Talk:Sharia

I think this entire page sould be edited with a slightly less biased eye, perhaps by an impartial scholar or legal professional. It shows little Objectivetiy an appears to promote sharia rather that explain it.

I don't know what the tenets of Sharia law are, and after reading this page know little more. I do know however the difference between facts and objectivity and opinion and point of view. This article needs to be revised so that it is fact based, not POV. I hope that an objective, informed source can contribute and edit this article so that the content is substantive and objective - state what it is and remove the commentary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.84.45.233 (talk) 08:26, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Author(s)/writer(s) of the sharia

Wouldn't it be convenient if the person(s) who wrote the sharia would be mentioned in the article, and maybe a section about why the sharia is accepted as the Islamic law.--Tomvasseur (talk) 20:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Non-Muslims section

I find this section quite terribly point-of-viewal. It'd be nice if someone could rewrite it and use sources instead of personal opinions. I'm not an expert on the issue but I think some of the main things about the treatment of Dhimmis are missed, like that Sharia law normally doesn't apply to them, and that they are instead encouraged to be judged by judges of their own religion, applying the laws of their own community; as well as their payment of the jizya being the non-Muslim equivalent of the Muslim zakat, and their being free from military service. I also don't think quoting the same verse twice in 8 lines of text is really necessary, and I doubt that dhimmi means guilty. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.85.103 (talk) 23:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Gay contemporary issues should be changed to Gay executions and torture

I wrote the following below for that section but it was deemed vandalism. It seems there's a reluctance to accept the truth on the part of the person in charge of the article. You might want to take the one below as a more informative and truthful article.

"Gross human rights violations

Gay executions and torture

   Main article: Homosexuality and Islam

Sharia law may be considered as one of the world's most homophobic legal system with regards to the complete lack of decriminalisation laws (with executions and punishments commonplace), non-existent anti-discrimination laws, no incitement to hatred laws (Hate crime) neither does it have provision for Same-sex unions or same-sex marriage. It does not recognise fundamental Human rights based on sexual-orientation. In fact, many Western countries now recognise the right of gay people from Iran to claim asylum in Europe and the US as a result of the 2005 execution of two gay minors(children) Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni. The following countries prescribe the death penalty for homosexuality: Iran, UAE, Sudan, Nigeria, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Somalia.

The current President of Iran has said that there are no gays in Iran, a statement which provoked horror and outrage accross the world. Some gay Iranians have successfully applied for asylum in Western countries and their stories are being retold in national and international media and politicians taking up their cause. Although, sex-change operations are legal in Iran, many believe sex-changes are being exploited by the Iranian government to convert gays into something more acceptable to an extremely conservative Islamic society (Be Like Others).

The highly-respected European Court of Human Rights ruled that Sharia was incompatible with the European Convention on Human Rights as it contravenes: (Article 8 - right to respect for private life) which guarantees certain inalienable rights to all people such as the right to have a private life and family life (including gay people) without State interference, (Article 14 - prohibition of discrimination based on sexual-orientation), (Article 3 - prohibition of torture(lashes), (Article 2 - right to life) and (Article 10 - right to freedom of expression)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.134.201.226 (talk) 10:55, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, no doubt, but the question is: how much does this actually have to do with shari'a? Claiming that shari'a "does not recognise fundamental Human rights based on sexual-orientation" is strictly speaking true, but then shari'a does not really have a concept of "human rights" comparable to the post-Enlightenment Western idea, only of man's duties to society and to God. The antics of the president of Iran have precious little to do with the matter in hand. I would also point out that, while homosexual activity is illicit under the shari'a, the prescribed penalties differ from one school of jurisprudence to another. 131.111.220.6 (talk) 09:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Categories/topics

There are four categories of Islamic law:

• Ibadah (laws concerning religious duties)
• Mu'amelat (laws concerning transactions)
• Munakehat (civil law)
• Uqubat (laws concerning punishment)

Source:Farhad Nomani and Ali Rahnema. Islamic Economic systems, 1994, p. 25-7.

In the future I shall organize the article under such a system.Bless sins (talk) 05:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

map

is it possible to create a map where it says which countries or regions use the sharia? As for Aceh in Indonesia for example, what the status is there. Mallerd (talk) 17:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Nicely POV'ed article

That's a nice job that's been done here to portray the Sharia as almost the best thing since sliced bread. Reading this, one would almost welcome it in their society! It's just too bad this article has almost no relation with real life, and how it's being applied in Islam cultures. Such a shame. Elfguy (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for commenting on the article. If there's additional material you'd like to see included feel free to add it (along with references). Euryalus (talk)

I second Elfguy's observations. This article reeks of apologetic bias. Kmanoj (talk) 07:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The modern Islamic law section contains plenty of criticism of Sharia as it is now practiced in Islamic countries. If that's the case, then should I assume that you are referring to the classical Islamic law section rather than the modern section? The article makes a clear distinction between Sharia as it is now practiced in Islamic countries and Islamic law as it was practiced in the classical period. There's no need to drag modern politics into the medieval section, if that is what you're trying to suggest. Jagged 85 (talk) 22:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Be WP:Bold. correct it if you feel the need. Lihaas (talk) 00:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

This one is a nice article literally putting all the facets on the top which one can glance with minimum efforts. Nice work team.124.30.235.62 (talk) 10:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)Maddy,India

semi lock

should this page needs be semi locked with its apparent controversy and vandalism. at least for awhile? http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Talk:Sharia&action=history Lihaas (talk) 17:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Addition by User: 59.93.178.154

The term Sharia in Arabic means "way" or "path to the water source". Sharia is the body of Islamic religious law—the legal framework within which the public and private aspects of life are regulated based on Islamic principles of jurisprudence and for Muslims living outside the domain. Sharia deals with many of the important aspects of everyday life— politics, economics, banking, business, contracts, family, sexuality, hygiene, and social issues. Sharia does not consist of any static set of laws. Sharia is rather a system, which helps us understand how law ought to serve humanity, a consensus of the unified spirit, based on the Qur'an (the religious text of Islam), hadith (sayings and doings of Muhammad and his companions), Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (reasoning by analogy) and centuries of debate, interpretation and precedent. Most Sunni Muslims follow Hanafi, Hanbali, Maliki or Shafii, while most Shia Muslims follow the jaafari school of thought and are considered Twelvers. Historical Origin—The Islamic law pivots around the sacred teachings of God and the pious acts and holy sayings of His Prophet, Muhammad; therefore, sharia, Islamic law, is founded on the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Interestingly, sharia was not fully developed at the time of Muhammad's death, but rather it evolved around the Muslim community or Ummah through which it would serve. Geographical Origin—Sharia began its formation in the deserts of Arabia about 1,400 years ago when Islam was born. At that time, a sense of community did not exist. Life in the desert was typically nomadic and tribal. However, Islam challenged this restless nomadic ideology and gathered all those who professed their faith to Islam under the umbrella of the Ummah. Notably, Islam was not just a religion but a way of life. So, to transform those who were once enemies into neighbors, laws had to be instilled and thus the doctrines of Sharia took root. All Muslims are judged by Sharia. After the death of Muhammad, Sharia continued to undergo fundamental changes, beginning with the reigns of caliphs Abu Bakr (632-34) and Umar (634-44) in which many important decision making matters were brought into the attention of the Prophet's closest comrades for consultation. In AD 662, during the reign of Mu'awiya b. Abu Sufyan, life went through an urban transformation and ceased to be nomadic any longer. Consequently, it created matters that were not originally covered by Islamic law. Islamic private international law had to be created because of the vast Muslim conquests and maritime explorations. Elaborate rules for private international law regarding issues, such as contracts and property, family relations and child custody, legal procedure and jurisdiction, religious conversion, and the return of aliens to an enemy country from the Islamic world, were developed. Departing significantly from the previously practiced Roman and Byzantine maritime laws Islamic law also made commendable contributions to international admiralty law. These included Muslim sailors being paid a fixed wage “in advance” with an understanding that they would owe money in the event of desertion or malfeasance.

Removed from main article space as apperred to be duplication and unref - I leave it to editors to sort our benjicharlton (talk) 05:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Sharia For Muslim minorities in non-Muslim countries

The United Kingdom is introducing Sharia courts in five cities with sizeable Muslim populations. These will run alongside the conventional judicial system and rule on issues within Muslim communities. This needs to be added to the article, as it has major implications on the spread of Islam - and what does it mean for people who have converted away from Islam, which is their right under European law?--MartinUK (talk) 09:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

You could add a sub-section dealing with this topic under the "Contemporary issues" section. Regards, Jagged 85 (talk) 01:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

thorougly cited, of course. Lihaas (talk) 01:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Common Law and Shari'a

I do not buy the assertion that English Common Law( I think this is ok to leave English law, because they never had Laws but laws of the Romans) -- let alone the law of Trusts and so on -- was borrowed from or influenced by shari'a. For one thing, the Common Law in its infancy was clearly 'at least' contemporary with King Arthur, who predates Mohammed by about half a century. For another, many elements of shari'a may be found in tribal legal traditions worldwide -- e.g. among the Hebrew nomadic herdsmen, the legal doctrine laid out in Exodus 21ff -- which resemble ECL in a number of ways, the most notable being that most property crimes are regarded as matters moderns would call "civil" rather than "criminal" -- the latter category being reserved for crimes against the unity of the tribe, blasphemy and so on.

Humans seem to have an inherent sense of fairness, along with a sense of what is required to hold the tribe together on a planet where most of the world not covered with ice is inhabited by tigers and hostile tribes and sea monsters and elephants and such. This is reflected in ancient legal systems from the Celts to Rome to the Navajo; it is not surprising that we find echoes of it among the ancient Arabs.

-- Craig Goodrich 68.58.135.168 (talk) 05:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I strongly suspect the post above is correct. While I don't know enough about the history of law to edit, the article gives a strong feeling of having been taken over by tangential fringe theories to which verrrrry long sections are devoted. for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Comparisons_with_common_law In short, it's a mess. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:02, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Human rights

the "Human rights" sections doesn't have much to do with Human rights in the conventional sense. What does "successor" and "democratic participation" have to do with this? Lihaas (talk) 00:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Article needs work

Below is a sentence from another wikipedia article concerning Sharia:

Victims of private crimes, such as murder or rape, can exercise a right to retribution (Qisas) or decide to accept "blood money" (Diyyah or Talion Law).

The idea that murder is a "private crime" and what a "private crime" is ought to be covered in any wikipedia article on sharia, but its particuarly important for articles written for non-Muslim cultures, such as this english-language article. Until recently sharia concepts such as "private crime" were completely alien to English-speaking countries/cultures and english-speaking/reading people. Such people are likely to be looking for and expecting to find information in this article on stuff like "private crimes" vs. crimes that violate the rights of god, on the different categories and reasons for them in Sharia law.

What do they get? A very long article full of unlikely explanations of how English common law is related to sharia; how no one need worry that hands and feet or heads will be amputated unnecessarily as Sharia punishment and other apologia.

This article is not very useful to the general public or anyone else. It needs major changes. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Sharia incompatable with Human rights

The House of Lords has said that Sharia is incompatable with Human rights. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/23/religion-islam Discuss!^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Human rights are preserved in Islam, Sharia has the principle of Justice. So for Execusion: If someone takes a life, then his life should be spared. That is only Just for human nature.This will minimize crimes. An eye for An eye, and Tooth for a Tooth is a principle in Islam.

Sharia Law perserves the Human race from being lost due to human factors.. such as Being gay may actually cause the los of human race. Gay people will have less human, therefore the human race will turn gay and not become productive any more. More gay crimes will happen such as rapping of kids that are adopted by gay couples because they are not thier parents. If gay is in the genes, so is violent person. why would it be ok to be gay if you have gay gene, but can not be a free criminal if you happen to have that gene. Human rights is created by humans or westerners that do not know about the east or the middle east or thier cultures.

-being gay doesnt mean you rape children, it means you like people of the same sex, rapping children is done by perverts which could be anyone and which is wrong-but has nothing to do with the average homosexual. Being gay and being violent are completely different. Gay people are just like everyone else except they have a particular sexual orientation. This does not harm anyone else, why should i care if someone i know is gay? As long as he -like any heterosexual- doesn't steal or do something violent etc. then there is no problem. As to gay people reducing the population... there not a bloody plague, for one thing its pretty hard for a gay person to spread any form of gay 'gene' that may exist as self-evidently they are gay, by talking to/befriending a gay person you do not contaminate yourself or 'become gay', you cannot become gay, it is something you are or you are not and its not your fault either way and shouldnt be a problem either way.

Whats the difference between racism and the homophobia you propogate? Coming back to the article, the human rights the House of laws are refering to protect gay people as much as anyone else and so Sharia law is imcompatible with it, if you wish to believe that people dont have the right to be whatever sexual orientation they are then so be it. Although i would hope you would realise that this is wrong, and that the 'Human rights [that are] created by humans or westerners] are just simply human rights and are correct and just. (talk) 23:03, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

More apologia

The following was recently deleted from the article:

IslamOnline Shariah researchers conclude that Islam defends freedom of speech and fosters freedom of ideas.<ref>"[http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503544604&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaE Islam Versus Terrorism]", ''IslamOnline'', 14/Sep/2005.</ref>

The citation leads to a short article answering the question What does Islam say about terrorism and the fight for religion?

A short section in the article says:

Islam Defends Tolerance And Freedom of Speech:

Islam is a religion, which fosters freedom of life, ideas and thought. It has forbidden tension and conflict among people, calumny, suspicion and even having negative thoughts about another individual.

To force anyone to believe in a religion or to practice it is against the spirit and essence of Islam. Because it is necessary that faith be accepted with free will and conscience. Of course, Muslims may urge one another to keep the moral precepts taught in the Qur'an, but they never use compulsion. In any case, an individual cannot be induced to the practice of religion by either threat or offering him a worldly privilege.

That's all it says.

Does this really qualify by wikipedia regs as a proper source? --BoogaLouie (talk) 19:51, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

13 yr old rape victim stoned to death

In Somalia 1000 people enjoyed watching a live Snuff film of a 13 yr old rape victim be stoned in a football stadium. -->http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/11/01/amnesty.rape.somalia.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

This is due to the fact of Media and Stoning of a victim is not Islamic, but it is a culture in Somalia. This is Media and can not trust media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mralmawri (talk • contribs) 08:59, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

"Stoning of a victim is not Islamic, but it is a culture in Somalia" I would laugh at you but your attitude is going to get the next girl stoned to death. Until muslims who "claim" this is not islamic get of thier ass and do something about it, very few people will believe you. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 16:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Raped girl, 13, stoned to death in Mogadishu

I'm not sure where (or whether) this belongs in this article, but here's a news story i just stumbled across reporting that A 13-year-old girl who said she had been raped was stoned to death on on October 27 in Mogadishu, Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants

Those Islamic Militants are not really the islamic jurisdicts, and also this is just news not facts. This happens in may third world countries and does not have to do with islam..

At the time of Mohamed(PBUH), a woman came and told him she is pregnant from adultry, he let her go and told her to repent... not until she was really wanting to die after she gave birth to her kid about 2 years after... So this is a cultural thing, not islamic to prosecute them like that.: Raped girl, 13, stoned to death, South Africa: News24, 1 November 2008, retrieved 2008-11-02. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 06:36, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

See above. And yes it should be in as it is a prime example of Sharia in action. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 07:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

A later report on this by the BBC says, "She was asked several times to review her confession but she stressed that she wanted Sharia law and the deserved punishment to apply, ..." -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:48, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Lol, using a quote from the article that misles you into thinking she actually wanted Sharia law. I just read this same BBC article and was horrified Sharia Law approves of this -- except it doesn't apparently she was too young to be punished this way... and the next quote illustrates Sharia's opinion of mercy: "They said: 'We will do what Allah has instructed us'. She said: 'I'm not going, I'm not going. Don't kill me, don't kill me.'" 124.138.185.194 (talk) 01:11, 5 November 2008 (UTC)(Sorry, forgot to login Darkpoet (talk) 01:12, 5 November 2008 (UTC))

In the segment about 4 men witnesses required for rape victims

The current article reads:

"In instances of rape Sharia law require for an allegation to be validated, victims must have four Muslim-Male witnesses to the crime or else the victims risk being charged with fornication or adultery making a rejected allegation a potential death sentence for the victim."

But the cited source from CNN reads:

"Another factor that impedes victims from coming forward is some interpretations of Sharia, or Islamic law. Some authorities rule for a rape to be validated, victims must have four witnesses to the crime. If not, the victims can be charged with fornication or adultery."

The phrase "Some interpretations", and "Some Authorities" is conspicuously missing from the wikipedia article, replaced with a categorical statement that includes all Sharia law as though the matter is unanimously approved by all authorities. I will rewrite this statement to better reflect what the cited source claims, rather than what the writer of the source chose. In addition, the same cited source does not mention at all the "risk" of a "death sentence" thus it will be omitted.

Medfreak (talk) 21:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Sports and wife beating

Is the section on sports really necessary? It is not sourced and of little relevance. The article should deal more with the main principles and issues concerning Sharia than give the detail of the status of archery and horses in Sharia... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.247.85.103 (talk) 18:58, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, There is a long discussion on wife beating in the "penalties" section. It is not introduced correctly and the discussion is much too long. It should rather be put with the other human rights issues and largely shortened to say beating one's wife lightly is in theory allowed under this and that condition, but is nevertheless discouraged. I'm not sure it should be mentioned at all in fact, as I don't think the declaration of human rights actually says something about beating one's wife.

Right to bear arms

The WP article Right to keep and bear arms claims that "Under Sharia in Islam, all men are policemen and soldiers. All men have the right to bear arms. Jews, Christians, and women are prohibited from bearing arms."

Although there are seemingly references for this, I remain sceptical of them. The singling out of Jews and Christians does not sound plausible to me. I would ask that any Sharia expert has any comment about this and if possible to give more scholarly sources either in support of the claims or else a refutation of them as appropriate. --Hauskalainen 18:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Is this article solely based off what Shariah law supposedly says or what is actually practiced? In the Ottoman Empire, which was dominated by Shariah Law, non-Muslims and especially Jews were not allowed to own weapons. I think we need to focus more on the realities of Shariah and not gift-wrap it. Cheers! Wikifan12345 (talk) 05:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that documenting what Sharia law really says is in no way "gift wrapping" it. What a law says and how it is interpreted are two seperate issues and they should be addressed seperately. I suggest this article focus primarily on what Sharia says, and then include a section (with perhaps a link to a new article) on different ways Sharia is interpreted or practiced.---Puff (talk) 07:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Good question. Either way we need a more ready reference for this claim or else anoriginal source for the claim in the citation we do have.--Hauskalainen (talk) 13:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Unstandardized Spelling

I've read a few articles on Islam and have found that several different spellings of "Qur'an" are used in different articles, including several different spellings in this article alone. I suggest that a standards romanization be used in Wiki articles to help avoid confusion and facilitate editing. I'd start making changes myself but I don't have a lot of time, and something like this could more easily be taken care of by a simple search & replace bot. Also, the Qur'an isn't the only victim of this lack of standardization, so others should be sought out and corrected as well. ---Puff (talk) 07:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Christian equivalent of Sharia

There is a related branch of law which is structurally close to canon law, but which only becomes applied when the Roman Catholic Church and/or Eastern Orthodox Church is selected as the State religion. This has not happened in a long time, although it was the de facto situation in certain South American States until the late 1980s. This branch of law is called Civil ecclesiastic law, which is roughly the Christian equivalent of Sharia and/or Halakha. There is a stub here on WP-FR [1] which might be translated into WP-EN if sufficient and correct sources on the topic can be found. ADM (talk) 08:46, 13 March 2009 (UTC)