanders" are you referring to? I went trough again to make sure i made no such bad/racist slanders, Again dear Tajik, I am sorry by heart, i have no means of disrespecting your, people of central Asia are great people and no-one would dear to have any reasonings for being Racist against any of its group. or any other groups. Alishah85 (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Origin

Dear Tājik and dear User:Nepaheshgar I have made some minor changed but not as many as before, because this would lead into an edit war, and no-body wants that. So let put an end to this. The misunderstanding came when Tajik did not paid attention to the sources which were already available before my editings, and the ones I provided which were much directly-linked compared to blogs and personal web-pages. Now I have edited few minor stuff with with reference which i think is not enough but more then enough. Please forgive me if I have English problem, I tried my best, not to make mistakes, and if you guys can help me out in this, please do so. This is all for the sake of Wikipeda.org and for better understanding and dependency of Wikipedia.org.

Thanks

bye

Alishah85 (talk) 21:09, 16 January 2009 (UTC)#

Please read WP:SOURCES. The articles you are inserting into the article do not fit the requirements. Tājik (talk) 22:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, they do meet the requirements of WP:SOURCES, saying they don't doesn't make it so. You and I have had this discussion. NY Times obits are fine, as are magazine articles, absent something better. --Bejnar (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

then please provide your own source. I have Dari-Afghan books and much more. but if I post it again it would be same result of dissatisfaction, simply because its not "English" therefore it doesn't meet the requirements.

Alishah85 (talk) 23:18, 16 January 2009 (UTC) Alishah85 (talk) 02:03, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

• IP editor 84.59.202.75 has posted the following citations for a Tajik origin:

The Quatrains of Khalilulah Khalili - Institute for the Study of Human Knowledge

Orient - Von Nah- und Mittelost-Verein, Deutsches Orient-Institut, 1992, published by University of Michigan

Modern Afghanistan: A History of Struggle and Survival; from Amin Saikal, Ravan Farhadi, Kirill Nourzhanov; published by I.B.Tauris, 2006

Unfortunately the citations are incomplete. All three lack page numbers, and the middle citation appears to lack author and title as well. See Wikipedia:citing sources. The Modern Afghanistan citation appears to be to p. 94 which says One of them was Khalilullah Khalili, arguably Afghanistan's most celebrated poet of the twentieth century. Khalili, himself a Tajik and a contemporary ... Unfortunately that source provides no more than that. A search of WorldCat failed to identify an edition of Quatrains of Khalilulah Khalili published by the Institute for the Study of Human Knowledge. Orient is a journal that is published by Nah- und Mittelost-Verein (Germany) for the Deutsches Orient-Institut; however, no article author or title, volume or year is provided. On that basis I have removed the two unverifiable citations.

There does seem to be agreement that Khalilulah Khalili (Khalīl Allāh Khalīlī) was from the Safi clan, but not about what the Safi clan was, namely either (1) a Pashtun clan that had been, at least partially, Persianized or (2) a coalition of various Tajik families formed in the middle of the 19th century to protect their lands from Pashtun nomads. To pick between those two we need citations to reliable published sources. I have removed reference to "Tajik" and "Pashtun" and the above two choices, pending citations to reliable published sources about the nature of the Safi clan. Please discuss this on the talk page before making edits. Hopefully we can achieve consensus if only among the non-IP editors. --Bejnar (talk) 21:37, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah...you Khar have removed but sourced it with a link that claim him as Pashtun Safi. Just one question. If Pashtuns were not so shameless and so pathetic poor...why should they borrow Persian names for their dirty people and tribes? If you again change the sources and facts I will ask my friend Asip to ban you. Last warning! Keep your dirty salafit sources in your a** for your sister or brother and kundad-hari-boy-friends--84.59.202.75 (talk) 21:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC)