Talk:Pentecost

49 or 50 days

This article says Pentecost is the same as Whitsun and that it is 50 days after Easter. 50 days after Easter is necessarily a Monday, but Whitsun is a Sunday, 49 days after Easter. What's going on? 218.138.251.110 12:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)Andrew

The count of 50 is inclusive of Easter Sunday. Pentecost is, literally, the fiftieth day. MishaPan 16:32, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

It is still 49 days after Easter Sunday. Just as Easter Monday is 1 day after Easter Sunday. Etymology does not change the meaning of the word after. After literally means after. The Jewish festival was 50 days after (or counted inclusively) but wasn't tied to Sundays as the Christian calendar, no? Jagdfeld (talk) 10:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

u should b stupid —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.41.34.243 (talk) 19:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Whitsun is the seventh day after 'Easter' or 50th day inclusive. Pentecost, however, is the day after the seventh weekly sabbath after or coinciding with the Passover, and so is always on a Sunday. (Although in any article, one would have to include the controversy about calculating it's date, as by the Talmud system it can be other days of the week and is a bit more varied.)

The Apostles kept Pentecost several times - chances are they would have been counting by the jewish system. (It would be wierd, after all, for the Jews to be counting to Pentecost, and the disciples to be counting to Whitsun, and so to be gathering on completely different days!) Jesus was not ressurected on the first day of Passover, so invariably Easter cannot be the same start date to calculate Pentecost.

Neither, however, is Passover unrelated. Orthodox Easter is much closer than the celebration of Easter in the West, as far as it's relation to Passover - but neither is going to give an exact date of 'Pentecost' every year.

(And which system is used when picking the day for Whitsun, Orthodox Easter or Western Easter?)

The articles should not be combined, as they are celebrated on different days - even if the articles may mention each other and Whitsun may be referred to as Pentecost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.204.79 (talk) 10:04, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Immature vandalism

There was some very immature vandalism on the page, where someone had added the (misspelt) phrase "Jeasus was the first hippy". I have deleted it. Go and play childish jokes elsewhere. Pftaylor 10:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Day of the Pentergram

I have removed the reference to 'The Day of the Pentergram'. Firstly, I don't think that 'pentergram' is a word. It is not in the Oxford or Merriam-Webster dictionaries and it does not appear on Wikipedia. The only occurrence of it in conection with the Pentecost that shows up on Google is on this page. I suspect that what was meant here was 'pentagram', but I can see no other reference to 'the day of the pentagram' or any reliable connection between the Penecost and the pentgram.

If anyone wants to put it back, please provide some evidence of the connection. Seth ze 00:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup needed

Yikes. This little article needs a lot of work. Mkmcconn 06:26 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

better Mkmcconn 19:58, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Remove cleanup tag?

I believe that this article may be sufficiently cleaned up now that we can remove the clean-up tag. If a few others could read over it and make sure that you're happy with it too, then that would be great. -- Jarich 10:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC) Yo yo yo

I didn't read the entire article; however, I came here to comment on how clear it is. I've been surfing Christian terminology (like ecclesiology, catholicism, orthodoxy, etc.) and most of the articles are so complicated that they left me more confused than when I began. I still don't have a basic understanding of most of what I read. This article alone clarified this term to the point where I believe I have a basic understanding now, finally, of Pentecost and Pentecostal. If it needs cleaning up, that would be for technicalities only, as the article is already very clear and helpful. Please spay/neuter; it saves lives! 06:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Pentecost traditions

Where was the Pentecost service that traditionally had a (paper? white silk?) dove descend on a ring sliding down a long slanting wire? Wetman 20:58, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The {} sign/s

One or more of the sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:23, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Passover & Pentecost

In terms of actual Christian theology this is weak. I teach a second grade class that already knows the ideas here. Is this written for adult Christians? Show me the words of Jesus or the apostles about this. This is the second most important event in Christianity after the advent of Jesus. Is this actually all you can say about it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Engr.student (talk • contribs) 11:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Who is "you" ? If you feel this needs more, please go ahead and add it. -- Beardo 03:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sam, just wondering what the point was in trying to disambiguate Passover from Pentecost. Passover or Pesach is the Jewish holiday, and Shavuot occurs 7 weeks later. Pentecost is the Christian holiday that occurs seven weeks after Easter. I'm sure you know all this, so I'm simply curious what your intentions were. JFW | T@lk 17:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pentacost used to redirect there [1]. Since you opposed the disambig, I redirected it to Pentecost, and placed a disambig there. I find your reverts and the reasoning for them unhelpful. Sam Spade 17:43, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing the redirect. It obviates the need for disambiguation at the top of Passover. JFW | T@lk 17:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We still havn't resolved the issue of your reverts regarding the disambig header @ Pentecost however... Sam Spade 20:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the reader should be able to "find what they are looking for", but the previous version was misleading and incorrect.

Old version:

Note: This article is mostly about the Christian holiday of Pentecost. For the Jewish holiday of "Pentecost" see the articles on Shavuot, or passover

My version:

The name of the Jewish holiday Shavuot is commonly translated as "Pentecost".

There is only one small difference between these disambiguation lines, namely the mention of Passover. The article itself makes it abundantly clear that Pentecost is a Christian holiday, and as I stated quite clearly in my edit summary, the term "pentecost" only bears distant causal relationship and should certainly not be disambiguated at the top of the article. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to resolve, Jack. JFW | T@lk 21:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pentacost used to redirect to passover. Now it redirects to pentecost. Seems obvious to me that a link to passover be handy in the disambig. I agree that may not be perfectly precise, but disambigs arn't ment to be. They are rather a resource to help people find the article they are looking for. Sam Spade 22:03, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, the pentacost redirect was erroneous, and we should not be promulgating that error. This page is about Ford, the American car manufacturer. See also Mitsubishi. Can we please just leave this alone now? JFW | T@lk 22:21, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whit?

There are contradictory statements about the origins of the term "whitsunday" in the introduction and body of this article. I am not sufficiently learned in the subject to judge which is correct, but it is a rather glaring error.

User:65.96.215.51, you must be referring to this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/enwiki/w/index.php?title=Pentecost&diff=15623538&oldid=15569099 by User:195.93.21.67. Thank you for pointing this out. I'll go get help from Wikipedia:Pages needing attention/Religion. -- PFHLai 00:27, 2005 September 8 (UTC)

Version of the Bible

I'm just wondering if use of the NIV would be better than the version used for the scripture verses here. The NIV, in my opinion, is alot more "readable" and easier to understand. So I'd like to change the verses to NIV for clarity purposes. Are there any objections? (Cabin Tom 19:58, 22 January 2006 (UTC))

What is the present version? Is it King James? --Sumple (Talk) 00:27, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Present version appears to be King James. No objections to changing it from me. -- Jarich 10:49, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

To: Cabin Tom --- The NIV is a "Conversationally Edited" Bible version, and is not an accurate translation. If you have difficulty reading and understanding a genuine translation of the Bible (Like the KJV), get yourself a New American Standard Version (NASV), for that is the most technically accurate translation into modern American English.

The NASV is a linguist's joy and an etymologist's delight.

Read the Preface to the NASV to discover the motivation and rationale responsible for its production, because it is directly related to the appearance of the NIV in the 1950s... And, it's a good story. --Hankdm 07:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Chode

I've just removed a link to Chode since it was, ahem, rather inappropriate. I can't find any mention of this term in a theological context so maybe someone would like to create an article for it, or just remove the reference (just "50 days after Easter" is fine surely?). Hairy Dude 13:47, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

49 days after Easter. (7 weeks). It's the 50th day (that means Pentecost in Greek), if Easter is the 1st. And the 8th Sunday (if Easter is the first). --Lagarto 15:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Whitsun

It is still contradictory as to whether Whitsun is white or not. And I think the bold Whitsun should be mentioned in the first paragraph. --Henrygb 22:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Most sources (including Meriam Webster) give white. -- Beardo 07:00, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

As noted first sentance in :

"The name "Whit" does not come from use of white robes/garments worn at baptism. This tradition of wearing white started after Pentecost was called Whit Sunday. The word "whit" comes from the word "wisdom", one of the gifts of the Spirit at Pentecost. Hence the varying names for Pentecost in other countries, individually signifying various gifts, attributes and signs of the Holy Spirit. ( F Noy -Dorchester)"

conflicts with other parts of this page.

The second sentance - what names in other languages. Anyone have examples.

And this "F Noy - Dorchester" - is that a reference. The only F Noy I could find in a google search linked to Dorchester is a firm of car repairers.

-- Beardo 14:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Brewer has:

Whitsunday.

White Sunday. The seventh Sunday after Easter, to commemorate the “Descent of the Holy Ghost” on the day of Pentecost. In the Primitive Church the newly-baptised wore white from Easter to Pentecost, and were called alba’ti (white-robed). The last of the Sundays, which was also the chief festival, was called emphatically Domin’ica in Albis (Sunday in White). 1

Another etymology is Wit or Wisdom Sunday, the day when the Apostles were filled with wisdom by the Holy Ghost. 2

This day Wit-sonday is cald. For wisdom and wit serene fald, Was zonen to the Apostles as this day. Cambr. Univer. MSS., Dd. i. 1, p. 234. (Compare Witten-agemote.) 3

We ought to kepe this our Witsonday bicause the law of God was then of the Holy Wyght or Ghost deliured gostly vnto vs.—Taverner (1540).

This day is called Wytsonday because the Holy Ghost brought wytte and wysdom into Christis disciples … and filled them full of ghostly wytte.—In die Pentecostis (printed by Wynken de Worde).

http://www.bartleby.com/81/17457.html

-- Beardo 14:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Whitsunday?

It appears that there have been some edits that removed all references to Whitsunday until you get to the middle of the article: "...elsewhere in Italy Whitsunday is called Pascha rosatum." I can only surmise that Whitsunday is the same as Pentecost because a search on Whitsunday redirected me to the this article, but there needs to be some language explaining it. Rmesler 21:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Now included a mention in the first paragraph. -- Beardo 01:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Concerning: "When is Pentecost?"

The Wikipedia section "When is Pentecost?" begins: "According to Church tradition... "

However, would that one prefer to eschew mere Church tradition and adhere, instead, to an authentic Biblical date for Pentecost:

There is only one (1) genuinely authentic Pentecost, annually!

There is not a separate "Christian" Pentecost on a different date than the Biblical date God has established for the Hebrew High Holy Day of Pentecost (Shavu'ot).

On the first "Christian" Pentecost, the correct date was determined using the Hebrew calendar, it was neither calculated from nor associated with pagan Easter, for the correct annual date of Pentecost is not connected to the date of Easter.

All of the events surrounding the Pentecost of the New Testament (Acts Of The Apostles, Chapter 2) occurred on a major Hebrew High Holy Day, an Annual High Sabbath Day, which is a "Pilgrimage" Sabbath. (About which, see: Ex. 23:14-17; Lev. Chapter 23; Deu. 16:16)

In the Wikipedia > Pentecost section "When is Pentecost?"... [2]

Pentecost was on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - Not on May 15, as stated in Wikipedia.

Pentecost will be on Sunday, June 8, 2008 - Not on May 11, as stated in Wikipedia.

Pentecost will be on Sunday, June 11, 2016 - Not on May 15, as stated in Wikipedia.

Remember, there is not a traditional "Christian" Pentecost on some different date, there is only a "False" Pentecost on some different date.

Pentecost always occurs on a Sunday, 50 days from the Hebrew's Feast of First Fruits. (Not 50 days from Easter!)

The Roman Catholics established the "50 days from Easter" date 300 years after Christ Jesus, around the 4th century, CE; while God established the "50 days from the Hebrew's Feast of First Fruits" date around the 15th century, BCE.

Whom should one believe to accurately determine the date for Pentecost? God, maybe?

The Feast of First Fruits is always on the Sunday following The Passover.

And, the Sunday following The Passover is when Christ Jesus was resurrected.

And, The Passover is when Christ Jesus was crucified.

But, occasionally (i.e. 2005, 2008, 2016, et. al.), Easter is capricious and falls a month before The Passover. About which, see:

During any given century, a capricious Easter occurs a month before The Passover about 20% of the time. And, Easter was capricious before there was a Christ, or Christians. Easter has been capricious since its institution over 5,000 years ago.

When a Christian counts 50 days from Easter in hope of determining the date for Pentecost, in those years when a capricious Easter occurs a month before The Passover (2008), a false date for Pentecost will occur about a month before the authentic Biblical Pentecost. A month before the God-ordained, God-established Pentecost (Shavu'ot) on the Hebrew calendar.

In 2008, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, and most all other Christian denominations that focus so strongly (and wrongly!) on Easter will be falsely and meaninglessly celebrating the Christian Pentecost on May 11, 2008, while the genuinely authentic, God-ordained, God-established Pentecost is 28 days later, on June 8, 2008.

With this information, why would anyone care to celebrate the Christian Pentecost, in 2008, on a false and meaningless date?

And, you might wish to ask yourself: "How could Christ Jesus be resurrected from the dead on any Easter (2008) that occurs a month before the day of His crucifixion, death and burial on The Passover?" To be resurrected before having died would be one of the greatest miracles, ever! --Hankdm 08:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting perspective, but the Bible teaches that Christians no longer live under the Law, but under Grace (John 1:17, Romans 6:14). The Old Testament holydays and new moons no longer apply to believing Christians (Colossians 2:16). The oldest heresy in Christianity is the heresy of Judaizing, and it was condemned by the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:15–20 ). The calculation of Pascha (unfortunately, in English called by the pagan name of Easter) is based upon the Jewish Passover. The Jews themselves have changed the method of calculating Passover since the first century. So, technically, no one uses the strictly biblical method of sighting the new moon. The calculation of Pentecost is hardly "capricious." The observation of Pentecost is the same as in New Testament times in that it is 50 days after Passover, which for Christians is the Resurrection of Christ. Just a note regarding the celebration of Christ's Resurrection "a month before the day of His crucifixion"—although the rule no longer prevails in the West, Eastern Christianity still continues to hold to the ancient tradition of not celebrating Pascha before the Jewish Passover. MishaPan 19:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

How does one undo the vandalism? Dawn22 16:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed text

The following text was added by User:Hankdm in January to the Etymology section.

"PENTECOST" is the Greek word used (ca. BCE 270) in the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the Old Testament) in reference to the Jewish holiday of Shavuot (also known as the "Feast Of Weeks"), which is celebrated every year in the late spring.--Hankdm 12:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it. Please feel free to integrate the information contained here into the article.

Jarich 05:32, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Major revision needed

This article does need a thorough revision. Pentecost is definiticely NOT one of the three major Mosaic feasts. This is a misleading statement. It is a Christian Holiday devoted to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which is also understood as foundation of the Christian Church (by the vast majority of Christian tradition). Its date is always the 50th day after Christian Easter in any count.

The event remembered in the New Testament (St. Luke`s Acts chapter 2) is linked to the Jewish holiday celebrated now as Shavuot which may be called one of the Mosaic feasts. Luke`s dating thus refers to a meeting of the disciples of Christ on that Jewish holiday. It is called the "50th" day by Luke in accordance with Lev. 23,16. Since the Christian Easter count departed from the Jewish calendar the Christian holiday of Pentecost is no more related to Shavuot - thus at least for the last 16 centuries. To the best of my knowledge the topics of shavuot have never played a role in Christian Pentecoste liturgy. It may well be that in the days of Luke "Pentekoste" was an expression among Greek speaking Jews for the Jewish holiday of Shavuot - I am not aware of a historical source for that outside the Christian Tradition.

Thus also the reference to the Strongs Concordance in the first sentence -by itself absolutely correct- is strongly misleading. This is an exegetical explanation for Luke's usage of the term - not a reference to the actual Christian holiday.

Pentecost was origianlly a Jewish feast, celebrating the reception of the Law on Mount Sinai. The "topics of Shavuot" have, indeed played a role in the Christian Pentecost liturgy, and are mentioned in the Eastern Orthodox services for the Feast. Also, the Jewish practice of decorating the Synagogue in greenery was carried directly into Christian practice in both East and West (though now, sadly, it has been lost among the majority of Western Christians). Among Eastern Christians, dairy products (see article on Shavuot) are eaten every day of Pentecost week, even on Wednesday and Friday, which are normally fast days on which dairy products are forbidden. As for the practice of referring to Shavuot as "Pentekoste", see the Jewish Encyclopedia article entitled "Pentecost." MishaPan 16:51, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no time for an edit war that's why I am not changing the text right away - the article has been edited around the present mixup for too long by too many people to expect them to accept a straight rewrite. Besides my English is not too sure. But as a reference for information the article is of little value as it stands because there is too much mixup in it. --Kipala 19:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd added {{cleanup}} and come shit to explain, when I found this message. I'd add to it that the article is a mess in more ways than one. First, its language is unencyclopædic (lots of "we read that" and "it's interesting to note", etc.), and is PoV (it's clearly written from the perspective of Christian believers, who seem for the most part also to be unaware of any but the most literal and straightforward Biblical interpretation). The structure of the article is odd (for example, "name and origin" at the beginning, as one would expect, but "etymology" right at the end...). The style of quotations is inconsistent, too. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 07:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Not sure how I should do this, or if I even need to with the current cleanup flag, but: I think the amount of info is great in this article (albeit some is likely POV and needs syntactical/grammatical editing), but where is practically ANY sourcing? By my count, there is all of one (1) reference, and it simply is an external link to the Online Etymology Dictionary. Any thoughts on how to fix this? or is it covered by the cleanup flagging? Thanks! JasonDUIUC 13:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that some PoV clean up might be in order, but if Mel Etitis feels the article needs other than "literal" interpretation of scripture, he should add it, if he has reliable sources. A reasoned discussion of the scholarly approach to the text would be welcome. But I think he should note that the article is as much about the Christian holy day as about the biblical text, and the holy day presupposes faith in the literal accuracy of the text. He should also realize that perfunctory dismissal of the literal interpretation is itself non-NPOV. MishaPan 18:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

First, the fact of the holy day presupposes nothing about the literal accuracy of the text; those who celebrate may (though frequently don't) hold such beliefs, but that should have no effect on the article. Secondly, as it's impossible to interpret the text literally, because it contains clear contradictions, and as no reputable scholar accepts a literal interpretation, concentrating on non-literal interpretations is the NPoV approach (though I should point out that I didn't in fact suggest anything like this in what I said, so it's something of a straw man). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 12:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Your phrase, "those who celebrate may (though frequently don't) hold such beliefs" is an entirely unfounded presupposition. Have you ever been to a church service? Do you honestly believe that the majority of people there don't believe what is being taught? Why would they waste their time? Another problem is that you seem to restrict your use of the word "scholar" exclusively to those who follow the critical school. There are hundreds of well-reasoned and intelligent biblical scholars who also happen to be believers. Does the fact of their faith make them disreputable in your opinion? If so, that is not NPoV. I would, however, be interested in hearing what "clear contraditions" you see in the biblical text concerning Pentecost. "Concentrating on the non-literal interpretation" is, by definition, not NPoV. Providing both sides of an argument, without favoring one over the other, is NPoV. MishaPan 14:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

You have a peculiar view that believers aren't critical — a quick look at just about any theology department (possibly outside the U.S. — I don't know about them) would disabuse you of that opinion.

NPoV doesn't mean giving every side equal billing; it means giving each side billing consonant with its status and position. If the non-literal interpretation is the majority view, then it gets more attention, and vice versa. That's determined by the literature, and I'd say that the literature on non-literal interpretations clearly predominates.

With regard to my position: I was brought up a Catholic and went to a religious school. I'm now an atheist. I spend a great deal of my time teaching the philosophy of religion, and have published in that field. I know many people on the Theology Faculty here at Oxford, both in my own College and in others. None of that is relevant, though (any more than would be my never having been to a church service, my going every day, my being a Muslim, a Mormon, or a Methodist, etc.).

As for the precise contradictions in this case: see John 20:22, which has Jesus giving the disciples the Holy Spirit. See also Ernst Haenchen's Acts of the Apostles: A Commentary (Westminster John Knox Press; 1971). --Mel Etitis (Talk) 14:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I apologize. I did not use the term "critical school" clearly. Of course there is no objection to approaching the biblical text in a scholarly manner. By "critical school" I was referring to the negative approach taken by some scholars who seem to think that "demythologizing" is a requirement incumbent upon all scholars who wish to be so called (and, by corollary, that any who do not demythologize the text are ipso facto not scholars). The irony that such scholars seem to miss is that their own slavish obedience to what their teachers have taught them makes them just as dogmatic as those scholars who approach the text from the perspective of faith. There is an academically unhealthy tendency among such scholars to simply dismiss out of hand any who disagree with them, no matter how well-reasoned their opponents' arguments may be. Thus, with all due respect, I must object to your assertion that "no reputable scholar accepts a literal interpretation" as being unfounded and unacademic. It certainly seems to be a gross exageration, and borders on prejudice. Regarding your statement that, "literature on non-literal interpretations clearly predominates," I think you'll agree that the weight of an argument is determined by quality and not by volume (and, if it were determined by volume, the sheer quantity of published academic work--in all shades of quality--clearly favours a literal interpretation). As for the seeming contradition of John 20:22, please see the paragraph I added below about St. Gregory the Great. With respect, MishaPan 19:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the tags from the article. I think they produced good results, but are no longer needed. Radu Comanescu 13:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid that there's much more to be done, from copy-editing to removing PoV and an unencyclopædic tone. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 14:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear Mel Etitis, I'm sorry that you are now an atheist. An atheist will always remove PoV from any text that does not harm Jesus, so I see no issue here. As for the so-called contradiction from John 20:22, the Greek words are Λάβετε πνευμα ‘άγιον, Labete pneuma hagion, Receive the Holy Spirit. And, do you see, that is exactly what happened at the Pentecost: the Apostles were able to receive the Holy Spirit. Best regards. Radu Comanescu 23:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

St Gregory the Great writes: "Why was the Holy Spirit first given to the disciples on earth [by Christ in John 20:22], and later sent from heaven [by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2], except that there are two precepts of love: of God and of neighbor? The gift of the Spirit on earth was to bring about love of neighbor, and the gift from heaven was to bring about love of God. Just as there is one love and two precepts, so there is one Spirit and two gifts." (Forty Gospel Homilies, Cistercian Studies: CXXIII, Tr. Dom David Hurst. Kalamazoo, MI: Cistercian Publications 1990, p. 202.) Others have interpreted the first giving (reception) of the Holy Spirit as limited to the Apostles and effecting their consecration for the sacramental ministry (it was by authority of this charism that they elected and consecrated Saint Matthias to the aposotlic ministry), and the second giving (descent) of the Holy Spirit as general and effecting the chrismation of the entire Christian community as it existed at that time in Jerusalem (by which all became members of the royal priesthood of believers, the charism being thenceforward bestowed through the laying-on of hands by the Apostles—vid. Acts 8:14–17, 19:2–6). (See Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky. Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, Platina, CA: St. Herman of Alaska Press 1984, p. 247.) MishaPan 19:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Of course John 20:22 speaks about a consecration based upon a charism (which is a supernatural gift granted by the Holy Spirit, hence the naming of the Holy Spirit by Jesus), but it is a preparation, too, for the theophany of the Pentecost. As in the days of Moses, near Mount Sinai, special preparation was required for humans that were to experience a theophany associated to a new level of the Revelation. On Mount Sinai, God revealed Himself as Yahweh, ruling - through Tôrâ - over the second level of the Revelation (during the first level, God had revealed Himself as El, Eloah, Elohim). At Pentecost, God reveals Himself as Abba, Father, highlighting - through the Holy Spirit - the role played by the Son in the great scenario of salvation. The level of Abba is the third level, preached and announced by Jesus, established by the Holy Spirit in the act of founding the visible Church. The Church is, in fact, in a certain way, the Tôrâ of the third level. Best regards (and I mean it). Radu Comanescu 12:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Unknown footnote tag

I removed the {{note|fn_1}} tag under Etymology. It doesn't point to anything, and I don't know what it is supposed to mean. If anyone knows (and can get it to do anything) they can restore it MishaPan 18:18, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Wish: "Shavuot" in alephbeth

In Name and origin:

"Pentecost" is derived from the Greek name for Shavuot,

Q: how is Shavuot spelled in Hebrew? Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 07:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It is spelled shin-bet-ain-vav-tav. In nikkud writing, these letters have some dots and dashes, indicating that the word must be spelled shabuot with vowels. During history, bet acquired the ability to express a "v", too; so now it needs a dagesh (a dot in its center) in order to indicate that it will be read "b". There is no dagesh in bet here, so we read the word shavuot. Radu Comanescu 08:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Added quick reference

I've just added the 2008 date for Pentecost to the top of the page, which should be helpful to the people (such as myself) who came to the page to see roughly when Pentecost is this year.

I am aware that the page duplicates this information in a table somewhat further down the page, but given the significance (Pentecost is a day, and therefore has a date, and is therefore rather central to Pentecost) I have added it as a mini-section at the top of the page.

I anticipate that as the years grow older that someone will post when the 2009, 2010 etc dates are.

87.194.49.123 (talk) 01:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge with Whitsun

The Whitsun article does not present sufficient information on its own. More information about Whitsun is presented on the Pentecost article than on its proper article. Whitsun should be merged into Pentecost. Neelix (talk) 20:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC) jesus was part of pentecost —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.212.154.234 (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. The Whitsun page is at present serving mostly as a disambiguation page for various songs, poems etc. What little information about Whitsun itself that is on the page can be put in the Pentecost introduction, but should also stay on the Whitsun page. The Whitsun page should also be marked as a disambiguation page. Jasper33 (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

They are alternate terms for the same thing; I think Whitsun should be merged in (and maybe more said about English Whitsun traditions). In the meantime I'm going to add the Whitsun page to "See Also."Yngvadottir (talk) 18:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Also disagree. The Whitsun page is really a disambig page, even if it is not classified as such. The link to the Pentecost article leads that page, and is sufficient for the disambiguation purpose. oknazevad (talk) 04:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Greek for hēmera

The first letter (η with an accent over it) shows up as a ? on my browser. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 12:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thioiie is not the Author of the book of Acts

I removed the refrence to "Thioiie author of the book of acts" and replaced with "The author of the book of acts"

The main reson is that the Author leaves this information out in the text itsself. Although tradition and early church citations indicate that Luke the Physician (Puals Companion) was the author of both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.188.59.225 (talk) 19:29, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

New Pentecost

There should perhaps be discussion within the article about the debated notion that the Second Vatican Council was a New Pentecost. [3] ADM (talk) 02:01, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Denmark

Removed "Many Danes, especially youths, do not know the meaning of Pentecost." because there was no source provided to back up this generalization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.81.116.33 (talk) 17:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)