Talk:Neoconservatism

Some Stray comments from 2007 are in the 2006 archive

A few comments from 2007 were plopped in the midst of much earlier threads, and not indented as part of the thread. Most occurred on 10 November 2007 by anonymous editors. I put them in the 2006 archive, with indents. But on this page are still 2006 threads which had later comments coherently added. -Colfer2 (talk) 22:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Defining the Subjective

I think I figured out the problem with this article. It's trying to define "Neoconservative" as a small well-defined political movement. But the term is used much more expansively than that. When leftist, liberal, progressive (and sometimes classically conservative) pundits say "Neocon" they usually aren't talking about some small group of Jewish, former liberals. The term "Neoconservative" is used to differentiate between modern conservatives and classic conservatives in order to emphasize the differences. The people these critics describe do not usually consider themselves to be neoconservative, but identify as simply conservative in order to claim the heritage of classic conservative ideology. Naturally, the defining characteristics of Conservatism have changed over time (like Liberalism). But since the criticism of modern Conservatives comes mostly from the Left, the more liberal or progressive changes in Conservatism are less recognized when differentiating the "Neocons" from the "Cons". Therefore Neoconservatives are usually characterized as being more radically right than previous conservative movements. The liberal/progressive/leftists pundits describe classic Conservatives as being conservationist, pro-military but cautious of use of force, and for limited government. Whereas Neoconservatives are described as putting profit above the environment, being aggressively militaristic, and wanting to radically dismantle government infrastructure and protections. This article exclusively describes the term in a way that is now archaic to current political discourse. The more contemporary use of the term is subjective and contested. So it isn't surprising that there's so much disagreement here.Garbled Reverie (talk) 19:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

"The liberal/progressive/leftists pundits describe classic Conservatives as being conservationist, pro-military but cautious of use of force"

Well that's not a very good description. One can look up cases of people who would mostly be classed as "classic Conservatives" in the 1950s and 1960s but who argued that Harry Truman was stabbing General Douglas MacArthur in the back by refusing to support MacArthur's demands for atomic bombing of China over Korea. Clearly such critics of Truman were not showing caution in the advocacy of force. But neither were they in any way, shape or form "neo-conservative." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.38 (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Euston Manifesto

A link to the Euston Manifesto was readded to this page. Nowhere in the link is neoconservatism mentioned, the opening line of the page clearly refers to them as left-wing. Without greater justification, I will remove the link again. -William Quill (talk) 12:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Euston manifesto signatories support Iraq War. Euston manifesto was promoted by the Henry Jackson society. And see Oliver Kamm's book "A left-wing case for a neoconservative foriegn policy".99.244.181.114 (talk) 05:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't make them neo-conservative, I suppose the best definition of them would be Liberal Hawks, which I'll add as a link instead. William Quill (talk) 10:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

What's the difference between liberal hawks and neoconservative anyway?99.244.181.114 (talk) 09:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

To return to this. I think it's a POV to include the Euston Manifesto. I've asked at the Euston Manifesto talk page, and for those interested, it might be worth looking at their website, [1]. They are very much left-leaning or liberal, in the New Labour tradition. New Labour was a departure from what Labour was once, but they didn't become neocon. There might be a left-wing case for a neocon foreign policy, but that simply means that Kamm thinks that left-wingers should support their foreign policy, not that they now are neocons. Take the first paragraph of this article, mentioning "he rejection of the social liberalism, moral relativism, and New Left counterculture of the 1960s". This description does not fit the Euston Manifesto. The bigger point, I think, is that neoconservatism is very much an American movement, associated with the GOP, and so does not fit a British group of this sort. William Quill (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Explain this paragraph?

"Some observers believe furthermore that there is a fundamental continuity of ideas from Trotsky to the present neoconservative movement. They point in particular to the French Turn, by which Trotsky advocated the belief in social democracy as a Leninist vanguard. This was indeed essentially the position for which Shachtman broke with Trotsky, and that position has remained throughout the essence of neoconservatism. Indeed, this view has only been embraced by neocon thinkers such as Paul Berman, Christopher Hitchens, and Stephen Schwartz."

Let's make a note of the fact that Shachtman's split had nothing to do with the French Turn, which likewise had nothing to do with viewing social democrats as a Leninist vanguard. Shachtman split from Trotsky because Trotsky insisted on manintaining that the Soviet Union was what he called "a bureaucratically degenerated workers state." Shachtman chose to characterize the USSR was "bureaucratic collectivism" but rejected the Marxist view which asserts that a social class such as either the bourgeoisie or the proletariat must be the owning class. Trotsky used this Marxist perspective to argue that the Soviet Union, which was clearly not owned by a capitalist class, was a workers state, albeit a bureaucratically degenerated one. Shachtman rejected this perspective. The argument was not over the French Turn at all. It was an argument about how to view the Soviet Union as a social phenomenon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.137.241 (talk) 15:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Does this mean that Paul Berman, Christopher Hitchens, and Stephen Schwartz point to the "French Turn?" The meaning of this paragraphis unclear. What position did Shachtman take? Really muddy.--Cberlet 21:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know exactly what that means. Although there is a wikipedia article for French Turn and another for Max Shachtman. The Shachtman article mentions his influence on neoconservatives fairly concisely (although it isn't properly referenced, which is problematic.) I agree with you that the above paragraph is just muddy. I would need to do some research though to understand the area much better than I do before attempting to rewrite it, unfortunately, I don't have the time right now. --Ben Houston 19:52, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Let's wait a bit and see if anyone else can make sense of it. I just do not understand what it is trying to say. Thanks for the edits.--Cberlet 04:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Man, I totally miss the point of that paragraph too. Jacrosse, I'm sure you have something in mind, but could you explain on this page what you are trying to say with the paragraph quoted above? (And if possible, please do the explaining without jargon—e.g., "French Turn," etc.) Also, there are some terms without clear antecedents in the paragraph: "the position" (which position?) and "this view" (which view?). Thanks for your help on this. Respectfully, Hydriotaphia 03:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The paragraph in question is clearly false since we know that the Trotskyists were prosecuted by the Roosevelt administration for opposing World War II as an imperialist war. You could make a partial comparison between the way Earl Browder and other Stalinists supported World War II and the way that various former Leftists of many types shifted to the Right and became neo-conservatives in the 1970s. But certainly there is no rational comparison to draw between the Trotskyists insistently maintaining that a bourgeois war against fascism is an imperialist war and the practice of neo-conservatives justifying wars to spread democracy. The latter has more in common with Rudyard Kipling's notion of the white man's burden that it does with anything ever suggested by Trotsky as to how to react to a war by the imperialist capitalist state. People who throw such claims obviously know nothing about what Leon Trotsky did and did not teach to his followers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.137.241 (talk) 15:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Wilsonian Liberals of the past

So basically Neo Cons are a bunch of Alden Pyles in the Quiet American. They are no different than the Wilsonian liberals of the 20s and 30s.

This statement is definitely far off the beam. Under Woodrow Wilson the IRS was created with a clear prerogative for taxing the wealthiest interests. Under Ronald Reagan and his successors taxation on the rich has been undone very steadily. What is the comparison.

It should also be kept in mind that paleo-cons during the Cold War had a long record of advocating global interventionism to a degree that would make the Iraq invasion appear sane by contrast. Most paleo-cons used to curse at Truman for firing MacArthur when he tried to start World War III. No honest person can say that neo-cons invented the idea of global intervention, or that they ever had to bother looking at Wilson for examples of such interventionist sentiments. There have been differences of emphasis in the way that many neo-cons versus paleo-cons have advocated sweeping military interventions, and neo-cons in particular are attached to Israel, but there is no reason for looking outisde of the conservative box when seeking precedents for the advocacy of strong-arm interventionism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.247.134.95 (talk) 20:02, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

... used as a pejorative by anti-Semites [quote needed]

Sorry, still haven't devoted the necessary time to the editing rules. BUT I just noticed that under the header below a quote is needed. This I can provide. Maybe somebody can help me add the link, so interested people find their way there. The original link does not work anymore. But the document was forwarded to the H-Antisemitism discussion group. Unfortunately I do not know the rules for adding notes. Maybe I manage to figure it out. If not, I would be pleased about help.

Context: Shortcomings and criticism of the term "Neoconservative"

.... or is used as a pejorative by anti-Semites. [citation needed]"

I add the citation. I take it from here:

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=h-antisemitism&month=0304&week=&msg=4zdiWX1EuCVzeRLDdQySKA&user=&pw=

Maybe someone can clean up after me??? I hate to leave a nitwit mess. Thanks ...???

LeaNder 20:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I love when some people attack conservatives by using the term "neoconservative" with relation to Iraq or other foreign policy issues. This opens them wide to attack by me in calling them "anti-Semites". It's my favorite opening attack and puts them instantly on the defensive. However, the problem with using GLORIA as a reference is that they are a very biased source and would wreck any attack by me on anti-neoconservatives. It's like using a Neo-Nazi source to back up arguments that Hitler was a nice guy. I would rather see some mainstream source to defend this argument, otherwise the comment should be removed until such a source can be found.

The statement that, "Some claim that as antisemites did with big business moguls in the nineteenth century and Communist leaders in the twentieth, the trick here is to take all those involved in some aspect of public life and single out those who are Jewish. The implication made is that this is a Jewish-led movement conducted not in the interests of all the, in this case, American people, but to the benefit of Jews, and in this case Israel." is not supported by your sole reference to GLORIA.

I would like to get some feedback on this topic before I make an edit of that section. Thank you. Jtpaladin 17:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Weasel Words

"There is a widespread impression", "Some of those identified" lends to Weasel Words. Especially without a Citation! Can these be re-worded, or citaiton provided (which would lead to re-wording anyways I susppose). Hackajar 09:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. The vast acreage of uncited material makes this an opinion piece, not a factual article. --Dsutton24 19:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

it looks like the neo-cons are doing all they can to make sure that this article becomes as meaningless as possible

I talk to ne-cons all the time. One thing most neo-cons will say is 'what is a neo-con". They hate the term, and try to pretend it does not exist. It is interesting to see the difficulty it is taking to write this article. It does not surprise me. I would imagine that neo-cons would be organizing to make sure that this article is as unclear and difficult to read as possible. Cheers! Webulite 01:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• So what are you proposing? Rtrev 02:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

This is interesting... It seem from the few references I've seen that the word neo-con is used primarily by liberals with a negative connotation, if not simply being used as some remote synonym to neo-nazism. I think the connotation and usage of this word deserves attention. (QUINTIX 14:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC))

and then anyone who criticises neo-cons is an anti-semite.... wake up people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.175.1.253 (talk) 23:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

American Jews vs. Jewish Neocons

I added the following statement to the section on Neoconservatism, American Jews, and "Dual Loyalty"

"However, political commentators like those in the AdBusters article stress that their criticism is not aimed towards the political views of American Jewry as a whole, but rather that the commentary is specifically about neoconservative Jews and their apparent success in steering American Mideast policy in a pro-Israeli direction (at times to the detriment of American interests)."

This is to emphasize the distinction between criticism of Neoconservative Jews, versus criticism of all Jews. Without this distinction, this section would have you believe that critics of Neoconservative Jews are automatically anti-Jewish (and lumped with "white nationalists" like David Duke).WashCali 01:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

If it's relevant to an argument against neoconservatism that many neocons are Jewish, the argument is anti-semitic. The Adbusters article is a particularly egregious example of leftist anti-semitism. Argyriou (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Your first statement does not make sense to me - please elaborate (my initial reaction is that it smacks of many an irrational smear campaign, although I sincerely hope that I am wrong). Your second statement is your personal opinion and is not relevant to the discussion.WashCali 02:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

How is it an irrational smear campaign to allege anti-semitism on the basis of a seemingly irrelevant inclusion of the demographics of an ideological movement? Could you tell me off-hand how many Irish-Americans are neo-cons, how many Mexican-Americans, how many Samoan-Americans? Your implication that a legitimate question is a smear campaign is itself a highly hostile charge. I shudder to think what the imputation of such a charge is.

UN involved in leaving Hussein in power?

From the section titled "Neoconservativism under George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton" This paragraph appears - "Particularly galvanizing to the movement was the decision of George H. W. Bush and then-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Colin Powell to leave Saddam Hussein in power after the first Gulf War in 1991. Some neoconservatives viewed this policy, and the decision not to support indigenous dissident groups such as the Kurds and Shiites in their 1991-1992 resistance to Hussein, as a betrayal of democratic principles."

Wasn't that in fact the result of an agreement with the U.N.? Sorry I haven't got the data available, but I seem to remember that as being the U.N.'s wishes rather than the President's.

No. The US called all the shots in the Gulf War, and Bush Snr, Powell and General Schwarzkopf (the head of the Allied forces in the war) have all given extensive interviews since 1991 about why it would have been wrong to try and occupy the rest of Iraq. Their position, that the risk of a civil war and Vietnam-style quagmire was too great, seems to have been completely justified by events in Iraq since 2003.

Because America chose to fight the war through a UN mandate in order to build a strong international coalition for their actions, it was technically the UN that Iraq surrendered to, but in practice it was the Americans who decided to go to war in the first place and it was the Americans who decided what should happen to Saddam.

The only involvement of the UN was to approve the action proposed and carried out by the US and its allies. The Gulf War, unlike the Iraq War, was fought with broad international approval which was expressed through a UN resolution. The range of countries sending troops was also much broader in the Gulf War, for example France sent forces as part of the coalition (there's a famous bit of footage from the war where a damaged French fighter jet lands on its carrier). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.47.250 (talk) 11:14, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

Reagan is not a Neoconservative

This article discusses how neoconservativism was a big part of Reagan's Presidency. That is dead wrong. The neocons of the Ford era undermined Reagan's campaign. Neoconservatism is a philosophy of big government and interventionalist foreign policy. Neither of these characterize Reagan's presidency. Total spending increased in response to the Cold War. If Reagan had invaded the Soviet Union you might be able to pin him as a neoconservative, but he didn't. Iran-Contra was led by the neocons within his administration, but he took no part in it. Lasker 19:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

It's been over 24 hours with this glaring error. If there is no discussion on this point in another 24 I will make some changes.

Reagan was not a neoconservative. Some members of his administration were, but the same is true of Clinton and others. I support this edit, subject to substantive argument here. Arker 02:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

The big stick

The following was removed from the article some time in the last month; I think it was essentially accurate, but because it was uncited, I won't restore it at the present time. Someone might do well to back this with citations and restore it:

Neoconservative writers have frequently expressed admiration for the "big stick" interventionist foreign policy of Theodore Roosevelt. In foreign policy, critics argue that neoconservatives tend to view the world in 1939 terms , comparing the threat from adversaries as diverse as the Soviet Union, Osama bin Laden (and, more broadly, Islamic extremism, dubbed Islamofascism by many neoconservatives), and China to the threat then-posed by Nazi Germany and Japan, while American leaders "stand in" for Winston Churchill. In this analogy, leftists and others who oppose them are cast either as Neville Chamberlain-style appeasers or as an Anti-American fifth column.

Also, the following seems on the mark, but was also deleted (apologies if this was well accounted for in an edit summary, there have been about 100 edits since I last looked at this article).

According to Peter Steinfels, a historian of the movement, the neoconservatives' "emphasis on foreign affairs emerged after the New Left and the counterculture had dissolved as convincing foils for neoconservatism . . . The essential source of their anxiety is not military or geopolitical or to be found overseas at all; it is domestic and cultural and ideological."

This appears to have been appropriately cited (Steinfels, 69); someone may want to restore. - Jmabel | Talk 06:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected because of the reverting. Please discuss here and let me know when you've reached an agreement. 142.151.175.39, as you're adding contentious material, please use your regular account. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 05:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have much of an interest in this particular article or topic, but I do notice that the same type of censorship, bullying, and irrational mass-deletion of valid information that is happening with this article in regards to the "Neoconservatism, American Jews, and 'Dual Loyalty' " section is also happening over at the Israel lobby in the United States article, along with the List of Jewish American businesspeople list (among MANY others). I'd simply like to let people know that this is not an isolated phenomenon in any way and that it has been occuring for a very long while. Sadly, the only solution seems to be 'monitor' the edits of these people closely in the hopes of preserving some semblance of NPOV in the articles that they edit/mangle. That being said, not everyone has the time and energy to constantly monitor and subsequently expose all of these biased and POV edits/deletions; thus, much valuable information has been lost and will continue to be lost due to the fascistic editing habits of these particular editors. --Wassermann 14:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's unprotect this page, I want to do some editing... Scifiintel 18:55, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Lead section uninformative

When it was founded and who it's associated with is unimportant. How is it different from other forms of conservatism? This information should be in the lead. –M^T 00:04, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

New comment

There are two articles now, so there must be two talk files. See Talk:Neoconservatism (United States) for some issues that really belong here.

Mild update. It would be quite useful to review http://disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=neo-conservative which contains many international linkages not mentioned here, which should be.

There are also US-Israel, US-Canada, US-UK, US-Australia commonalities, each of which needs its own mentions, along with the Israel-Canada-UK cross-linkages. For instance, Conrad Black, a Canadian who hates Canada and lives in London, owns the Jerusalem Post, which calls for assassination of Yasser Arafat. And Izzy Asper, a Canadian who supports Israel unconditionally, owns Global TV which was the only Canadian TV network to send an "embedded reporter" to the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Australians and US cooperate almost automatically in the War on Terrorism (just like the Vietnam War) and now seem to share an interventionist foreign policy, which Canada and the UK do not seem to share to the same degree (despite Anthony Blair, who is taking major heat for it that Bush and Howard aren't taking).

---

Its extremely good practice to disambig articles like this one where the words have tottaly different meanings in different areas.

{{subst: TheHypnotist}}

Making this the disambiguation page

Would it be reasonable to make this into a disambiguation page of some sort, due to the fact that there are other articles for neoconservatism in other countries, yet the main article describes the United States? TheHypnotist 03:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Since the concept is quite different in different countries it would be presumptuous to assume that the U.S. flavor is the primary meaning. However in a review of the term's usage on Wikipedia I see there is a strong tendency to use the U.S version. Upon checking the "what links here" page it looks like the overwhelming number of them intend the U.S. meaning. Someone would have to go through and relink hundreds of articles. Future editors would need to know to link to "Neoconservatism in the United States" when they write "neo-con". On the other hand, Neoconservatism (disambiguation) deserves its own page, perhaps with a short summary of the U.S. material. Let's see what other editors think. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation was a good idea, but in the current version it is not clear enough that the word "neoconservative" in the English language has a history that substantially predates its first use in its principal current sense(s). It's as if the word came out of Michael Harrington's mouth for the first time. I find it as early as 1921 in a previous version of the article...and it was probably used before this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rrtnrvrb (talk • contribs) 08:11, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Disagreement with business lobby and fiscal conservatives section

The entire section should be deleted:

"There has been considerable conflict between neoconservatives and business conservatives in some areas.[citation needed] Neoconservatives tend to see China as a looming threat to the United States and argue for harsh policies to contain that threat.[citation needed] Business conservatives see China as a business opportunity and see a tough policy against China as opposed to their desires for trade. Business conservatives also appear much less distrustful of international institutions.[citation needed] In fact, where China is concerned neoconservatives tend to find themselves more often in agreement with liberal Democrats than with business conservatives.[citation needed] Indeed, Americans for Democratic Action - widely regarded as an "authority" of sorts on liberalism by both the American left and right alike[citation needed] - credit Senators and members of the House of Representatives with casting a "liberal" vote if they oppose legislation that would treat China favourably in the realm of foreign trade and many other matters.[citation needed]"

This is an entirely incoherent and a completely unsupported section that has no basis in fact. In fact, it is neoconservatives who support doing business with communist China. True conservatives do not support doing business with China. Nothing in this section has any citation. It is not only POV but it is a POV which does not mesh with reality. I support deletion of the whole section. Jtpaladin 14:27, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. If there is something to what was written in that section (and I think there is, somewhat), it can be cited. Three months without citation is enough. Αργυριου (talk) 15:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I appreciate your time and support. Jtpaladin 15:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

true conservatives will trade with anyone, it is neo-cons with the aggressive interventionist foreign policy

Tagged with templates due to problems

This article has long-standing and continuing problems of contentious edit-warring and contains many undocumented or insufficiently-documented statements. Please see the previous discussions by other editors, users, and the editing history summaries. The problems are not simply mechanical, format-related, or cosmetic; they are more significant than that and are related to problems of adhering to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, WP:POV, WP:BLP, including guidelines and policies pertaining to Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia:Attribution, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources, as well as Wikipedia:Guidelines for controversial articles. I've tagged it with a couple of templates for those reasons. --NYScholar 00:17, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the tags. Much of the article is questionable in terms of reliability, POV, relevance and needs to be checked and rewritten with citations. The machine512 00:31, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Historical usage

The most recent version of this article, may 25 2007, says that Carl Schmitt and other Germans were referred to as neo-conservative in the 1930s, and cites a recent English-language book in support of the assertion. One wonders when and in what language they were described with this term ... in the English language in the 1930s? Then better to cite the original source rather than this later book. In some other language? Then the example has no point; the point is to trace the evolution of the phrase.

Deleted section

Neoconservatism, American Jews, and "Dual Loyalty"

- Some opponents of neoconservatives have sought to emphasize their interest in Israel and the relatively large proportion of Jewish neoconservatives, and have raised the question of "dual loyalty". A number of critics, such as Pat Buchanan, Juan Cole, and Kathleen and Bill Christison have accused them of putting Israeli interests above those of America. In turn these critics have been labeled as anti-Semites by prominent Jewish organizations.

- Former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke and some other white supremacists attack neoconservatism as advancing Jewish interests. They say a "Jewish supremacist" movement exists in the United States. Similarly, during the run-up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, the politically left-wing magazine AdBusters published a list of the "50 most influential neocons in the United States", noting that half of these were Jewish, - and insinuating that the preponderance of Jews in neoconservatism leads them to "not distinguish enough between American and Israeli interests". The article asks "For example, whose interests were they protecting in pushing for war in Iraq?", and ends with the statement "And half of the them are Jewish." - - Political commentators like those in the AdBusters article state that their criticism is not aimed towards the political views of American Jewry as a whole, but rather that the commentary is specifically about neoconservative Jews and their apparent success in steering American Mideast policy in a pro-Israeli direction (at times to the detriment of American interests). - - Neoconservatives say that they were much less interested in Israel before the June 1967 Six Day War. It was only after this conflict, which raised the specter of unopposed Soviet influence in the Middle East, that the neoconservatives became interested in Israel's security interests. They promote the view that Israel is the United States' strongest ally in the Middle East as the sole Western-style democracy in the region, aside from Turkey. - - Commenting on the alleged overtones of this view in more mainstream discourse, David Brooks, in his January 6, 2004 New York Times column wrote, "To hear these people describe it, PNAC is sort of a Yiddish Trilateral Commission, the nexus of the sprawling neocon tentacles". In a similar vein, Michael Lind, a self-described 'former neoconservative,' wrote in 2004, "It is true, and unfortunate, that some journalists tend to use 'neoconservative' to refer only to Jewish neoconservatives, a practice that forces them to invent categories like nationalist conservative or Western conservative for Rumsfeld and Cheney. But neoconservatism is an ideology, like paleoconservatism and libertarianism, and Rumsfeld and Dick and Lynne Cheney are full-fledged neocons, as distinct from paleocons or libertarians, even though they are not Jewish and were never liberals or leftists." - - Lind argues that, while "there were, and are, very few Northeastern WASP mandarins in the neoconservative movement", its origins are not specifically Jewish. "...[N]eoconservatism recruited from diverse 'farm teams' including Roman Catholics (William Bennett and Michael Novak) and populists, socialists and New Deal liberals in the South and Southwest (the pool from which Jeane Kirkpatrick, James Woolsey and I [that is, Lind himself] were drawn)".—Preceding unsigned comment added by Looper5920 (talk • contribs) 21:51, April 4, 2007 (UTC)

Israel-American citizens who hold US government positions:

Michael Mukasey Recently appointed as US Attorney General. Mukasey also was the judge in the litigation between developer Larry Silverstein and several insurance companies arising from the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001.

Michael Chertoff Former Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, at the Justice Department; now head of Homeland Security.

Richard Perle One of Bush's foreign policy advisors, he is the chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board. A very likely Israeli government agent, Perle was expelled from Senator Henry Jackson's office in the 1970's after the National Security Agency (NSA) caught him passing Highly-Classified (National Security) documents to the Israeli Embassy. He later worked for the Israeli weapons firm, Soltam. Perle came from one the above mentioned pro-Israel thinktanks, the AEI. Perle is one of the leading pro-Israeli fanatics leading this Iraq war mongering within the administration and now in the media.

Paul Wolfowitz Former Deputy Defense Secretary, and member of Perle's Defense Policy Board, in the Pentagon. Wolfowitz is a close associate of Perle, and reportedly has close ties to the Israeli military. His sister lives in Israel. Wolfowitz came from the above mentioned Jewish thinktank, JINSA. Wolfowitz was the number two leader within the administration behind this Iraq war mongering. He later was appointed head of the World Bank but resigned under pressure from World Bank members over a scandal involving his misuse of power.

Lawrence (Larry) Franklin The former Defense Intelligence Agency analyst with expertise in Iranian policy issues who worked in the office of Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith and reported directly to Feith's deputy, William Luti, was sentenced January 20, 2006, "to more than 12 years in prison for giving classified information to an Israeli diplomat" and members of the pro-Israel lobbying group American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). Franklin will "remain free while the government continues with the wider case" and his "prison time could be sharply reduced in return for his help in prosecuting" former AIPAC members Steven J. Rosen and Keith Weissman, [who] are scheduled to go on trial in April [2006]. Franklin admitted that he met periodically with Rosen and Weissman between 2002 and 2004 and discussed classified information, including information about potential attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq. Rosen and Weissman would later share what they learned with reporters and Israeli officials." (source: sourcewatch.com).

Douglas Feith Under Secretary of Defense and Policy Advisor at the Pentagon. He is a close associate of Perle and served as his Special Counsel. Like Perle and the others, Feith is a pro-Israel extremist, who has advocated anti-Arab policies in the past. He is closely associated with the extremist group, the Zionist Organization of America, which even attacks Jews that don't agree with its extremist views. Feith frequently speaks at ZOA conferences. Feith runs a small law firm, Feith and Zell, which only has one International office, in Israel. The majority of their legal work is representing Israeli interests. His firm's own website stated, prior to his appointment, that Feith "represents Israeli Armaments Manufacturer." Feith basically represents the Israeli War Machine. Feith also came from the Jewish thinktank JINSA. Feith, like Perle and Wolfowitz, are campaigning hard for this Israeli proxy war against Iraq.

Feith was investigated by the FBI under suspicion of leaking classified information to Israel, being that he was Larry Franklin's boss when Franklin leaked those documents to Rosen and Weissman of AIPAC. For that he was forced to leave the National Security Council. Feith was also investigated by the Senate Intelligence Committee for sexing up 'intelligence' that was used to justify invading Iraq.

Edward Luttwak Member of the National Security Study Group of the Department of Defence at the Pentagon. Luttwak is reportedly an Israeli citizen and has taught in Israel. He frequently writes for Israeli and pro-Israeli newspapers and journals. Luttwak is an Israeli extremist whose main theme in many of his articles is the necessity of the U.S. waging war against Iraq and Iran.

Henry Kissinger One of many Pentagon Advisors, Kissinger sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle. For detailed information about Kissinger's evil past, read Seymour Hersch's book (Price of Power: Kissinger in the Nixon White House). Kissinger likely had a part in the Watergate crimes, Southeast Asia mass murders (Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos), Installing Chilean mass murdering dictator Pinochet, Operation Condor's mass killings in South America, and more recently served as Serbia's Ex-Dictator Slobodan Milosevic's Advisor. He consistently advocated going to war against Iraq. Kissinger is the Ariel Sharon of the U.S. Unfortunately, President Bush nominated Kissinger as chairman of the September 11 investigating commission. It's like picking a bank robber to investigate a fraud scandal. He later declined this job under enormous protests.

Dov Zakheim Dov Zakheim is an ordained rabbi and reportedly holds Israeli citizenship. Zakheim attended Jew's College in London and became an ordained Orthodox Jewish Rabbi in 1973. He was adjunct professor at New York's Jewish Yeshiva University. Zakheim is close to the Israeli lobby.

Dov Zakheim is also a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and in 2000 a co-author of the Project for the New American Century's position paper, Rebuilding America's Defenses, advocating the necessity for a Pearl-Harbor-like incident to mobilize the country into war with its enemies, mostly Middle Eastern Muslim nations.

He was appointed by Bush as Pentagon Comptroller from May 4, 2001 to March 10, 2004. At that time he was unable to explain the disappearance of $1 trillion dollars. Actually, nearly three years earlier, Donald Rumsfeld announced on September 10, 2001 that an audit discovered $2.3 trillion was also missing from the Pentagon books. That story, as mentioned, was buried under 9-11's rubble. The two sums disappeared on Zakheim's watch. We can only guess where that cash went.

Despite these suspicions, on May 6, 2004, Zakheim took a lucrative position at Booz Allen Hamilton, one of the most prestigious strategy consulting firms in the world. One of its clients then was Blessed Relief, a charity said to be a front for Osama bin Laden. Booz, Allen & Hamilton then also worked closely with DARPA, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, which is the research arm of the Department of Defense.

Judicial Inc's bio of Dov tells us Zakheim is a dual Israeli/American citizen and has been tracking the halls of US government for 25 years, casting defense policy and influence on Presidents Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. Judicial Inc points out that most of Israel's armaments were gotten thanks to him. Squads of US F-16 and F-15 were classified military surplus and sold to Israel at a fraction of their value.

Kenneth Adelman One of many Pentagon Advisors, Adelman also sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle, and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor, who supported going to war against Iraq. Adelman frequently is a guest on Fox News, and often expresses extremist and often ridiculus anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views. Through his racism or ignorance, he actually called Arabs "anti-Semitic" on Fox News (11/28/2001), when he could have looked it up in the dictionary to find out that Arabs by definition are Semites. I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby Vice President Dick Cheney's ex-Chief of Staff. As chief pro-Israel Jewish advisor to Cheney, it helps explains why Cheney is so gun-ho to invade Iran. Libby is longtime associate of Wolfowitz. Libby was also a lawyer for convicted felon and Israeli spy Marc Rich, whom Clinton pardoned, in his last days as president. Libby was recently found guilty of lying to Federal investigators in the Valerie Plame affair, in which Plame, a covert CIA agent, was exposed for political revenge by the Bush administration following her husband's revelations about the lies leading to the Iraq War.

Robert Satloff U.S. National Security Council Advisor, Satloff was the executive director of the Israeli lobby's "think tank," Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Many of the Israeli lobby's "experts" come from this front group, like Martin Indyk.

Elliott Abrams National Security Council Advisor. He previously worked at Washington-based "Think Tank" Ethics and Public Policy Center. During the Reagan Adminstration, Abrams was the Assistant Secretary of State, handling, for the most part, Latin American affairs. He played an important role in the Iran-Contra Scandal, which involved illegally selling U.S. weapons to Iran to fight Iraq, and illegally funding the contra rebels fighting to overthrow Nicaragua's Sandinista government. He also actively deceived three congressional committees about his involvement and thereby faced felony charges based on his testimony. Abrams pled guilty in 1991 to two misdemeanors and was sentenced to a year's probation and 100 hours of community service. A year later, former President Bush (Senior) granted Abrams a full pardon. He was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Reagan Administration's State Department.

Marc Grossman Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs. He was Director General of the Foreign Service and Director of Human Resources at the Department of State. Grossman is one of many of the pro-Israel Jewish officials from the Clinton Administration that Bush has promoted to higher posts.

Richard Haass Director of Policy Planning at the State Department and Ambassador at large. He is also Director of National Security Programs and Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). He was one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the first Bush (Sr) Administration who sat on the National Security Council, and who consistently advocated going to war against Iraq. Haass is also a member of the Defense Department's National Security Study Group, at the Pentagon.

Robert Zoellick U.S. Trade Representative, a cabinet-level position. He is also one of the more hawkish pro-Israel Jews in the Bush (Jr) Administration who advocated invading Iraq and occupying a portion of the country in order to set up a Vichy-style puppet government. He consistently advocates going to war against Iran.

Ari Fleischer Ex- White House Spokesman for the Bush (Jr) Administration. Prominent in the Jewish community, some reports state that he holds Israeli citizenship. Fleischer is closely connected to the extremist Jewish group called the Chabad Lubavitch Hasidics, who follow the Qabala, and hold very extremist and insulting views of non-Jews. Fleischer was the co-president of Chabad's Capitol Jewish Forum. He received the Young Leadership Award from the American Friends of Lubavitch in October, 2001.

James Schlesinger One of many Pentagon Advisors, Schlesinger also sits on the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor, who supported going to war against Iraq. Schlesinger is also a commissioner of the Defense Department's National Security Study Group, at the Pentagon.

David Frum White House speechwriter behind the "Axis of Evil" label. He lumped together all the lies and accusations against Iraq for Bush to justify the war.

Joshua Bolten White House Deputy Chief of Staff, Bolten was previously a banker, former legislative aide, and prominent in the Jewish community.

John Bolton Former UN Representative and Under-Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security. Bolton is also a Senior Advisor to President Bush. Prior to this position, Bolton was Senior Vice President of the above mentioned pro-Israel thinktank, AEI. He recently (October 2002) accused Syria of having a nuclear program, so that they can attack Syria after Iraq. He must have forgotten that Israel has 400 nuclear warheads, some of which are thermonuclear weapons (according to a recent U.S. Air Force report).

David Wurmser Special Assistant to John Bolton (above), the under-secretary for arms control and international security. Wurmser also worked at the AEI with Perle and Bolton. His wife, Meyrav Wurmser, along with Colonel Yigal Carmon, formerly of Israeli military intelligence, co-founded the Middle East Media Research Institute (Memri),a Washington-based Israeli outfit which distributes articles translated from Arabic newspapers portraying Arabs in a bad light.

Eliot Cohen Member of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board under Perle and is another extremist pro-Israel advisor. Like Adelman, he often expresses extremist and often ridiculus anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views. More recently, he wrote an opinion article in the Wall Street Journal openly admitting his rascist hatred of Islam claiming that Islam should be the enemy, not terrorism.

Mel Sembler President of the Export-Import Bank of the United States. A Prominent Jewish Republican and Former National Finance Chairman of the Republican National Committee. The Export-Import Bank facilitates trade relationships between U.S. businesses and foreign countries, specifically those with financial problems.

Steve Goldsmith Senior Advisor to the President, and Bush's Jewish domestic policy advisor. He also served as liaison in the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives (White House OFBCI) within the Executive Office of the President. He was the former mayor of Indianapolis. He is also friends with Israeli Jerusalem Mayor Ehud Olmert and often visits Israel to coach mayors on privatization initiatives.

Adam Goldman White House's Special Liaison to the Jewish Community.

Joseph Gildenhorn Bush Campaign's Special Liaison to the Jewish Community. He was the DC finance chairman for the Bush campaign, as well as campaign coordinator, and former ambassador to Switzerland.

Christopher Gersten Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families at HHS. Gersten was the former Executive Director of the Republican Jewish Coalition, Husband of Labor Secretary.

Mark Weinberger Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs.

Samuel Bodman Deputy Secretary of Commerce. He was the Chairman and CEO of Cabot Corporation in Boston, Massachusetts.

Bonnie Cohen Under Secretary of State for Management.

Ruth Davis Director of Foreign Service Institute, who reports to the Office of Under Secretary for Management. This Office is responsible for training all Department of State staff (including ambassadors).

Daniel Kurtzer Ambassador to Israel.

Cliff Sobel Ambassador to the Netherlands.

Stuart Bernstein Ambassador to Denmark.

Nancy Brinker Ambassador to Hungary

Frank Lavin Ambassador to Singapore.

Ron Weiser Ambassador to Slovakia.

Mel Sembler Ambassador to Italy.

Martin Silverstein Ambassador to Uruguay.

Lincoln Bloomfield Assistant Secretary of State for Political Military Affairs.

Jay Lefkowitz Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council.

Ken Melman White House Political Director.

Brad Blakeman White House Director of Scheduling.

History Buff III (talk) 11:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Re-write

I'm sorry to say this, but this article has become an overlong article with accuracy and neutrality issues. I suggest that we start this article all over again, this time paying closer attention to what's inserted in the article. Who's with me? —Signed, your friendly neighborhood MessedRocker. 02:41, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I don;t think that "starting again" is the best solution. Perhaps this talk page is the place to highlight where the neutrality issues are and which sections could be trimmed. My nomination for trimming would be the "Three pillars" section: three big quotes from an online-available source that could easily be succintly paraphrased. BobFromBrockley 15:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it really worth our time going through such a gigantic article and picking out each individual error? (messedrocker • talk) 20:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Conservative Criticism of Neoconservatism

I don't know if it should be rewritten, but I just added a section on Conservative Criticism of Neoconservatives. Conservatives, especially paleoconservatives, have been the biggest critics of neocons, even greater than liberals. Below are some seminal conservative articles criticizing the neocons.

Articles I added:

• Paul Gottfried: What’s In A Name? The Curious Case Of “Neoconservative”
• Conservatives, Neoconservatives, Paleoconservatives: What Next? by Paul Gottfried.
• Claes G. Ryn, "The Ideology of American Empire". Orbis 47 (2003), 383-397. A longer and more scholarly traditional conservative critique.
• Zmirak, J.P., "America the Abstraction," A conservative critique of neoconservatism.
• Why do NeoCons hate France? Why real conservatives should be pro-France.
• Nation or Notion? by Patrick J. Buchanan
• Strauss & the Straussians by Paul Gottfried.
• Strauss & History by Claes G Ryn.

--HowardJ87 13:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please rewrite!

I am all for a re-write and not because I disagree with the article, but because I don't understand it. I searched this term on this site with hopes of coming to an understanding of the term "neocon" and I'm now more confused than ever. The opening paragraph is terrible! It should start with simple and easy to understand definitions and lead a totally uneducated reader (such as myself) towards a full understanding by transitioning into the deeper concepts gently.

--Cudweeds 13:58, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Removing 'Administration of George W. Bush' section from article

This entire section is a synthesis and constitutes original research. It is also not reliably sourced, but providing references probably will not correct the problem. The section has been tagged for some time now, and no one has taken the initiative to fix it. Therefore, I am removing it to the talk page. I realize this is a controversial article, but this section is not entitled to stay in the article in its current form simply on the basis that the article is disputed. I would like to remind all editors that the burden of evidence is on the editor who restores controversial content to the article. By no means is it mandatory for any editor to place a {{fact}} tag on any disputed content, nor is it my obligation to fix it or improve it, contrary to some editors' beliefs. So please, if you want to salvage any of this content, correct the problems, source it properly, and restore it to the article. MoodyGroove 19:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

==Administration of George W. Bush==

This appears to be original research and needs to be sourced:

Thus, neoconservative thinkers were eager to implement a new foreign policy with the change in Administrations from Clinton to George W. Bush. Despite this, the Bush campaign and then the early Bush Administration did not appear to exhibit strong support for neoconservative principles, as candidate Bush stated his opposition to the idea of "nation-building" and an early foreign policy confrontation with China was handled without the vociferous confrontation suggested by some neoconservative thinkers. Also early in the Administration, some neoconservatives criticized Bush's Administration as insufficiently supportive of the State of Israel, and suggested Bush's foreign policies were not substantially different from those of President Clinton.

===China spy plane incident===

This contains weasel phrases and appears to be original research. This article isn't about the Bush presidency or the spy plane incident. So it needs to be linked to neoconservatism, with reliable sources.

The Bush Administration was criticized by some neoconservatives for their non-confrontational reaction during the U.S.-China spy plane incident. On April 1, 2001, a Chinese J-8 fighter collided with a U.S. Navy EP-3E spy plane over the South China Sea, killing the Chinese pilot and forcing the EP-3E to make an emergency landing on the Chinese island of Hainan, where the twenty-four members of the American crew were held and interrogated for eleven days while their plane was searched and photographed by the Chinese. The Bush Administration conducted diplomacy and then issued a statement of regret to the Chinese Foreign Ministry. President Reagan's former Assistant Secretary of Defense, Frank Gaffney, wrote in an article in National Review Online that President Bush "should use this occasion to make clear to the American people that the PRC is acting in an increasingly belligerent manner. Mr. Bush needs to talk about these threats as well as his commitment to defend the American people, their forces overseas and their allies."

===September 11, 2001===

This appears to be original research and needs to be referenced with reliable sources.

The influence of neoconservatism in the Bush administration appeared to have found its purpose in the shift from the threat of Communism to the threat of Islamic terrorism. The administration undertook an invasion of Afghanistan shortly after the September 11 attacks, to remove the al-Qaeda-supporting Taliban from power. The administration also began planning and obtaining political and diplomatic support for an invasion of Iraq, citing Iraq's dictatorial government, support for terrorism, purported links to al-Qaeda, work on chemical and nuclear weapons, and refusal to abide by U.N. resolutions regarding inspection of weapons programs.

This appears to be original research and needs to be referenced with reliable sources.

Neoconservative identification with the State of Israel was furthered by the September 11 attacks, which served to create a perceived parallel between the United States and Israel as democratic nations under the threat of terrorist attack. Moreover, some neoconservatives have long advocated that the United States should emulate Israel's tactics of pre-emptive attacks, especially Israel's strikes in the 1980s on nuclear facilities in Libya and Osirak, Iraq.

==="Bush Doctrine"===

This is original research and contains a synthesis. How is the Bush Doctrine related to neoconservatism? If that's the argument it needs to be sourced.

lol. The Bush doctrine is also commonly called 'the Wolfowitz doctrine' for a reason. There's a gap between 'unsourced' and original research a mile wide and mile deep.WolfKeeper 22:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

It's the synthesis that bothers me. First, going after terrorists (or the nations that harbor them) after September 11, 2001 is not pre-emptive. Second, the quote "will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries..." needs to be sourced (who said it, when, and to whom?) and the comment "This doctrine can be seen as the abandonment of a focus on the doctrine of deterrence [...] through mutual assured destruction..." seems bizarre to me, because it implies that "mutual assured destruction" (usually understood to mean nuclear war) is a viable alternative to the Bush Doctrine in the global war on terrorism. That seems like an odd chain of reasoning to me. MoodyGroove 00:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

The Bush Doctrine, promulgated after September 11, incorporates the concept that nations harboring terrorists are themselves enemies of the United States. It also embraces the Clinton Doctrine, which is the view that pre-emptive military action is justified to protect the United States from the threat of terrorism or attack. Both doctrines state that the United States "will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries from pursuing a military build-up in hopes of surpassing, or equaling, the power of the United States." This doctrine can be seen as the abandonment of a focus on the doctrine of deterrence (in the Cold War through Mutual Assured Destruction) as the primary means of self-defense. While there have been occasional preemptive strikes by American forces, until recently preemptive strikes have not been an official American foreign and military policy.

This is a synthesis and shows only that the AEI agreed with the fundamental premise of the Bush doctrine.

Neoconservatives won a landmark victory with the Bush Doctrine after September 11. Thomas Donnelly, a resident fellow at the influential conservative think-tank, American Enterprise Institute (AEI), argued in "The Underpinnings of the Bush doctrine" that "the fundamental premise of the Bush Doctrine is true: The United States possesses the means—economic, military, diplomatic—to realize its expansive geopolitical purposes. Further, and especially in light of the domestic political reaction to the attacks of September 11, the victory in Afghanistan and the remarkable skill demonstrated by President Bush in focusing national attention, it is equally true that Americans possess the requisite political willpower to pursue an expansive strategy."

This paragraph shows that Max Boot favors an aggressive U.S. foreign policy. How is it related to the Bush presidency? The implied argument is a synthesis.

In his well-publicized piece "The Case for American Empire" in the conservative Weekly Standard, Max Boot argued that "The most realistic response to terrorism is for America to embrace its imperial role." He countered sentiments that the "United States must become a kinder, gentler nation, must eschew quixotic missions abroad, must become, in Pat Buchanan's phrase, 'a republic, not an empire'," arguing that "In fact this analysis is exactly backward: The September 11 attack was a result of insufficient American involvement and ambition; the solution is to be more expansive in our goals and more assertive in their implementation."

Nearly identical to neoconservatism? Original research and synthesis. The fact that Bush praised a book that is 'similar to neoconservatism' means what exactly?

President Bush has expressed praise for Natan Sharansky's book, The Case For Democracy, which promotes a foreign policy philosophy nearly identical to neoconservatives'. President Bush has effusively praised this book, calling it a "glimpse of how I think".

Original research and unsourced speculation:

At the same time, there have been limits in the power of neoconservatives in the Bush administration. The former Secretary of State Colin Powell (as well as the State department as a whole) was largely seen as being an opponent of neoconservative ideas. However, with the resignation of Colin Powell and the promotion of Condoleezza Rice, along with widespread resignations within the State department, the neoconservative point of view within the Bush administration has been solidified. While the neoconservative notion of tough and decisive action has been apparent in U.S. policy toward the Middle East, it has not been seen in U.S. policy toward China and Russia or in the handling of the North Korean nuclear crisis.

===Impact of 2003 Iraq War===

====Charges of appeasement====

This is unsourced and the cited reference is to a photo of Rumsfeld shaking Saddam Hussein's hand. Need I go on?

Neoconservative proponents of the 2003 Iraq War likened the conflict to Winston Churchill stand against Adolf Hitler. Former United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld likened Hussein to Joseph Stalin and Hitler. President George W. Bush singled out Iraq's dictator as the "great evil" who "by his search for terrible weapons, by his ties to terrorist groups, threatens the security of every free nation, including the free nations of Europe."

This is unsourced.

In the writings of Paul Wolfowitz, Norman Podhoretz, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Max Boot, William Kristol, Robert Kagan, William Bennett, Peter Rodman, and others influential in forging the foreign policy doctrines of the Bush administration, there are frequent references to the appeasement of Hitler at Munich in 1938, to which are compared the Cold War's policies of détente and containment (rather than rollback) with the Soviet Union and the PRC.

What is a conventional foreign policy expert? That's a weasel phrase and shows a POV issue. The general concept is true but needs to be sourced.

While more conventional foreign policy experts argued that Iraq could be restrained by enforcing No-Fly Zones and by a policy of inspection by United Nations inspectors to restrict its ability to possess chemical or nuclear weapons, neoconservatives considered this policy direction ineffectual and labeled it appeasement of Saddam Hussein.

Also removing this unsourced addition to the History and origins section by 76.215.208.144 (talk · contribs) 02:36, 2 July 2007

"Neocons" belive that the United States should not be ashamed to use its unrivaled power- forcefully if necessary- to promote its values around the wolrd. Some even speak of the need to cultivate a U.S. empire. Neoconservatives believe modern threats facing the US can no longer be reliably contained and therefore must be prevented, through preemptive military action.

List of Neoconservatives

I looked through this lengthy talk page and did not see anything about this, though I may have missed it. Why is there not a list page of Neoconservatives? I think that would be useful as there are list pages for socialists, libertarians, etc. --CommonSense101 20:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the term, currently, is far too subjective to warrant the labeling of people with it. MarkSchad (talk) 19:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Origins of the Neoconservative movement

Leo Strauss is considered the mind behind the movement. Granted he did not start the movement, he was the influence that created the movement. On Fukuyama's own wikipage it says he is indebted to Strauss. (This unsigned comment left by Aptitude (talk · contribs) 21:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC))

Hillary Clinton

Today's Cato Daily Podcast highlighted the similarities of Hillary Clinton and the neoconservatives.

Here is the link: Cato Daily Podcast July, 30 2007—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jayson Virissimo (talk • contribs)

Popular culture criticisms

I think the "Criticism in popular culture" section[2] of the article is not worthy of being in an encyclopedia article. Only some of the bullet points really pass the notability criterion - it's an arbitrary list of trivial factoids. Can we cut it? BobFromBrockley 09:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hate Speech

"Some would argue that the term neoconservative is hate speech." Do we have a citation for the "some" who would make this claim? Otherwise, I think it is POV.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.25.238 (talk • contribs)

If somebody thinks it's relevant, then perhaps a section should be added to Neoconservatism stipulating that everything is hate speech and, when User:58.175.1.253 uses the word "faggot," it doesn't mean that he hates homosexuals. Otherwise, I don't think this comment improves the talk page or the article. Rangergordon (talk) 05:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

What is Neoconservatism?

The first five paragraphs of introduction do not answer this question. They do say a little bit about what it is not. Perhaps this inadequate intro can be amended with some broad definitions.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.52.16 (talk • contribs)

Agreed entirely. I came here to learn what neoconservatism is and all I get is a relatively vague statement and an understanding that they like intervention. Can we clarify a bit - and more quickly in the article? 141.161.69.59 (talk) 06:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Barry Goldwater

I reverted this edit that removed the following comment: [Neoconservatism] achieved its first victory in the nomination of Barry Goldwater as the Republican Presidential candidate in 1964 The edit summary said: The Neoconservatives did not come from the Goldwater campaign, most Neoconservatives opposed the Goldwater movement - See pg 38 of "Where the Right went Wrong" by Pat Buchanan

The comment in question was well referenced:

1. ^ Rick Perlstein, Before the Storm: Barry Goldwater and the Unmaking of the American Consensus (New York: Hill and Wang, 2001)
2. ^ William F. Buckley, Jr., Up From Liberalism (Stein and Day, 1984)

So Icon1776 (talk · contribs) threw out the above captioned references by Perlstein and Buckley in favor of a reference from a book written by Pat Buchanan. I don't think that's a sufficient reason to remove the comment, especially considering that Harry Jaffa is credited with writing Goldwater's famous quote "Extremism in the defence of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." If you want to add (in an appropriate place) that Buchanan disagrees, I don't have a problem with that. MoodyGroove 23:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

My thought is that we really need to consider whether this discussion of Goldwater's nomination as "the first victory" for neoconservatives belongs at the top of the page. I've made no edits, but someone should really rethink this. Perlstein is a pop-politics author, not a scholar. His academic credentials are a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science and an unfinished graduate degree. I think we can safely say that William F. Buckley, Jr. is not a neutral academic authority. Frankly, neither of these comments qualifies as academically suitable. Harry Jaffa's involvement in Goldwater's campaign as a speech writer is hardly evidence of Goldwater's political views. Further, Goldwater stood for libertarian policies, something completely at odds with the modern definition of the term "neoconservative". 21:34 GMT, 11 Nov. 2007, BriceTimmons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.163.191 (talk) 21:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Merger of article "Roots of neoconservativism" into "Neoconservatism"

It has been suggested that Roots of neoconservativism be merged into Neoconservatism by NYScholar with this edit
Comment and critique invited. -- Yellowdesk 00:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Support: I don't see why that fairly short article has any content that should not be in this article. BobFromBrockley 08:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge. There is no apparent reason why these two articles should be separated. --m3taphysical 23:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge. Neoconservative is straw-man term and, as this article demonstrates, can only be explained in the context in which it was used and the character of the political views of those who used it. The other article provides a better foundation. Rogerfgay 20:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Support The articles support each other and are both small, we should merge them.71.57.186.45 (talk) 21:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge or delete. This article isn't notable enough to stand on it's own, and I don't see why it shouldn't be included in the "Neoconservatism" page.Reinoe (talk) 19:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Team B

Several people closely associated with or identified as neoconservatives were involved with Team B. The Power of Nightmares states that Rumsfeld lobbied Ford to set the team up. IMO Team B needs to be mentioned, as it shows how the Neoconservatives have historically operated against both USSR and against Saddam Hussein in Iraq by grossly exaggerating the evidence and hyping up unrealistic threats.WolfKeeper 02:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Support: I think the article should be merged with the "Roots of Neoconservatism". this information would give a "big picture" application of the movement, especially if it focuses on real-life policies. Eviemhm (talk) 22:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)eviemhm

Neocons vs. Academia

To combat the one-sided views of neoconservativism generally presented in academia, I'm looking for a pro-neoconservative book to have my students read. Most of the texts in my left-wing discipline present neoconservatism in a harsh, biased light. Can anyone recommend a good starter text for an upper-level class on World Politics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by M. Frederick (talk • contribs) 18:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

None???? Seriously?

There's no starter text that pro-neocon because neoconservatives are Platonic political theorists. Straussian political theory views the education of "the masses" in politics as a bad idea. Leo Strauss published enough material for any professor. Francis Fukuyama is extensively published, and William Kristol has written plenty. Further, while the Straussians see themselves as a group (or possibly two groups, West Coast and East Coast), they do not typically identify under a sub-party banner like Libertarians or Progressives. Thus, no one who is actually a legitimate, academic neoconservative would write a "pro-neoconservative book". The most common neoconservative text which comes to mind is Frum and Perle's An End to Evil. It is, in my opinion, intentionally trite hogwash. In true Platonist fashion it condenses the authors' ideas into a mass-consumable "noble lie". 23:40 GMT, 11 Nov. 2007 BriceTimmons —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.242.163.191 (talk) 21:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Iraq War

Was wondering how there could be an article on neoconservatives without any mention of their role in the Bush II administration, the origins of the war in Iraq and the ramifications of that intervention. Wanted to put something in about that.Mysteryquest 20:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Would it also be appropriate to talk about Kennedy? It seems like if we started adding things like that it would never stop. --24.251.155.132 05:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

2000?

I guess this is related to the previous post, but why is there no 2000 in tracing the development/history of neoconservatism? This would seem to be its most important period inasmuch as its the application of one of its most basic tenants, the war in Iraq and the imposition of American ideals, etc.Mysteryquest 21:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Neoconservatism/Israel/Evangelism/Islam/Bush Administration/Iraq/Iran/Nuclear Power/Preemptive War

i agree with several other posters that the article currently revels in historically situating neoconservatism as a philosophical legacy while ignoring the reality of actions taken by people like scooter libby, paul wolfowitz, feith, wurmser, cheney, rice, bush, pat roberts, bolton, and others who have become de facto neoconservatives in the eyes of the world, if not in the eyes of their defenders, by adhering themselves to that which neoconservatism has become.

semantics, citations, arguments aside; as lao tzu once wrote, the eternal truth cannot be told, so it is at best self-deluded and at worst deliberately propagandistic to claim that one set of facts is "POV" while another set is not.

the reality of neoconservatism is that it is allied in history with the bush administration and its destructive invasion of iraq. a continued failure by the wikipedia article to put that into proper context simply spotlights the limitations of the wikipedia format. the article needs improvement imho.

this writer must let more pedantic souls argue wording, since i so strongly miss the taste of truth in this article (that neoconservatism is the illegitimate father of usa imperialism) that i cannot bother to contribute more than this reaction, hoping that truly fair-minded people who are interested in providing accuracy in the wikipedia format will recognize that the article is faulty until it puts the neoconservative manifestation in bush's administration into appropriate context.

there might be no neoconservatism worth writing an article about, were it not for the election of 2000 and the bush administration and its invasion of iraq. the article does not convey that truth adequately to me. it pretends that neoconservatism is a bunch of old, jaded hippies. it is not. neoconservatism is the club name of a bunch of self-righteous, violent, paranoid, religiously fanatical, american imperialists. that truth should be known to readers who wish to learn about neoconservatism. citations would certainly be available were it worth the bother to provide them. do your own due diligence.

The standard of the Wikipedia is not truth, it is verifiability with reliable sources. It has nothing to do with fairness. It has everything to do with the fact that the Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a soapbox for anti-Americanism or anti-neoconservatism. The comments you provide here (which do not assume good faith on the part of editors who do not share your point of view) do nothing to help this article or the Wikipedia. If you want to read an article that outlines your version of the "reality of neoconservatism" I would recommend The Power of Nightmares. It's right up your alley. MoodyGroove 14:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

Good advice, particularly since The Power of Nightmares meets the definition of Reliable Source in the Wikipedia. :-)WolfKeeper 19:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Neocon Policies

Added a section of Neocon Policies that describes what distinguishes neocons from other movements. Incredibly, there was no description of this. I used an in-depth article written by Kristol, who cheerfully refers to himself as a neocon, and who is considered by many to be the founder of neoconservatism. Thank you, Jgui 08:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits have consideerably improved the article. However, the Kristol article is summarized in a section near the end[3], so there is now repetitiion - one of the two section needs to go, and the material merged. Meanwhile, I think there is also repetition between the lede, which talks about etymology, the section on usage[4] and the section on the term as a pejorative[5]. Anyone feel like dealing with this? BobFromBrockley 16:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Bobfrombrockley, thanks, I had missed the alternate Kristol section since it was so paraphrased and pared down. As you suggested, I incorporated bits of it into the section I had added, and the remaining sentence into the Usage and general views section, which I then renamed (since usage was gone). I also incorporated the pejorative section into criticism. I agree with you that there is still a lot of repetive and unnecessary history: I think the history and evolution of views sections are both long and could be combined, but that is too much work for me now. I will revisit though. Thank you, Jgui 22:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Bush administration

Added a section on Bush Administration. Apparently all current history (from election of Bush to today) was removed by MoodyGroove in June. His reason was that the text he removed was OR or at least uncited. I have therefore been careful to write a new section using cited text from Reliable Sources. Thank you, Jgui 06:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no citation that links Who, What, Where, When, or Why the neoconsevatives to the Bush Doctrine. Most of the persons under this single heading in the USA are members of the Social Democrats USA. Also note that a single author is nothing more than a personal opnion and needs additional facts to backup the claims made in a large part of this total piece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.171.114.189 (talk) 10:14, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Here's the thing

As I read the article, I don't think it emphasizes enough that this is about political labeling more than political philosophy. It has to do with political rhetoric and party line campaigning more than actual political philosophy. Reagan slapped a "conservative" label on a very left-wing political agenda that really had nothing to do with the philosophical rhetoric used to sell his positions. He was so effective at it that his far left domestic agenda is alive and kicking today - with bipartisan support. Republican "neocons" (so to speak) are still today fighting to take credit for policy initiatives that completely eliminated application of the Bill of Rights in major areas such as family law. Rogerfgay 10:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Where is honest proof that

...from the first paragraph

"In summary, Neo-Conservatism is the belief of the elite, that they should take all liberties away in order to profit maximally from them. In order to do this, events are staged as a contribution to cultivating fear and panic which, through the media principally, is manipulated into voting through such acts as will take away civil liberties - as has recently been seen in the USA."

No credibility form Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by William Wallace Lives (talk • contribs) 00:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Removal

I removed "By the 1980s, being considered a conservative was no longer a cultural insult." as it is unsourced and nonsensical for an encyclopedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.178.94.104 (talk) 23:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Structure

Jgui has done some good work in tidying up this unruly article. I think it needs more work, but am unsure how to proceed. The main problem is the way issues around etymology and issues around the neoconservative movement work together. I think it would be helpful to remove all the material to do with the usage of the term to one specific section. There is also a lot of repetition around relationships with other forms of conservatism, and material under "criticisms" on crits by other conservatives needs to be placed in closer relationship with "distinctions from other conservatives". What do people think? BobFromBrockley 12:28, 12 November 2007 (UTC) To be more specific, I think that the article should be reworked like this:

• "Evolution of neocon views" [6] should be taken apart and its sections distributed elsewhere.
  • The first 2 paras of "Usage & general views" [7] (on usage) should form the start of a new section on the usage of the term neoconservatism. The 2nd 2 paras (on general views) should be merged into "Drift away from New Left" [8], which it partly repeats.
  • "Neocon views on foreign policy" [9] should either become its own section, or move into historical section, perhaps jsut before "1980s" [10].
  • "Distinctions from other conservatives" [11] should form section of its own.
  • "Criticism of the term" [12] should form subsection of new section on usage (see above)
• Criticisms section should likewise be split up, with the bits on libertarian and paleo-cons going into new "Distinctions from other conservatives" section (see above).

How does that sound? BobFromBrockley 12:39, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

what is neo conservatism?

i read the article. i still don't understand what is the term. will someone please explain what is neo-cons? please do it in simple words in the top of the artice. 217.194.205.230 (talk) 16:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Neo-con

Neoconservatives are often dubbed neocons by critics. i think this is very misleading, as i understand it the full term neoconservative was originally a criticism. There no really evidence that neo-con is anything more than shorthand for the full term. The sources for that statement are being misused. --Neon white (talk) 17:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Definition of Neoconservative

The use of the term "neoconservative" appears to have changed over time. It once was used to describe conservatives who rejected the post-war consensus on economic and social policies in the US, UK and Canada, and wanted to return the Republican and Conservative Parties to their perceived roots. Sometimes they were called "neoliberals", since they espoused classical liberalism rather than Toryism. So Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher and Brian Mulroney were described as neo-conservatives and sometimes as neo-liberals, in contrast to previous leaders like Jerry Ford, Ted Heath and Joe Clark.

However in recent years, usage has changed to refer to supporters of George W. Bush's foreign policy, and the term is sometimes a proper noun in upper case. Also, while the earlier neoconservatives were influenced by Hayek, the current group are influenced by Strauss.

Today, Reagan and Thatcher are more often described as simply conservative.

While the article acknowledges different usages, I think it might acknowlege how it has changed.

--The Four Deuces (talk) 09:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

What does a present neoconservative look like?

The current picture is like showing what a chicken looks like, by showing a dinasaur.

See Paul Wolfowitz. 142.150.204.167 (talk) 18:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Weight and OR in relation to Eoghan Harris

While it is a fact that Eoghan Harris supports many of the Bush administrations actions I don't know of a source that is calling him a "neo-conservative". First off there is a huge undue weight issue here. Secondly its completely unsourced. Thirdly connecting a supporter of the Bush administartion with being a support of neo-conservativism in general (without sources) is OR. I'm tagging the section as unsourced and as OR - if sources can't be found for it soon it will have to go--Cailil ^talk 23:04, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I moved all details about Ireland and U.K. to Neoconservatism (disambiguation), because Neoconservatism is about the U.S. Affect on US. neocons was not supported. I created a new section in this article, Neoconservatism#Usage outside the United States and linked to and summarized the text of Neoconservatism (disambiguation). You can make new articles for Ireland and UK if they warrant it, following the example of:

• Neoconservatism in Canada
• Neoconservatism in Japan

- Colfer2 (talk) 22:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Antisemitism, New Left, Origin of the term, Realism

Today I cleaned up the refs and took out a lot of wordiness. A lot! I adjusted for some WP:MOS stuff like straight quotes and italics. The refs still need work. As for substantive content, here are the changes I made:

• Antisemitism: I found a few more refs to the "neocon is a codeword for Jewish" type stuff, better than the GLORIA email. I added a new section, and dragged out related existing content from the Criticism of the term neoconservative section. It's a bit long maybe, though I trimmed the quotes pretty severely. The NeoCon Reader book has a good article by Max Boot, addressing the stereotyping issue, which I did not use. The same book has the David Brooks article I quoted. Much of it is available to read on Google books.
• New Left: I commented out a confusing phrase about the New Left coming out of the Soviet denunciation of Stalin. A bunch of clauses were stuffed into one sentence and it was not clear to me what it meant. The article New Left asserts that Khrushchev's 1956 speech and Hungary 1956 were important to the development of the U.K. left, but that the U.S. left was more tied to domestic developments. In any case, you'd have to get into Maoism & China to round it out, and it is pretty murky. I think maybe just leaving it as a wikilink to New Left suffices for that. I kept in the wikilink to the "anti-Stalinist left", which had been munged to read "anti-Soviet", which was weird. And not correct except historically. Also, Détente was thrown in at the beginning of the sentence, but that was 10-15 years later, so it was a mess, and I think I fixed it pretty well. New version:

“ The neoconservatives, arising from the anti-Stalinist left of the 1950s, opposed the anti-capitalism of the New Left of the 1960s. They broke from the liberal consensus of the early post-World War II years in foreign policy as well, opposing Détente with the Soviet Union in the late 1960s and 1970s. ”

• Origin of the term. I added more detailed sources for Michael Harrington's coining of the term in 1973. All sides seem to agree on this. I merged two different paragraphs discussing the history of the term, one towards the beginning and one at the end of the section! This allowed an easy way to introduce Irving Kristol & Podhoretz: by mentioning when they first embraced the term: 1979 and 1982 (or earlier, I left it open), and what they did leading up to that. Very brief of course.
  • Actually there is one small issue of Harrington, probably not important. The book I cited says he first broached the subject at a Commentary symposium in 1973 before he published the Dissent article of the same year. If I get a hold of the Commentary article, I'll see what words he used there. But I left that open anyway.
• Realism. Realism (international relations) was wikilinked with the visible text "pragmatic" approach to foreign policy. But the wikilink now redirects to Political realism. So I used that wording, appending in foreign relations.

I tried to make the diff easy to read, but I missed a couple of line breaks, and the wiki machine does not tolerate those well. -Colfer2 (talk) 23:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Ack, I'm going to tweak that paragraph above, to:

“ The neoconservatives, arising from the anti-Stalinist left of the 1950s, opposed the anti-capitalism of the New Left of the 1960s. They broke from the liberal consensus of the early post-World War II years in foreign policy, and opposed Détente with the Soviet Union in the late 1960s and 1970s. ”

-Colfer2 (talk) 00:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Heritage Foundation

"Prominent neoconservative periodicals are Commentary and The Weekly Standard. Neoconservatives are associated with foreign policy initiatives of think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), The Heritage Foundation, and the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA)." While it's true that there are many neoconservatives associated with the Heritage Foundation, it is certainly not a specifically neoconservative institution. (I suspect the same may be true of AEI, which I don't know as well). Perhaps some rewording is in order here to distinguish it from the archetypically neoconservative PNAC and the solidly neoconservative JINSA? - Jmabel | Talk 22:17, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Criticism

I removed the following sentence from the intro to this section:

It can violate the freedoms of not only that government's citizens, but other governments' citizens for establishing global order.

for being both unclear in meaning and unsourced. Ms. Clo (talk) 13:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Ron Paul's 17 Bullet Points

An anonymous user on several related I.P.'s has been adding Ron Paul's 17 bullet points of a libertarian critique of Neoconservatism. In addition to be being unbalanced and lengthy (the critique is presented uncritically), the content is not presented encyclopedically, but as an epigrammatic political platform. The anonymous user is:

• 84.64.217.3 (talk · contribs) / user-5440d903.wfd79a.dsl.pol.co.uk / ENERGIS-AS (Energis UK) / Glasgow, Scotland
• 84.70.59.239 (talk · contribs) / user-54463bef.lns2-c12.dsl.pol.co.uk / ENERGIS-AS (Energis UK) / London, England

Now the user has hit my Talk page with a WP:3RR notice, ironic since he himself or she herself has made more than 3 reverts. Let's see if we can resolve this here. Opinions on the 17 Ron Paul bullet points? I will revert for now. -Colfer2 (talk) 18:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. That is how Paul presented his criticism in his speech, and is a good and concise outline of how the libertarian right views the neoconservative movement. Regarding the supposed "lengthiness", you fail to notice that there is a link to an entire article on the Neoconservative - Paleoconservative Conflict at the top of the next section. And, FYI, I am not a Paul supporter, in fact I support the Euston Manifesto. --90.242.71.63 (talk) 20:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Here is the version of the section we are discussing. I don't feel any ownership. I just don't think Ron Paul is as important as anything else in the article of that size. And I think his bullet points should be given some context. Many of them are redundant to other parts of the article, as well. It seems more like an quick cut-and-paste than a considered part of the present article. I don't understand your comment about "link to an entire article" as a link to Ron Paul's 17 points would of course be fine, especially if briefly introduced from a neutral point of view. I note your I.P. is user-5af2473f.tcl120.dsl.pol.co.uk, Swinton, England. -Colfer2 (talk) 20:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The section is about libertarian conservative criticism of the neoconservatives. Given that Ron Paul is the figurehead of the U.S. libertarian right, his critical overview of neoconservatism does carry enough weight to be included in the section. I have no problem with adding neoconservative criticism of Paul and others' libertarian beliefs at the end of the section (which at present is too brief compared to Neoconservative - Paleoconservative Conflict). "I note your I.P. is user-5af2473f.tcl120.dsl.pol.co.uk, Swinton, England." Bizarre, but thanks for the information. LOL --90.242.71.63 (talk) 20:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Just trying to figure out if it's just the two of us talking! ;) What is your suggestion for the best edit to the article? -Colfer2 (talk) 21:01, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I will look for some anti-libertarian criticism from neoconservatives. Bill Kristol made remarks about Ron Paul on Fox News recently, dismissing him as an anti-American crackpot (broadcast on December 24, 2007 at 12:20pm (EST)). [13] --84.69.192.21 (talk) 22:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen or No Hyphen?

I notice the article is called neo-conservatism (in the url) but throughout the article it is all "neoconservatism", "neoconservative" and "neocon". Does anyone know definitively if it is correct without the dash? JettaMann (talk) 17:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about 'correct', but a Google search shows that 'neoconservatism' (without the dash) is somewhat more common that 'neo-conservatism'. 'Neoconservatism' is also the title of this article, and appears to have been so at the time you made that post - perhaps you were confused. In any case, I don't think there's anything wrong with removing the hyphen - it's common in American English to merge hyphenated prefixes into one word, and we take that approach with various other articles (see neoliberalism, paleoconservatism, etc) as well as this one. Terraxos (talk) 15:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

South Africa

I cut this recent uncited, very polemically written anonymous addition, but there may be something substantive here that, if better written and well cited, could deserve mention in the article.

Neocons were very sympathetic to white minority rule in South Africa and the UNITA organization in Angola which terorized the local population trying to over-throw the Angolan government. The Neocons tried to brand the ANC in South Africa as a communist organization which was the Neocans main argument against one man one vote. They believed the ANC would create a communist dictatorship if elected. Most Americans did not buy into the false Neocon rhetoric against the ANC. Today the ANC has been in power for over 15 years and there has not been any attempt what so ever to create this communist dictatorship the Neocons were claiming would happen.

- Jmabel | Talk 22:46, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Foreign interventionism

Linked some current policies and neoconservative practices reflecting their support for foreign interventionism like Effects-Based Operations and low intensity conflict that are in use for the War on Terrorism and are in line with the Bush Doctrine as he is Commander-in-chief ordering these into action. Also linked some controversies to these practices like Operation Gladio, School of the Americas and the Iraq War. Some conservatives like Rush Limbaugh have spoken up against vilification and demonization of these policies as fuelling a culture of fear. Scierguy (talk) 15:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I further separated into a separate paragraph on the controversy over foreign interventionism as promoted by neoconservatives; fleshing out with more and current controversies, linking in e.g the War in North-West Pakistan currently developing. I also added references. Scierguy (talk) 16:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Are anyone up for joining in making an article US neoconservative foreign interventionism? There already is an article interventionism (politics), but I feel it will be an enormous undertaking trying to cover every nation's foreign history of interventions... really. ;-) Scierguy (talk) 20:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Odd Kristol Description

I found it odd to read that Irving Kristol had been an "active" advocate of Trotskyism. My recollection of his biographical information (which I don't have in front of me) is that he joined the Socialist Workers Party for two years while in college. During that time, by his own description as I recall, he was more caught up in intellectual studies that were usually well-removed from anything which Leon Trotsky himself advocated. Kristol did praise the Trotskyists for having created a certain type of intellectual environment which he recalled fondly. But by his own admission most of his studies were focused elsewhere rather than on the questions of Marxism which Trotsky and the movement he led were intensely debating at the time. There is no record of Kristol having played any significant role in the political battles of the Socialist Workers Party at that time that I'm aware of. He was kicked out for supporting Max Shachtman in 1940. But he hardly seems to have been very "active" in any noteworthy way as a member of the SWP (US). If Patrick Buchanan and some other conservatives didn't so specifically harp on that two-year stint in the SWp (US) it would hardly be worth mentioning. A better way of phrasing it would be something like "Irving Kristol joined the Socialist Workers Party in 1938 and held member status until the expulsion of Max Shachtman's faction in 1940." That's more historically accurate than saying that Kristol was "active" as a Trotskyist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.38 (talk) 21:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Deleting irrelevant data on Irving Kristol

Deleted bolded section of this --

"The first major neoconservative to embrace the term and considered its founder is Irving Kristol, an American Jew from an orthodox Jewish family,"

-- Irving Kristol's ethnic or religious affiliation certainly does not belong in the lead of the article Neoconservatism. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 15:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Unless it can be unequivocally demonstrated that Kristol's ideology was influenced by his parent's religious convictions, this information is not relevant here. JFW | T@lk 21:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Irving Kristol as Trotskyist. Cite is okay but still doesn't belong.

User:Jayjg deleted "Irving Kristol had been an active supporter of Trotskyism", with the edit summary "remove dubious trivia from lede".
The cite provided for this, "The Neoconservative Invention" http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg052003.asp does seem to reliably establish that Kristol attended Trotskyist meetings and "was a Trotskyist", so this is apparently not "dubious". (There's also additional info in Irving Kristol.)
However, I agree that this factoid does not belong in the lead of the article Neoconservatism. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 13:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

See the comments above. As this link points out, Kristol brief brush with a sort of Trotskyism in college is much overblown, and he resigned from the Socialist Worker's Party just one year after joining it. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Opening paragraph is WRONG

The opening paragraph says "they align themselves with most conservative values, such as free market, limited welfare, and traditional cultural values." That's just flat wrong. In fact, the whole POINT of neoconservatism is that it's an ideology that accepted the liberal welfare state but also approved of an anti-communist foreign policy. See much later in the article, under criticism of the term: "There is no 'neo-conservative' movement in the United States. When there was one, it was made up of former Democrats who embraced the welfare state but supported Ronald Reagan's Cold War policies against the Soviet bloc."

I don't have time right now to dig in an craft a coherent 2-3 sentence description of neoconservatism, but this needs fixing. Too many lefties/progressives (and I am one) throw around "neoconservative" as a synonym for "conservative" or "right-wing". It is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karichisholm (talk • contribs) 05:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

"it's an ideology that accepted the liberal welfare state"

That claim seems very badly inconsistent with the fact that neo-conservatives were fulsome supporters of the Reagan and Bush administrations and these all reduced social welfare spending for the poor. What record do you actually have of major neo-conservatives advocating a "liberal welfare state"? I think all that you would ever be able to argue on this point is that neo-conservatives are more practical towards getting elected in order to push through spending cuts in social welfare than, say, Barry Goldwater was. But I doubt that you'll find any serious record of neo-conservatives attempting to actively promote social welfare spending. This mainly sounds like a line popular on the Right among Buchanan and Paul voters. Instead of acknowledging that neo-conservatives since 1980 have pushed through significant cuts in "liberal welfare" spending, and the results have not been as golden as had been promised, they like to argue that neo-conservatives have simply hesitated to push through the full climactic spending cuts and hence and disappointments are to be accounted for by this. It's similar to the way that paleo-conservatives who attacked Truman for rejecting MacArthur's demands to pour atomic bombs on the Yalu River in the Korean War subsequently expressed disillusionment with the "limited war" in Vietnam (with the access on the "limited" component as a negative feature).

antisemitism in this article

I see two problems with wikipedia articles about neoconservatism. First, the ideology of neoconservatism tends to be presented in a very distorted way. Second, Jewish origins of some neoconservatives are stressed to much. It is often ignored that the core principles of neoconservatism have little to do with specifically Jewish issues, and the whole movement has long ago entered mainstream political thinking in the US (for example the 1999 U.S. invasion of Yugoslavia can be described as a purely neoconservative adventure). Against this background, saying that neoconservatism is Jewish is akin to saying that christianity is Jewish, because it was developed by a small group of Jewish intellectuals, who got disillusioned with traditional judaism.Keverich1 (talk) 22:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The spread of neoconservative philosophies among high-ranking members of the GOP has indeed crossed religious lines; John Bolton is Lutheran, Karl Rove is (by differing reports) either Episcopalian or agnostic, and George W. Bush is a (possibly born-again) Methodist. Still, the core founders of the neoconservative movement were predominantly Jewish, and many (if not all) are strong advocates of U.S. military interventionism in foreign--specifically, Israeli--affairs. Among these are Norman Podhoretz, author of Breaking Ranks; Douglas Feith, supporter of Israel's Likud Party; and Michael Ledeen, a founding member of the Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs.

The question, then, seems to be: Is criticism of American neoconservative philosophy the same as criticism of Jews? Perhaps it is, but only if it can be shown that the goals of neoconservatism are universally (or at least commonly) held among American Jews. This is clearly not the case. (For one example, see results of the American Jewish Committee's 2007 poll.) American Jews tend to hold liberal political views, and have strongly opposed the neoconservatives' War on Terror and the Iraq War.

Over the past several years, the U.S. government's implementation of neoconservative policy has required the participation of a many politicians, businesspeople, military troops and taxpayers--Jews and Gentiles alike. Even if neoconservatism were once a primarily Jewish concern, it no longer is today. Neoconservatism is not a tenet of Judaism, nor is it an essential component of Jewish life.

Criticism of the current policies and goals of this American political philosophy, therefore, need not constitute criticism of the Jewish people. Still, if some neoconservatives have charged political opponents with Antisemitism, such charges may be cited subject to editorial review. Rangergordon (talk) 10:12, 21 November 2008 (UTC)