Talk:Ingushetia

Comment

This is an outstandingly level-headed report, preserving NPOV on a tense subject. Wetman 05:50, 12 Feb 2004 (UTC)

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Does Ingushetia really border Kabardino-Balkaria and Stavropol Krai? It doesn't look like it does on the maps that I have seen. Nicke Lilltroll

It indeed does not. The map I initially used was not all that clear, too. I made the corrections to the article. Thanks for pointing this out.--Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 13:50, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

Not Real

Has anyone investigated whether or not this place is real? I think this may be a hoax - some hints that it is fake are that it has way too many vowels in the name for a soviet republic, it sounds vaguely reminiscent of the anime cartoon Inuyasha and many of the edits have been made by a small set of users. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.64.97.67 (talk) 19:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's definitely a real place. Here is an article on the BBC news website about it: [1]. Here is one from Reuters: [2]. Here is one from the Voice of America: [3].

Also, it's not a Soviet Republic. There are no Soviet Republics. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Ingushetia is a federal subject of Russia (specifically, a Republic of Russia). --82.18.14.143 (talk) 22:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

cruel brigands?/?

That the neighbors "know" the Ingush to be cruel brigands is not fair language. Perhaps there is a "reputation" for being strong opponents when crossed. ~ RD

"Two Tanks destroyed with one rocket propelled grenade" - seems a little far fetched am prepared to stand corrected if you can point another firm example or even explain how it could be done, but i get the point they can pretty mean. excellent article about a war hidden from view

I think you are talking about an Ingush national who fired an RPG and blew up two T-80 tanks in Grozny. Yes, it did happen he used RPG-7 launcher and attached a bundle of anti-tank grenades to the tip of the warhead. Two T-80's were in a close proximity (attached tail to tail for the battle in the city). The explosion of a first tank caused the destruction of the second.Ingushetia (talk) 17:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

den

"uncontrolled Ingush Informal Armed Groups (IAG) from Nazran started the aggressive[citation needed] assault upon North Ossetian territory."- this is absurdity.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.6.38.132 (talk • contribs) . ...which is exactly why a citation has been requested. There is no need to request citation for each word, by the way—one note is sufficient when a whole sentence is under doubt.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) 20:25, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The wikipedia is constantly being changed. Thats why you can find lots of irregularities. I will try to modify the article and bring it to the standard of the wiki.Ingushetia (talk) 17:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Military History of Ingushetia

Hello. The information about tripling the troops is taken from Yahoo News. IT IS NEWS NOT HISTORY. It is irrelevant in Military History of Ingushetia. The information already present in Modern Ingush History section.Ingushetia 06:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Ingushetia

Where is it in the Modern history section? News items can be placed in history sections as the most recent contemporaneous events. El_C 07:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Read "Modern Ingush History ... Ingushes are known by the following names: Ghalghai, Gelgai..." use "find on the page" of the Internet Explorer and type in "Modern Ingush History" hit Enter. It will land you on the target. Then scroll down to "The number of terrorist attacks in Ingushetia on the rise especially after the number of Russian security forces were tippled". Interesting don't you think? Ingushetia 07:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Ingushetia

Tripled from what? Where are the 2,500 troops mentioned? El_C 07:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll look for your response on your user talk page, seeing how you're blocked. You were warned to exercise restraint about reverting. El_C 07:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yahoo news are producing lies. Russian news agencies said that two ethnic Russians and an Ossetian killed a school teacher however Yahoo News was quick to blame the "rebels" in the article. I guess that's how Commies work: kill civilians and blame their opponents. Are you a Commie El_C? Ingushetia 18:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)Ingushetia

Ah, the truth comes out. It wasn't, as you earlier had claimed, that it was mentioned elsewhere in the article, but rather, it's Yahoo News "telling lies." You probably should stick to articles you are not as emotionally attached to. El_C 21:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Question

“ It seems that he wanted to liberate the land for Ossetians and Cossaks ”

Johanna Nichols' paper is used to reference this sentence. I haven't found such words there though. Is it a mistake or have I missed something? Alæxis_¿question? 07:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

It's quite understandable. Try search button on the web browser. One example: "All Russian governments -- czars, Soviets, post-Soviet Russia -- have used various means to remove Chechen and Ingush population from economically important areas and to encourage settlement there by Russians and Russian Cossacks; hence the mixed population of the cities and lowlands." keep reading you will see more on the Berkley website. Ingushetia

Yes, I've read this. However as you can see Ossetians aren't mentioned in this passage. Alæxis_¿question? 17:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)Ingushetia (talk) 17:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Anyway Alexis I am going to provide sources for every mark "citation needed". Its just ridiculous that you put the marks almost after every word in the article.Ingushetia (talk) 17:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC) P.P.S. Read further "Ingush homes and lands were given to Ossetians" Don't worry I will provide more sources just like with the village of Zaur. Thanks.

Actually I've read it as well. This is obviously true but it's written about the 1944 events and has nothing to do with Yermolov. Alæxis_¿question? 17:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

You are confused. Please re-read the article. Yermolov is not used there. Thanks Ingushetia (talk) 18:06, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

yes, I was mistaken. 'He' refers to the Czar:

“ The same year Russian Tsar offered help in deportation of Ingushes and Chechens to Turkey and the Middle East by claiming that "Muslims need to live under Muslim rulers". It seems that he wanted to liberate the land for Ossetians and Cossaks[14]. ”

The Berkeley paper tells about much later times (1944 deportation). Alæxis_¿question? 18:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Again please re-read and put the citation mark. I will deal with it later. Thanks Ingushetia (talk) 18:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

peaceful?

What is this word supposed to mean here? Does it characterise Islam as a whole or the particular variety of it brought to Ingushetia? In the first case it should be removed as this article is not about Islam and its characteristics and in the second case it needs a reference. Alæxis_¿question? 17:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

If you haven't noticed Kunta Khadzhi Kishiev didn't use the sword to bring it to Ingushes like General Ermolov tried. thats why it is peaceful. Can you actually give me one example where one person used military might against whole nation to convert them? Use logic.Ingushetia (talk) 17:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see now. Then I'd say it's written not clearly enough. I propose to rewrite this sentence like this: Ingushes peacefully reverted to Islam in the beginning of the 19th century with the help of a Chechen Islamic scholar Shaikh Kunta-Khadzhi (I've removed last words because the word 'Islam' already appears two times in the sentence and it's sort of obvious what kind of teaching an Islamic scholar could bring). Alæxis_¿question? 18:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Ingushetia (talk) 18:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

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Btw I've re-created the article about www.ingushetiya.ru that got deleted and added facts proving its notability. Alæxis_¿question? 19:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much.Ingushetia (talk) 06:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent events

The article needs to be seriously updated. The situation in the republic is precarious and the violence of 2007 has continued into 2008. Today, the Russian police fired into the opposition protesters in Nazran.[4] --Kober^Talk 12:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I am working on it. Thanks Ingushetia (talk) 08:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

population of Ingush is not 600,000

Its is somewhere near 300,000. Please see last census the Ingush population of Ingushetia contributes only 77%.

baron Rosen

1. The link you have provided doesn't have any reference whatsoever to Rosen's reason for extermination of highlanders in Ingushetia. "1832 г. август - Генерал Розен уничтожил 80 аулов Большой Чечни, принудил их выдать аманатов. 10-тысячный отряд Розена уничтожил аулы по берегам рек Мартан, Гойты, Аргун, Басс." 2. The author claims that 6 Ingush lowland clans signed the agreement. How about the rest of 300 clans who didn't sign the agreement?

The “historical map” is a clear forgery

The “historical map” is a clear forgery. In 1921 a second e in a word was b crossed at the top in the Russian language prior to 1930’s. Also no references provided.

Natural Resources?

Come on, now. Who listed "Death Squads" under the heading of Natural Resources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Judyjetson (talk • contribs) 17:05, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
-- Attack of the trolls ... again Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia

The Ingush

Section edited (it appears somebody just cut and pasted it into the climate section from Ingush section of wiki), and the religion part was cut because it was already present in Religion section.

proto-Dagestanian people???

Dagestan contains over 40 nationalities/languages. Some of them are NOT related to each other. The Dagestani are NOT ancestors to the Ingush, Chechen, Bats, Kistin languages; the four languages belong to the NAKH language family. Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia

Follow the link. That should answer your objection. The Nakh languages are a branch of the Dagestanian language family, otherwise known as NEC. The Science ref discusses agricultural connections with NEC, not specifically with Ingush. (The Chechen and Ingush are siblings linguistically but not that close genetically; that article is using linguistic evidence, so maybe that should be made clearer.)

Secondly, there is no evidence for any "Sino-Caucasian culture", and if there were, it would be a hell of a lot older than what this article was claiming. kwami (talk) 04:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Listen, just because the articles DO NOT agree with your personal opinion doesn't mean they are wrong. Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia

Here is the article from

Science 19 May 2000: Vol. 288. no. 5469, p. 1158 DOI: 10.1126/science.288.5469.1158: "LINGUISTICS: Peering Into the Past, With Words Bernice Wuethrich Prehistorians typically rely on stones, bones, and DNA to piece together the past, but linguists argue that words preserve history too. Two new studies, both based on endangered languages, offer new insights into the identity of mysterious ancient peoples, from the first farmers to early inhabitants of the British Isles. Archaeologists have long known that some 10,000 years ago, ancient people in Mesopotamia discovered farming, raising sheep, cattle, wheat, and barley. And researchers knew that by 8000 years ago agriculture had spread north to the Caucasus Mountains. But they had little inkling of whether traces of this first farming culture lived on in any particular culture today. People have migrated extensively through the region over the millennia, and there's no continuous archaeological record of any single culture. Linguistically, most languages in the region and in the Fertile Crescent itself are relatively recent arrivals from elsewhere. Now, however, linguist Johanna Nichols of the University of California, Berkeley, has used language to connect modern people of the Caucasus region to the ancient farmers of the Fertile Crescent. She analyzed the Nakh-Daghestanian linguistic family, which today includes Chechen, Ingush, and Batsbi on the Nakh side and some 24 languages on the Daghestanian side; all are spoken in parts of Russia (such as Chechnya), Georgia, and Azerbaijan. Languages heard near the Caspian Sea today trace their ancestry back to the first farmers of the Fertile Crescent. Nichols had previously established the family tree of Nakh-Daghestanian by analyzing similarities in the related languages much the way biologists create a phylogeny of species. She found that three languages converge at the very base of the tree. Today, speakers of all three live side by side in the southeastern foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, suggesting that this was the homeland of the ancestral language--on the very fringes of the Fertile Crescent. To get a rough estimate of when the language arose, Nichols used a linguistic method that assumes a semiregular rate of vocabulary loss per 1000 years, and she dated the ancestral language to about 8000 years ago. Nichols also found that the ancestral language contains a host of words for farming. The Chechen words muq (barley), stu (bull), and tkha (wool), for example, all have closely related forms in the earliest branches of Daghestanian, as do words for pear, apple, dairy product, and oxen yoke--all elements of the farming package developed in the Fertile Crescent. Thus location, time, and vocabulary all suggest that the farmers of the region were proto-Nakh-Daghestanians. "The Nakh-Daghestanian languages are the closest thing we have to a direct continuation of the cultural and linguistic community that gave rise to Western civilization," Nichols says. Population geneticist Henry Harpending of the University of Utah, Salt Lake City, has just begun the job of unraveling the genetic ancestry of Daghestanian speakers and is impressed with Nichols's work. "For years I wished linguists would get in the game. Nichols sure is." Nichols is now reconstructing the ancestral language, hoping for more clues to the culture of these early farmers. But she has to work fast, for the three Nakh languages are vanishing. Although there are still about 900,000 Chechen speakers left, the other two tongues have fewer speakers, and all three are being eroded by war, economic chaos, and Russian educational practices, Nichols says." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.185.19.215 (talk) 11:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my point. NAKH languages are not related to Dagestani. Thats why they have NAKH-Dagestani group. Plus Dagestan has over 40 languages which are not related to each other. Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia

I'm glad we have an Ingush speaker to help with these articles. But you appear to have little understanding of linguistics. The quote from Science proves my point: "Nakh-Daghestanian linguistic family, which today includes Chechen, Ingush, and Batsbi on the Nakh side and some 24 languages on the Daghestanian side" means that these languages are related: they form a language family. See the article Northeast Caucasian languages, a synonym for Nakh-Daghestanian. (Linguists such as Bernard Comrie have in the last few years determined that the Nakh languages are not particularly divergent, and are just another branch of Daghestanian, not coordinate with it.) And there is no mention of "Sino-Caucasian culture".

You have two experienced editors who disagree with you. If you feel I am misusing the ref, please take it to another editor who knows linguistics and see if you can convince him, rather than edit warring. kwami (talk) 00:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Weak logic from an "experienced editor". I am not questioning that Ingush are related to some nations in Dagestan, I am questioning the theory of "Dagestani" languages in Vainakh lands (NAKH languages). Compare: Dage-stan, Turkmeni-stan, Turki-stan, Tatar-stan, Uzbeki-stan, Tadjiki-stan. Majority of the people in Dage-stan came from somewhere else. Why do they call the language group Nakh-Dagestani? Not just Dagestani or Dagestani-Nakh??????

Please see it for yourself. Dagestan: Avars from Avar Kaganate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Khazar0.png Kumyks Turkish-speaking: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumyks .... etc. look into their history. I know better than you who belong where in the Caucasus. Proto- means Pre-. So it is written Pre-Ingush people. That means ancestors of Ingush people. Kapish? Speaking about Sino-Caucasian you are right. It is just a "sick" imagination of some professors from Russia http://starling.rinet.ru/Texts/scc.pdf But you are right you have a Ph.D. in "experienced editor". Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia.

Assuming good faith, you either do not understand linguistics, or do not have the level of English required for understanding the Science article. There was no "proto-Ingush" migration from the Fertile Crescent. That's clear from the article. You have now also reached 3RR; if you continue this pointless edit war, you will be blocked for disruption. kwami (talk) 00:44, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

And if you agree that "Sino-Caucasian" is wrong, why do you insist on restoring it? Just to be perverse? kwami (talk) 00:50, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Per your request I erased the Sino-Caucasian culture. P.S. I recommend you to read http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/402074/Nakh-languages. Now tell me how did Avars who compose majority of Dagestani people ended up in Crimea per this map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Khazar0.png after all they are Dagestani language?

EB is not a reliable source, but there is nothing there that disagrees with my argument. When that article was written, it was thought that Nakh was a sister to the Dagestanian languages; now it is accepted as a branch within the Dagestanian languages. However, since the term "Dagestanian" could be confused with "languages of Daghestan" (which are not the same thing—Russian and Nogay are Dagestanian languages in the geographic sense, but not the linguistic sense), "Nakh-Dagestanian" is still used. Or "Northeast Caucasian" (NEC), though that is not always accepted by people who do not accept a linguistic link between Northeast and Northwest Caucasian (NWC).

As for the Avars, that's just a confusion of names like Albanian and Iberian, which refer to different peoples in the Caucasus than they do elsewhere. The Avar Khaganate was not formed by the Avars of Dagestan, but by the Eurasian Avars, who like the Huns may have been Turks, Iranians, Mongols, or a mix of all the above. —kwami (talk) 01:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure its not :-) Everything you say is true, everything everybody else says is not true. Don't worry you will laugh at yourself one day. I am laughing already Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia.

I thought you were asking a serious question, since you obviously don't know yourself. If you're not interested in knowing, then don't ask. I'm starting to understand why other editors have a negative opinion of you. If you're not interested in improving the articles, then you have no business on wikipedia. kwami (talk) 05:37, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Names

Here's what is written in the article:

“ Ingush are known by the following names: Ghalghai, Gelgai, Kist, Koost, Amazons, Gergar, Narts, Gegar, Dzoordzook, Glivi, Ongusht, Alans, Galash, Tsori, Jairakh, Khamhoi, Metshal, Fyappi, and Nyasareth. ”

Here's what is written in the source, on the other hand:

“ В древних исторических хрониках ингушские племена значатся под различными именами “гаргареи”, “дзурдзуки”, “глигвы”, “кусты” или “кисты”, “колканцы” и “галгаи”. ”

“ В X - XIII веках на территории Центрального Кавказа уже известно Аланское государственное образование (согласно утверждениям академика П.С. Палласа ингушские племена “кисты” являются прямыми потомками алан) ”

So, first, it's not clear where did half of the names in the article come from. Second, even this article (located at ingushetia.org and written by Ingush historian) doesn't say that Ingush are the descendants of Alans. It's just written that according to a certain historian it is so. As far as I know it's a rather non-orthodox theory so Alans shouldn't be in this list. Alæxis_¿question? 16:40, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

So, first of all, did you read the book written by a Jewish historian V.A.Shnirelman "To be the Alans" or you are going to attach him the label of "a certain historian"? Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia

If they are Alan, did they shift from an Iranian language to Nakh? kwami (talk) 00:47, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

You are right they were Iranians with Ahmadinejad as their president. I guess thats why Iranian-speaking Ossetians call Ingush mac-alon. Its just a coincidence that in Chechen (or Ingush) the word Al-an means al=noble and an=named. And of course the capital of Alania - Magas is locates near Busher nuclear station. If you don't like it go argue with academic Pallas or Shnirelman. I am not the one who wrote it. Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia

The Alans were Iranian. If you argue that the Ingush were Alans, then you're saying they're Iranian, not Caucasian. That would require a language shift, and to include that we need some references. Do you have any refs that the Ingush shifted from an Iranian to Nakh language? Lots of historians have said lots of crazy things; for an encyclopedia, we need to reflect the state of knowledge of the field. If I remember correctly, they did shift, but we still need refs to that effect. kwami (talk) 01:24, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Iranian? Proof please. Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia

Oh come off it. You're not stupid, so stop acting it. I'm sure you're capable of using basic reference material. Based on your recent comments, it appears that your questions are not sincere, but just designed to waste other editors' time. Until you start acting responsibly, I'm through taking my time to "explain" things to you, and will merely monitor you to make sure you don't cause more damage. kwami (talk) 05:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not stupid I KNOW. YOU ARE THOUGH.PLEASE PROOF THAT ALANS WERE IRANIAN. :-) Ingushetia (talk) Ingushetia.

recent edits

Reverting without any comments (not to say about using the talkpage) isn't very polite. The first issue is the fact tag, why has it been removed without adding any sources instead?

The second issue is Stalin's ethnicity. There are two aspects of this problem - his ethnicity per se and whether it has to do anything with his orders to deport Ingush and Chechen people. As far as I know it's far from certain that Stalin's father was an Ossetian - it's just a hypothesis. So Stalin is maybe half-Ossetian by blood, but he certainly didn't consider himself as such.

And unless there are reliable sources linking his ethnicity and his policies towards Ingush and Chechen people his ethnicity shouldn't be mentioned here at all.

ps. And of course Mandelshtam's poem can't be used as a reference. Alæxis_¿question? 06:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Alex do not remove the text especially when several references provided (including the interview of the President of Ossetia, and a communist from the Stalin's camp). If you disagree write near it with your comments and references. I personally do not care who Stalin was. All I know he was a mass murderer. P.S. Obey the rules of Wikipedia.Ingushetia 14:53, 3 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

Besides being referenced the information one adds to the article should be relevant. Let's not discuss here Stalin's ethnicity itself. How is it relevant to the history of Ingushetia? Do you think that he expelled Ingush out of special animosity, being an Ossetian? If yes then you have to find reliable sources proving this. I myself find it unlikely, given that Ingush were one of very many peoples who were forcibly transferred during his reign. Alæxis_¿question? 19:36, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Hey! You do not understand We are talking about Ingushetia here and Stalin played a major role in Ingush extermination. Since there were provided six references I am not going to delete it. We are following rules here. The article doesn't accuse Ossetians committing genocide. It talks about Stalin's role who just happened to be Ossetian, half-Ossetian, or whatever you want to call him.Ingushetia 20:55, 3 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

Yes, surely Stalin played a major role in Ingush extermination. No one argues with this. But that doesn't mean we should put all the info about him to this article. We don't write here that he was born in Gori, that he died in 1953 or that he became a General Secretary in 1922. Similarly, his ethnicity is irrelevant to this article imho. Alæxis_¿question? 21:52, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Considering difficult relations between the Ingush and the Ossetian peoples the information relates to the topic. At first I didn’t want to keep it there but after studying the references, and later doing some investigation myself, I decided to leave it intact. I found more sources and this is not the only webpage where they indicate the nationality of a mass murderer inside of his victims’ history.Ingushetia 22:38, 3 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

By the way the information about 1953 Stalin's death is mentioned in the section. I am surprised nobody put citation marks after that. Ingushetia 22:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

Yes, you're right about 1953 :) Anyway, let's look at your sources

1. This book is about young Stalin; besides it's not written there simply that Stalin was an Ossetian. This book could be used to reference his ethnicity but not the relevance of his ethnicity to the topic of this article.
2. - this is a poem! by definition it's not a reliable scholarly source. We can't characterise the whole Chechen people on the base of this poem, for example :)
3. This magazine article doesn't say anything about Stalin's ethnicity itself. It is about alleged attempt of Western press to make Stalin an Ossetian. (За минувший месяц из разных иностранных газет и журналов я узнал, что Иосиф Виссарионович был по отцу осетином из Южной Осетии)
4. Eduard Kokoyti isn't and has never been a historian. His position is notable itself and probably could be included in WP but a politician's statement is not a proof of a historical fact.
5. Let me quote this book (ch. 11.9): то из горских евреев вышел знаменитый на все времена Иосиф Джугашвили (Сталин)68 - слово "джуга", опять же, кстати, означает по-грузински "еврей" ( у вайнахов - джугти). So Baksan claims that Stalin was a Mountain Jew! Besides the book itself is rather notorious..
6. I couldn't find this book online, so could you please provide a quote from it regarding Stalin's ethnicity and its relevance to Ingush history? Alæxis_¿question? 09:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Please read my first reply "Alex do not remove the text especially when several references provided (including the interview of the President of Ossetia, and a communist from the Stalin's camp)." I didn't mention Ogonek, Mandelshtem, etc. I do not care about them! There is one reliable source i.e. the president of Ossetia. Lets use the same logic and question everything in the article. First of all there is no such thing as Ingush or Chechen because the names came from villages of Chechen-Aul, and Ongusht and it wasn't historians who named nations like that it was politicians. The true word for Ingush or Chechen is Vainakh. Ingush and Chechens have the same history: the First Russo-Caucasian war went through both Chechnya and Ingushetia, Mass deportation 1865 went through both Chechnya and Ingushetia, 1917, 1930s extermination of rich people and "intelligentsia" of Chechen and Ingush. 1944 mass deportation of Chechens and Ingush, 1990-2000s "the conflict" and "the war for independence" which is still killing Chechens and Ingush. So you see there is no Chechens or Ingush they speak the same language, they have the same history, and they have the same religion(culture). Lets get rid of Chechnya and Ingushetia topics on the Wiki and unify them under Vainakh topic? P.S. Can you name me a single Ossetian who was prosecuted by Stalin's regime? I can name you a bunch of Georgians and Jews (including Mendelshtem) who were killed by Stalin. Ingushetia 13:42, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia.

Oh Alex, Alex of course we can characterize the whole Chechen nation like that. Moreover every single Chechen likes M.Y.Lermontov for these poems (btw I am a Chechen). This is a combat situation and it is coming from a mouse of an enemy – Cossack: “Злой чечен ползет на берег, Точит свой кинжал;“ Angry Chechen sharpens his dagger. I can even quote you more: “Лишь один во всей станице Казачина гребенской. Оседлал он вороного, И в горах, в ночном бою, На кинжал чеченца злого Сложит голову свою".” True again Russians lost 77,000 soldiers in Chechnya. Or “В Чечню, в Аварию, к горам; Как там дрались, как мы их били, Как доставалося и нам;” or “«Валерик, А перевесть на ваш язык,

Так будет речка смерти: верно, Дано старинными людьми». «А сколько их дралось примерно Сегодня?» — «Тысяч до семи». «А много горцы потеряли?» «Как знать? — зачем вы не считали!» «Да! будет, - кто-то тут сказал, - Им в память этот день кровавый!» Чеченец посмотрел лукаво И головою покачал.” Was Lermontov wrong? No! He is damn right. So, why do you question Mandelshtam? Because he had balls to call something which others were afraid to call??? “Baksan claims that Stalin was a Mountain Jew! Besides the book itself is rather notorious.” I’ve done some search on the web about Deni Baksan. It appears he is a well known scientist and writer from Chechnya. “Deni Baksan - an outstanding scientist and writer, the author of many well-known works about the exciting problems of our time.” I’ve read some sections of the book. One fact I didn’t know that Ossetians were celebrating and dancing when Chechens and Ingush were deported in 1944. I will add it to the Ingushetia section. Thanks for you help. Well now considering the books written by Deni Baksan and by Beniamin Kaplan "Ossetians - Iranian Jews" [5] which was published in Vladikavkaz, North Ossetia; I understand why Russians jumped into Georgia and recognized independence of Ossetia. The thing I don’t understand: why did Stalin kill Jews like Mandelshtem??? I have only theories. Do you know anything Alex?Ingushetia 15:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

It's kind of funny that you use a book that was posted on a Russian nationalist site. Here's a quote from the review of the book by Deni Baksan by two scholars from Dagestan (it happens to be posted on a similar site):

“ В статье проанализированы основные положения современного чеченского национального мифа (автор — Дени Баксан), который фактически является профашистской мифологизированной идеологией. Эта идеология апеллирует к «арийской» теории расовой борьбы Гитлера и ультрарадикальному исламизму, а также содержит национально-религиозную нетерпимость, в частности, антиеврейскую и антииудейскую позиции в качестве одного из ключевых составных элементов. ”

“ In this article main theses of modern Chechen national mythology (author - Deni Baksan) are analysed. This national myth is really a pro-fascist ideology that makes references to Hitler's theory of racial struggle and radical Islam(ism). Intolerance (for example towards Jews) is one of the key elements of this ideology ”

(my translation)

Even though I may not agree completely with Boykovs I'd still consider this book notorious and not suitable as WP source. Alæxis_¿question? 14:33, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't read about Baksan's book until you showed me the website; btw there is no Chechen with the last name Baksan. Also its funny that you call him notorious others call him brilliant and the rest call him fascist. Chechens would call Putin a fascist though some Russians would probably call him brilliant. Speaking about Russian nationalistic website I think it's a Nazi website. This is not the only website with the book and quotes, unfortunately this is the only website which had pages from the book scanned. Since I knew you do not have access to the book I gave you the link I found. By the way I saw the book on www.ingushetia.org "opposition's" website. Alex, you are ignoring my question about Stalin and Mandelshtem. There must be logic behind that.Ingushetia 01:14, 8 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

I don't quite understand your question. afaik no nationality was completely spared of repressions during Stalin's reign. Imho ethnicity was not too important for him. Alæxis_¿question? 19:21, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

section

You wouldn't happen to know of the ref that the Ingush are genetically Iranian (presumably Ossete), would you? Evidently the Chechen and Ingush are very different genetically despite being nearly identical linguistically, an apparent case of language shift. I've been unable to track it down. kwami (talk) 08:00, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

How can they be very different genetically if every second Ingush family has Chechen relatives. Besides, Chechens and Ingush have substantial groups like Orstkoi (half-Chechen, half-Ingush), Melkhi (half-Chechen, half-Ingush) etc. There were several clans which migrated to "Ingushetia" from "Chechnya" about 900-1200 years ago they call themselves Ingush now. The word Ingush comes from village Ongusht, and the word Chechen comes from village Chechen-Aul where Russian armies were defeated. The terms Chechen and Ingush were coined by General Ermolov to defeat the Vainakh tribes he had to invent to fictitious nations - divide and conquer. For your information Ingush never had serfs, kings etc. As John LeCarre said "they cannot be organized in groups more than one" because in Ingush eyes every Ingush is equal. So you cannot force anyone do anything (name me one nation in the world which has the same kind of governance). It's not blood which unites nations it's their history, language, and culture(religion). Ingush and Chechens came to the Caucasus from the Middle East 10,000 years ago so they will probably share genes with Jews and Arabs in general, and yes they will probably share some genes with Ossetians because as far as I know some of Ossetian, Georgian, Kabardin women got married to Ingush men because they border each other and it is normal Ingushetia 15:50, 3 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

Your inability to explain something is not evidence that it isn't true. Genetic studies of the Chechen and Ingush produce very different results. Of course there's been a lot of intermingling, but that's true for all nations, and duly considered when interpreting the genetic results. I haven't added the genetics because my refs are in handwritten notes buried god-knows-where. kwami (talk) 01:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Genetic studies where? I know only one resource (https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/index.html) and they do not have any information on the Ingush. They have very little information on the Chechens.Ingushetia 02:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

RfC: Stalin's ethnicity and its relevance here

Is Stalin's ethnicity relevant to the history of Ingushetia and if yes, how should it be mentioned (see Talk:Ingushetia#recent_edits for the sources and the discussion).

Thanks so much for tagging the section. I hope more people would read about Chechens and Ingush and the genocide of 1944.Ingushetia 01:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)Ingushetia

Stalin's alleged Ossetian ethnicity is irrelevant here. For one thing, the idea he had Ossetian roots is mere speculation. More importantly, the implication that he was anti-Ingush because he was an Ossetian and this is the reason why he deported them en masse is a fringe theory, if not complete original research (Stalin also deported the Crimean Tatars and Kalmyks, for example - neither of those peoples have strong historical connections to the Ossetians). Wikipedia policy specifically warns about making such insinuations by stringing two unrelated facts or theories together (it's called synthesis): "Synthesis occurs when an editor puts together multiple sources to reach a novel conclusion that is not in any of the sources. Even if published by reliable sources, material must not be connected together in such a way that it constitutes original research. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the article subject, then the editor is engaged in original research." At least one editor seems to be using this article as a soapbox to refight the Ossetian–Ingush conflict of the early 1990s and there is a strongly anti-Ossetian flavour to the page which is inconsistent with our requirements for neutrality. --Folantin (talk) 10:32, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

As for your claims about Magas, they violate neutrality too. There is no consensus about the location of the historical Maghas, capital of Alania. The Russian link you provide (see also WP:VUE) is about the modern city of Magas: "Магас в переводе с ингушского — Город Солнца. Выбор названия был сделан с учетом того, что древняя столица средневековой Алании — союза горских народов и племен — также величалась Магасом." In other words, the name of the new city is taken from Ingush but it makes no claim that this is the correct etymology of the historical Maghas. The Medieval Alans are generally believed to have spoken an Iranian language (like Ossetic) not a Nakh language (like Ingush). There is no source given for the claim that the word "Alan" is "translated from Ingush 'Named Noble'" nor is it very likely this is a mainstream theory (see the article on the Alans). This is simply yet more feuding between the modern Ingush and Ossetians back-projected onto history. --Folantin (talk) 16:32, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Block warning

I'm tempted to block you without a warning. You know better. Take it to Talk. kwami (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)